Blizzards New MMO

[Kail]

Over half (maybe more?) of the characters embroiled in the ending of wc3 are dead. Arthas will have fallen (or whatever resolution) will have already occurred. Pretty big gap...

You played WC2, though, right?  How is this any different?  These characters which are all dead in WoW, they mostly weren't there in WC2.  Thrall, Arthas, Jaina, Illidan, the Scourge, all this stuff was created for WC3, and didn't exist before it.  Hell, in WC2, the Orcs were still stereotypical "break their bones and eat their flesh" monsters.  If they do WC4 they'll probably just wind forward the storyline like ten years, just like they did after the end of WC2.  Give the Horde a new Warchief, make Anduin the King (again) and poof, you've got a new setting, and WoW can keep going for decades without butting up against it.

[gryeyes]

The story in wc2 and its expansion has most of the main characters fate is dealt with. There is no story driven cliffhanger at the end of "Beyond the dark portal". At the stories completion the main antagonist dies (or is assumed to be dead) their armies defeated with the portal (main threat) being destroyed. WC3 picks up 20 or so years later with nothing having changed and continues a character driven plot that didn't exist in previous warcrafts with all the major characters story being unresolved at the end.

Yes they added two new factions. With all new characters (with few exceptions) but the story continued where it left off for both the humans and the orks. Wc3 just introduces the real enemy by its end. Fast forward and the main threat is dead. Illidan is dead. blood elf guy is dead. War with the scourge is pretty much over.

[Venkman]

But story/backstory of the Titan War is just beginning. And that gets us back to the real origins of the Scourge (the split between the original three friends, one of which eventually became A'dal). My memory here is a bit hazy, but that actual origin point is outlined in Rise of the Horde. Actually a pretty sad story that, but it provides the proper backdrop for the Draenei, Draenor and therefore the BC expansion. But that's not the important part.

They could easily go back to the true origin through a CoT-like series of instances that retell then what they decide to advance further today.

Also, I don't really get the sense that WotLK "advanced" the story as much as told the other half of it. It's like we were all gunning for Illidan, "but meanwhile, back on Azeroth" stuff is going on we're not living in a parallel timeline.

And yea, sorry about earlier, I read you wrong and misinterpreted what you were implying

[Kirth]

And that gets us back to the real origins of the Scourge (the split between the original three friends, one of which eventually became A'dal). My memory here is a bit hazy, but that actual origin point is outlined in Rise of the Horde. Actually a pretty sad story that, but it provides the proper backdrop for the Draenei, Draenor and therefore the BC expansion. But that's not the important part.

Think you a referring to Valen, Kil'jaeden, and Archimonde. And its more a detail of how the eredar became members in the burning legion, Witch is indirectly related to the scourge.

[Venkman]

Yea, I think that's right. Valen iirc became A'dar (eventually).

The point is that every single sidenote in the history of Azeroth and Draenor can be fleshed out as an origin to some future phase of the story that would follow Arthas dying (or however that eventual event resolves). And you only need to look to Star Wars to see just how easy it is to pick the most innane detail to wrap an entire multi-book arc around 

[Ingmar]

Velen doesn't become A'dal, Velen is the draenei racial leader in the Exodar.

AFAIK nobody ever became a naaru in the lore, the naaru are a separate race of already existing folks who showed up and said HEY VELEN DON'T TRUST SARGERAS.

[Venkman]

I thought Valen fused with A'dal in the Orc Shaman ghost temple place before they fled Draenor after the Orc attack on the main city? Cannot remember the name of that city. And in fact, I'm all hazy on when The Exodar actually left and landed on Azeroth. I could probably look all this shit up... 

[Sheepherder]

I don't see how Warcraft has any more room to be expanded on.  They stretched credibility pretty fucking thin with WoW.  Particularly TBC, but to a lesser extent with Wrath and the sudden appearance of giant vikings, walrus people, robotic gnomes, and non-organic dwarves in large and small varieties.  I don't think the universe can take much more expansion without (more) people getting pissed to the point where they just don't care.

[Lantyssa]

I don't much care about the lore anymore (see any of my myriad rants on pop-culture references).  As a game it's still fun.

If they make some of the races I want to be playable, it'll be even more fun.

[Malakili]

I don't see how Warcraft has any more room to be expanded on.  They stretched credibility pretty fucking thin with WoW.  Particularly TBC, but to a lesser extent with Wrath and the sudden appearance of giant vikings, walrus people, robotic gnomes, and non-organic dwarves in large and small varieties.  I don't think the universe can take much more expansion without (more) people getting pissed to the point where they just don't care.

I think you overestimate how much people care about Warcraft lore.  They could make World of Warcraft: Giant Ponies, and the raiding guilds would be lined up to do the new 25 man pink purple polka dot pony encounter, with strats up on the first day it was live on how to counter is unicorn laser beam.

[Sheepherder]

I think you overestimate how much people care about Warcraft lore.  They could make World of Warcraft: Giant Ponies, and the raiding guilds would be lined up to do the new 25 man pink purple polka dot pony encounter, with strats up on the first day it was live on how to counter is unicorn laser beam.

I imagine the novelizations are a figment of my imagination.

[gryeyes]

I imagine the novelizations are a figment of my imagination.

Barring like one or two the text in the original manuals is of far higher quality than the novels. But im pretty sure he meant lore means dick to the players of WoW in their enjoyment of the game. Most of the people i encountered in WoW had very little grasp of the lore from the RTS's. Id be willing to guess a majority of WoW players had a grasp of the lore before the MMO.

[eldaec]

I don't see how Warcraft has any more room to be expanded on.  They stretched credibility pretty fucking thin with WoW.  Particularly TBC, but to a lesser extent with Wrath and the sudden appearance of giant vikings, walrus people, robotic gnomes, and non-organic dwarves in large and small varieties.  I don't think the universe can take much more expansion without (more) people getting pissed to the point where they just don't care.

I think you overestimate how much people care about Warcraft lore.  They could make World of Warcraft: Giant Ponies, and the raiding guilds would be lined up to do the new 25 man pink purple polka dot pony encounter, with strats up on the first day it was live on how to counter is unicorn laser beam.

Same goes for any MMOG.

Shit, given SWG and LotRO can get away with the liberties they take, it seems faintly ridiculous for anyone to argue that any IP limits what the designers can do with the game.

How do you think Star Trek Online is going to play out?

Prime Directive my ass. That's how.

[Draegan]

The people who scream and fight about the lore in WOW are pretty funny.  No one cares.  Really.  No one does.  Pink Ponies or whatever.  People want cool shit to fight and cool looking monsters and it doesn't matter if it's in a raid or a single player quest chain. 

[Venkman]

I think you overestimate how much people care about Warcraft lore.  They could make World of Warcraft: Giant Ponies, and the raiding guilds would be lined up to do the new 25 man pink purple polka dot pony encounter, with strats up on the first day it was live on how to counter is unicorn laser beam.

I imagine the novelizations are a figment of my imagination.

Those are driving more existing fans into the IP than attracting new ones to it. As such, the only truly attractive force to the IP itself is the WoW game. And it's quickly obvious to even the most neophyte player that the lore of Warcraft matters not a whit to successfully playing the game.

Therefore, the lore really only matters to player actively looking for it to matter. Those are probably in the same category as people who roleplay in WoW. As in, not really enough to care about when business dictates you take the in a new direction to sell more boxes. 

[Xanthippe]

The people who scream and fight about the lore in WOW are pretty funny.  No one cares.  Really.  No one does.  Pink Ponies or whatever.  People want cool shit to fight and cool looking monsters and it doesn't matter if it's in a raid or a single player quest chain. 

Some people care.  I'm pretty far from a lore nerd, but my enjoyment of the game is in reading the stories via quest advancement.

I could give a shit about raids, and to a lesser extent loot (I love the randomness/opening a present aspect of it).

I'm not saying I represent the majority of players, but there are others like me who actually play the game for the "worldiness" or lore aspect.

[Nevermore]

I like the stories and lore, I just don't take it all too seriously.

[Ratman_tf]

I like the stories and lore, I just don't take it all too seriously.

A recurring joke in Sarth with my guild is "Why are we fighting this guy?" "He has loot!"

I'm sure there's a lore reason for it, but no one in our raid group seems to know it. 

[Malakili]

I like the stories and lore, I just don't take it all too seriously.

A recurring joke in Sarth with my guild is "Why are we fighting this guy?" "He has loot!"

I'm sure there's a lore reason for it, but no one in our raid group seems to know it. 

Cause he is a black dragon and black dragons are EEVVVVILLL

[Sheepherder]

Therefore, the lore really only matters to player actively looking for it to matter. Those are probably in the same category as people who roleplay in WoW. As in, not really enough to care about when business dictates you take the in a new direction to sell more boxes. 

Just to be clear: this is a pvp server.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Lore is one thing, a plethora of races some ridiculous and some not is another.

I mean, crack open any DnD monster manual sometime, there's no 'semblance of reason in those thing, just any creature you could possibly think of. No, don't tell me underground panthers with tentacles make sense but neither do walrus people...though giant vikings do to some extent. In any case all monsters and races are is window dressing to the plot.

I'm not going to argue wows lore though, for the most part it IS childish and simple but no more so than a hundred other fantasy novels/games.

[Morat20]

So I guess the question boils down to: "How will Blizzard make this NOT eat WoW subs?" and the answers boil down to:

1) Grab a different Bartle's set.
2) Use an entirely different genre.

Holy crap, they're making Star Wars Galaxies.

[Trippy]

As I posted on the first page Blizzard wants their next MMO to eat WoW subs in China -- that means more money hats for them even if it's "zero sum" (no additional subscribers beyond what is stolen from WoW).

[Hindenburg]

I'd be surprised if their next MMO didn't involve RMT.

[Ingmar]

I think you overestimate how much people care about Warcraft lore.  They could make World of Warcraft: Giant Ponies, and the raiding guilds would be lined up to do the new 25 man pink purple polka dot pony encounter, with strats up on the first day it was live on how to counter is unicorn laser beam.

I imagine the novelizations are a figment of my imagination.

Those are driving more existing fans into the IP than attracting new ones to it. As such, the only truly attractive force to the IP itself is the WoW game. And it's quickly obvious to even the most neophyte player that the lore of Warcraft matters not a whit to successfully playing the game.

Therefore, the lore really only matters to player actively looking for it to matter. Those are probably in the same category as people who roleplay in WoW. As in, not really enough to care about when business dictates you take the in a new direction to sell more boxes. 

I don't know much about the WoW novels, admittedly, but if they're anything like the ones WotC puts out tied to D&D settings, all kinds of people read them that never touch the game (despite how terrible they may be.)

[Sheepherder]

Lore is one thing, a plethora of races some ridiculous and some not is another.

I mean, crack open any DnD monster manual sometime, there's no 'semblance of reason in those thing, just any creature you could possibly think of. No, don't tell me underground panthers with tentacles make sense but neither do walrus people...though giant vikings do to some extent. In any case all monsters and races are is window dressing to the plot.

I'm not going to argue wows lore though, for the most part it IS childish and simple but no more so than a hundred other fantasy novels/games.

Races are lore/setting, story/plot is narrative, both are intrinsically linked.

Underground tentacle panthers?  Yeah, not including those in next nights game because I'm the GM and what I say is law.  Tuskarr?  They're like the Jar-Jar Binks of WoW, with even less explanation.  Kindly fuck off Mr. Metzen.  Vikings living on the fringes of the tundra?  Workable.  Giant vikings as the progenitor of the human race which have been retconned into a barren icy wasteland where previously nothing except fierce demi-humans and undead existed, and which are descended from demi-gods?

Players failing to care about the lore and narrative is mostly because it's been so incessantly clowned up, and it's getting worse as Blizzard decides to go back and retcon it to be more X-treme.

@Ingmar

You might be correct, but then again the barrier to entry for P&P RPG's is far more significant than WoW.  That there is a hidden market segment that actually cares about narrative/lore is pretty heavily indicated by the number of people in that screenshot, the problem is they have a hard time with the way it's presented.  Do I really need to roll another DK and get screenshots of three or four people saying "OVER 9000" to the Tirion/Arthas cinematic to illustrate the point as to what's really fucking wrong with it that people don't pay attention?

[Hindenburg]

the barrier to entry for P&P RPG's is far more significant than WoW.

That's like saying that the barrier to prepare instant noodles is far more significant than, say, microwaving a frozen dinner.

[Fordel]

That isn't even accurate, some of the directions on Frozen Dinners these days are quite involved!

[Venkman]

the barrier to entry for P&P RPG's is far more significant than WoW.

That's like saying that the barrier to prepare instant noodles is far more significant than, say, microwaving a frozen dinner.

Err, not really. He's right.

Tell me how a PnP game is anywhere near as easy as buying WoW, installing, patching and playing, at your own speed, on your own time, and only talking to other people if you feel like it.

@Sheepherder: What are you trying to tell me with that screenshot? Seriously, I can't figure it out They appear to be in Stormwind Castle headed toward the King, but otherwise I don't get it.

[Ironwood]

I think it's because they're all uniformed up.  And therefore, it'll be something nerdy and lorey, like those fucking stormtroopers in SWG.

Christ, the prequels must have fucked those guys in the ass.

[Tarami]

Four death knights in Stormwind castle doesn't strike you as a little odd, if you keep WC3 in mind? And they're walking, the hallmark of the srs arrpeer.

In short, Blizzard have jumped the shark massively and nobody seems to give a damn, not even those who ought to by preference.

Atleast that's my take.

[Hindenburg]

Tell me how a PnP game is anywhere near as easy as buying WoW, installing, patching and playing, at your own speed, on your own time, and only talking to other people if you feel like it.

Give a WoW disc to your grandmother who never used a computer before.

Now ask the same grandmother to join your PnP table. "All I gotta do is pretend that I'm an elf archer?"

[Rendakor]

Tell me how a PnP game is anywhere near as easy as buying WoW, installing, patching and playing, at your own speed, on your own time, and only talking to other people if you feel like it.

Give a WoW disc to your grandmother who never used a computer before.

Now ask the same grandmother to join your PnP table. "All I gotta do is pretend that I'm an elf archer?"

She'd likely accuse you of worshipping Satan, and get all when you told her to roll a d20.

[Ingmar]

Four death knights in Stormwind castle doesn't strike you as a little odd, if you keep WC3 in mind? And they're walking, the hallmark of the srs arrpeer.

In short, Blizzard have jumped the shark massively and nobody seems to give a damn, not even those who ought to by preference.

Atleast that's my take.

Are you kidding? The RP crowd had to be falling all overthemselves to play the ultimate tragic backstory/outsider type character of WoW the minute it was announced.

[Lantyssa]

The RP crowd killed my enjoyment of RP.