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angry.bob
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Reply #385 on: June 05, 2011, 12:26:38 PM

I'm just wondering if anyone has any experience or advice about ketogenic diets?

I did Atkins a few years back when I hit 300lbs @6'2". Worked like a charm, lost a steady 2lbs a dayafter the first week until I hit about 220lbs and just sort of hoovreed around there. This was all with no exercise at all and working a sedentary IT job. I felt great and it improved every aspect of my life. I stayed on it with 1-3 incidents of cheating (caramel machiato, piece of cheesecake, etc) and kept the weight off easily. What made me finally go off the rails was working an overnight cutover from one mainframe to another with a promise of a party tray from upper management. At 3 am and everyone starving, the secretary showed up with a bunch of pop and boxes of twinkies, hoho's, etc. I made the mistake of eating the shit until I was full and afterwards it was like I chugged a bottle of tequilla. After that it was like I was an addict and my body just craved carbs too much to reist. Contrary to what people said the weight was very slow to come back on after resuming a "normal" american diet. I'm about to start up the Atkins thing again myself.


Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.
NowhereMan
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Reply #386 on: June 05, 2011, 02:13:36 PM

I've seen people in the SA forums have good success with ketogenic. Then I've also seen people have good success with plain ol' low carb, Intermittent fasting and a whole slew of other diets. Ketogenic is (from what I've read) best if you're coming at this from being pretty overweight, largely on the assumption that your body's insulin responses are probably somewhat fucked by huge quantities of carbohydrates and blood sugar spikes. Aside from insulin sensitivity issues and whether or not it helps control that really the advantage of these diets is you shouldn't need to count calories as you're eating stuff that will fill you up and leave you feeling full. Of course that's all predicated on your body not wanting to eat too much and having a reasonable amount of willpower, it's entirely possible to eat yourself into ketosis and not lose weight. It's just not as easy as stuffing yourself with calorie dense carby stuff.

Have some crazy internet geeks talk about dieting That thread will have a ton more resources than I could ever be bothered to find and pass on but be aware that everyone there thinks low carb diets are The One True Diet and like anything where you aim to lose weight calories in v. calories out is going to be the deciding factor. Everything else is about what makes it easiest for you to get the balance on that you want.

"Look at my car. Do you think that was bought with the earnest love of geeks?" - HaemishM
JWIV
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Reply #387 on: June 05, 2011, 02:40:20 PM

I've known a few people to do Atkins - and had great success with it while on it.  The problem is, once they got off of it, they had never learned to maintain their weight with a healthy diet and instead went back to their old bad habits and ballooned back up.   So it works in the short term, but I'm not a big fan of it because of the long term failure.   

In general, I'm a big proponent of just general calorie counting, introducing exercise into your life, and gradually losing weight in such a way that helps enforce a lifestyle change.    Eat more greens and lean proteins, better carbs (real bread instead of processed white, brown rice over white, etc), less prepackaged foods.   
Nebu
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Reply #388 on: June 06, 2011, 05:20:11 AM

If you eliminate processed food, eat whole grains, lots of fruits & veg, and choose lean proteins, you almost don't even need to count calories.  Funny thing, after you've eaten healthy food for a month or two, you'll lose your taste for processed crap.  It really is just getting back to basics. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Sky
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Reply #389 on: June 06, 2011, 06:43:31 AM

If you eliminate processed food, eat whole grains, lots of fruits & veg, and choose lean proteins, you almost don't even need to count calories.  Funny thing, after you've eaten healthy food for a month or two, you'll lose your taste for processed crap.  It really is just getting back to basics.  
This, 1000%. I'm really not a believer in 'diets', though they can work in the short term for people. If you learn some basic nutrition, how to balance meals and sourcing, it's really all you need as far as intake goes. Then you need to adjust portions to fit lifestyle (calories out) and genetics.

I don't count calories at all, and follow exactly what Nebu outlined. I had a personal rule that Weight Watchers has recently adopted in their new strategy: fruit and veg don't count. I load my plate with the veg course every night and use that to fill up on. Snack on fruit all throughout the day.
ghost
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Reply #390 on: June 06, 2011, 06:50:57 AM

There's a big difference between a "diet" and having a healthy diet.  Dieting never works because people aren't making a life change.  They just want a quick fix to "get skinny" and then go back to living the way they did before the diet.

One of the best things that happened to me was finding out I'm celiac.  I don't have a choice, I can't eat most processed crap.  Generally if you stay on the outside rim of the grocery store you'll be fine-  fruits, vegetables and meats.  Another thing that people underestimate as far as impact on weight is the effect of sodas (diet and regular).  Cutting back to just water can really cut out a lot of calories. 
Sheepherder
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Reply #391 on: June 06, 2011, 07:57:59 AM

I don't know why anyone would drink diet soda in the first place.  Stuff always tastes like ass.
K9
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Reply #392 on: June 06, 2011, 08:41:02 AM

Thanks for the feedback. I'm not really overweight, I'm more looking to cut a few % of body fat since I have hit most of my current goals with lifting.

My main thought was how easy it is to roll in and out of keto, it seems like it can kick in very quick, and I'm not looking to drop that much weight, so I would probably only do it for a month or so. I wasn't sure how realistic/healthy/productive this would be though.

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Malakili
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Reply #393 on: June 06, 2011, 08:44:59 AM

Thanks for the feedback. I'm not really overweight, I'm more looking to cut a few % of body fat since I have hit most of my current goals with lifting.

My main thought was how easy it is to roll in and out of keto, it seems like it can kick in very quick, and I'm not looking to drop that much weight, so I would probably only do it for a month or so. I wasn't sure how realistic/healthy/productive this would be though.

What Nebu said is a good way to cutting down on body fat, and healthier as well.
Sky
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Reply #394 on: June 06, 2011, 08:46:20 AM

I don't know why anyone would drink diet soda in the first place.  Stuff always tastes like ass.
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Merusk
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Reply #395 on: June 06, 2011, 09:24:02 AM

I've been having to fight my wife so very, very, very hard on the processed food thing.  Sure, I'm guilty of it on a few fronts but damn, if we'd followed the eating habits she grew up with we'd be eating Rice-A-Roni, Chef Boyardee, Hamburger Helper ect every meal.

It's been a 14 year struggle and we're now down to just pastas and some meal fillers. (Oh, and Mac N Cheese. Making that from scratch every time we have a hankering takes too long.)  I won on getting whole grain pasta (finally) you just have to cook it a little longer than white flour pasta.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
ghost
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Reply #396 on: June 06, 2011, 09:30:05 AM

It's kind of amazing what the eating habits are of people our age, Merusk.  I know people that eat out for every single meal.  That is insane. 
K9
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Reply #397 on: June 06, 2011, 09:34:00 AM

Thanks for the feedback. I'm not really overweight, I'm more looking to cut a few % of body fat since I have hit most of my current goals with lifting.

My main thought was how easy it is to roll in and out of keto, it seems like it can kick in very quick, and I'm not looking to drop that much weight, so I would probably only do it for a month or so. I wasn't sure how realistic/healthy/productive this would be though.

What Nebu said is a good way to cutting down on body fat, and healthier as well.

The thing is, I don't eat much processed food, although perhaps that depends on what your definition of processed is. I could improve my diet in various ways; but none of them seem like they would offer dramatic changes in my body fat percentage.

I love the smell of facepalm in the morning
Sky
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Reply #398 on: June 06, 2011, 09:44:29 AM

I won on getting whole grain pasta (finally) you just have to cook it a little longer than white flour pasta.
We ate a box of regular pasta a short while ago, after a year of the whole grain wheat stuff. Turns out we both prefer the whole grain stuff for both flavor and texture, it's amazing how fast your palate can change.
Merusk
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Reply #399 on: June 06, 2011, 10:03:36 AM

It's kind of amazing what the eating habits are of people our age, Merusk.  I know people that eat out for every single meal.  That is insane. 

I know a few of those as well.  Well, single guys mainly.  I can't imagine doing that married w/ Kids. Ye gods, the cost alone would be insane.   We ate out Friday night after a miscommunication about when the Son's Cub Scout potluck was and that cost us $70 w/ tip.  That's what I normally spend per week on grocery staples (i.e. not when I have to restock chicken & beef)

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
MuffinMan
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Reply #400 on: June 06, 2011, 10:13:04 AM

My roommate eats Subway for lunch everyday and orders Domino's pizza every other night. I think he's going to die.

I'm very mysterious when I'm inside you.
JWIV
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Reply #401 on: June 06, 2011, 10:18:36 AM

Since it's apropos to the conversation - I just found out that my dad was apparently just classified pre-diabetic and that diabetes runs on his mother's side of the family.   Wonder when they were planning on telling me either of these things, since you know, it's not like diabetes is one of those things that family medical history might be a factor in.  Facepalm
Rasix
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Reply #402 on: June 06, 2011, 10:19:43 AM

My roommate eats Subway for lunch everyday and orders Domino's pizza every other night. I think he's going to die.

Sounds like college.

-Rasix
Furiously
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Reply #403 on: June 06, 2011, 12:33:34 PM

There's a big difference between a "diet" and having a healthy diet.  Dieting never works because people aren't making a life change.  They just want a quick fix to "get skinny" and then go back to living the way they did before the diet.

One of the best things that happened to me was finding out I'm celiac.  I don't have a choice, I can't eat most processed crap.  Generally if you stay on the outside rim of the grocery store you'll be fine-  fruits, vegetables and meats.  Another thing that people underestimate as far as impact on weight is the effect of sodas (diet and regular).  Cutting back to just water can really cut out a lot of calories. 

I think I discovered Udi's too soon or something. (That and the gluten free bakery down the road from me).

ghost
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Reply #404 on: June 06, 2011, 12:38:23 PM

Yeah, there's an awesome gluten free place in San Antonio as well.  I lost about 20 pounds by cutting out gluten though, so I can't bitch too much. 
DraconianOne
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Reply #405 on: June 06, 2011, 02:18:16 PM

I changed my diet earlier this year - mostly to lose a load of weight I'd piled on over winter. Normally, I just do sensible eating (calorie counting to a certain extent) and exercise but it wasn't really doing it this time. I ended up reading about a slow-carb diet as popularised by Tim Ferriss in his Four-Hour Body book.

Essentially it's a low-GI diet but cuts out any white carbs or carbs that can be white - so no potatoes, no rice (wholemeal, brown or otherwise), no pasta (same), no bread (same), keep to lean meats and avoid dairy and fruit. Do this 6 days a week and go mental on the 7th day with whatever you like. Because you can eat as much veg, pulses and beans as you like, it's not ketogenic but, the theory goes, switching to slow energy release carbs is pretty much the same. Also, loads of veg = healthy. The downside is that you are best taking calcium tablets as the diet does lack in that.

This all got reinforced for me a little more when I read totally unrelated nutrition research in relation to ultramarathon training and how to condition your body to use fat resources as energy more efficiently rather than carbs when exercising under the anaerobic threshold.

It worked for me - I shed the weight and felt great. Diet's gone a little haywire over the last couple of weeks (mostly owing to moving house) but my training has amped up for a race in a couple of months so that's kept it off. Trying to switch back to it now to get sorted for end of July.

YMMV - and everybody on the internet is an expert.

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Sheepherder
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Reply #406 on: June 06, 2011, 06:33:58 PM

My main thought was how easy it is to roll in and out of keto, it seems like it can kick in very quick, and I'm not looking to drop that much weight, so I would probably only do it for a month or so.

I would assume that after a few weeks of eating almost nothing but fat that the act of taking a shit would be enough to drive one to suicide.
angry.bob
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Reply #407 on: June 06, 2011, 10:25:58 PM

I would assume that after a few weeks of eating almost nothing but fat that the act of taking a shit would be enough to drive one to suicide.

You can eat a lot of stuff that's high in fiber since it's indigestible. Even during the two week induction phase there are vegetables you can eat. Celery and Broccolli if I remember correctly. Anyway if you mix what you're eatng and include the veggies taking a dump is per normal. Now the peple who just eat a pound of colby cheese, eggs, and red meat on the otherhand I don't even want to think about.

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Jimbo
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Reply #408 on: June 07, 2011, 01:39:38 PM

I've always done a combination of low fat, low calorie diet, then increased my cardio, but maintained other components of the exercise triad (cardio, strength, flexibility).  Increasing fiber helps curb my appetite, along with small frequent meals, which is great if I'm not working, damn 12 hour shifts at night screw up my diet big time ( I know, I know, better planning on my part would make that easier, but working 4 nights a week every other week takes it toll).

Wonderful weather here in Indiana right now!  Hot and humid, so walking/jogging or bicycling is awesome work outs, just have to stay hydrated  cool
NowhereMan
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Reply #409 on: June 09, 2011, 06:23:16 AM

I've always done a combination of low fat, low calorie diet, then increased my cardio, but maintained other components of the exercise triad (cardio, strength, flexibility).  Increasing fiber helps curb my appetite, along with small frequent meals, which is great if I'm not working, damn 12 hour shifts at night screw up my diet big time ( I know, I know, better planning on my part would make that easier, but working 4 nights a week every other week takes it toll).

Wonderful weather here in Indiana right now!  Hot and humid, so walking/jogging or bicycling is awesome work outs, just have to stay hydrated  cool

Intermittent Fasting seems to be pretty popular with people looking to control their calorie intake with schedules that make lots of small meals impractical, the basic idea being that you have an 8 or 4 hour window a day in which you take on board all your calories in one or two big meals. There's more to it in terms of the sort of foods you should be taking and when you break your fast, etc. but apparently after a week or two your body gets pretty comfortable with not eating for 16 hours and it makes paying attention to your calories much simpler since you just don't snack at all. There's no danger of losing track of what you've been munching on. Not sure how many of the people that have success with this are doing intense stuff during the fasting period though and even if it does work well it would probably result in a week or so of shifts from hell.

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Sky
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Reply #410 on: June 09, 2011, 06:57:07 AM

Wouldn't that encourage fat storage?

I snack all day long, my doc wanted me to take some tetracycline and technically it wants a 3-hour window where I don't eat. I realized I don't have one! Lots of small, low cal snacks all day long (I have to avoid almonds, they're packed with cals and I mang on them) with a few reasonable meals, body never feels the need to build up fat stores. Trying to get over my one bad habit - late night snacks where I input a hundred calories that has no place to burn off.
Nebu
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Reply #411 on: June 09, 2011, 07:42:24 AM

Wouldn't that encourage fat storage?

Yes. 

Intermittent fasting is a terrible idea.  It produces uneven blood sugar levels that mess with normal metabolism.  Done frequently enough, it will cause the metabolic system to shift, reducing basal metabolic rate.  It is far superior to eat 5-6 small meals per day.  Even just three meals is superior.

Two keys that will be the greatest help are a) eat when you get up in the morning to start your furnace burning and b) avoid eating within an hour of bedtime. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
bhodi
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Reply #412 on: June 09, 2011, 07:51:32 AM

I snack all day long, my doc wanted me to take some tetracycline and technically it wants a 3-hour window where I don't eat.
This is, if I recall, because it binds with iron, making it less or completely ineffective. You can work around that by eating it with foods with low iron :)
ghost
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Reply #413 on: June 09, 2011, 01:45:10 PM

Wouldn't that encourage fat storage?

Yes. 

Intermittent fasting is a terrible idea.  It produces uneven blood sugar levels that mess with normal metabolism.  Done frequently enough, it will cause the metabolic system to shift, reducing basal metabolic rate.  It is far superior to eat 5-6 small meals per day.  Even just three meals is superior.

Two keys that will be the greatest help are a) eat when you get up in the morning to start your furnace burning and b) avoid eating within an hour of bedtime. 

Just like that dude that ate a Twinkie 6 times a day to get his 1500 calories and lost something ridiculous like 100 pounds.
MuffinMan
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Reply #414 on: June 09, 2011, 02:55:49 PM

I'm surprised a Twinkie diet isn't sweeping the nation right now.

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Cyrrex
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Reply #415 on: June 11, 2011, 06:57:14 PM

I'm surprised a Twinkie diet isn't sweeping the nation right now.

By looking at most Americans, I think maybe it actually is sweeping the nation.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Furiously
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Reply #416 on: June 13, 2011, 07:35:09 PM

I started the 17 day diet last week and am down nine lbs.

It's interesting to look at how much unhealthy food I like.

Goumindong
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Reply #417 on: June 14, 2011, 12:22:06 AM

Wouldn't that encourage fat storage?


Depends on what you eat and how long you fast. If you eat carbs its going to be terrible. Your body will store fat and eat muscle.

If you eat proteins and fats you're probably OK. Since your body can take a longer time to metabolize them.

The longer you fast and the more protein/fat in your diet the better it is for you in terms of weight.

If you're going to fast though its much better to do a weekly fast. You need to fast long enough for your body to kick start into "time to burn excess energy mode". [It is also good for people who have food allergies that they cannot avoid]
Nebu
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Reply #418 on: June 14, 2011, 05:26:55 AM

Depends on what you eat and how long you fast. If you eat carbs its going to be terrible. Your body will store fat and eat muscle.

If you eat proteins and fats you're probably OK. Since your body can take a longer time to metabolize them.

The longer you fast and the more protein/fat in your diet the better it is for you in terms of weight.

If you're going to fast though its much better to do a weekly fast. You need to fast long enough for your body to kick start into "time to burn excess energy mode". [It is also good for people who have food allergies that they cannot avoid]

I take issue with nearly every one of your points, but don't want to Bruce your post. 

I will never encourage people to eat high protein & fat diets.  a) Too many tissues require glucose as a primary fuel source and b) protein takes a lot of water to metabolize and most people don't drink nearly enough water.  The key is to maintain a healthy caloric intake, get adequate exercise, and eat a diet rich in fiber and complex cabs (to minimize insulin spikes).  Fasting is a terrible solution unless your doing it to clean your colon.  Drastic cuts in daily caloric intake will drop your BMR through the floor in a matter of days and initiate muscle scavenging which is also counterproductive. 

Your body is less likely to initiate a "burn excess energy mode" and more likely to initiate an "Oh shit, we have no food so slow the engine to make what we have last as long as possible".  Also ketoacidosis isn't a good thing.   

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Goumindong
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Reply #419 on: June 14, 2011, 05:55:17 AM

I should have clarified. I meant "once a week" fast not "fast for a whole week".

Your body does not need enough glucose as a primary source to justify not eating a diet high in protein and fat. Though this depends on your definition of "high". Yes, exclusion can be problematic. Yes a diet high in fiber is good. This does not mean that a regimented fast does not necessitate weight gain.
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