Dollhouse

[Triforcer]

Buffy was great.  Everything else he's done is shit.  But don't insult Buffy.



...Really, don't. 

[Azuredream]

Joss Whedon is to sci fi what that crazy Twilight writer cunt is to horror.

A blight.  A hideous herpes sore who has no talent yet somehow gets hordes of morons who just worship their shit and blab on about how great it is.

I don't know if I'd go that far..

[Jain Zar]

Buffy was great.  Everything else he's done is shit.  But don't insult Buffy.



...Really, don't. 

Buffy was SHIT.  Angel was lesser shit.  Alien Resurrection was ass outside of Ron Perlman who was totally rad.
His X Men comics sucked balls.
The fanbase of Firefly/Serenity makes it so I dare not even attempt to see what its about.  (Plus if I want to watch cowboys in SPAAACE Ill watch Saber Rider and the Star Sheriffs.  They have robot horsies and giant transforming robots.)

He seems like a nice guy and all, but he makes a lot of overhyped poo that people spooge over.
Its made worse since most every thing he does has some amazingly gorgeous women in them, but when even ogling Allie Hannigan isn't enough, your show be sucky.

[Velorath]

His X Men comics sucked balls.

What?

[HaemishM]

His X Men comics sucked balls.

What?

What what?

[CmdrSlack]

The Joss hate is strong with this one.

Maybe I'm lucky that Hulu only has ep 8 thru 12 online right now, but they seem pretty nifty and don't seem to totally require you have seen the first seven to make a ton of sense. Sure, you are wondering why this one guy has a hardon for finding the dollhouse, but other than that, it's all pretty well-explained. So far, I'm enjoying what I've seen online.

Maybe I"m just easy to please, I also enjoyed some other Whedon shows when they were in syndication/reruns.

[Jain Zar]

His X Men comics sucked balls.

What?

What what?

Ill give you a few points why it sucked.
1: Colossus back, ruining his sacrifice.
2: Colossus back with Kitty, negating her far more interesting relationship with Pete Wisdom, plus storywise, Kit and Piotr had pretty much moved on.
3: OH NOES LETS BE BITCHY TO WHITE QUEEN.  She has pretty much been on the side of the X Men since the later 80s.  So, almost 20 years now.  Way to Childhood Circle Jerk it.  Because Generation X didn't happen I guess, right?
4: See number 2 except that little scene where apparently orgasms make Kitty phase through the floor hur hur how funny.  No.  No its not.
5: The stories were boring and I amazingly didn't give a shit.  Made worse since I read the first trade the same day I read the first Gotham Central trade.  The latter blew that X Men trade out of the water. 
6: Morisson's New X Men run was too awesome and this basically tries to ignore or shit on as many story points of that as possible. 

Fuck Astonishing.  It was ass.  Ill say its better than much of Claremont's recent X output (Like his return to New Excalibur which was AWFUL), but this is not saying much at all.

[Velorath]

His X Men comics sucked balls.

What?

What what?

Ill give you a few points why it sucked.
[snip]

I'm not going to comic book nerd up threads too much outside the comic forum (with the possible exception of threads for movies based on comics).  Suffice it to say, you're wrong on almost every count to the point where I wonder if you actually read half the stuff you mention, like Gen X or Morrison's New X-men because they contradict some of your points.

[HaemishM]

Ill give you a few points why it sucked.
1: Colossus back, ruining his sacrifice.
2: Colossus back with Kitty, negating her far more interesting relationship with Pete Wisdom, plus storywise, Kit and Piotr had pretty much moved on.
3: OH NOES LETS BE BITCHY TO WHITE QUEEN.  She has pretty much been on the side of the X Men since the later 80s.  So, almost 20 years now.  Way to Childhood Circle Jerk it.  Because Generation X didn't happen I guess, right?
4: See number 2 except that little scene where apparently orgasms make Kitty phase through the floor hur hur how funny.  No.  No its not.
5: The stories were boring and I amazingly didn't give a shit.  Made worse since I read the first trade the same day I read the first Gotham Central trade.  The latter blew that X Men trade out of the water. 
6: Morisson's New X Men run was too awesome and this basically tries to ignore or shit on as many story points of that as possible. 

Fuck Astonishing.  It was ass.  Ill say its better than much of Claremont's recent X output (Like his return to New Excalibur which was AWFUL), but this is not saying much at all.

1: Colussus sacrifice was idiotic in the first place, thanks to Scott Lobdell being mostly a no-talent hack tool. Undoing that death was a very good idea.
2: Pete Wisdom is a less interesting John Constantine unless written by Warren Ellis, who I'm quite sure was taking the piss with the character in the first place.
3: White Queen originally KIDNAPPED Kitty Pryde and tried to impress her into Hellfire Club service. I'm pretty sure Kitty would hold a grudge about that shit no matter how nice nice Emma Frost has become.
5: The only bad parts about the stories was how long it took for them to put out new issues and the lack of connectedness to the rest of the X-continuity they seemed to have. The latter is also what made them good, because X-Continuity took a serious shit once Morrison left the book.
6: Dead wrong. As a matter of fact, it was the only X-Men book that really held true to the Morrison run. Everything else just tried to reset X-Men back to the status quo before he got on the book.

In other words, you are wrong and you likely smell like nerdrage. I won't disagree that much of Whedon's work outside of Firefly has been overrated, but Astonishing is not one of those things.

[Reg]

You mean some people around here have an irrational hate for Whedon and all of his works? Shocking.

[Jain Zar]

You mean some people around here have an irrational hate for Whedon and all of his works? Shocking.

I don't hate the guy.  As mentioned he seems like a nice enough bloke.
Its his creations that bite the big one.

PS: Still don't care fuck Astonishing X Men I don't like it and yall can't make me! 

[Slyfeind]

You mean some people around here have an irrational hate for Whedon and all of his works? Shocking.

What amazes me is how much people hate him, and then spend insane amounts of time reading his books and watching his shows. It's like someone discovered some milk was sour, so they bought ten thousand gallons of the same milk, drank it, pissed it out, put it in an enema and squirted it up their asses, then ate the feces that resulted from all of that.

After they hated Buffy, Angel, Firefly, Alien4, Toy Story, Atlantis, and all of his X-Men comics, they STILL tuned into Dollhouse!!! WHAT THE FUCK??? 

[jayfyve]

You mean some people around here have an irrational hate for Whedon and all of his works? Shocking.

What amazes me is how much people hate him, and then spend insane amounts of time reading his books and watching his shows. It's like someone discovered some milk was sour, so they bought ten thousand gallons of the same milk, drank it, pissed it out, put it in an enema and squirted it up their asses, then ate the feces that resulted from all of that.

After they hated Buffy, Angel, Firefly, Alien4, Toy Story, Atlantis, and all of his X-Men comics, they STILL tuned into Dollhouse!!! WHAT THE FUCK??? 

Because he killed Wash. 

[schild]

It's like someone discovered some milk was sour, so they bought ten thousand gallons of the same milk, drank it, pissed it out, put it in an enema and squirted it up their asses, then ate the feces that resulted from all of that.

I'm pretty sure it's not like that.

In fact, I'm pretty sure nothing is like that.

That's disgusting.

[Threash]

There's an extremely good unaired episode called Epitath 1 on the dvds, i don't want to spoil it because its pretty much the best in the series but you should definitely check it out if you are a fan.  I hope its canon, and i hope we see more like it on the second season.

[Evildrider]

There's an extremely good unaired episode called Epitath 1 on the dvds, i don't want to spoil it because its pretty much the best in the series but you should definitely check it out if you are a fan.  I hope its canon, and i hope we see more like it on the second season.

That's the 13th episode right?  The one they had to make for the DvD's?  With Felicia Day?  If it is, that wa a pretty decent episode.  Although I don't think Fox is gonna pay to air it.

[Tebonas]

I don't think it is part of canon either, but definitely one of the high points of first season.

[Numtini]

Funny, I came here to post on it as well. AFAIK it is canon in as much as Whedon loves alternative and altering realities. He did say that in the event the series was cancelled (and it was the lowest rated show in history not to be) it was meant to be the conclusion of the series. That's about as canon as it can get I think provided the series doesn't run 10 years.

And the episode was really really good.

I hate to throw a bone to the more rabidly Whedonish types who blamed all his problems on Fox, but I gotta say, the pilot which is on the same disk in the special features section was a hundred percent better than the one they actually aired.

[Numtini]

Hate to double post, but I just came across this article, and apparently not only is it canon, but the next season will flip back and forth between current world and the epitaph one world.

[Tebonas]

Thats awesome! More Felicia Day is always a good, and the future storyline is intriguing.

[eldaec]

I don't think it is part of canon either, but definitely one of the high points of first season.

Is this just the 'scenes from teh future!' episode?

I'm pretty sure it is canon, it aired as a normal episode over here.

I thought it was great and all, but I'd rather he hadn't spoiled how every single character, the dollhouse, and society as a whole ends up, along with shit like the mysterious mystery of the dollhouse's purpose, what they plan to do with Helo now that his character makes no sense after the last regular episode, and how Echo would not just be doing the same shit over and over.

I appreciate that what Whedon was doing was making a pilot for the next season so he had chance to get picked up (no chance the show would have survived without this episode), but still, jesus fuck.


Also, hey Whedon you fucker, was it really necessary for the entire season to make no progress along the main story arc until the last three episodes?

[schild]

Also, hey Whedon you fucker, was it really necessary for the entire season to make no progress along the main story arc until the last three episodes?

This is roughly 40% of the reason I hate Whedon. He does not know how to pace, at all.

[Velorath]

If you ever come across any shows with season long story arcs that are well paced, please let me know.

[Tebonas]

British ones are more often than not. Might be the shorter seasons.

[Evildrider]

British ones are more often than not. Might be the shorter seasons.

That and they never know if they are going to get cancelled.   

[Teleku]

I thought the first season of BSG was paced very well.

[apocrypha]

I thought the first season of BSG was paced very well.

I thought the 2 episodes of the miniseries were well paced then it went downhill.

Thing with Dollhouse now is that if Whedon goes on to make series 2 and it's not as good as those last few episodes then he should be fucked. I think he should piss off for a year or two and come back when he's written at least one whole series of something that's as good as that 13th episode.

[schild]

If you ever come across any shows with season long story arcs that are well paced, please let me know.

I didn't ask for season long story arcs, I just asked for well-paced, and there's no shortage of well-paced shows out there. Most notably among recent shows I'd say Fringe, Supernatural, and Californication were well-paced. Hell, the last one has season long story arcs. Dirty Sexy Money too. Oh, also True Blood.

[stray]

Hell, I like Whedon somewhat, can almost be sold on the show with Eliza Dushku, and still couldn't keep up with it. There's only so much time to go around as well.. I don't even watch all of the better shows than this.

[caladein]

If you ever come across any shows with season long story arcs that are well paced, please let me know.

I didn't ask for season long story arcs, I just asked for well-paced, and there's no shortage of well-paced shows out there. Most notably among recent shows I'd say Fringe, Supernatural, and Californication were well-paced. Hell, the last one has season long story arcs. Dirty Sexy Money too. Oh, also True Blood.

Fringe is really just monster-of-the-week with barely enough ham-fisted foreshadowing plot development at the end of each episode to classify it as a serial.  It does get away from that in the last quarter season though but we'll see next week if it drifts back to procedural-land.  I still eat it up, but as a whole it doesn't compares favorably to Dollhouse (or Alias, which is probably the mid-point between the two shows).

[schild]

If you ever come across any shows with season long story arcs that are well paced, please let me know.

I didn't ask for season long story arcs, I just asked for well-paced, and there's no shortage of well-paced shows out there. Most notably among recent shows I'd say Fringe, Supernatural, and Californication were well-paced. Hell, the last one has season long story arcs. Dirty Sexy Money too. Oh, also True Blood.

Fringe is really just monster-of-the-week with barely enough ham-fisted foreshadowing plot development at the end of each episode to classify it as a serial.  It does get away from that in the last quarter season though but we'll see next week if it drifts back to procedural-land.  I still eat it up, but as a whole it doesn't compares favorably to Dollhouse (or Alias, which is probably the mid-point between the two shows).

JJ Abrams is all about fitting seemingly disconnected pieces together over the course of a series. What may seem disjointed ends up not being, eventually. Sometimes it takes him a while and sometimes he forgets where he was going (see: Lost), but for the most part, everything is part of something. Moreso with Alias though, as you mentioned. Still, it's more well-paced, which is what I was saying.

Arguably, Supernatural is monster of the week also, but it's also more well-paced.

I only listed Californication and Dirty Sexy Money as being season long story arcs (also, True Blood).

[Velorath]

If you ever come across any shows with season long story arcs that are well paced, please let me know.

I didn't ask for season long story arcs, I just asked for well-paced, and there's no shortage of well-paced shows out there. Most notably among recent shows I'd say Fringe, Supernatural, and Californication were well-paced. Hell, the last one has season long story arcs. Dirty Sexy Money too. Oh, also True Blood.

I know you didn't ask for season long story arcs, but virtually every TV show that tries to tell an ongoing story goes that route.  Haven't watched too many of the shows you mentioned, but the fact that you mention True Blood as an example of good pacing baffles me, as even with shorter seasons than network TV it still has had huge pacing problems.

[schild]

I disagree, given how poorly stuff is typically paced, but this is too ridiculous an argument even for me given how much more TV I apparently watch so my view of well-paced is obviously going to be completely different.

[Velorath]

I disagree, given how poorly stuff is typically paced, but this is too ridiculous an argument even for me given how much more TV I apparently watch so my view of well-paced is obviously going to be completely different.

I don't see it as a comparative argument.  In other words, I don't give True Blood a pass on its issues just because a lot of other stuff is paced even worse.  It's a problem with a high percentage of TV shows with ongoing stories, so to just call out one writer for it seems a little pointless, especially coming from someone who powered through every season of Smallville recently.  Terminator had pacing issues, blowing it's load with the second season opener, and then dragging through a lot of the middle of the season.  I just watched all 5 seasons of The Wire recently, which is only about 60 episodes total, and as brilliant as the writing is, even that show had some issues with parts of the story treading water for a long time.

It's the same problem comic books had when writers starting stretching out their stories to fill the eventual trade paperback.  You can't just come up with a story and think, "ok, now how do I make this fill 6 issues" (or in the case of TV 12-22 episodes).

[caladein]

Just caught the premiere on Hulu.  I love this show, a lot.