Gaming: Five Levels is Too Much: Beta Review of Lineage 2

[HaemishM]

I imagine the fact that reading the quest text was like trying to decipher a screed in Mongoloid Moron about going to the bathroom in the dead of winter, it's no surprise that I talked to NPC's almost as little as I talked to the Retard Brigade oustide the walls killing dogs.

[Alluvian]

Heh, I understand that one.  For some reason I didn't have much problem reading the text though.  Pretty amazing they could not manage wordwrap.  Notepad can even manage wordwrap.

[schmoo]

I had no problem reading the window text, either.  But you didn't miss much, Haemish.

[HaemishM]

Example of the window quest text:

Hello adventurer I hope t
hat you like to kill woodland crea
tures who have never done you a
ny harm. Maybe you'd like the Jef
frey Dahmer weapons package as
your first skill choice. I don't know
why Dwarves have knee hair but t
here you go, and that's that. By th
e way, click on this yellow text her
e to find out more bullshit that me
ans absolutely nothing other than t
o tell you that you need to kill a ve
ritable shitton of dogs just to proce
eed!

I only wish that I was kidding.

[WayAbvPar]

Example of the window quest text:

Hello adventurer I hope t
hat you like to kill woodland crea
tures who have never done you a
ny harm. Maybe you'd like the Jef
frey Dahmer weapons package as
your first skill choice. I don't know
why Dwarves have knee hair but t
here you go, and that's that. By th
e way, click on this yellow text her
e to find out more bullshit that me
ans absolutely nothing other than t
o tell you that you need to kill a ve
ritable shitton of dogs just to proce
eed!

I only wish that I was kidding.

Sweet screenshot!

[waylander]

But I like more boobies!!!

Seriously, I don't know too many people who have tried this game and not said almos the same exact thing as you did in your review. Maybe if they get someone who didn't play EQ,DAOC,SWG,SB then they might find a customer who will tolorate a rehash of what's come before.

95% of the comments I've seen around the community from people or guilds that I respect has been negative about this game, and that's all it takes for me to not bother wasting my time with it.

[Alluvian]

Example of the window quest text:

Hello adventurer I hope t
hat you like to kill woodland crea
tures who have never done you a
ny harm. Maybe you'd like the Jef
frey Dahmer weapons package as
your first skill choice. I don't know
why Dwarves have knee hair but t
here you go, and that's that. By th
e way, click on this yellow text her
e to find out more bullshit that me
ans absolutely nothing other than t
o tell you that you need to kill a ve
ritable shitton of dogs just to proce
eed!

I only wish that I was kidding.

Yup, exactly like that.  You find that hard to read?  Other than how thin the windows were I never had much problem reading them or reading what you posted above for that matter.  Interesting.

None of this changes your general conclusions that the game sucks though.  I went to the website and looked up skills... You know that one button you got that did a power attack?  Besides the fact that you can start with a bow and use that power attack as well, you don't get anything else till level 20.  THEN, if you take warrior, you only get passive skills that improve your stats.  NO new buttons at all.  The other options gave you a whopping one new button and two passive skills.  As a knight for instance you could get the ability to basically do a vampiric touch.  Um... okay... A new button to press.  Um... Yippe?  20 shit levels to get a new button?

How the hell will this game have fun pvp when the fighters have a grand total of 2-3 skills and identical stats in every other way?

[kaid]

The utter lack of skills and diversity does help balance out pvp but frankly I doubt this game will appeal in the long run to anybody who likes any sort of individualism. It mainly will appeal to those who are more about a guilds wellbeing and not their characters. Basically if you like being a basic faceless footsoldier this is your nirvana.

The really sad thing is most of the people who really liked it from closed beta said it was pretty fun after level 40. I have to say no to any game that the first 2/3s of it are boring beyond belief only to be trudged through in vain hope the last 20 levels really are amusing.


Kaid

[ajax34i]

Wellp, I catassed to level 11 or so, solo caster.  Game gives shiney often, in terms of spells you can train in-between levels, but otherwise it's just a grind.  Better than an EQ grind (no sitting, and no downtime now that the crowd has levelled way ahead of me and moved out of the areas I'm in).

I grouped too, tried to be a healer for a bunch of tanks.  The interface for it is cumbersome, and I hate spells that don't recycle instantly, but there's a workaround by cycling 2 heals or 2 attacks.

I have no plans to get in a clan or do PvP, so ultimately I'm playing just to waste time.

Regarding PvP, I think this game may have a slight problem:  it attracts PvP'ers.  That's not bad in-and-of-itself, but that includes wolves looking for unwilling sheep, and when said wolves discover that red=bad, they turn to working around the game mechanics (instead of leaving the game).

[schild]

This was posted on the main page of CTRLALTDEL (the web comic).

Also, I believe I have officially been turned off of Lineage 2. I really enjoy the game, but the community can suck my lefticle.

World of Warcraft, will you be my savior?

I don't think he gets it. Hopefully he'll still have a righticle after he's done with the WoW open beta community.

[Xilren's Twin]

For the record, there are a few low-level Fed-Ex type quests in Lineage II. I remember doing one that involve traveling here and there delivering letters or somesuch for a warehouse NPC, for which I got something like 5000 adena (pretty good at the level I was).

If anyone actually cares, you can see all of the low level quests right here.

You can also get a list of weapons and gear broken down too.

Still meh, but reading the board or all the people unable to log is amusing in a trainwreck sort of way...

Xilren

[daveNYC]

This was posted on the main page of CTRLALTDEL (the web comic).

Also, I believe I have officially been turned off of Lineage 2. I really enjoy the game, but the community can suck my lefticle.

World of Warcraft, will you be my savior?

I don't think he gets it. Hopefully he'll still have a righticle after he's done with the WoW open beta community.

He's hoping that the WoW community will be a good thing, and you want him to remain fertile?

[Jain Zar]

I found the only actual interaction in combat during my last time playing it.  I gained that Dark Elf fighter power attack skill.  Well, if you overkill the target you gain extra xp!  So basically if you use your special combat ability juuust before the beastie dies, you gain extra xp based on how much you overkilled it.  It was very stupid yet amusing.    Its kind of like Disagea's combo system except totally not fun...

[Sloth]

There are more casual gamers than there are hardcore gamers, but that doesn't mean they are going to pay monthly fees or even be inclined to like MMOGs. Thats how companies like EA think, they see a game sell a million copies and think those consumers will buy anything if its marketed toward them.

There are more people who play Pogo and Zone type web games than there are that play FPS. Does that mean a FPS could be made to appeal to Pogo.commers? You might raise some interest but by and large you'll be met with indifference and those consumers will go back to playing on the Zone.

Players are going to gravitate toward games they like to play. Its the old adage you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

The key is knowing what you want. For alot of people they don't know what they want.

[Mr_PeaCH]

Inasmuch as this topic is winding down a bit; here's a link to a guide/FAQ for Lin2 that I saw and thought you'd appreciate whichever side of the Lin2 fence you're on.  The author seems to have a bit of teh ol' h8 and unflinchingly lays bare the games weak and strong points (as he sees them).

Lineage 2 Newbie Guide

I particularly liked the introductary parts and he does a good job explaining the PK/karma stuff later on.  Wish I'd understood it fully earlier... I never would have fought back against that purple who started fighting me and instead just let him turn red or stop fighting me.

[ClumsyOaf]

Inasmuch as this topic is winding down a bit; here's a link to a guide/FAQ for Lin2 that I saw and thought you'd appreciate whichever side of the Lin2 fence you're on.  The author seems to have a bit of teh ol' h8 and unflinchingly lays bare the games weak and strong points (as he sees them).

Lineage 2 Newbie Guide

I particularly liked the introductary parts and he does a good job explaining the PK/karma stuff later on.  Wish I'd understood it fully earlier... I never would have fought back against that purple who started fighting me and instead just let him turn red or stop fighting me.

That's a pretty good guide actually. There are a few things he could have pointed out a bit more though, like:

Don't play human if you're a casual player. You start on a godforsaken island, with no money quest, and the only way to get off is to either take a boat that leave once an hour, and take 15 minutes to cross (yes, they managed to take the eq boat ride and make it an even more horrifying experience) - or pay 16k for a teleport.

There is absolutely no point in killing monsters that are higher level than you, no matter how large your group is. He does mention it, but not how absolute the rules are. There's an xp cap depending on how many people there are in your group (e.g.: solo I can get 250xp killing mobs that con below me in level, with 2 people in my group I'll get 150xp for killing deep red cons). The most efficient xp groups are 2-3 players killing monsters all of them can solo easily. There is one small thing that might balance this out, skillpoints - they don't scale this way. If you kill harder mobs you'll get a nice SP/XP ratio, but the way things scale in this game I don't think that'll matter a lot in the long run.


And the one thing that, in my humble opinion, must be the stupidest "new shiny" I've seen in a game for a long time: Their player vendor system. This is good for 2 things: lag and lag. Basically you use your character as a vendor, sounds like a good idea - right? Except, you have to be logged on, so you add a connection to the server. Anyone who's going to do any serious trading at all is going to have a 24/7 shop account - for a dwarf (tradeskill character) I'd say it is a requirement - maybe unless you're in a large and active guild. So now you have a stupid amount of additional accounts that are online, lagging out the connection (there's a reason all the servers report net congestion in the login view). Now, where do you think these people will be setting up shop? That's right, in town squares and town entrances - making even the thought of going to town painful - and adds yet another reason why you really don't want to die.

The Unreal engine is supposed to be good, but some of the towns require more than 1gb ram (or, for those who have less - a lot of swapping), in addition to a lot of ram on your gfx card (you can still crash due to some out of texture memory error with 64mb at least).

[HaemishM]

Lineage 2 Newbie Guide

Equipment matters more than levels, regardless of what class you are.
You will die. Repeatedly at times. You will lose exp. You will delevel. You will lose items. You will NOT lose money. You will recover.
For best results, pick on things weaker than you. If you're in a group, pick on more of them.
The first rule of MMORPGs is strongly in force: whoever has the most time to play, wins.

That is as good an explanation as to why I didn't like this game as any.

[slog]

Lineage 2 Newbie Guide

Equipment matters more than levels, regardless of what class you are.
You will die. Repeatedly at times. You will lose exp. You will delevel. You will lose items. You will NOT lose money. You will recover.
For best results, pick on things weaker than you. If you're in a group, pick on more of them.
The first rule of MMORPGs is strongly in force: whoever has the most time to play, wins.

That is as good an explanation as to why I didn't like this game as any.

Yep that's definetly the case.  100 peeps will always beat 20 peeps.

[HaemishM]

I don't mind numbers winning most times; sure it encourages the zerg rush mentality, but in actuality, that's what strategy boiled down to in a melee-centric war (or even now). Be there firstest with the mostest.

Since MMOG PVP combat generally doesn't have considerations like terrain, LOS, and morale into play, the zerg rush always wins. There is no 300 Spartans against the 10,000 Persians in MMOG's, unless level > everything, which also has little to no skill involved.

[slog]

Since MMOG PVP combat generally doesn't have considerations like terrain, LOS, and morale into play, the zerg rush always wins. There is no 300 Spartans against the 10,000 Persians in MMOG's, unless level > everything, which also has little to no skill involved.

A Caster needs LOS to hit you (you can break LOS by moving behind Terrain).  Same for Ranged (archers).  It makes for some interesting battles, since a healer cannot heal you if you break LOS as well.

[ajax34i]

Actually, some of my experiences:

- I'm actually dying on purpose whenever I need to go to town to train more stuff.  Yes there are teleport scrolls and they're not that expensive, but shrug.  Basically, skill points matter more than XP, and I'd rather stay the same level and keep the same mobs while I purchase abilities with SP and become stronger, so that when I do move to the uber mobs I can actually take them out.

- Solo interface is ok, you get used to the camera and controls after a while.  Group interface absolutely sucks:  there's no way to quickly select other party members so you can heal them.  I have to click.  Clicking sucks (sluggish).

- Aggro is weird.  You can proxy-aggro one monster out of a group of 5 together (by inching forward till it aggroes), but if you damage-aggro it, the whole group comes.  However, if you're kiting an aggro mob through a group of similar creatures, they usually don't aggro.  Return when you've killed your target, and they'll proxy-aggro on you.  Maybe I'm wrong, but those have been my experiences.

- Weapon affects spell damage for casters.  Basically casters need the biggest slowest 2 hander staff possible, because spell damage is affected by the weapon damage, but spell speed isn't affected by the weapon speed.

- The Karma system confuses everyone into being griefed.  On a blue EQ server, you can be KS'd, trained, harrassed, etc., and there's nothing you can do, and you know that so you just take it easy, log off, whatever.  In L2, you can get KS'd, trained, harrassed, etc., and a lot of people snap and go red, which only opens the door to more griefing being done to them.

And yes, they got a few things wrong (most MMOG's have evolved past this point):  the aggro system, the UI, the boats, the fact that people can exploit mob pathing...

[ClumsyOaf]

- Solo interface is ok, you get used to the camera and controls after a while.  Group interface absolutely sucks:  there's no way to quickly select other party members so you can heal them.  I have to click.  Clicking sucks (sluggish).

Not to mention that if you should happen to click on someone you already have targeted (in other words: twice) - you run over and whack them in the head! Which can make healing people in large battles rather frustrating.
I see absolutely no use for this feature. If you want to attack someone in your party (often used to bait others into attacking you) - you should be perfectly fine doing it the same way you attack other white characters...

the fact that people can exploit mob pathing...

Seems unavoidable currently - with the exception of teleporting mobs. There are, I believe, pathfinding algorithms that are strong enough - but they take too much cpu time.

[Atlas]

I spent a few moments going over this post a friend linked to me. Seeing different opinions on the state of MMORPG’s etc. As someone who has played EQ to level 65 three times, earned 450 AA and been POT flagged, played AO to 158, DAOC to 50, FFXI to 55.  I have a perspective on these games and the “treadmill” effect.
   Lets look at games like this. Each game has advancement, much like a sport of any skill you try to increase. Advancement means you repeat a task, whether it is climbing or biking or swimming or baseball. You repeat this task to gain skill and achieve better results at whatever you are trying to do.
   An MMORPG is just the same, but lets correlate this.  When you ride a bike you petal the same petals on the same bike for hours on end. What changes in the terrain but not the action, and if you use a stationary bike not even the terrain changes. Like any sport you have extreme version where you go down hill biking or beach biking etc but the skill you are using remains the same.
   Likening this to Lineage you might complain the petals (chat commands) and the seat (the slash commands) are not comfortable or well usable. I wouldn’t argue that at all and the response time on some in game commands needs work or PVP won’t be a fun encounter.  All that being said the argument over the treadmill issue; hard-core/casual gamer has existed since EQ came out.
   One thing anyone who plays any skill based/advancement based/experience based game HAS to accept is that any game that requires your avatar/character/toon to grow will take time and will be repetitive. Sorry that’s life, current technology does not allow, and I don’t think it would be fun, a game to redesign combat and skills or so radically redefine encounters per fight as to allow you to experience a totally new experience for every fight. A system is just that, it is a system; it has to have close defined and yes repetitive actions that define it. Fighting can only be so interactive; I for one don’t want to play any MMORPG where I have to click every time I want to attack, that would quickly tire my finger out. No carpal tunnels please, thank you.
   Secondly any game that requires advancement requires time to complete and casual gamers will always lag behind power games. If you look at the single defining attribute of power games, its not some superior intellect, its just time. Those who have more time to put into an advancement based game will advance more quickly.  How does that relate to the low end game as this review is titled? Very simply and more directly related to the first point, all games have mechanics, which are repeated from the first encounter to the last.  Mastery of those mechanics is what defines the most efficient mathematical progression in a system that is after all mathematical. So whether its this game or another or the next game, WOW included, get ready to ride the leveling treadmill doing the same pedaling on their brand of bike.
   I can respect you don’t like the scenery (the game you choose) but if that’s the case change games. If you don’t like repetitive kill based (skill/exp) games then don’t play MMORPG’s, they aren’t for you.

And side note: Just like in Hardware sales, Power Games spend more and play more and account for a larger profit base than casual gamers. You can reference profit reports from companies for their statistics on multiple account ownership to account for this.

[daveNYC]

One thing anyone who plays any skill based/advancement based/experience based game HAS to accept is that any game that requires your avatar/character/toon to grow will take time and will be repetitive.

NO.

[Atlas]

Sorry, Dave.

If you dont like it dont play games who's entire concept is based around levelling and advancing skills via repeating encounters.

I have never understood people who argue against wanting to level and play in a mathmatical system that will by definition be repetitve yet clamor to play games that are just that.

[daveNYC]

Perhaps I should have been more specific.  Some time, and some repetition I can handle.  The fact that raiding orc_camp_001 will be similar to raiding orc_camp_002.  I can do that.

What I am no longer willing to do is Progressquest my way for x number of days /played, just to get to some pre-planned point where The Endgame starts.

For example: I've only made it to level 29 in DAoC, and you know what?  I still need to wack-a-mole for 16 levels before I get to the point where I'm not just a speed bump in The Endgame.

Fuck that, I've hit enough foozles.  I want my fun now.

[Atlas]

Again MMORPG's are just that, if you dont enjoy it , dont play them.

Its just that simple. Play a FPS or a RTS but not an MMORPG.

[Rasix]

Again MMORPG's are just that, if you dont enjoy it , dont play them.

Its just that simple. Play a FPS or a RTS but not an MMORPG.

Hey, we already have one brickheaded moron here to spout that mantra to death (HIS NAME RHYMES WITH HOTH).

Really, be a tad more near sighted.  Everything evolves and changes, even gaming. Moron.

[daveNYC]

Again MMORPG's are just that, if you dont enjoy it , dont play them.

Its just that simple. Play a FPS or a RTS but not an MMORPG.

You stupid inbred fuck, they are like that.  The point is they don't have to be like that.  It's not some fucking law of existance that MMOGs need to involve X hours of suck before the fun kicks in.  If you like the way MMOGs are right now, good for you.  Me?  I want something, new, better, and different.  And a pony.

[Alluvian]

No Atlas, CURRENT MMORPGs are just like that.  But all a MMORPG by strict definition is an RPG with lots of people in it.

Advancement can be achieved without grind.  KOTOR never felt like a grind, but I went from not having any force powers to being a flipping whirling ball of light sabered death.  All just while playing the game and having fun.  I didn't sit around and kill womp rats for two days, then sit around and kill eopies for two days, then kill banthas for a week...

Baldurs gate and NWN had leveling up the wazoo.  Never stopped to just kill deer for hours/days/weeks to level up my character.

Advancement should not be about just killing stuff, but about achieving goals that are on their own fun to achieve.

WoW is trying for this.  Not sure if they will succeed for very long.  The problem with WoW, is... What do you do when you run out of quests?  If there is something fun to fall back on then that's great.  I have my worries.

City of Heroes is going for actual fun game elements.  The combat is a lot more fun, there are the missions that feel right in place, and simple mobility is a blast.  This will eventually wear thin of course.  All that is good must come to an end.

But to simply sit back and think that MMOGS are boring by design, and that is the players fault for wanting fun is asanine.

Oh, and your list of 'accomplishments' you so proudly state makes me think you need psychiatric help more than medals and accolades.  You are the mouse that would keep pressing the bar to get the pellet long after the pellet machine has broken down.  Just the click the bar makes when you press it seems to be enough for you.

Takes all kinds I suppose.

You stationary bike comparison was about right though.  But nobody rides a fucking stationary bike for 'fun'.  They do it for exercise.  There is no side benefit in a MMOG.  If it aint fun there is no reason at ALL to do it.

[HaemishM]

One thing anyone who plays any skill based/advancement based/experience based game HAS to accept is that any game that requires your avatar/character/toon to grow will take time and will be repetitive. Sorry that’s life, current technology does not allow, and I don’t think it would be fun, a game to redesign combat and skills or so radically redefine encounters per fight as to allow you to experience a totally new experience for every fight.

Bullshit. Double bullshit. And triple bullshit, and you've bought the whole shit sandwich. You happen to enjoy the taste of this shit; I do not.

See, while the underpinnings of computer games may be nothing more than mathematical equations, the HEART and SPIRIT of them are not. They are the illusions that are placed on top of the calculations. They are the fun part. The math is not. If math was fun, I'd have been a programmer; since it isn't, I'm a gamer.

There are games out there that require player skill, totally separated from avatar skill. See, avatar skill is what MMOG's (the ones that suck) work off of. Everything else is secondary to avatar skill. And in MMOG's, avatar skill is gained by spending time. Nothing else matters so much as the time played. Which puts me at a disadvantage I (as a casual player with little time to play) at an automatic disadvantage. I have no skill to contribute to the game. MMOG's do not have to be all avatar skill, it just so happens that's the easiest thing to do.

As for your argument about the hardcore gamer (pssst, we call them and you catass), that's bullshit. Sure, they may hold multiple accounts, of that you are correct. But, and here's the salient bit, they are online longer (which contributes to higher overhead from bandwidth costs), they require more customer service time (more operating costs) and often cause the most headaches to the developers by being the loudest minority. Per player, they HAVE to have multiple accounts just to be a profitable customer. A casual player uses less bandwidth, doesn't read the message boards and has less CS issues, meaning the costs of keeping that customer are less. Not to mention the fact that they take longer to consume content, which means they can hold subscriptions longer.

In short, reality does not coincide with your view of hardcore gamers. But thanks for having bought into the developer excuse line.

[Atlas]

So much tact and ability to speak ideas coherently I see.

I very simply stated that if you want to play and ADVANCEMENT based game then you will have to accept it takes time and repeition.

There are quite a few gaming networks where those criteria are not required.

Perhaps instead of your interesting use of grammar and obvious hostility towards someone who has presented logical arguements that still have not been countered at all beyond a simple No I dont like it you might investigate those games and networks. It would surely increase your social awareness and abilities Im sure.

And perhaps other than ranting with so much suprising hatred over the state of games you might actually contact developers and generate a mailing list to show consumer demand for a game such as you seek and even perhaps suggest features and implementation ideas you might like to see on these forums in debates such as this. You claim I am hard headed and ignorant but I offered facts and reason for my thoughts. I have yet to see the same presented in support of your alternative demands.

It might get you more than this message board to rant on, perhaps the game you wish to play?

I await your barrage of whitty comebacks and colorful use of the english language.

EDIT in reply to the reply that hit while I was posting.

Even MMORPG;s require player skill, EQ, DAOC, all those require player skill that is not internally dependant on the avatar's skill.

And you can call for the spirit of the game but it still must be housed in the mathmatics of the gaming system.

Time is all I used to define a power gamer, he has more time to play than you. How is that not correct?

And actually I look at profit reports and margins that come from business executives not developrs BS. I tend to watch financial trends not egg head speak. So nothing to do with your counter. Thank you for your thoughts though.

As a final challenge explain how a gaming system that was not server side intensive and proccess intensive to the point of stalling would redefine a combat system per fight so it was new and totally different?

I am still curious awaiting any comments that are factual and offer a workable solution to the issue. Hopefully you can affect the change you seek. Due to the social skills of my respondents, I wont hold my breath.

[Xilren's Twin]

If you dont like it dont play games who's entire concept is based around levelling and advancing skills via repeating encounters.

I have never understood people who argue against wanting to level and play in a mathmatical system that will by definition be repetitve yet clamor to play games that are just that.

Here's a hopeful redirect to the point you missed.  It's not the leveling in and of itself that causes people to deem games mindless treadmills, it's the a) length of the repetition (which is wholly arbitrary) and b) the system itself which lack and sort of fun or engaging game play prior to getting to the "fun endgame".

Your real world example just doesn't jibe.  You mentioned getting better at things like biking or baseball, and yes repitition is important to get better.  But you know what, if you like baseball, playing a baseball game (no matter how many times you do it) is actually FUN no matter what "level" baseball player you are.  It doesn't matter if your in a softball league, high school baseball, semi-pro or pro, you get to perform all the meaningful actions there are from day 1 (hitting, fielding, running, throwing, play any position you can).  You don't wait to start hitting until you've played for 2 years...

Just because you accept that you have to trudge through boring gameplay for 3 months before a game gets fun, that's your choice.  It's not an immutable law of gaming...

Xilren

[HaemishM]

Sorry, you haven't been here for the last year and a half to see the ideas I've "presented to the developers." Perhaps I should archive my old series of articles on "The Mature MMOG," which did exactly that, giving my ideas about alternative approaches to MMOG design. Most of the devs who read them at the time told me I was crazy, my ideas were unworkable, too expensive, etc. etc. etc.

Yeah, I'll start a mailing list and try to get devs to listen to my ideas about game design. Ideas are cheap; every idiot on a message board (including me) knows how to "fix" the current games. Devs have no shortage of ideas on how to fix it. They just have either no money, no time, or no desire to change the status quo which seems to be making them money.

I very simply stated that if you want to play and ADVANCEMENT based game then you will have to accept it takes time and repeition.

And I never stated that I wanted to play an advancement based game. I think focusing on advancement based games is strangling our industry in a vortex of suck stronger than fluffers on a porn set. I want a game that eschews linear-based advancement in favor of a flat power curve.

Less levelling, more adventuring, y0.

[Alluvian]

Tact.  That was funny.  Came to the wrong place.

I very simply stated that if you want to play and ADVANCEMENT based game then you will have to accept it takes time and repeition.

Not true.  Advancement does not by definition require repitition.  You could advance any number of ways.  Use, killing a monster, completing any of hundreds of quests...  the problem is that the killing a monster gets focused on as the only method in the shitty games.  So that you do nothing but kill monsters.  If I am going to be forced to kill monsters, I want some entertaining gameplay.  Something none of the current persistent state worlds really provides.  Planetside, but its not really a PSW, and that is it's major failing.  SWG provided multiple modes of advancement for multiple different professions, but the combat was so horribly boring and broken that I played it using three buttons on my keyboard and didn't have to look at the screen.

As I stated, WoW is focusing on quest advancement over killing polygon advancement.  The degree of repitition depends on the variety of quests.  Unknown how it will turn out.

But I stated this all before.