f13.net

Otherwise known as "Looking for random internet partner(s) to undergo excruciating pain and misery with, as well as push each other to completion".

Possibly it was a not so subtle hint from my wife that I needed to get my flabby rear back into shape, but this was one of my Christmas gifts.  Possibly it was revenge for getting her a Dyson vacuum cleaner a couple years ago for Christmas.  In my defense, SHE WANTED THE DAMN THING!!  No, apparently, I still don't know women.

Will be starting next Monday Jan 12th.  I'm waiting on some workout gear that I ordered to arrive, so I have a week left of laziness.  If you can't afford it, you know where to find it.  It will take a while, but you'll get it.  Also, the documents are available also.  If you can't find the docs, I'll type up the workout schedule and email it to you.  The diet is a bit big to type up, so, there's not much I can do there.  Unfortunately, I just don't have time to do it otherwise I would.

Anyway, what is absolutely required:
Door chinup/pull up bar (resistance bands can be used in lieu of bar).  This bar (http://www.amazon.com/Maximum-Muscle-Doorway-Gym-Ultimate/dp/B001LA1JX0/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&s=sporting-goods&qid=1231126670&sr=1-11) or similar, these bands (http://www.amazon.com/Covered-Resistance-Exercise-Packages-include/dp/B001DC45IW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=sporting-goods&qid=1231126764&sr=1-1) or similar.
Dumb bells adjustable or up to 50 lbs each (resistance bands can be used in lieu of db's)
Solid chair that allows for your knees to obtain a 90 degree angle, and feet flat on the floor.  This will be used in weight exercises as well to assist you in pull ups (if needed).

Recommended:
Push up bars (http://www.amazon.com/DayBreak-Fitness-Push-Up-Bars/dp/B000LNF92K/ref=pd_bbs_12?ie=UTF8&s=sporting-goods&qid=1231126940&sr=8-12) (easier on hands, wrist and isolate the muscles better)
Yoga mat, bricks (http://www.amazon.com/Valeo-VA4491PU-Yoga-Kit/dp/B0007IS71Y/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=sporting-goods&qid=1231127041&sr=1-3) (mostly for comfort).  Will also be used in plyometrics.

Since receiving it, I've messed around with some of the vids.  Totally kicked my ass, but in a good way.  I didn't go 100 percent with it, as it was mostly just to see how the vids played out and get a feel for some of the yoga/plyo/kenpo moves, which is something I've never done before.  Fun, but definately hard.  He's a bit cheesy, but in a good way.  Does a good job of keeping you motivated.  All that said, I'd say if you can't honestly pass the initial fit test, don't do it.  If you have a history of back issues, I'd definately stay away.

If anyone is interested, I figure we can update here or PMs or whatever you feel most comfortable.  I'm 50/50 in posting before/after pictures of my ugly mug.  Nothing like constructive criticism at the outset from the peanut gallery to keep ya going  :drill:

/Jerry McGuire Who's coming with me!?!

This is the thing they did for the Spartans in 300 right? I watched some of it. It's fucking scary. Much as I'd like to do it, my body is... afraid.

We talked about that once (I think) when you told me about your diet thing.  I don't know, to be honest. 

Wouldn't surprise me if it was.

[Edit] You could probably do it, just a modified version with less weight at the beginning/first time around.  I'm pretty confident you could find it if you wanted to, so that said, let me know and I'll send you the workout schedule/rotation.

Your avatar needs a new hair style.

What.

The infamous "300 workout" was, to my knowledge, a timed gauntlet style workout that wasn't actually used on a daily basis or anything.

I'm also pretty sure that their nutritional coach strongly recommended "B12 shots".

I think you missed the point about the Dyson, but that's neither here nor there...

The diet book is actually quite nice.  It gives you exactly what and how much you should eat and when during the regimine, as well as recipes.  The plan is to follow it as close as possible, but I entertain clients pretty regularly (or am treated by others in the biz) so that's going to be a true commitment test for me.  I don't drink much (if at all) anymore, so alcohol won't be an issue.  The only supplements I'll be using are what are recommended on the diet plan; which is really nothing more than a protein bar and shakes for mid meal snacks.

I'm lucky enough that I drop weight fairly fast, even at my age.  The problem is my own bad eating habits, as well as spending 10 hrs a day at a desk.  Most of which is work, some of which is gaming.

Really, really looking forward to it though.  More than anything, it's something I can do from home on my own time.  And it will be something I can do in the interim until I can get a decent home gym together in our new house, which is something I didn't have in our old house.  Going to a gym just isn't in the cards for me in that I value my family time, especially that time after I get off work and spend a couple hours with my son before he goes to sleep at 8 pm.  Morning times and after work is 'our' time, so a workout at home is the best option for me.

Well, I'm fairly quick to bitch about women.

It's good that it comes with a diet book, though.

If you don't have a lot of time for family, could you have your wife join in, in a common area to be around your son as well (I don't know how old your son is)?

Heh.  He's two.  I don't think he's quite ready for the squat machine.

I love P90X.

I didn't mean have him join in as well, just have him in the same area? I don't know how your family operates, so I don't know if this sounds crazy or not.

We do everything together, but jumping around and lifting weights probably isn't the best thing for him to be around.  He'll want to get in on the 'fun' and such.  After he saw me using the push up bars, bless his heart, he tried doing the same thing.  He's all about doing what daddy does, and I'm scared I might fall or drop something on him or something.  So, best thing for now, is to wait until he goes to bed.

Makes sense.

Tried it for about 4 weeks. Eventually Wrath of the Lich King hit along with the Holidays and, well, that was it for P90X.

I'm going to go back to exercising Jan 5th but I'm going to just do simple stuff and not the fucking torture fest that was P90X.

I'll do it. I'll be genuinely surprised if it works better than ps2+rpgs+bycicle.

Pansy....DO IT!!  Or rather...BRING IT!!


Do you need any of the workout information?

Nope. Got everything.

No matter how much she wants an appliance, don't get it as a Christmas/Birthday/Anniversary/Valentines gift.  Make it a weekend "Hey honey, let's go get the vacuum you've been wanting" trip.  Fiscally it costs more.  Emotionally you win.  And you don't get exercise equipment for Christmas.

Note: If your sweetheart is really into capentry, mechanics, or such then some things might be appropriate.  Don't count on it though.

I already workout like a madman, but would be willing to try something new to change things up. 

1) Do you have a link that outlines the EXACT workout that you are doing? 

2) Do you have some metrics that you'd like to compare to motivate people?

3) I'm an old fucker, but I'd be willing to put my ability up against any of you youngins.  My bodyfat % has hit double digits for the first time in years and I'm pissed off enough by it to really hit this hard.

Oh... I'm sick of running in the rain and am looking for a good treadmill if anyone has any suggestions.

1)  No links, unfortunately.  However, it's not just 'do 2x12 curls', you actually have to go along with the vid at their pace.  The chest and back vid alternated between various forms of pushups to pull ups and back and forth all the way (rest one side, immediately work the other/alternating muscle groups).
2)  Not offhand, more than anything, it's Tony Horton barking at  you on screen  Scratch that.  Just re-read what you said.  Not really.  But open to suggestions?  It's a bit hard to compare gains (or loss as the case may be) since we're all different and starting at different points.  My gains/loses would be much higher than your since you're already in good shape?  But yeah, am open to suggestions.
3)  Old fucker vs youngins?  Hardly?  I'm on the bad side of 35, my friend.

I do a fairly standard 5x5 resistance workout, personally. I've been going to my current gym regularly since September, which is more or less shortly after I got my shit in order after moving.

On resistance days:

• Stretch
• 1 km run @ 12-14 kph, minimum 5 minutes OR 5 minutes rowing (moderate pace)
• THEN, in random order, though staggered so the upper-body exercises are spaced out by lower-body ones:
• 5x5 Squats
• 5x5 Deadlift
• 5x5 Benchpress (bar or dumbbell, varies)
• 3x8 pullups, aiming for 3x10 soon
• 5x5 military/overhead press (bar or dumbbell)
• 5x5 Bent-over Row (bar or dumbbell)
• Finally, a cooldown stretch

Sometimes I'll do a couple minute-long straight-arm hangs before the cooldown stretch to improve my rock climbing grip endurance.

Then on cardio days I'll one out of a number of different things:

* Crazy-ass intervals on a bike for minimum 20 minutes (maybe beyond, until exhaustion). Wouldn't call them high-intensity but I'm usually wiped after 15-20 minutes of these. I do these on a 1-3 split: 15 seconds high speed, 45 seconds moderate speed.

* 5 kilometer run, with a strategy of jogging the first quarter-KM around 10.5-11 kph and then running the other three-quarters KM around 12.5-13 kph. My best so far is 24m40s.

* 30 minute run, pushing speed up as high as possible for as long as possible (usually a few minutes at 14-15 kph), then dropping down to a 30sec walk, then back up to a 1minute jog around 10kph.

* 15 minute run, as close to flat-out as possible, followed by a 5 minute rest, followed by 15 minutes of rowing.

I switch this up so much because Just Running or Just Biking is just too boring. I don't have an iPod or anything, so I tend to just stare into the darkness outside the windows and get absorbed into my own thoughts.

On the days where I don't get rides (most of them), these are bookended by 1.5km walks to/from the gym, which make for nice warmups/cooldowns. I end up doing resistance 3 times a week, cardio twice a week, rock climbing once a week, and then full rest for the final day, with the corollary that I never do resistance or cardio two days in a row.

I do it mostly because it keeps me sane, and because it's a fun challenge. It's a pretty sweet rush whenever I crank up one of my weights or break a 5K time record.

And, yes, I'm a young fucker. :-)

Bah... I hate proproetary workouts.  There's nothing revolutionary out there, just new versions of old stuff.  I guess I'll just stick with going to the free weight room 5 days a week.  

If you still want to keep in touch, I'll be happy to compare my methods with yours to help us both keep motivated.  

Buy an iPod shuffle (http://www.apple.com/ipodshuffle/).  It's small and holds a ton of music.  Best workout investment I've ever made.

or just buy any non-apple mp3 player. It's smaller, cheaper, and 1gig is more than enough. Plus, you don't have to mess with that accursed iTunes thingie.

Young one here. Current workout is nonexistant. Has been for the last 6 months. 20% body fat. I'll haxx if my muscles stay sore for more than 24 hours.

You'll have muscle soreness for the first two weeks and then find that it goes away.  Your body is a pretty amazing machine and will adapt to whatever torture you put it through.  The key is to make sure that you drink enough water and have a good diet.  Of course, proper sleep is a must as well.

My wife picked up a treadmill from a gym that was upgrading, it's real heavy duty and has lasted years (6 now). It requires 220v though, so might require some additional electrical work to put one in. After seeing the cheap ass crap they charge thousands for at the sporting goods store, this is the way to go.

Haha, no.
Done this starting again after a period of inactivity thing several times before. The secret to avoiding (or greatly diminishing) muscle soreness lies in chemistry. Good diet, psh, nonsense.

Well... I am a phd medicinal chemist that went to med school.  I may know a thing or two that could help.   :grin:

I knew it.  :awesome_for_real:

It's actually a good bit of fun.  As I mentioned, I started messing around with it to get familiar with it, also to help alleviate some of the soreness that will inevitably hit me once I go full throttle.  The vids are 52ish minutes long; you're never stopping for never more than a minute.  Your heartrate gets up and stays there.

But yeah, let's definately keep up.  



Puff puff give.  What are you taking?

Since I love lists:

1) The only supplements I've ever used with regularity are a multi-vitamin. I do this to ensure that I have proper B vitamin intake per day.  It's amazing how vital B vitamins are for proper biochemical function. Also, make sure that your vitamin E, A, and iron don't exceed 100% daily.  Too much iron + vitamin C make a powerful pro-oxidant combination... which is bad. Similarly, your liver stores excess fat soluble (ADEK) vitamins... also bad. 

2) Water.  This and milk are the only liquids I consume with regularity though I do still have a diet coke fettish.  Never drink your fruits and vegetables, you miss all the good stuff. 

3) I eat a protein bar or drink a protein shake 20-30 minutes before each workout to ensure that I have high serum protein levels during the workout. 

4) Try your best to only eat high quality, whole grain carbs.  Processed food is the devil. Similarly go for high protein, low fat proteins.  I keep my daily food intake to about 1800 calories and less than 30g of fat.  I also eat 5-6 small meals a day to keep the furnace burning.

5) Body for Life (http://www.amazon.com/Body-Life-Mental-Physical-Strength/dp/0060193395) is the best fitness manual I've found.  Some great suggestions for workouts and diet. 

6) Build muscle to increase basal metabolic rate.  At least 3 workouts per week should increase muscle mass.

7) Do aerobic activity to promote cardiovascular health. Again, at least 3 x 20-30 mins per week. 

8) Modify your routine every 8-10 weeks.  Your body will adjust to torture, so you need to keep it guessing for maximal results.

Hope this helps.

Good info, thanks.  I was mostly curious as to what you're using/taking for soreness.

I really don't have much soreness unless I work anaerobically for extended periods (post glucose depletion).  In those first few weeks of a new workout regiment or times where I'm trying to up my max I tend to use naproxen (trade name: aleve) if I feel I really need something to get past the soreness due to inflammation. 

It's probably not available unless you live in the Northeast US, but up here in Iceland we have what is probably some of the best workout food ever. It's called skyr, and it's basically a type of cheese made from skim milk. It has the consistency of yogurt and the following nutrition per 100g:

71 kcals
13.5g protein
3.3g carbohydrates
0.5g fat
0.28mg (18% recommended daily intake) Vitamin B2
103mg (13% recommended daily intake) calcium
175mg (22% recommended daily intake) phosphorus

A 500g tub of this stuff is roughly $1-$1.50 up here. I chow down on a full 500g tub after each workout for a nice 60+ grams of whole animal protein. There's flavored varieties, but those mostly just add a whole shitton of sugar and some fruit or vanilla extract.

I've heard there's a US brand that's sold at some Whole Foods and similar hippie stores, so it might be much pricier over there.

I don 't mind appliances for any occasion.  I still get misty-eyed thinking about the day Righ gave me my Dyson.  I love it.  Lots.  Now he's bought me a nice computer.  Is that an appliance?  Anyway - it's nice.  Maybe for Easter he'll buy me an egg cooker and a bunny.  I'd love a bunny.  Hopefully my giant ginger pussy won't eat it.

The carbs and protein account for 20g. What's the other 80?

And it tastes like shit. But I haven't seen many travel channels praise Iceland for good tasting food.

Cod!  That's what they eat in Iceland.  Do they eat anything else?  Dunno but I could live on cod.  I love cod.  God, I can't stop saying cod. 

Cod.

It sounds very similar to cottage cheese but with yogurt cultures.  Non-fat cottage cheese has very similar proportions of protein to fat and carbs.

Water. It's goopy, like yogurt.


Kinda tastes like that, but milder and smoother. It's actually really good if you blend in some fruit or (my favorite) a drop of 100% pure maple syrup; the flavor of the skyr itself is pretty light, so it tends to get mostly subsumed by whatever you put in it.

For real? Of have I fallen into the sarchasm?

"Body for Life" I could use a good fitness book. However a google search on the author shows he acquired his reputation and fortune writing a magazine about steroids use. Which raises doubt in my mind.

I had a third thing, but I forgot.

Sadly, yes.  Too many years in school for my pathetic paycheck.

As for Body for life, I like it because it greatly simplifies the workout.  3 days of weights, 3 days of aerobic training, and a solid food guide.  If you want to save $20, you can easily find all the same information online.  www.bodybuilding.com has some useful information and also some cheap protein powder and bars. 

I pretty much summarized the book in my points, but omitted the specifics of the workouts and the nutrition guide. 

Got everything ready and a-waiting. HURRY.

Waiting on the pull up bar, which should be here today or tomorrow.  Otherwise, I'm ready to go.

Target and Amazon are selling the Iron Gym (http://www.amazon.com/Iron-Gym-Total-Upper-Workout/dp/B001EJMS6K) pullup bars pretty cheap.  I bought one a few weeks back and use it daily.  It's been pretty stable and a nice way to work lats, shoulders, and biceps a bit more after a run.  I paid like $20 for one and I'm pretty happy with it.  I made some elbow straps and also use it for extra stomach work.

Holy crap, Nebu. What are you, Bruce Lee? Complaining about double digits..

I've slimmed down quite a bit recently, and I'm still in "double digits" (at 11.8%).


I've looked into the P90X thing before, but I don't really want to bulk up. I probably haven't been in as good of shape since I was 19 or 20 or so (back in highschool, I was a damn preying mantis.. after school, I packed on a few pounds.. but then it went out of control for awhile.. then sort of average.. and now back where I am now).

Up until I hit 38, I was 6', 205 lbs and about 6-8% body fat.  Chicks dug the washboard. 

Now that I'm into my 40's, I lift 5 days a week  (3 days upper body splits, 2 days legs/abs), run 5 days (mixed mileage and fartlek training), ride my stationary bike 5 days (not always the same days), and play basketball 3 days a week.  I just can't seem to get below about 12% anymore.  It's pissing me off.  I think I may be closer to 14% right now and I'm cutting hard over the next 6 weeks to see what will happen. 

So all that fitness, and you're a scientist.. Does your name happen to be Gordon Freeman by any chance? Haha

[edit] I'm scrawny in comparison (6'4" and a ghastly 175 now.).. I could probably benefit from something like this and get to 200 (in a proper way), but honestly, I'm happy the way I am now. If nobody likes it, they can go fuck themselves -- in the end, that's the real key to fitness right there  :-P.

That's 100% correct.  I workout because I like the feel of a tight body.  Vanity helps in those times when I don't want to run, but it's hardly my primary motivation.  With my luck, I'll still die from a heart attack at 50. 

5'10" and 225 right now.  Though I'm lucky to have the frame to carry it.  Anything below 180, and I look all kinds of funky.  My ears poke out and the nickname 'Radar' comes to mind.

Funny anecdote: When I was at 6% body fat, my GP told me that I was 25 pounds overweight during a physical.  I laughed and asked him why.  He stated that, according to a BMI chart, I should weigh 175 - 180 for being 6' tall. 

I got a new physician the next day. 

BMI has also seemed a crock to me, but is still there and going strong as a concept.  Cripes.

So, are we "fat blogging" or not?  I'll join in but I don't want to spend any coin on this offering (got my own gear).

Wow.

By the way, I didn't mean any offense by that. I just mean we should all do what makes us happy in the end. It's madness worrying about what other people think.

I suppose you got that though. :-)

No offense taken.  I was agreeing with you that the whole point of working out beside the health benefits is to make yourself happy.  Fuck what others think!

I always put on weight over the winter and go back to the gym after the Superbowl.  Then I work out and diet, drop the weight then I end up hurting my knee/elbow AGAIN and then slack off for the summer.

I am starting to hate the new year.

Every January, at whatever university I happen to be faculty at, it's the same story: the first 3 weeks that school is back in session the gym is PACKED with idiots on their new year's resolution.  By week 4, they've all mysteriously vanished after they realize it takes dedication and commitment.  I really hate the gym in January!

Hence going back after the superbowl.

(http://www.loosetooth.com/Numo/pics/numo080107closeup.jpg)
Really?

Starting monday.

Yup yup.  Good to go. 

Did some reading on this program and it looks like you guys are in for a great workout.  Best of luck to everyone involved.  I'm going to be doing it the usual way in the gym and on the road. 

I hope that you post some updates.  I'd like to hear your reactions monthly.

That's the plan (monthly update, or if something goes awry (injury, whatever)).

I'm actually planning on taking a daily picture wearing the same thing from the same distance everytime and putting it together in day 1 to day 90 montage video or something.  Will be interesting to see a 90 day transformation in a 30 second spot.

They recommend half naked. Right Said, Fred.  :grin:

Thinking about weekly updates. We'll see.

The key to any excersize program is just doing it.

Haha.  I should clarify I wasn't going to post a daily picture here.  Maybe a start and end when it's all said and done.

Post a picture of the Stay Puft Marhsmallow Man followed by a picture of 80s governator.

What's your view on supplements like CLA?


This too.

(http://dl-client.getdropbox.com/u/39720/celebrities/arnold%20schwarzenegger/1186376620089.jpg) (http://dl-client.getdropbox.com/u/39720/celebrities/arnold%20schwarzenegger/staypuft_marshmallow_man.jpg)

am i doin it rite?

Snake oil.  Eat right and you won't need any supplements.  If you are a picky eater or can't afford to eat right, a multivitamin will be more than sufficient assuming you are getting the proper amount and proportion of fat/carb/protein.   

If you want to discuss the merits of any particular supplement, I'll be happy to go into biochemical detail.  I just ask that you start a new thread so as not to derail this one.

Just got done with disk 1 (chest/back, ab ripper x).  Holy cow I'm whipped.  It is unreal how much atrophy my abs have suffered from sitting at a desk for far too long.

That said, the good:
Managed to keep up better than I thought I would.
Did the exercises at my own pace, but didn't stop unless they stopped

The bad:
I've got a looong ways to go, but am optimistic and looking forward to it.  So I guess that's a good as well.

The ugly:
The pre-fight measurements:  Weight 222, Chest 46", Waist (measure around the belly button) 42", Hips 43", R Thigh 23", L Thigh 22.5", R Arm (middle of bicep) 15.5", L Arm 15.0", Neck 18.5"

And just in case you don't want to see fat assed middle aged white guy

Good luck man. No retreat, no surrender!  :grin:

Well done.

Don't give up.  There will be times that you want to. 

Best tip I can give for the food part of the program: if you start feeling hungry, drink a glass of water.  Early on the body sometimes confuses thirst impulses for hunger. 

Many thanks.

I read that somewhere a good while ago (thirst = hunger sensation).  That's pretty much what I've made up my mind to do.  I'm following the diet as closely as possible, so hoping for good results. 

I don't expect to go from fat ass to Mens Health cover ready, though.

Measurements in non heathen systems:
78kg, 184cm
Chest 104cm, Waist 92, Hips 94, RT 50, LT 49, RA 36, LA 35

Day 1

"Push ups?  :oh_i_see: 25. Bah"
"Oh, wide chin ups, that should be easy" *does 12* yup. easy.
"Some other kind of push ups? HAHA. ...and 5, 6..............7.....................fuck"
"Fuck."
"Fuck."
"Shit."
"DIAMOND PUSH UPS?  :ye_gods:
and repeat, only with more swearing and sweating.
Ab Ripper was fun. Got to that hand moving ab thing by the end, had never seen it before, Maxie twist or something. That was a quick "oh god kill me quick" thing.

Half naked pics with 13 year old shorts coming tomorrow.

Haha, nice bro.  Keep it up and good luck!

On a side note, the diet has made me, well, slightly gassy.  So much so the dog looks at me occasionally with a face of 'Dont EVEN think about blaming that on me"

I've had the privilege of being a Personal Trainer for the past few years.  If you need any advice, I'd be more than happy to help you on your quest to shape up!

- Night

Heh. Usually it takes at  least 24 hours for me to start feeling muscle soreness after a workout.
Been 12 hours now and my triceps are completely shot  :awesome_for_real:
Plyo today should be fun   :heart:

Delayed-onset muscle soreness is bad news, after the initial breaking-in period at least.

Triceps are some of the most neglected muscles, I think.. Would be natural to feel some pain there early on.

I thought THIS (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/tiffany_forni.htm) story might motivate you.  Pretty amazing transformation.

Screw you guys, and your crazy workouts, I flashed my first 5.11 last night :)

I picked up that detachable pullup bar from last page; it was $40 and so far I really like it. A few pullups on the way to the bathroom a few times a day, plus doing stuff on my offdays should be interesting to see. Yes, it's not a real workout, I realize that. Better than nothing! :)

Tell me more about not drinking your fruits and veggies. I assume this excludes smoothies? I'm pretty addicted to smoothies, especially fruit smoothies. My favorite is strawberry banana; 1 cup lowfat strawberry yogurt, 1 banana, 6 strawberries and a cup of apple juice. Blend with ice and enjoy. No, it's not SUPER healthy with all that sugar but it beats the hell out of soda. I haven't found a good vegetable smoothie that I like yet; I don't care overmuch for tomatoes but I do like and will drink carrot juice.

It's fine as an alternative but not ideal.  Considering your use as an alternative, I'd say it's an improvement in diet and something I'd support.

Now, if you wanted to know the best way to eat fruits/veggies, I'd say that eating it as it occurs naturally is far superior for a variety of reasons.  It's a relative thing. 

If you don't really like veggies, just chow them down with some dip. I'd sure as hell prefer that before a veggie drink.

The problem with 'drinking' your food, is that humans have an innate desire to chew things.  I can imagine that's true, and after a while it would be a bit, I dunno...weird.

There's also theory that food that is chewed is harder to digest than food that is 'drank', thus more calories are expended.  Or something.  Don't necessary buy that, but there ya go.

I generally stick to water, V8 with loads of pepper and tabasco, and OJ that's been watered down by about 50 percent.  Not drinking southern style sweet tea is KILLING me, however.

Edit:  How cow at that girl in Nebu's link.

Wow, that's ridiculous. I mean, I prefer chewing veggies, but I doubt that makes much of a difference in calorie burning. That's the kind of maniacal shit I'd expect from OCD fitness types though, who measure things to a T. You're only burning like 15 calories in a minute, going at a steady pace on a cycle. I would think that "chewing" food is extremely negligible.

The same thing was said about Tabasco in foods.  Hot foods cause the body to heat up and sweat, expending more calories.  That's not why I do it, I like the taste of spicy tomato juice / bloody mary mix.

But yeah, there's some really whacked out weird stuff out there.

Since you have a pullup bar at home, you might want to do some straight-arm hangs during the day as well. I do them after my workouts, more or less randomly. Just grab the bar and hang with your arms almost fully straight (not locked, but also not really flexing the arms/shoulders), try to hold it for a minute.

If you can do that no problem, try doing it with just one arm. I also vary it by sometimes just gripping with fingertips, sometimes with the first joint, second joint, etc.

Since I can only get out to the climbing gym once or twice a week up here, these are really necessary to keep my grip and forearm endurance up. Also, my gym only has bouldering - there's no tall walls up here. Outdoor climbing is great, but only possible a few months out of the year.

Grats on the 5.11 by the way; that's roughly the level I was at before I moved and ceased being able to do anything taller than bouldering frequently. It only gets harder and more awesome from there.

Are you leading yet?

I'd say kill the apple juice, it should be sweet enough with the other fruits, and you'll be cutting a lot of sugar out of that drink.  There is no problem about juicing your fruits and vegetables, just don't drink V8.  :P

Well, it's more about trying to pack the calories in. They aren't the best calories, but they are better than nothing. I have trouble eating a lot - fast metabolism + small stomach. So whenever I eat at meals I try and drink something with calories. I have read I can replace the apple juice and the yogurt with 2% milk, which I'll probably try this week. I need to gain weight in the worst way and it's a pain just to maintain for me much less actually gain. I've stepped up my workouts recently and have started doing some focused exercises in addition to my regular tri-weekly climbs (which aren't really workouts, but wishful thinking makes them such).

What I really lack is a good way of doing vegetables. I'm pretty limited since I don't cook and I tend to eat fast food for probably 4 meals a week (total - either for lunch or dinner one day) which I know doesn't help. I do it pretty much for convienience. I do try to get fairly healthy stuff, though, generally grilled chicken or a salad - but all the meals generally come with fries and there are no vegetables to be found anywhere (considering I dislike tomato). I'll snack on fruit easily enough but veggies other than cucumber just aren't appetizing raw.

Yoru: yep, I'm doing the hangs as well randomly. All the standard climbing stuff. I passed my lead climb test a few weeks ago, but I'm not comfortable leading on anything harder than a 5.9 - it's too stressful. I thought I had cracked my fear of heights (one of the reasons I started climbing) but it came back with a vengeance with no rope above you and knowing there's 10+ feet of rope in the system when you go to clip, and that you could take a fall, a real fall, just messes with my head.

Oh, I've also discovered the best thing, ever. You never forget to take your multivitamins when they are...
(http://www.filedump.net/dumped/img01861231961774.jpg)
Gummy Vites!

Nice man. Leading is pretty much where it's at. It opens up a lot of stuff outdoors, and at my old gym there were a full two walls that were lead-only with some real interesting features and technical stuff.

Those ropeless jitters get better, but not by a whole lot. Maybe once you've been doing it a few years; I know I'm not at that point. I think I worked up the courage to lead a 5.11a once, but it was one I had top-roped over a dozen times and knew by heart.

High calorie drinks eh? Can't gain weight? First off, drink a protein shake in the morning. Don't do shit with it. Afterwards, hit Starbucks and get anything with White Chocolate in it. For lunch and dinner, go to Burger King. Chocolate Ice Cream Shake (950 cal). Always have Big Gulps around throughout the day (600 cal). After work, get drunk on Pina Coladas.

I tried to cut BACK my sugar intake! Unsweetened iced tea instead of soda; black coffee, and I don't generally drink more than a glass or two of wine a week. I'm pretty sure I'd just develop a belly if I ate like that, skinny or no.

Yeah, leading routes are definitely a lot more interesting - there are a ton of overhangs, caves, and that's actually one reason I'm focusing more on workouts - I've got good balance and I'm skinny so vertical faces with pinches are my strongest point; anywhere I can keep my weight on my feet. Overhangs are my weakest.

Heh. Well besides what you're drinking, protein shakes (at least the good ones) are fairly low on fat and sugar, but high in protein and calories too. Cytogainer is a 600 calorie drink, but with 5g of sugar (and something like 50g of protein?). Of course, it's not just meant to be drunk.. You'd probably develop something like a sugar belly if you didn't utiilize it.. but it's a godsend for skinny guys like you and I (note, I don't bother with it myself). I don't know what to tell you as far as things to get on-the-go, in a restaurant (besides tea, water, and coffee like what you're doing). Even the lemonade will kill ya.

I'm sorry but what kind of nutritional advisement is this? - You can still gain weight if you are a hard gainer (like myself), and do it in a healthy fashion.  Eating fast food should never be a nutritional recommendation.  Calories aren't calories - your body processes it differently, not to mention the huge amounts of sodium and lethal amounts of trans-fat's you are ingesting from Burger King, but then again, I guess it depends if you are consuming food for taste or performance.

Nightshade needs green text. But he won't get it.

Green text, good?

Green's used for sarcasm around here. All the cool kids skip it, tho.
Stray's earlier post was in jest.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v77/m0shm4n/sarchasm.jpg)

Yeah that helps a ton. I used to be just like that, and I'm a skinny bastard too. Since I've been climbing rarely but lifting regularly, it's reversed; there's this wicked V3 overhang marathon with some awesome heel-hooking action that I can absolutely kill at my gym while V2s or V2+s with crimp or pinch grips kill me.

It's really quite frustrating to look at a route, know how to climb it technically and then just have your fingers give out on the third move.

Day 2: Plyometrics, which is codespeak for Squats.
Legs gave out several times during the disc, and had to use the pause button a lot. Heart rate was at 180bpm most of the time, even with the pauses. Extremly glad that I didn't have to go down any stairways, because this thing sure as fuck gave me a bad case of drunken legs.

Can't see Day 3: Shoulders and Back, going very well, since my shoulders, trapezium and back are still quite a bit sore, but hey, who needs to flex their arms more than 90º, or get up from chairs without help anyway?

Day 3 (Shoulders/Biceps/Triceps) wasn't quite as fun as the rest.  Mostly due to soreness I was feeling from Monday.  Shoulders are a bit of a worry for me because I've got a really bad right shoulder (rotator cuff) that snaps, crackles and pops on any rotational movement.  If you put your hand on my shoulder, you feel the bones grinding together.  So I have to take it very, very easy with that part otherwise it could knock me out for a couple weeks.

Whoever designed the Ab Ripper program must have a pain fetish.

I was using the Ab ripper program over the summer as my 'ab workout'.  It's great except some of it makes my lower back hurt.

(http://vnmedia.ign.com/camelotvault.ign.com/images/weekinreview.gif)
First week was a miserable failure due to ungodly ammounts of lactic acid build-up in arms, back and tights. Only managed to do 2 days of exercise, and then lost the capability to perform an angle lower than 90º or bigger than 160º, with both arms, without suffering intense pain for the rest of the week. Arms only stopped hurting today, legs still aren't completely recovered. Will write that week off as non existent and start from scratch today.

Oh cool, the girl in Nebu's picture went from nerd to sassy bitch. Truly, a transformation. Let's hear it for society!

On that note, I'm tempted to grab P90X and suffer with you. I do not have access to real exercise equipment and can't join a gym, so this should be quite the trip.

I was thinking in a similar vein, but I think we could both buy the bands and be fine?  I've got the Iron Gym (good stuff) and a chair already..

Sort of along the same lines as Itto, starting Friday night, my workout went to shit.  Hello Mr. FeverSinusesChestCongestionCoughHeadacheAndOtherFluLikeSymptoms, how are you?  Felt like complete ass until this morning actually.  Debated not even coming to work, but feeling better as the day goes on.  I feel like I'm on reset, so may as well start the process anew.

And yeah, Hoax, the bands and pull up bar is all you really need. 

Rebooted Day 1 was much better than the original. Managed to last a lot longer, heart stayed at 160bpm, did more of everything. Only complete failure was, again, caused by Diamond Push Ups.

Not feeling any lactic acid, only bona fide muscular fatigue.

I think starting day 1 again was a brilliant idea.  The number one enemy to most people getting back into a regular workout routine is overtraining.  It's great to be enthusiastic about the workout, but it's also important to have realistic expectations.  Well played, sir.

Anyone have thoughts on where to order online?

I think I'll acquire the videos this week.

amazon.com is probably your best bet.  Or you can overpay at www.beachbody.com.  Not sure where you are, but if there's an Academy Sports near you, or probably even a Wal Mart, you could probably pick them up there on the cheap.  I'd still recommend barbells, though.  The resistance with barbells is more constant; with the bands, the resistance eases up somewhat as you get closer to where ever they are anchored.  That said, if your a n00b to strength training, it might not be a bad idea to start with them to get used to the movements.  Someone else can either verify (or vilify) my thinking on that.  Amazon.com also has the pull up bar, as does Academy Sports.

Depending on your current strength, there's a fairly cheap set of adjustable ones at Academy Sports.  I bought these (http://www.academysports.com/index.php?page=content&target=products/fitness/weight_training/weight_sets&start=0&selectedSKU=0422-00621-0043), along with some extra weights.  Looking back, I should have bought something better, considering the weights move around and cause the 'nuts' to slowly loosen, which causes the weights to slide around a bit.  Which is more than a bit disconcerting when you have them directly over your head.  My 'buy stuff frivolously' account is drained for the month, but am going to pick up something better next month.

And I cannot stress how integral the pull up bar is, even if you cant do one by yourself (use a chair for assistance).  I'd definately pick one of those.

You can get the vids only on amazon for about 65 bucks, and I can send you the documentation.  That said, all of it can be found at certain places for cheap. 

So I acquired all the P90X stuff.

This shit. Frightening.

Don't be a pussy!!  BRING IT, BITCH!!!

Actually, it's not that bad.  Don't overdo the weights; do what you can do and don't let ego get in the way.  Proper form > all.

Now... I'm intrigued. 

My current workout:

M-Sat 30 mins on stationary bike in the morning, run 2-5 miles in the evening.

M: Chest and abs
T: Back and legs
W: Cardio only
Th: Shoulders and abs
F: Biceps, triceps, and legs

For each body part I do 3 exercises, 3 sets each to failure in a pyramid fashion.  4th exercise for each part is a compound exercise done in 3 supersets.  I use free weights primarily and machines for back and some legs.

Q: How does this program compare to my normal routine?  If it's more intense, I'm definately in. 

You're in.


Yes. Yes it is. Plyo is satan made video. Even on the second run.

Nebu - Depends on how hard you push your own workout, I suppose.  There's very little rest involved.  For instance, on Chest/Back (disk 1), you're constantly alternating front to back.  Then switch it around and do the same routine backwards.  You_just_don't_stop.  It's cardio/circuit training, basically.  If you're working the weight you should, you'll be spent after the first go around, much less the second.  You get a 1 minute water break about 35 minutes into it, then you're right back into the fray.

Itto - I loved the plyo.  Favorite part thus far.  Don't get me wrong, it was painful (in a good way) and whatnot, but my enjoyment of it overcame it.  Felt like a kid again.

I'll consider plyo overcomed when I can manage the fourth set of rockstar jumps at the same speed and same height that they do it. Until then, I'm just trying to catch up. Don't consider getting to the end, performing every exercise to some extent, overcoming it.

Different strokes for different folks, though. When that prick says "EX-like" and crosses his arms, after the obligatory (http://www.bestweekever.tv/bwe/images/2007/10/OFFICE%20DWIGHT%20EYEROLL.JPG), it's back into walking along the razor's edge land.  :oh_i_see:

Heh, maybe I should clarify...

I couldn't do what they did as much or as high as they did.  But I did manage to not press the stop button on the DVD and toss in the towel for the night. 

The dude jumping around on a prosthetic leg really pushes me to go through it.  Genius move for motivation if there ever was one:  See?  Dude only has ONE LEG and HE CAN DO IT!!! says the smarmy fucker that is Tony Horton.

Hey Neb, do you know a good "neck exercise"? I'm starting to look like Ally McBeal.

HERE (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/exercises.php?MainMuscle=Neck) are some with weights and some isometric.  I prefer to use machines when I work my neck (it's a Nautilus machine that you put your face into and can work forward back or side-to-side) and always work shoulders and do shrugs to help with accessory muscle groups.

Thanks. What is that machine exactly?

(http://www.genofit.com/images/Nautilus/2FWN_4_Way_Neck.jpg)

By the way, do isometrics mainly just increase strength? Not that that's bad, I could use that in my neck too. But I do have a bit of an "aesthetic" concern here.  :grin:


[edit] On a humourous note, that creepy infomercial guy, "John Basedow" did not work out his neck.

(http://vksempireofdirt.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/john1.jpg)



I don't know why, but I'm still cracking up on that rumor that he died in that tsunami a couple of years back.

If you want to increase muscle mass you need both weights and a workout system meant to put on bulk.  Just working shoulders and upper back hard in a regular routine will often give you neck mass by default. 

To be honest, I really only work my neck to avoid injury and out of habit from my football days.  My neck and my forearms are the two areas I tend to isolate the least.  They get so much work while targeting larger muscle groups that I never really feel much need to work them separately. 

Well thanks. I have weights, but the only one I've tried is laying on my chest/weight on the back of my head. Figured there'd be others besides that and the whole "put on a jackstrap" on my head routine.... seems a bit too serious.  :why_so_serious:

Ok so I've ordered some bands (never used em, like the idea of not having weights taking up space and stubbing my toes) and I've got the materials.  I'm going to start for real after the superbowl.

So this week I thought I start messing with it and trying to setup my baselines, make sure I figure out where in my house I can get it done, how to do it etc.  I'll try to take a before pic and post it but no gaurantees I can be assed to bother roommates digi camera.

I've got a question though, for pre/post protein intake what are people doing?  I'm esp interested in Nebu's thoughts since over the years I've heard all sorts of theories about how much and when you should eat before and after a workout.

Going to do the chest/back tonight, I got up at 6am this morning and the thought of excercising for an hour made me feel sick.  Not that I can't function in the mornings, just bleh my stomach is at its most finicky early in the day.

There isn't really any sudden burst of muscle development after a workout.  Consider the building of muscle tissue as 24-hour process.  With that in mind, getting adequate protein throughout the day is far more critical than the window after a workout. You simply need a few grams of protein to replace what was burned as energy and you're good to go.

In my experience, the most important nutrient after a workout is carbohydrate. While muscle rebuilding takes place over 24 - 72 hours following a workout, there is a window of a few hours where your muscles are "primed" to take in carbohydrates that were depleted during training. For this reason, you'll find the post-workout shakes to contain about a 2:1 carb-protein ratio to supply just enough protein but plenty of carbohydrate to refuel your muscles.  The type of protein you take in matters as well.  Whey protein is rapidly absorbed and rapidly cleared, so you'll need some protein that is dietary or soy based to make sure that you have consistent stores for rebuilding. 

I try to eat a snack 30-60 mins before I workout (usually balanced protein and carbs) and a shake after.  The shake is mostly to cover any protein that was catabolized by the workout and to keep my stores up.  Being a vegetarian, I supplement a lot anyway. 

Hope that helps.

A PM from Itto reminded me that I wanted to update this..

As of today, I'm down to 203 lbs, a drop of 19 lbs since I started.  Although I didn't get my body fat measured at the start, I feel like I've lost more fat pounds than that, and have added a few pounds of muscle.  An impromptu measurement of the neck and waist showed a drop of 1.5 inches from the neck (down to 17") and a whopping 5.5 inches from around my midsection.  Which is probably a combination of losing weight and my abs getting stronger and holding my guts in better.

I haven't quite followed the diet as well as I'd like, but overall, I'd say 75 percent of my meals/snacks are straight from the program.

I added a fairly stout stretching routine to it that I do every morning, and I feel like that's helped tremendously.  Between the weight loss and stretching, I feel like I've come a really long ways - but fully recognize I still have a ways to go. 

The important thing is that I am feeling really freaking good, I'm sleeping much much better.  Back pain is nearly non existant.  My eating habits are drastically improved. 

And it's quite nice to hear "Damn, you look good" from your wife when you walk through the house after a workout without a shirt on.

Not because I have a man-crush on you, but you should post an updated pic.

That's great man. Kudos. Pretty neat to see you're already getting a 20lb loss/result.

@ Cyrexx - I thought about it, might do something for the end of the 1st month.  Kinda want to wait until it's all over with and see if someone can do one of those morph things with photoshop or something.

@ Stray - Thanks, man. 

Go watch the movie "Bigger faster stronger" and you'll quickly realize exactly how these guys do it. lol

Impressive as hell!  Losing more than 2lbs a week is tough and it sounds like you're just tearing through this program.  Keep us updated.  You've been great motivation. 

Appreciate it, Neb.

Thing is, with my body type, all I really needed to do was to get moving and eat better.  Which probably can be said for just about anyone, but it's not in my genetics to be a fatass.  I had developed some really bad eating habits and become mostly sedentary.  When I did Schilds diet months ago, I dropped weight rather quickly (almost too fast).  Quitting smoking, while good for my overall health, added some pounds as well.  Hell, with just the diet alone I would have seen awesome results - I'm eating about 1/3rd calories I used to, and more importantly, they're good calories.

I was concerned that since I've approached middle age (damnit......) that it would be harder to get off.  But so far, that hasn't been the case.  Yeah, the program DOES work - but then again, doing anything is better than doing nothing. 

That said, I do expect the gains (losses?) to flatten out for the next 60 days.

The only thing that I'll caution you about is that, like any exercise program, you'll start to plateau after 2-3 months.  The key here is to change the routine while maintaining intensity.  Your body is an amazing machine and will adapt to any program you throw at it.  The key is to keep your body guessing so that it always trying to adapt to the new, increased stress level.

I also encourage you to start a blog.  Places like bodybuilding.com give out cash to people that make impressive physical transformations.  You can become the posterchild for fitness!

The program ends after 3 months, and the workout sequence changes monthly.

Tomorrow is my day of rest so here is my summation of week 1:

Chest & Back (Monday) -- Fucking pull ups, I have next to 0 upper body strength (slender build, never been fat so arms have never had to work hard, only sport I played seriously was soccer).  But I'm 6"1 / 170lbs so its not like its an light lift, fucking pull ups.  I did ok with everything else but holy chrsit the second round I was pretty much not going to get a pull up off if I went from full extension.  It was a little pathetic really.

Ab Ripper -- This is fun, my core is the only thing beyond running and random fuck around cardio that I ever work out.  Still a killer motherfucker at times but honestly the hardest thing is the bicycles because my quads were still sore from doing the fitness test max wall squat the day before.  Tired quads will be a theme of this whole week.  I also got very frustrated (I get angry when I'm at my max) when I got to those lying on your side crunch things.  I have no idea how the fuck you are supposed to do those.  I looked for form tips on the web but didn't find anything useful, I feel like a retarded sea lion trying to do them without some instruction on wtf I'm doing.  The mason hit the floor things at the end are nasty.  All in all though I like the ab ripper, after doing it 3 time I can feel the muscles getting deeper across my stomach, happy with this.

Plyo (Tuesday) -- Oh wow, I thought this was going to be chill, it was brutal at times, again my legs were being worked hard.

Shoulders & Arms (Wednesday) -- It will be interesting to do this next week now that I've got some notes on how much weight to use / which band.  I was having all sorts of trouble picking the right thing and keeping in rhythm.  Didn't feel too sore afterwards but probably because I couldn't really push it properly.

Ab Ripper -- Was more of the same, I think if anything I did my best run this day.

Yoga (Thursday) -- Oh fuck yes.  This was amazing.  I really absolutely loved this.  Even though I can't go a day without seeing people walking around with yoga mats slung over their shoulders and I have several friends and tons of people at work who swear by it I've never done any yoga.  Fucking great.  If nothing else I will be taking some yoga in the future, I have never felt such an amazing sweat 15 minutes into anything.  The balance shit was hard though, but I knew from wiiFit yoga that I fail at balance.  Will be fun to work on it.

Legs & Back (Friday) -- I took this on pretty late, squats were fucking killer, my legs are so worn down.  I went very easy on this one, no weight on anything really except the calf exercise which was amazing.  I wanted to go easy on my legs.  I also stopped doing any pull ups in the second half because my left elbow was fucked up from tossing the football around in the street the day before.  I didn't like the way it felt.  I also put off Ab Ripper a day because it was late as fuck when I finally finished.

Kenpo (Sat) -- I liked the start but the kicks felt silly, I need to look into kick mechanics because I felt like I was just throwing my legs around retarded.  I also could have gone with less karate and more punching but whatever.  I may just double up the first 10 minutes in the future.  It was fun and it did go fast. 

Ab Ripper  (Sat) -- This was brutal, not sure why.  I was just tired from the whole week maybe.  Bicycles made me want to cry and it was down hill from there.  I was taking 10 reps on 5 off 10 on for most of the exercises.

Thoughts:
Overall my soreness wasn't too bad.  I think my legs took a beating because there is alot of muscle there its just out of practice so I was able to push it and push it and then pay for it later.  My upper body is pretty much developing something from nothing so I can't go very hard in the first place. 

Its annoying how much outside research I needed to do to check out proper form and how to achieve it.  I get that your supposed to be a gym rat looking for the XTREME shit or whatever but still it'd be nice if in the documentation they went through each thing and how to do it correctly. 

The bands are pretty cool but take practice, the size of the loop is critical, it took me some time to figure out to stretch them to get the handles on.  I'm fucking retarded.

I understand completely, but don't give up.  I'm 6' and 205, so I know all about it not being an easy lift.  Just keep doing them and you will gradually see improvement.  Also, you'll find that your body has natural strengths and tendencies.  For me pistol grip pullups are far easier than narrow grip with palms toward me which are easier than wide grip with palms away.  It's a matter of your strength in your biceps, shoulders, chest, and back that will help.  The more you do them, the easier they will become.  Don't give up. 

(sorry for the novel). 

Pullups are key. Remember that changing your arm position significantly shifts the focus of the exercise. Wide-grip prone (palms-away) pullups are all about the back, less about the arms and shoulders. Tight-grip supine (palms-facing-you) pullups are largely bicep and shoulder, much less back. Thumbless grips will work your forearm and finger strength, fingertip grips more-so.

I do not recommend doing fingertip grips before you can do a couple sets of five thumbless, though. :grin:

As a climber, I make sure I incorporate at least one set into every workout with a varying grip/position. Since I started doing this regularly, my climbing has improved immensely and I'm getting close to where I was prior to leaving SF (high V3/low V4) even though my technique has degraded some. I can also campus like a motherfucker now, which makes for a fun "party trick" at the end of a climbing-gym outing. We've got a campusing ladder in my gym, and I do vertical laps on the fucker. Great way to finish an evening when your forearms/fingers can barely move, but your shoulders are still demanding more pain.

I'm also interested in the "Kenpo" segment of P90X; is there a video of this somewhere? I did actual Kenpo karate for several years, I'd like to see how faithful their "kenpo" section is. I expect Ed Parker is spinning in his grave. The basic ones I remember are the ball/cat kick, roundhouse, inward/outward arc kicks, rear kick, and side kick. The arc kicks are pretty weird, requiring a lot of timing and balance, but they're decent for scoring points in sparring competitions.

I might need to get one of these pull up things. I live by a playground, and don't feel like walking over and doing them there everytime. Doubtful I'll bother with P90X though. Just need to stimulate my body a bit with basic compound exercises. I'm doubling my caloric intake as well (along with protein). I'm 175 at the moment, still around 11% bodyfat. I'll post results in a month! Hopefully I'll keep the fat nearly as low, but that's doubtful.

[edit] wait, nevermind.. false alarm.

@Nebu

Hey man, if presses give me more stress in my triceps than my chest, what should I be adjusting...? I just do barbell presses. My form seems good. But I've always had this problem, where I feel like I'm not working my pectorals enough, and get worn out in my arms. Be it pushups, presses, etc..

The width of your grip. 

Wide grip = pecs.  Narrow grip = triceps. 

Make your grip as wide as you can comfortably go to focus pectoral muscles.  Incline to add shoulder and tops of pecs, decline to add back and bottoms of pecs.  Thats' the best I can offer.  Triceps are always secondary in pushups or presses, the grip width changes amount of emphasis. 

Hope that helps.

It does, thanks man

You might also consider doing butterflies.

I was going to say the same thing.  If you have a machine where you can open up the fly arms an do what amounts to an "open fly" (heh), you'll notice that it'll tear the shit out of your pecs.

Damn, no, I wish I had that. I just have a plain old bench, a bar, and some dumbbells. [edit] and the only dumbbells I have are a bit heavy for flys right now.  :\

I should add that my chest was a lot more sore after waking up yesterday.

I'd recommend a pair of the handles below.  You can move them around to isolate triceps or chest, you can put your feet on the bed for upper pecs, or elevate the handles for lower pecs.  Between a pair of these, a pullup bar, and a place to do dips... you're covered.  Mine cost like $10 at WalMart.

(http://www.smrfoamroller.com/pushupbar.gif)

I've been avoiding this thread because I thought P90X was about some gadget that I didn't want to know about so colour me surprised at finding a workout thread. Turns out I can even get it in the UK.  As I've managed to let myself go over the last 4/5 months owing work/home life balance becoming, um, unbalanced, and I've got some serious events planned that I need to get back in shape for. So I'm looking at something I can do at home and that will motivate me.  Couple of quick Qs though:

1. Does it give alternatives to pull-ups?

2. Is it real plyometrics or what?

Its been weeks! Updates please.

Ya, do tell.  I'm on my own kind of a plan (the putting on weight/muscle type, not for losing...I did the weight loss thing last year), so I'm hugely curious in this topic in general.  I'd also be curious if anyone out there is trying to do the same thing I am doing...would be interesting to compare notes.  Apparently, I am OCD enough that I tend to be pretty good at this sort of thing.

THIS (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/wotw56.htm) is the plan I've been doing.  It's based on German volume training and I have to confess that with proper diet, my growth has been the best I've seen in years.  In a month I've added 25lbs to my decline bench and had significant gains in shoulder and tricep strength. 

I'm wanting to hear more about this P90x.  You got me motivated to get more hardcore... I want to hear your story!

I gained 4 pounds of fat  :awesome_for_real:

Update?

Going well.  Really well.  I haven't weighed myself in a while, but I'm probably down to high 180's at this point.  Probably the most telling is that I'm able to fit into a pants I haven't been able to wear in years and my snoring has been all but eliminated - which will hopefully continue and I won't have to use my CPAP machine anymore for my sleep apnea.

A side effect is that the weight loss and increased flexibility has temporarily screwed up my golf game.  As I put on weight and lost flexibility over the past several years, I (unintentionally) started altering small parts of my swing to make up for the changes.  So, trying to re-groove my old swing or rebuild a new one which is going to take some time.  Scoring in the 80's is killing me, when I'm used to playing a scratch handicap.

But it's been alot of fun.  Started playing tennis again, my energy level is through the roof.  Spending alot less time on my ass.

And the response I get from people I haven't seen in a couple months/several weeks is always a trip.  So far, about 8 or so of my friends/colleagues have bought the system and are having a great deal of fun with it.

Highly recommend it.

I'm looking forward to starting my workout program in a couple months. I'll start with some plumbing and the move onto some masonry and tree removal, then onto some excavation  :grin:

I'm still chugging along. I've added 5kg to my bench and military press weights and broken the 1.5x bodyweight barrier on deadlifts. Just about hitting bodyweight now on squats. 3x8 pullups are pretty much a certainty unless I do them dead last after a long workout, and then I usually still hit 8/8/7.

I need to find a decent core exercise to rotate in, so I've been practicing Turkish Get-Ups at home using heavy books for weight.

My grip exercises have helped a lot, and I can pretty confidently take on V3 bouldering routes again. I've also gotten to the point that I can do two full laps on a campusing ladder without rest. :drill:

Probably not a bad idea! Ever notice it's always like these unassuming lumberjack dudes that destroy people in "strong man" competitions?  :grin:

OMG, did you get a house?  :why_so_serious:

I got a pullup bar thanks to this thread. Pullups are fun.  However, I simply cannot do pull ups with any hand separation with my palms facing out.  Is there any sort of low impact exercise I can do to start building up that muscle group?  Having a messed up/surgically repaired back may hamper this somewhat.   Only other semi-negative with this bar is that my elbow tendons/joints really can't put up with much of the other exercises I can do with it (pullups don't stress it at all).

My cardio has gone to shit since I stopped playing tennis.  I suppose I could start jogging.  Jogging is going to really suck in Arizona in less than a month.

You could always use a chair to help.

Place a chair on the floor but not directly under you.  Set the chair such that it only supports your heels and use a wide grip on the bar so your body is at about a 45 degree angle.  This will give you a lower impact version of a lat builder.  Doinf this, you will slowly gain strength in your back until you no longer need the chair for assist. 

Hope that helps.

Just got back from the gym; I got there late today, and it was pretty empty even for a Friday, so I decided to trade-in bent-over rows for Turkish Get-Ups with real weight. I went straight for 12kg. I figured that since I'd been feeling pretty strong - at least, for a guy my size - I could just go for it.

The first one wasn't so bad. I had the form down pretty well thanks to practicing with the book. By the third, everything I ever thought I knew about my own strength was a lie. It was like my entire torso and arm was on fire.

I managed to finish 3x4 of the fuckers at 12kg before slinking off to hurt in the sauna.

Totally adding these fuckers to my normal rotation.

Here's my story, in brief:

About a year ago my doctor told me my cholesterol was bad.  He also mentioned that I should "watch my weight"...I was about 187 pounds (5 foot 8), but I've always carried it fairly well, so most people wouldn't have said I was overweight.  But I was.  Went on a pretty intense diet - more of a lifestyle change, really - and lost about 45 pounds.  I did that in about 4 or 5 months, primarily through a good diet and a whole lot of kickboxing.  I bought a heavy bag and some gloves, and would just go beat the shit out of it for 20 - 30 minutes every day.  For anyone out there looking for a good, fun program to help lose extra weight an whip yourself into shape, I cannot stress enough how fantastic the kickboxing is.

Anyway, I maintained my new low weight (about 140-ish) for a long time.  I started to realize that, while I was in pretty good shape, I really was too small.  All the muscle mass I used to have as a younger fellow (I'm 35 now) was nowhere to be found.  I was too lean.  So about 60 days ago, I started in earnest to put on some serious weight/muscle.  I began doing a lot of research on weight gaining diets and programs.  I got all the protein shakes.  I increased my caloric intake to much higher levels.  I went out and bought a relatively cheap single-station home gym...I knew that this wasn't the ideal solution, but I felt like I needed to build a foundation in the privacy of my own home before I seriously considered free weights and/or a public gym.  I have so far not regretted that decision one bit.  You can get a hell of a lot out of a machine, particularly if you are a beginner.

I'm pretty dedicated, to the point of being a bit OCD about this stuff.  Not only have I stuck to my routine to the fucking letter, but I'm probably on the border of overdoing it a little - the biggest flaw in my schedule is that I cannot seem to bring myself to add in the proper rest that my body probably needs between workouts.  OTOH, I am a weirdly fast healer, so I'm not sure I need the rest that other people might.

So, the net results to this point.  58 days into my program, and I have put on right around 30 pounds (I'm back to 172).  I measure my body fat, and at the same time, by lean body mass numbers, every day.  According to the math, I've put on about 16 pounds of LBM (muscle, bone, hair, etc.) and 14 pounds of fat.  In reality, I think it is probably even more muscle than that, because I understand that body fat scales often have a hard time with extra muscle, and call it out as fat.  I can also see in the mirror that it's mostly muscle being put on, though there is certainly a ring of extra fat being added around my waist :awesome_for_real:  It would bother me more, but all the credible information I've read said that the most efficient method is to just gain muscle and fat like a motherfucker, and then work on cutting the fat later (bulk then cut).  That's what they say most bodybuilders do, so if it's good enough for them, it must be good enough for me.  In two days, I will move to my fat cutting phase.  I am extremely curious to see what I'm going to look like a few weeks into it.  I'm not sure how long I'll make this phase (2 or 3 weeks at least, I imagine), because I'm not sure how it's going to progress.

Also, at nearly two months into my program, I am a hair away from outgrowing my cheap little single-station gym, which I never would have imagined possible.  For pretty much every compound exercise (rows, lat pulldowns, bench, dead-lifts), I have maxed out the machine weight.  It's still fine for most isolation stuff, because it's not like I'll be doing 170 pound preacher curls anytime soon.  Regardless of how much actual muscle I've put on, I am waaay stronger than I was when I begun.  I am now looking seriously into buying a good Power Rack and some free weights, otherwise it will be very difficult to continue progressing with the critical compound exercises.

I've also learned a whole lot about how the body works, which has been fun.  I'm kind of looking forward to my cutting phase, because frankly, I am getting really sick and tired of eating all the god damned time and being full before I even sit down for dinner.

Shit, that wasn't too brief. :uhrr:

Honestly, I'm impressed.  The biggest problem with a lot of these intense programs is people do great with them for a month and then life happens and they drop the exercise portion, keep eating an increased number of calories, and gain 10 lbs.    Bravo to everyone keeping up with it. 

I'm impressed too, and nah, that wasn't too long Cyrrex. :)


Keeping weight down isn't too bad.. You can't maintain an extremely low fat percentage (like 6 pack range) without being a bit obsessive about it, but you can certainly prevent a gut, even without much exercise (err.. conscious/intentional exercise, I mean). Just gotta stop being so sedentary and eating complete shit. People don't drink enough water these days either.

Nice work Cyrrex!

You're correct on the gain/cut mechanism.  Muscle increases BMR so it's much easier to drop weight fast after gaining.  The only problem is that during a cut phase you'll also lose about 20% of your muscle mass. 

I hope that you stick with it.  Maybe we can compare notes come May.  I'm not going to be done with this cycle until then.  I better get some handicap for my age!

Hate to burst bubbles, but that's not possible. Unless you're on steroids.

Even then it'd be a good result.

At best, a natural trainee can expect about 2 pounds of lean mass per month. That's with everything being perfect, and great genetics. Generally you can expect less than that.

I'd be interested to know if you're measuring LBM with calipers or a handheld monitor, on a scale, in a dunk tank, or what. It sounds like you're using an electric bathroom scale, and all I can do is warn you that those things are horribly inaccurate to the point of being completely worthless for measuring bodyfat percentages.

If I'm only trying to help (and I am), I suggest you get some calipers and scale your calories back very quickly.


Edit: I feel like I should throw something positive in here, because I'm really not trying to be a dick - even though what I've said will likely be rejected off the bat and taken negatively.

That you're gaining strength and feeling good about it is awesome. Strength usually comes very quickly when you start out with weights, and it can be quite exciting. I remember being in love with the squat rack, watching my numbers go up substantially every week (I fucking hate squatting now).

Just really watch out with adding that much fat when you bulk. It's a bad thing that you'll regret later. Cutting is catabolic and it's very hard to hold onto all of your muscle and strength when you cut, so the less you have to do unnecessarily the better. At the moment, you've put on 30 pounds in 60 days and, again, unless you're on steroids then most of that is fat/water. The human body has a finite capacity for protein synthesis, and you can't change that without drugs.

The problem here is that you'll probably end up with less lean mass than when you started after you take that all off of yourself - especially if you end up with 60 pounds at four months, 90 pounds at six months, and so on. But at that point, the mirror will tell you very clearly to stop.

Out of curiosity, I'd be interested in seeing your diet (hopefully you keep a log) and your workout schedule.

That was kind of what I was getting at above.  Even if you cut on a VERY good diet, you're still likely to lose 20% of your muscle gains at a minimum. 

I understand and am aware of everything you stated.  I am using a scale to record measurements for now, and while I understand the inaccuracies involved, it works fine for benchmarks and indexes.  I'm not claiming that I've put on 16 pounds of pure muscle...as you say, some of it is certainly water weight and I'll see it falling away quickly.

As for the assertion that you cannot put on more than a couple pounds of muscle mass per month, without juicing (I wouldn't dream of using drugs), all I can say is that that is categorically untrue.  I don't want to get in a heated debate about it.  That may be an accurate generalization, but it sure as hell isn't true for anyone who is a relative beginner, and there are plenty of other variables involved.  Granted, it is very certainly starting to level out, and there is no way I could continue that pace.  But it is rather irresponsible to make such sweeping statements, because it's that kind of nonsense that frightens people away from even trying.

Edit:  Sorry if that comes off douchey...not trying to pick a fight.  It might help to explain that I was coming from a position where I was a bit too lean to begin with, am naturally very athletic, a natural mesomorph, am an oddly fast healer (really, it's almost weird), and I workout with high intensity.  Once I get through my cutting phase and begin my next bulking phase, I expect my experience to be a bit more in line with what you are suggesting.  But it will still be more than 2 pounds a month  :grin:

Alright. I'm just going to suggest the calipers again so you can accurately keep track of what's going on and have that knowledge for yourself.

Again, electronic scales do not work - so at the moment, you're guessing.

That's all I'll say on the subject.

He's right here.  Using capacitance on the scale only works for a small number of people under some very idealized conditions.  Get yourself a pair of calipers or you can use the naval measurement system for BMI (LINK HERE (http://zone.cust.he.net/prothd2.html)).  Of course, calculators that include more measurements tend to be MUCH more accurate.  If you are VERY serious, you can do an immersion test (measure of buoyancy due to fat). 

On a separate note, I think I've found the perfect home gym for under $300.

(http://www.sport-n-goods.com/acatalog/515m.jpg)

Chins, dips, abs, and pushup bars.  All you need is one of (THESE (http://www.liftinglarge.com/ProductImages/Spud-Dip-Belt.jpg)) for weighted pullups and dips and you have everything!

When I finish my bulk phase, I'm going to do nothing but naturals for the summer with a lot of road mileage.  Then I'll go back to volume training in the fall. 

You've provided a link for everything except the product link there ;)

That thing looks pretty tall though.. Hmm.

I have vaulted ceilings, so no worries.  I didn't leave a link because you can find these for like $250 if you search for dip/chin on my st retailer websites.

I haven't been using the electronic scale because I thought it was giving me a good measure of what my true body fat calculation was - I've always known that it was overestimating the figure.  I HAVE been using it for benchmarking only...it gives me an idea of what kind of mass I am putting on (which is confirmed by looking in the mirror), and it has been plenty adequate for that purpose.

That said, I've been meaning to buy some calipers anyway, so I picked some up at GNC today.  So far, it is confirming what I already knew....the scale is adding about 4% extra.  I'll need more trial and error measuring with these things, because I've never used them before.

Those things are awesome.  A friend of mine who works from home has one in his home office.  He basically just does dips and pullups ALL DAY.  Just like, whenever he needs a break, he hops on.  I want one badly.

That does look cool, wouldn't fit in my pad, though. Maybe in the garage, but it's getting tight for space in there already.

Someone mentioned a bag...that's an interesting idea. My singer always loved working bags, had four different kinds (even one odd one he had on the ceiling for David Lee Roth kicks), and I worked them a lot. And I've got a nice unfinished basement....drums, bench and a bag sounds perfect!

That was me.  I have two of them that I alternate out, depending on my mood (a 40 pounder and an 80 pounder).  All things considered, whaling away on these things is one of the best exercises I've ever done.  Just the regular boxing is a good all around workout, but if you add in the kicking part (and do it seriously), then it is taken to another level.  Also, my pretend Kung Fu skills are now extremely polished.

Speaking of Kung-Fu and punching bags, I was telling Nebu to pick this up, but everyone should..

(http://i580.photobucket.com/albums/ss244/straykat627/Misc/bruce-lee_art-of-bodyjpg.jpg)


It's part of a larger series of books garnered from Lee's personal notes, but you can find it individually for cheap. It's the least combat centric one, and focused on fitness, so don't think it's for martial artists necessarily. Or even potential ones. It's a good book of tips and inspiration about endurance and functional bodybuilding. And in true Jeet Kune Do fashion, you can just take what's useful for you now (some of his routines are downright godly, so you'd probably kill yourself anyways). It's pretty impressive how much of his knowledge holds up. The thing that makes it stand out as a fitness book though is how it's function oriented. Just like his proclivity to shed laborious or useless combat skills, Lee was absolutely meticulous, in an age where it wasn't easy to gather nutrition and fitness knowledge, about working out towards a goal of function, and not just show-y-ness. The result was a 140 lb man powerful enough to kick a hole through one of those 80 pounders you're working on, Cyrrex, broke the chain, and left the stuffing all over James Coburn's lawn.. So before you say your kung-fu skills are extremely polished, think again! :P

Ooo, I like the reccomendation.

I'm trying to trim my weight down (already gone from  240 to 200 lb on my 6 foot frame). Trying to aim to improve my core muscles and that sort of thing. I want to do aerial cartwheels eventually  :awesome_for_real:.

Throw some shit out you packrat.

That's probably Lee's biggest thing, so you'll find stuff here. He had some other philosophies about it being the centerpoint of willpower and spirit and other stuff that you can ignore if you like, but a lot of his routine was about expanding obliques/abs/back/ribcage area. Kind interesting that he was 5'7", but had a 31" waist.

I said my fake Kung Fu skills, fake.  :awesome_for_real:  I may be able to rig a bag to explode on impact of one of my powerful appearing (but ultimately wimpy) roundhouses, but it just seems like too much work.

I am amazed by him though. I don't want to out and out say it's my personal goal to be like him (because I couldn't and don't have the same activities/objectives), but I'd like to achieve at least a fraction. I don't take martial arts as seriously as I used to either, so my "function" is a little more modest than his. I wonder if just "healthy living" is enough to keep me motivated to even achieve that though. Different types of athletes drive themselves to where they're at for performance gains. Better spring, better throwing, better running, etc.. Once you read up on Lee, his goal was to literally be able to kick everyone's ass. There was even a quote towards the end of his life.. Something along the lines of "In all honesty, I don't believe there is a single person who can beat me". Being obsessed about it drove him. At this point in my life, I'm not obsessed about anything athletic. It's all casual interest. So what exactly do I need to properly perform casual things without straining myself? Nothing! I'm already in shape for that...

Shit, I'm ranting. I think my point is.. I'm trying to find new athletic interests just so I can push myself to not suck at them. Yoru's an example here: He wants to mountain climb better. I need something like that.. It's actually more important than the exercise, I think.

Just find something you like? I think you're right about having a goal, it's really hard to do anything without having one. And a bit of obsession is healthy  :grin:.

Yeah, I do need something I like.. But I'm sort of apathetic with my old hobbies (mostly basketball and skateboarding). Everyone's talking about their current "status of health" so that's mine. I think I'm fairly in shape, but have no particular aim to improve. Lee's book is all about having a particular aim, and I'd like to apply it somehow. Right now, my only goal is probably just to look better naked. Haha. But really, that's a bunch of bullshit.

[edit] deleted another rant. Drinking too much coffee.  :why_so_serious:

Is that strange?  And would you expect it to be bigger or smaller?  Genuine question, because I'm 5'6 and have a 32-31" waist.  I'm in very good shape, but even when I'm out a little out of shape it doesn't change much. 

Interesting thread. 
/back to semi-lurking

I mean, it's strange if your waist consists of entirely abs and obliques and have virtually no body fat.

(http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/6636/bruceleeinhk1973jpg.jpg)


There's being "in shape", and then there's Bruce "Chuck Norris Facts Do Not Apply to Me" Lee. Not only did he not have much fat, but he had muscles built in places that most people won't actually see on other human beings during their entire lifetimes. If you're that in shape, then I applaud you.

(http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/7168/89871725.jpg)
(http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/58/traditionalbruceleejpg.jpg)

I'm 6' tall with a 33" waist and a 44" chest.  I don't find that waist to be unusual at all.  I'm not even that lean... yet!

Stray: I think the key is to make working out part of daily life.  You don't really need an athletic component, but I'm sure it doesn't hurt.  I used to augment my workouts by playing basketball and running daily.  Without basketball, I'm finding it hard to go for a run every day so I understand your point.  Maybe it's time to find a new hobby?  See what's going on in the area.  If it's cold, pick up skiing.  Maybe golf?  Maybe something in the water?  I know that there are a lot of athletic programs around the country.  You just have to find them.  

No, I guess I'm not making sense. I'm just talking about a passion and specializing your physique, not merely augmenting with activities. It's not that I don't play sports or don't still skate a bit. I do. But when you have an activity you're obsessive about excelling at, and love, then you target the areas best suited for it. People who do that always look the most impressive. Lee, for example, at first might not come off as striking as a bodybuilder, but that's because he didn't care to focus on certain things. He thought big pecs, for example, didn't carry much use in combat, and eventually slimmed that area down a bit. He thought they slowed his guarding. He did, however, see that he could toss and pull the fuck out of people with big forearms. Hence, it became a goal to create ungodly forearms for himself. Goes for any athlete really. Runners and Swimmers have certain body types, dirtbike riders get into all kinds of intense circuit training and strengthen their backs and wrists, etc..

I see now.  I misunderstood.  I was recruited heavily to play baseball in college.  When I made the commitment to play football instead, I spend 6 months reshaping my body for the sport.  It's exactly as you say: you want to maximize your utility given the rigors of the activity you want to be specialized at.  Interesting...

I've got some lumber and building materials, garbage cans, riding and push mowers, snowblower, tools and a couple guitar amps. I'm no packrat, but I don't buy into throwing out perfectly good stuff that I need just to make some space. Just need to organize, I moved in late last summer and had more pressing needs than organizing my garage. I still need space for a couple cords of wood and a small wood workshop, so even after I get it set up it won't have room for a workout area.

Bruce Lee is the man. Great mix of focus and genetics. I'm not much for show muscles, when I was unloading trucks and working out regularly I looked like a skinny little turd until I flexed. It was all useful strength, almost no show muscle at all. I liked being underestimated all the time, looking like a 98lb weakling and being able to wrestle guys twice my size and win easily. My favorite thing about walmart was the paid workout, which I augmented with bike riding, traditional stuff like situps/pushups and some bench work. Could literally not put on any mass, and I won't drink a shake or poke a needle or whatever.

Oh, umm.. I'm not sure if I'm misreading or you are, but I meant that Lee had a big muscular waist for someone his size. He was as fat free as it gets, but still thick there. I mean, sure it's easy to have a 31" waist. Lots of 5'7" Joe Blows probably have 31" waists. But for a typical dude, it'd be a belly. Even a typical fit person might just a little soft there. While Lee was hard as a rock. From his armpits to his waist, his physique went straight down like a square. So yeah, I think it's a little different looking (well, not entirely.. a lot of boxers are built similarly. Bodybuilders and such seem to like to slim up there though).

(http://www.cheekopek.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/last-movie-bruce-lee.jpg)
(http://www.hkcinemagic.com/en/images/people/large/dan_inosanto_et_bruce_lee2_7032be1b4326323633bc32445da656ed.jpg)


[edit] Just to add, wtf happened to Arnold. :uhrr:

(http://www.bsideblog.com/images/2008/06/arnold-schwarzenegger.jpg)

Well, bodybuilders are really going for that...triangular shape.  You know, the massive wide shoulders and chest, with the smallish waist.  Apparently, that is what the virile male figure is supposed to look like?  I like Bruce's approach that functionality trumps form, and you can't really argue the results.  And really, he still kind of gets that effect with his freakishly big lats.  Seriously, those things are monsters.

Men are upside-down triangles. Women are hourglasses. I think we learned this at school.

Yeah, but it just seems like aesthetics. Just like most notions of facial beauty. We're all supposed to have square jaws, furrowed brows, big squared bottom lips, and v-shaped torsos. Sounds like a bunch of bullshit. I've always wondered about this.. what the "ideal" human shape might be, what would be good for surviving in a prehistoric age, where you were fighting off beasts and/or chasing after them.. wtf use would some burly ass superman shape do for you? You'd be slow and have a bunch of muscle in areas that'd just get in your way. You could barely run and barely move your arms. You might be a deterrence at best, but more than likely, you'd probably get your ass owned quick, and just be a tasty dinner for some other animal. And if you look at a human skeleton, there's no support for it (not that you can't do it, just that the underlying frame is different).

(http://faculty.cns.uni.edu/~rothm/gorilla3.jpg)

If you look at the gorilla frame though, it's basically the same as they are built with flesh. It seems like something a Lee or a Muhammad Ali was doing was more ideal/natural for the human frame. In their activities, they show it as well. Both of them were simultaneously lightning quick, agile, had massive endurance, and were powerful.. things that would have easily placed them as cream of the crop killers even back then.

[edit] Bah, fuck it. I'm gonna stop talking about martial arts fitness here.

Postcount ++ :awesome_for_real:

Are you talking about fitness from a fighting viewpoint or a sport viewpoint?

I think he's talking about...figuring out what your real goal is, and then perfect your body for that task.  Shit, I think that's what we're all sort of talking about.

Stray, the MA stuff is interesting, no need to stop posting on it.  The Bruce Lee angle is fascinating.

Yeah, that's a simple way of putting it. Thanks. I can get a bit too convoluted for my own good sometimes.

For anyone looking for a tracking program, you may want to take a look at www.fitday.com (http://www.fitday.com).  Counts calories and all nutritional values, as well as an exercise tracker, weight tracker, etc.  I've only begun to toy around, but it appears to be potentially awesome.  The food search function is a bit annoying, but I'm guessing it gets easier as you add to your personal log of stuff.

OK, here's one more thing.. Anyone know anything about "PHA" (http://www.nasmpro.com/nasmpro/library/showarticle.aspx?id=4896) (Peripheral Heart Action)? It's another thing Lee adopted, instead of working out the typical way through multiple random sets. The principle is similar to circuit, but basically just about alternating your exercises between Upper Body and Lower Body.


[edit] Random link btw.. if it sounds too "market-y", I apologize.

It sounds too markety in one respect:  I don't get it.  How is it actually different than circuit training?  Also, unless I misunderstand, some of those principles seem to be in conflict with bodybuilding concepts, although it claims it can work for that purpose as well.  I suspect it is great for a balance of cardio/muscle toning.  But again, I'm not sure I'm even understanding what it is.

No, it's not bodybuilding, correct. Although we'd probably have to define "bodybuilding". I mean, it's still resistance, and you will build muscle, so long as follow general diet guidelines.. So it's bodybuilding in the technical sense. Hell, practically anything is bodybuilding to people who don't exercise, so whatever.  :grin: But it's really weightlifting functioning as intense cardio. It is a circuit routine, but one with a theory in mind that the body benefits the most when blood is flowing to all parts of the body equally. I'm just mentioning it.. I don't know all of the details. I know that it was first popularized by a former Mr. Universe, who was obviously a bodybuilder.. which is how Lee got wind of it. Lee's probably the biggest name associated with it though. And it isn't marketing.. It's a 40 year old routine, developed by a scientist. Not a company.

Okay, I get it now (saw your link before your ninja-edit :awesome_for_real:).  I suppose if you lifted heavy enough, it would build muscle to a degree.  Not in line with my current goals, but interesting nonetheless.

I edited, because those were just routines. Not informative enough. I've only mentioned it because of Lee, but it's interesting to hear this guy Bob Gajda (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/bob_gajda_interview.htm) (the Mr. Universe in question who popularized it). He badmouths a lot of modern age principles, but I bet he's on to something. He got where he was back then without even a fraction of the crazy shit dudes do to themselves these days (you can say the same for Lee, even though he was smaller).

Actually, you want to read the end of that interview if you're actually interested in it. It's kind of over my head, but pretty cool. I thought it was just about bloodflow, but it's about all fluids. And according to him, it is bodybuilding.

A bit of an update with 2.5 weeks or so to go...

Phenomenal results. 

Current weight is 181.  Dropped 13 inches off my waist (down to 33), 2 inches off my neck (down to 16.5), 8 inches off my hips (down to 35).  Chest measures in at 43.5 inches.  Right thigh is 22.25, left thigh is 22".  Arms come in at just shy of 16 inches.  I don't quite have the six pack, and I still have just a tiny bit of love handles, but I figure those will never go away unless I do some massive cutting, which I won't do.

I've had to get an entirely new wardrobe and new suits.  As soon as I figure out what my son (or wife) has done with the cord to hook up the digicamera, I'll grab some pics.

To be fair, I've cheated a bit, and I probably should come clean with it.  After a couple weeks, I ended up hiring a nutritionist to come to my house and clean out our pantries and show us how/where to shop.  We've gone to nearly 100 percent 'organic' stuff, cut sugar and salt entirely (or as much as humanly possible).  It was troubling to see all my favorite (bad) foods being tossed out, but it was what was needed to be done.  We had gotten into really bad eating habits (actually mine basically had continued since college when I was working out twice a day and could eat anything and everything).  We eat nothing fried, I've cut my red meat intake to minimal amounts and have drastically upped my fish and chicken intake (mostly fish these days).  Lots of veggies.  Some fruits, but mostly veggies.  Lots and lots of water or water/gatorade mix (about 70/30).  I tried a soda yesterday and it was so disgustingly sweet I couldn't finish 1/4 of it - it also made me feel uncomfortably bloated.  I haven't had a fast food burger in weeks - hell, I haven't had anything fast food since it started.  Not sure if I could eat it without hurling.

I also hired a personal trainer to come and observe me working out to ensure that my technique was sound.  To be fair, I'm naturally a very athletic guy.  I have large core muscles, that are naturally built for power.  I'm not an endurance guy.  Never have been.  Even for my size, I'm much quicker than average, and have always had very high hand/eye coordination.  I've always excelled at sports; I played Div I baseball at University of Alabama (starting SS 3 out of 4 years), and if I were a tad bit faster, probably could have played Div I football <somewhere>.  I was looked at to play football at several Div II schools, and a handful of Div I schools, but baseball provided the ride through school, so that's what I played.  Point is, I'm not (nor have I always been) some dumpy overweight guy that just had a miraculous turnaround with an infomercial workout system.  So, in that respect, it's not really in me (so to speak) to be a fatbody.  No one in my family, either immediate or extended is as heavy as I was, or even proportionally so.  We all come from pretty good stock.  My brother played Div II football, my father played in the minor leagues for a couple years until his father died in a car wreck.  And as the oldest of a family of six, he gave up baseball to come home and run the family businesses.  My mother was a gymnast.  We all come from pretty good stock.

I think the biggest thing for me was my eating habits.  I ate too fast, which lead to overeating because I ate too fast.  I ate at irregular intervals.  Didn't eat breakfast, didn't have snacks, during the day, ate too late.  I was perpetually dehydrated.  My weight gain in my neck started causing sleep apnea (also related to smoking).  The sleep apnea compounded the weight gain issue, and I gained more weight due to insufficient rest.  A couple years ago, when I tested for sleep apnea, I was having something like 80 sleep apnea episodes an hour, and my blood oxygen level was dropping into the 70's percentage's, if memory serves.  When I opened up my company, I spent many a night entertaining clients - which meant heavy, long dinners with lots of alcohol - scotch and bourbon in particular.  Lots of travel.  So, I had a number of factors working against me healthwise. 

But what the P90X diet and eating program (and the nutritionist) did was effectively teach me how and what to eat again.  My wife and I relearned how to cook.  How to prepare foods.  How to recognize when I wasn't hungry anymore, and to make myself stop.  We even bought smaller plates.  So much of it for me is perception.  Growing up, the rule around the house was 'clean your plate'.  I've never been a big sweet eater, so that wasn't an issue - although I've got a wicked weakness for Reeses miniatures.  Put a bag of those in front of me, and I turn into a human Dyson vacuum.  I stocked the kitchen at my office with the necessary foods and snacks, and rarely ever ate a meal out during lunch unless it was with a customer or a vendor.  And even then, I ate very lightly.  Maybe a piece of grilled fish or chicken, and a salad.   

In many ways, the weight gain I had a secondary negative impact as far as my personality went.  I became distant from friends, disliked going out to social functions, and it really sent me into a withdrawn state.  I had zero energy.  Rather than getting out and doing stuff - whether it was golf, fishing, working in the yard, I had developed a very bad couch potato syndrome - whether it was sitting on the couch or in front of my computer after work, and after everyone went to bed.  Staying up too late, not getting enough rest.  I had zero patience; even my 'online' persona became that of a complete asshole.  Bitter at everyone, hating everything.  The reality of it is, I hated myself, projected that outward to everyone and everything.  I was a tyrant at work.  Constant fighting with my wife.

It's been a radical lifestyle change back to where I was, say, 5 or 8 years ago.  And for me, it's been all for the better.  I spend less time online.  Less time gaming.  More time outside, being active.  I spend more time with friends - whether it's helping them with whatever, or if it's a social gathering.  I've gotten to know some old friends again that I'd lost touch with.  I couldn't tell you the last time I played my 360, or even fired up Steam.   I don't think I'll ever play another MMO, heh.  I can keep up with my 2 year old son.  Play tennis with and against my wife again.  I've started playing golf again, walking 9 holes every other day, and 18 every Saturday morning at daybreak either solo or with a regular foursome of guys I've met at the course.  I had forgotten how much I enjoyed walking the course, much less playing.  Dusted off my old Ping walking bag and tossed my Titleist cart bag into the closet.  Totally quit smoking. 

tl;dr version:  Started P90X, achieved fantastic results - loses 40 pounds in 10 weeks.  Drastic lifestyle change.  Man turns life around.  Becomes nicer and better person. 

You're a 33 waist at 181? Wow. How tall are you? I was a 34 at 228. I need to lose some weight since my diet I gained back 10 quickly (inevitable) but I constantly hover around 235, still fit into all the 34s and 36 pants I bought along with everything else.

Also, what you just described isn't cheating "a bit," it's pure professional help. :awesome_for_real: I can barely afford ramen.

Edit: (I did not become a nicer guy after losing 70 lbs, but then, I wasn't angry because I was fat, the fat had nothing to do with it, I'm angry because humanity is stupid, and losing some more weight ain't gonna make them less stupid). Also, all of this is a lot easier when you have a woman around kicking your ass to get it done, there's absolutely no question that it makes all the difference in the world.

Good discipline and maturity to get help, listen to it, and follow it through, though.

Have you stopped being a racist dick, along with all the other behavioural changes?

Nice story.

The food we eat and the habits we develop when we're young have such a big influence and most of us don't realise it. Getting help is always a good thing - if you're not in a position to get professional help just try and do something with a friend for motivational reasons.

Thanks for the followup.  That's a wonderful story and I hope people here are paying attention. 

Funny thing is that you've described my eating and lifestyle pretty well.  Except the social part...  I still mostly hate people.

That's the huge thing I noticed last year when I dropped about 40 (Thanks Nebu!).  All those little things had started spiraling so that I had become hugely withdrawn.

Really, I'm so happy that you are up and about and enjoying your life more.  Mad congrats!

Now, if I could find somewhere to hook up a pull up bar... :)

My own little mini update:  I've been cutting weight for about ten days.  Have lost about 9 pounds already - most of which within the first couple of days, due to all the excess water.  Still it's probably coming off a little too quickly, but I think that's because I became so proficient at shedding weight last year that I am struggling to figure out how to do it slowly.  An odd problem to have, I know.

The good news is that I believe my cutting phase will be much, much shorter than I expected and I do appear to be keeping the muscle for the most part.  I thought I was going to have to do it for a couple months, but it will be more like 2 or 3 weeks.  I haven't lost any strength so far, and I don't think I will.  That seems to be partly the result of the diet I'm on, which still keeps the protein and fat (good fat, duh) intake pretty high, but keeping the carb intake limited to around 100g a day.  Let me tell you - I know that there are more extreme low carb diets - but keeping it down to around 100g a day is fucking hard.  Even a lot of otherwise healthy snacks are just out for now. 

As far as the workouts go, I've essentially kept the same program of lifting weights (geared more for maintaining the strength rather than constantly increasing strength during the bulking phase) and added a little bit of cardio (kickboxing) every day to burn a few more calories.  And it's a good thing that I'm not trying to gain strength and size at the moment, because I have essentially maxed out my home gym, except for a few isolation exercises.  Yes, I've beaten my home gym.  Ah well...it served its initial purpose, and I surely didn't know how hard this bug was going to bite me.  There is a Power Rack on the horizon for when I begin my next bulking phase in a few weeks.  I really can't wait.  It's weird, because I used to be such a lazy fuck, but now I am going all OCD.

Try keeping it to ~0G for 15 weeks when you weigh 300+. :awesome_for_real:

I need to diet again, just because I'd love to drop 35 and hit 200.

0g carb diets may work, but they're terrible from a biochemical standpoint.  Your brain burns primarily glucose.  Forcing the body to manufacture glucose from fat and protein is asking for all kind of trouble unless you are smart about knowing EXACTLY what's going in the pie hole. 

Going on a diet is always a bad idea.  Permanently changing your diet is the key to long-term success. 

*Schild, you're an exception because you have some superhuman ability to stick with ridiculous denial diets. 

It helps that I fucking love meat and soy enough to just stop caring. As a gamer, I find it ridiculously easy to diet when I have the funds to support a diet. I have gained back a minimal amount of weight because I can't afford quality food. It sucks ass.

Yeah, the thing I like least about doing all this bulking and cutting is that I know it isn't great from a nutritional standpoint.  It's a rollercoaster ride for the body.  I'm going to try and take it easier for my next bulking phase, so that I can avoid too much of the fact gain and keep a more sensible diet.

But while we're on the topic, what would you say, Nebu, about the 100g carb approach?  I can see with my own eyes that it works, but is it still too few?  It seems like too few.  I wouldn't want to do it for long.  Can't even eat hardly any damn fruit, and I love me some fruit.  Not too mention my pretzel addiction.

Just think of it of not making it so hard on itself, foodwise, if you just do something to burn those carbs a little more. They're meant for burning, so there's no need to cut down to an intolerable level. In your case Cyrexx, then it sounds like you're being intense enough with exercise, then it's unnecessary. Besides, carbs go hand in hand with protein when lifting weights. They are a good thing. Honestly, I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish?

Here's the simple truth:  After a workout your body needs carbs.  The key is to deliver them in the right package.  Same goes for proteins.  Get to know and understand how your body deals with different carbs and proteins and you'll be able to eat better.  Complex carbs generate a slow release of insulin due to a slower delivery rate.  That makes them a great way to get the sugars your body needs (especially post workout) without creating a feeling that you crave more carbs.  Mono- and disaccharides will trigger huge insulin releases that last beyond carb intake making you crave more carbs.  This is where most people fall down.

Another thing I've learned that helps during the cut phase is that your body adjusts to caloric intake about every two weeks.  I've done some playing with high/low calorie diets and found that you can eat high calories for two weeks and become very anabolic.  After this, I would cut calories hard for two weeks and it would drive off the fat without crashing my metabolism.  The key is always maintaining high quality calories.  Lean proteins, complex carbs, and lots of water.  When you cut calories (say to the 1500 level), your body will slow your metabolism after 2 weeks to compensate for the fasting state.  If you can get calories back up after two weeks, the body never reaches fasting state.

Last tip: 5 - 6 small meals a day.  Regulates blood sugar and keeps metabolic rate more consistent.

I get all that, but some...."research"....seems to indicate that the best way to keep muscle and target the fat is to keep the carbs as low as possible, whilst continuing to keep relatively high levels of protein and (counterintuitively) fat consumption.  In my very short experience so far, it seems to be true.  I can feel that I have a bit less energy to burn during workouts, motivational willpower tends to make up for that.  OTOH, I seem to be so proficient at cutting weight that I could probably stand to eat more carbs.  In any event, consider it an academic discussion.  I am curious to hear Nebu's view on this more from a physiological stanpoint.

Fake edit:  posting this before reading Nebu's response.

Real edit:  thanks Nebu, that's a lot of great info.

If you cut carbs you will always lose 20-30% muscle in the process of burning fat stores.  Understanding basic catabolic metabolism will tell you this.  Carbs are the short term fuel source.  You want carbs.  The key is getting just the right amount and type of carbs.  Too much = bad.  Too little = bad.  Balanced carbs of the right type coupled to a low fat, high protein diet is the key.  There really are no shortcuts to this. 

Also, make sure that you are getting your B vitamins.  They are VITAL to metabolism.  Don't overdo it, but make sure you're getting 100% of what you need for supplements.  ADEK should be at 100% and the water solubles (B and C) can be a bit over since you'll just urinate off any excess.

Again, thanks for taking the time.

Without supplements, my diet seems to generally be giving me most of the vitams and minerals I need, so I'm less worried about that part.  It is essentially a healthy diet, with the possible exception that I'm being too anal about the carbs.  I probably cut more calories in general than I need to, for essentially the same reason.

My bulking diet on the other hand... :awesome_for_real:

Yet another "Lee Anecdote" (I don't mean to sound like a broken record.. I'm just currently interested in how it worked out for him) - It's interesting that supposedly he was a big pasta and noodle eater. According to his wife at least. He didn't know shit about cooking or nutrition according to her, so she prepared his meals. Yet he maintained peak quality until he died. I doubt that he fluctuated any more than between 3 and 6 percent body fat when you look at his all his pics, and he did it for that long (it's one thing to get cut, it's another to maintain it... even Leonidas is complaining now about his beerbelly).

Bruce Lee, 1. Is asian, and 2. Worked out harder than anyone on this board ever will. He could probably eat any goddamn thing he wanted, so it's not particularly "interesting" as you put it. Heh.

True enough. Heh. He definitely worked out a shitload. As for the genetics, he used to be a little soft (relatively speaking.. he wasn't defined, I mean). The famous story where the chinese sent a representative to kick his ass for teaching white people kung-fu is supposedly what sparked his interest in fitness (fitness outside martial arts). He immediately gained an advantage in the fight with a blow, but had the guy running all over the place.. Until Lee finally caught up with him and made him submit. So he was already a top martial artist, just by technique alone. But the people there said he was pissed -- he was upset that it took him 3 minutes to take that guy out, and that he was winded from chasing him around. So this was a turning point or something. [edit] I'm gonna drive myself crazy looking for it, but there was a quote where he was complaining that he was really out of shape when he was younger and even had a belly himself.

I'm 5'10" on a good day.  I'm very...what's the best word to describe my body type...compact?  It's like I should be about 6'2" or so, but someone squashed me down a bit.  I've also got freakishly big thunderthighs and calves, and carry a good bit of weight there.  Very little fat there now, but still.  I have a powerlifters physique.  Even when I was in the absolute best shape of my life back in college, I had a 31-32 inch waist.

There's no telling how much my watermelon head weighs.  And I've lost so much weight in my face, I'm seriously considering having plastic surgery done on my ears to make them lay back like they normally should.  Basically this:


I've always hated my ears, and wanted to have it done.

Also, that measurement is done where I wear my pants.  About one inch below the belly button.

Do the surgery. Your ears are horrendous.

Your FACE is horrendous!

And yet you lust for it.

Ignore me.

Your image link died.

Didn't read the thread, but did someone post a link to the study recently released that basicly said "it doesn't matter if you consume carbs, no carbs, fats, whatever.  All that matters is calories in and calories out"

If not, here you go http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/25/lowcarb-lowfat-study-find_n_170056.html

For weight loss.

It still matters what you eat though.

Sustainable weight loss in particular.  If you are training for something (I'm currently trying to build up to a marathon) then yes it matters.  I don't think that applies to 95% of the people here.

I'll qualify this. 

1) Nutrients matter. 
2) Fiber matters
3) Insulin release matters

Other than that, they are correct.  It's all about calories in vs BMR.

certain things are going to aid how you burn said calories. the right amount of carbs will keep you energetic.. and it's just good to cut down as much sodium and cholesterol as possible right now. not just because of the longterm ills, but also because it makes your blood volume increase, and in turn, makes your heart work harder. which in turn again, makes burning said calories and doing exercise harder than it needs to be.

i'm not even sure if it's possible without a complete "like makeover" to cut down sodium to "recommended" levels though - that's the sad thing about it. but we all could afford some cutting down. supposedly - the average american at least - we eat up to 5 to as much as 10 times more sodium than what is suggested. you'd be accomplishing something if you could even get it down to 2 or 3 times as much.  :grin:

[edit] i've been recently thinking of "iife as an rpg". like if you were tweaking efficiency and stats and time dedication and shit. in that respect, most of us are extreme gimps.

I don't think this is going out on a limb (maybe it is), but I tend to think that women care a great deal more about simply shedding weight, regardless of body composition.  Men seem to care less about actual weight and more about composition.  I'm sure this isn't always true, but that has been my experience. 

Sodium and cholesterol are my bane.  With the cholesterol, I just seem to be genetically inclined to have high cholesterol.  On the bright side, I have managed to significantly increase my "good" cholesterol over the past year.  Sodium...damn you tasty salty snacks!  I don't that I'll ever win that paticular battle. 


I'm just hoping to get my mount soon.

I have pretty shoddy armor. But my real problem is spending too much time in the auction house, buying pointless shit, and switching my classes too much. Very little mission completion and nothing to show for whatever hard work I've done. :why_so_serious:

I think the whole point of the study was to say "No this isn't true" or "it doesn't really matter in the long term"

Um, that entire article says absolutely nothing of substance.  The only thing it even gets close to saying is what we already knew...consume fewer calories than you burn, and you will lose weight.  There is nothing even remotely remarkable about that.  But it doesn't tell the whole story.

Also, people struggle to lose weight mostly because people really aren't trying very hard.  And this just in:  people gain all their weight back because they have not changed their body composition (BMR, metabolism), and then they go right back to consuming too many calories. 

But it does tell us quite a bit.  It tells us the other stuff doesn't really matter. It's all about calories and nothing else.  To be successful, you have to consume less calories than you burn.  Period.  Everything else is BS.


I disagree here.  I believe lots of people try hard and fail.  Here is my purely anecdotal theory:  People are idiots.  What's the first thing that most people I know do to lose weight?

The join a gym or buy Cardio exercise equipment.  And they lose 5 pounds for the first two weeks.  What they don't realize is that Cardio is fairly worthless by itself when it comes to losing weight in the long term.  Walk in any Gym, and look where the fat people are. 

They are almost always on the Cardio machines.  The fit people are doing resistance/weight training.  The problem with Cardio is that it gets too easy.  People actually believe those calorie burnt meters.  A fit person burns a lot less calories than a fatty on the elliptical.  And as they do it more, they will burn less and less.

And in the meantime, they still eat like idiots.

Sorry, I'll admit to not reading it. I thought it was just a rule of thumb sort of suggestion about the primacy of exercise. Which is true. To say what we eat doesn't really matter though would be silly. They go hand in hand. It might be safe to say that too many people want all of their good results from just diet, and that they should just exercise more -- but exercise needs it's only kind of fuels too. You are doing a two steps forward, one step back deal by carrying on a typical (bad) diet, yet exercising. And depending on what kind of exercise we're talking about, it can vary greatly. High protein is needed to build muscle, for instance. You wouldn't be getting the results you wanted if you lifted all day, but didn't have enough protein in your diet. Or if you simply wanted to lose weight, you wouldn't be getting the results you wanted by consuming tons of carbs either. The amount of carbs in a typical diet is simply too much -- and if you kept eating them, even while exercising, some of them aren't going to get burned -- and in turn, converted to fat stores. That's just how physiology works. It's not a mystery.

When the article says it "doesn't really matter", it is true when it comes to simply losing weight.  My counterpoint is that it matters a great deal what kind of weight your are losing, and whether or not you want to keep it off.  Or for that matter, it doesn't even ask the question of whether or not weight loss should even be the goal.  A highly irresponsible article, all in all.

Fat people on the cardio machines are people who are still consuming too many calories and not burning enough of them.  When I say they aren't trying hard enough, I mean it.  They would probably also be better served working their muscles as well as working their cardio....cardio burns calories RIGHT NOW.  Muscles burn calories ALL DAY LONG.  Also, muscle weighs more than fat, which is more than just hyperbole...it literally means that you can appear leaner than you currently are while maintaining a similar body weight....it has a secondary benefit of wrapping itself close to your body, unlike fat.  Shit, it it makes the question of how much you weigh to be moot.  People should worry more about body composition, and less about absolute weight totals. 

I think we are saying the same thing here (you are just saying it better)

Mini update.  Bought a Power Rack (for safe squats), a 300 lb Olympic bar/weight set and a bench.  I've simply outgrown the cheap little single station I bought, and it wasn't letting my do anything to mimic the squats.  And holy fuck did I need it...the first day I did squats in my new rack had me hobbling like an old geezer for almost five days afterwards.  Getting better now, but damn...I was neglecting my legs a little more than I thought.  Rack is real good for all kinds of bench press exercises, military presses and pull-ups/chin-ups.  Very happy.

I don't really know what my goal is, at the moment.  I didn't quite cut all the body fat I wanted to cut, but with the new weight set I don't think I can resist starting another bulking phase.  Right now I'm kind of hovering a little.

Another thing about a good squat rack:  It's VERY versatile.  You can easily build a dip station using the safety bars and if you have a top bar, you can use it for pullups with a variety of grips.  Get yourself a 2x4 and you can also work your calves.  If I had a better home gym I'd have a four things: a good incline bench that can be used for abs/decline work, a squat rack, a stationary bike, and a treadmill that can get to a 15 degree incline. 

If you want to build muscle mass, make sure that you gear your workouts for intensity.  I lift 4 times a week and my workouts are short (30-40 mins).  The goal is to have a short, high-intensity abuse of targeted groups (M/Thurs = Chest, shoulders, calves; Tues/Fri = Arms, back, quads).  I never do more than 5-6 reps of any exercise and I typically do 4-5 sets.  The key is to work to failure in 5 reps.  Any more than that and you're building muscle stamina, not mass.

I'm going to try something radical for the 12 weeks this summer.  I'm going to abandon my strength training for an all natural program.  Dips, pullups, pushups, etc.  with a lot of mileage.  I want to see how my body adjusts to a more utilitarian workout regiment.

Please to be explaining how to convert the safety bars into something I can use for dips.  That's the one thing I'm missing.  My triceps aren't really much of a problem though, as I have alternatives and for whatever reason, my triceps have always been one of the better defined muscles on my body.

I am currently doing 4 sets at moderately intense levels as I sort of get my muscles used to the free weights.  I guess I don't have a real strict regimen at the moment, as I am basically just "finding my range" with the new equipment for now and trying to figure out what my current goals need to be.  Once I do, It'll probably be pyramid sets (1x10, 1x8, 2x6, 1x8, 1x10) where the 2 sets of 6 are at heavy weight and to failure.  This seems to work well for me, though I may cut out the two 1x8 sets as I'm not sure they add anything.

Also, what are you doing for calves?  Something with a 2x4?

1) Make two bars that attach perpendicular to the safety bars.  Using clamps, you can adjust the width to your liking. Or you can just buy something like these:

(http://store.valueweb.com/bwproducts/catalog/R04BD%20Store%20Photo.jpg)

2) Take a 2x4 and bolt it to a thick board.  Stand on it with your toes and use your squat weight for calves.

(http://www.healthbrands.com.au/resources/stand_calf_raises.gif)

Hmm, I think attaching them to the safeties would be a potential problem.  Hmm.  I'll think about it.  Then again, I don't think I really need the dips.

The 2x4 thing is obvious, in hindsight.  I had visions of something far crazier and torturous.

Every 4 or 5 months my trainer shifts me from a Lean Muscle program (stamina)  to a Muscle Mass building program.  I enjoy the change of pace and I've had good results.

That's encouraging.  I haven't done this radical a change in my workouts since I was in my 20's.  I'm hoping to get back up around 40 miles of road work a week and reshape my body into something a lot more natural.  My diet has been really good, so the extra aerobic work should help me drop to 6% body fat in no time.  Right now, I'm around 10-12% and I feel really sluggish though it is nice to be able to bench and military press the same weight I did at 22.

The hardest thing to maintain is being both big and lean.  I can pack on the muscle by lifting and eating like a madman, but I lose so much muscle mass while cutting.  I think a more aerobic routine may be a better fitness package. 

Actually, I doubt you will get those kind of results.  If you are looking to reduce your fat percentage, then you need to keep building muscle mass.  Cardio only burns calories while you are doing it, where building more muscle mass makes you burn more calories all day. 

In other words, as you lose muscle mass (which you will) you burn less calories.  Now if you are training for a marathon (like I am), but not so fine if you are just trying to lower body fat percentage.

Yes, I understand the metabolism bit very well.  I'm talking about changing my build rather than optimizing my BMR.  Building muscle mass is all fine and good until to try to carry it around during hiking, climbing, and other more aerobic activities.  The added mileage with a more natural approach is to offset the decreased BMR.  If I train more for muscle stamina than for size, I should have improved flexibilty and a lighter load along with a more natural looking physique.  Right now, I'm about 12" bigger in the chest than I am in the waist with pretty big thighs.  It's a pain in the ass to find clothes that fight well in a McDonalds society.  I'd be happy with a smaller and leaner build even if my body fat % stayed around 10% or so. 

God help me, we're doing this in two weeks, and I've decided to join. I'm having a lot of fun with muscle building workouts mixed with running on the treadmill. Diet is super low, but the weight's coming off super slow. I'd like to think it's that way because I'm adding so much muscle.

If you restrict calories too much, your metabolism will slow to compensate.  Keep your diet within 500 cal of your daily consumption for best results.  Oh... low fat and only complex carbs too. 

Necro...

So....

Does this thing actually work? Anything you would need to buy beyond the kit itself?

In short, I work too many hours and get home too late (normally) to bother trekking out to some damn gym. An hour a day, in the comfort of my own home/apartment, seems workable.

However, I don't plan on changing my diet to some arcane formula or whatever, though my diet as of now isn't even terrible; I just don't exercise. Would be super-useful to have once I move overseas, where in many places there are no such things as "gyms."

I would say that the results are 60% exercise, 40% diet.  If you don't follow the diet, you won't get the results.  I see the same in the gym.  I can lift like a madman, but I only look my best when I watch my diet religiously and drink at least a gallon of water a day.  I'll also warn you that the failure rate for home workout is VERY high.  The advantage of a gym is that once you're there, you feel compelled to make the best of it.  Peer pressure seems to be helpful as well. 

I'm honestly not trying to get terribly cut...just some damn exercise so I don't die from being inactive for months at a time. I'm the heaviest I have ever been (though no one can tell, apparently), and I'd like it to stop.

Plus, following the diet probably requires eating salad or something...that's just not going to happen.

Calories in > Calories Burned = Weight Gain

That formula doesn't change.   Salad is a useful tool because 1) Veggies have good things for you and 2) It's a high bulk/low caloric meal, so can help maintain a full feeling.     I personally don't do a lot of salad these days, but I do mix in a lot of spinach and other leafy greens and vegetables with my meals to help bulk them out without adding a ton of calories and fat.  

You may need to discover this yourself, I certainly did, but exercising without changing your diet simply is going to lead you into a cycle where you will work out, find yourself starving, and then eat more.  You'll certainly be in better cardiovascular conditioning, but you won't burn fat.    

I didn't do P90X.    Instead, about 2 1/2 years ago, I hit my heaviest point ever.  I bought an ellipitcal, because that's what you do.  I spent 45 minutes on it a day.  I maxed out its resistance and religiously cycled through it's program settings for variety.  

In six months, I lost a total of 5 lbs.   It wasn't until I got serious about both exercise (Strength and cardio at the gym) and diet that I saw the results I wanted.

What I'd recommend if you don't want to get seriously cut, but simply want to up your activity -

Look into something like the couch to 5K program for running and simply make an effort to cut out the worst offenders (Soda and snacks) from your diet.  That alone will probably net you some significant results.  

I should elaborate. My diet isn't the problem; I drink mostly water (though been doing more of that Vitamin Water stuff lately; found a flavor I can tolerate), and my caloric intake is probably not horrific. I also have high metabolism. I've actually started to look at labels when I eat things, and cut out the really egregious stuff like eating Ben and Jerry's when I'm home alone and bored on a weekend.

The problem is sitting in the office for 10-12 hours a day, and then coming home at night and...sitting around.

Also, no outdoor distance running; soft arch makes me practically flatfooted, and I have questionable cartilage in the knees...though for whatever reason, treadmills are fine.

I'm a fan of lifestyle workouts. More stairs, park at the far end of the lot. Carry all the grocery bags (hey, I look chivalrous, too!). Find ways to do things the hard way. Chop wood. Use the push mower instead of the riding mower. Shovel anything under 8" of snow.

That's great and all, but how much wood do you have that needs chopping?  Carrying groceries and walking from the far end of the parking lot doesn't really cut it in the conditioning department for a lot of people.

Treadmills help cushion the impact of your foot so it doesn't stress your joints to the extent that running on asphalt/concrete will. 

Depending on what you have near you, swimming and yoga may be really good alternatives for you to look into. They're both low impact solid cardio workouts that won't require you to spend a ton of cash up front on a home gym.    If you look into a gym membership, spinning classes are also a ridiculously good workout.  Or if you don't want to join a gym, biking in general is a great workout - if you have a good location to ride that is.

Look at how you picked that apart. Nicely done. My point is, if you approach life as a way to burn calories, you can make some decisions that will help you be more fit and healthier. I work with several people who will try to cram in a workout into their lunch break, but take the elevator.

The specifics don't matter, it's being more aware of how you live life and consciously choose the path that will burn more calories every day.

And diet still is an issue if you've 'just started' to look at labels. You have to develop a general plan for each day. I had added a paragraph about my fiancee's Weight Watcher membership that I deleted because she hates when I get too personal about her. But I watch her input her daily meals every night and it's an extremely powerful tool, just like keeping a budget that accounts for your finances can be. Seeing the input and some of the output (point discounts for exercise, we usually walk 45 mins a night), and there's also a tally for your RDA of veg/protein/etc. It's a good overview. Makes me chuckle, too, because although I'm not as concerned about diet as she, I tend to eat almost perfectly by WW standards - I tend to snack on apples and bananas, eat lots of lean protein and really bulk up the dinner plate with veg. The biggest thing I've learned from her is lots more mini-meals and smaller formal meals. And I'm blessed with no sweet tooth.

Even though you don't think diet is an issue, you might want to think about at least getting the WW web sub for a few months to see how it's really impacting the equation. For me personally, I have to watch caloric intake, because although I'm somewhat active, I used to be extremely active, and my body has 30 years of that in its muscle memory. It wants to eat like I'm still unloading trucks and riding my bike for miles followed by some rock climbing and swimming. Which brings me back to trying to find outlets, no matter how small, to burn calories in everyday life. It does add up, even if I'm burning an extra 100 calories a day, that's a "free" beer and over the course of a year is a huge amount of calories burned.

Also, to answer Arnold's question:

Yeah, diet is aboslutely critical.  I mean sure, you CAN eat anything you want and still be in great shape, but that tends to be for people doing really crazy amounts of physical activity.  I've always said : Get strong in the gym, get cut in the kitchen.

If you can't wrap your head around this, you're missing the point of staying healthy.

Track your calories formally, not informally.  Get a 5x7 notebook and write EVERYTHING that passes your lips down.  Commit to doing this for two weeks.  That's all, just two weeks.   Then after that two weeks actually do the math on it to find out what your caloric intake was.   You'll then have a clearer picture of exactly what you've been doing in terms of calorie intake.  If anything, you should guess that you'd been eating more prior to writing it down than during.

You need some physical activity, but what you're doing is making excuses.  If you really wanted to do something physical you would.  There's no other way around it.   There's resources on the web to find lots of low-impact activities (Swimming is one) as well as resources at gyms or your doctor to find what works best for your physically.

The one thing I will say is that you have to find something you enjoy doing.  I hate running but love swimming. If I were told I had to run daily, I'd find all kinds of excuses not to do it and I'd never make it past a mile.  I fucking hate treadmills and had access to one for years but never used it. On the other hand I've started swimming regularly and do about a mile 3 times a week after joining a gym with a pool only three months ago.  (1760 yards, or 71 laps in a 25yd pool)

A few things:

Unfortunately, some of the stuff I end up eating from the downstairs cafeteria doesn't come with labels...would be hard to calculate that stuff. Or if I make a sandwich at home - how the heck do you calculate that?

You're right - I don't want to do something physical. Unless I'm skiing or playing hockey or something, I just don't find it to be all that enjoyable...that's not the point. Point is that I need something more convenient than coming home late at night, and having to turn around to go to...some gym (not even sure where). Another plus to this system is that I can take it with me when I move...not many gyms or treadmills where I am headed.

I think we got way off track on diets and such; just need to know if the system generally works, for real.

What do you mean by "generally works"? 

Will it improve your general fitness level.  Yes.  Could you achieve the same increase in fitness level on your own without the program?  Yes. 

Buy a pair of power block dumbells (http://www.amazon.com/PowerBlock-Adjustable-45-Pounds-per-Set/dp/B000A6QINW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=sporting-goods&qid=1278349515&sr=8-1) and a chin up bar (http://www.amazon.com/Maximum-Fitness-Gear-Doorway-Exercises/dp/B002LN9XJI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=sporting-goods&qid=1278349569&sr=1-1) and surf the web for workout routines.  If you use these items for 3 days a week for a minimum of 30 mins a day and do aerobic activity at least 3 other days a week, you'll see great gains in fitness in the first 90 days. 

The P90X routine is hard.  If you're not already fit you will not be able to keep up.  This means you'll go slower / do less than the people in the video and it may be easy to get discouraged.  I was already jogging 3 days a week when I tried the squatting routine and I couldn't keep up.  After sticking with it I could complete it with actual fitness gains; last time I went on a snowboarding trip I didn't get sore at all.

But like Nebu said it's just a set of routines.  Nothing magical.  For the routines you need weights / elastic bands and a pull-up bar.  An exercise mat would help.  If you are arcade loss for an exercise routine then the videos will get you there.

Everyone harps on diet because it is very important.  The P90X materials make it clear a poor diet will not produce fitness results, and it outlines what you should be eating.  If that's too complicated then start with simple things I did like no more coke in the fridge, fruit/nut snack instead of a candy bar and reducing fast food interactions will get you on the healthy train and you won't look back.

Also, read SnakeCharmer's post showing how diet is key if you haven't already:

Thanks for the reminder; I remember reading most of that previously.

The thing that will hinder me no matter what I do is diet. I don't really drink soda anymore. Weekdays, if anything I under-eat because I'm just too damn busy. However I have a wicked sweet tooth, though I've taken to making a bit of oatmeal with Silk to alleviate that.

The big problem will be cooking and such; when it comes to cooking I just do not have the patience (or the know-how, and probably not the right instruments either). While I'm fine waiting 30-45 minutes when sitting in a restaurant, I simply cannot sit around prepping food that I cannot eat; it would drive me nuts late at night. Also, raw vegetables just won't happen, especially salad (just cannot stomach it).

So...it will be interesting.

To get good results you'll have to overcome this.   There's no easy way to say it.  Some of it you can get by simply by buying a grill pan (for fish, shrimp, chicken, or turkey burgers).  It takes next to no prep to slap a chicken breast on a grill pan, season it, and turn.  I also suggest eating more brown rice as it can be easily made with a rice cooker or you can simply buy the single serving microwave pouches.  

Simply stated: There's no shortcut to a healthy lifestyle.  That's the reason the diet business makes hundreds of billions of dollars every year.  People want a shortcut where no long-term shortcut exists.  If you want to get healthy and fit you need to learn to make healthy meals for yourself.  These will include raw/steamed veg, whole grains, and lean protein.  Eating anything else just won't lead to being healthy.  Making simple substitutions initially will help you move toward this goal and that's something I strongly recommend.  Once you start a workout program, you'll find that your food tastes and cravings will change.  After you begin to eliminate processed foods from your diet, you'll find that you crave them less... and many of them will even stop tasting good.  

That sounds mostly doable, if I can bypass blasted salads; I'd rather starve than eat cold lettuce and other veggies. :uhrr:

Now I just have to figure out how to cook without killing myself with salmonella or botulism. :oh_i_see:

Start easy: get steam-in-bag veg from the frozen section and Uncle Ben's steam-in-bag whole grain rice. It's not the best stuff in the world, but a slab of cod takes about ten minutes in the oven and by then the veg and rice is ready, I do it for a lazy "don't feel like cooking" meal. I am looking into getting a steamer and rice cooker, though, the quality of the stuff I mention is getting a bit wearing, and there are additives in the rice I'd like to cut (plus save $ in the long run).

I'd like to add: Don't "do cardio", do conditioning.

Don't be one of the hamsters you see clogging the gyms, living on a treadmill that's set at 1.5mph while staring blankly at a TV screen.  If you are going to get your heart pumping, do it for a purpose. 

 :google:

http://www.google.com/search?q=calorie+counter&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
http://www.thecaloriecounter.com/

Woah, hard.

Yeah, the cafeteria food will probably be low and it's not going to be 100% accurate.  That's not the point.. the point is you'll see approximately how far over 2k calories you are.  I bet you'll be surprised.

I'm just going to ask is it genuinely cold veggies you don't like or when you think salad do you think chopped iceberg lettuce with soggy tomatoes slathered in ranch dressing? Cause I'd hate that shit but a bowl of rocket and spinach leaves with some fresh tomatoes, toasted pine nuts and mustard vinaigrette is totally delicious (with a little goats cheese on occasion). I hate sounding like one of those "You hate X? You just haven't had good X, I'll cook some for you and you'll love it!" when someone genuinely just doesn't like the stuff but making a decent salad is so easy and healthy that it's great to find some form of it you enjoy.

The cooking thing really isn't too hard and just takes some practice, advice from someone who taught themselves to cook more or less. It is worth finding a decent cookbook to start with simply because it is very easy when you start to learn one or two dishes and just kind of stick to that. A recipe books makes variety much easier and really helps planning meals and shopping for them, Jamie Oliver's Ministry of Food (I think it's Food Revolution in the States) is apparently a decent one for simple, healthy meals.

I guess I should state here I'm trying to get into some sort of shape that's not soft and pudgy. I've never really been fit or healthy and probably was in best shape a couple of years ago at the end of my BA just because I'd started running 3 or 4 times a week consistently. Since then I've gotten lazy again, do lots of walking but that's really it for exercise, occasionally SCUBA diving is really my only other activity and that's not much of a work out. Trying to start running again (I can manage about 3 miles and then my lungs decide it's time to get the hell out, doesn't seem to overly wear my muscles but clearly my aerobic system is shit) and bought some free weights. I don't hugely enjoy either but really I don't, and never have, enjoyed exercise. Importantly I don't hate them, I do hate team or competitive sports, so seems like my only option. Any tips on ways people have found to pace increasing exercise regimes or should I just stick to googling this stuff?

When I tried starting jogging in the past I would push myself too hard and get injured.  If you hit 3 miles out the gate I would be careful about getting hurt.  And I found it helpful to run for a set time instead of distance.  I first started at 19 minutes and am now up to ~45 with slow/fast/slow intervals (intervals are much better than running at one pace).  Oh and decent running shoes make a big difference; I used to run in anything and would get shin splints but now my cheapy Saucony shoes keep me going.

If you want to work up to about 3 miles (5K), I really really recommend the couch to 5K program.  It does a fantastic job of easing your body (Not just cardio, but your muscles and joints) into running that distance and minimizing your chance of injury.  Once you have that down and want to increase  your distance, Hal Higdon's site (http://www.halhigdon.com/) has a variety of training plans that people seem to like.   On a side note - once you hit about 3 miles multiple times  a week, you will most likely want to invest in a good pain of running shoes.  Go to an actual running store where they can judge your stride and recommend the proper shoe.

Yes, but like anything, you get out what you put in - and doing anything is better than doing nothing.  I still use it, although I'm not using the schedule it recommends.  I mostly do the plyo, yoga, stretching, and core stuff and watch my diet/how I eat mixed in with daily cardio, tennis, or walking the front nine at my local golf course.  I basically do what I want to do when I want to do it.

It was a great kick in the ass, though.  And it will kick your ass.

My wife is pretty hardcore about it.  Which is a good thing because it keeps my diet in check.  A proper diet is always the hardest thing for me because I've got such a wicked sweet tooth and love all the Southern foods that are really, really really bad for you.  Anyway, she does the routine religiously, follows the diet, and it keeps her in as good as or better shape than when she was a gymnast in college.

No, I genuinely hate cold veggies. Maybe it's a texture thing? I like dressing and vinaigrette and such, but cold and raw lettuce, tomatoes, cucumbers... :uhrr:
I have slightly more tolerance for raw fruit; bananas are fine, clementines are ok if they're just ripe enough, pineapples...but apples, oranges, grapes...blech...it's a shame because the actual flavors are fine, but I can only do a bite or two before my mouth just rejects the stuff.

Yes, I'm terrible.


Back to actual p90x....what do you do when you hit the 90-day mark; do you just start at the beginning of the program again?

In that case you're just broken :awesome_for_real:

More on topic, thanks for the advice and suggestions. The couch potato to 5K thing seems aimed at people even less fit than I am but it's a nice start and the buying decent running shoes seems like a good idea if I'm going to do this even semi-serious. Like I said I'm not utterly inactive, I've always lived in city places and like/try walking everywhere (including stairs) but actually making some effort to avoid injures is probably a good idea. One of the things that prompted this was after a diving/camping weekend a couple of weeks ago I seem to have pulled/done something to my right hamstring that has resulted in undoing any stretching over the last few years and it made me think maybe I should actually get off my ass (that and looking in a mirror and going, "That looks a lot like a double chin is about to start"). Time to start running regularly and eating more salad, thanks guys.

I had my wife take a picture of me from the front, the side, and the back while wearing only boxer shorts.

I found it to be quite the motivator. 

Sure.  Modify it a bit.  Do double routines, increase your weight, whatever.  It's flexible.  I like it because it's genuinely fun, the guy is a great motivator (even if more than a bit cheesy, but that's fine), and I get results with it.

If you do the routine and stay in the top 2 tiers of Michi's Ladder (http://www.beachbody.com/category/michis_ladder.do), you'll see results.  Don't worry about following some sort of ultra strict no fun diet regimine other than staying in the top 2 levels, and you'll be fine.  With the exception of fish and the exclusion of red meat and sweets (particularly chocolate), the adjustment to ONLY those kinds of foods was easy for me since I love veggies and fruits.  To be fair, there's not much I won't eat and I still splurge on a steak, bbq, or pork tenderloin every now and then.  There's nothing wrong with treating yourself every couple of weeks.

My stomach is going to be a sad panda.  :crying_panda:

Cool page.

Can I turn this into a Crossfit/Military Athlete thread or should we make seperate thread?

I'm a huge believer in mind over matter.  You need to go out there and kick the ever loving shit out of those soggy vegetables.  You will be surprised out how well such an approach will work, if you get your mind in the right place.  You may end up liking the stuff, despite your protests.  It is actually rather unatural for you to have such an aversion to healthy foods like raw vegetables, and that should tell you something important.  It should scare the piss out of you, really.

Also, I say it in every thread like this and have said it in this thread, too:  Make very specific goals.  "I want to kind of get in better shape" is not a specific goal.  Figure out exactly what you want, and then find the most efficient means of getting there.  Spell it out here exactly, and you'll get better advice.  You may find that you have several different goals, some of which are a bit contradictory (which just means you should probably parse them out into several shorter term goals).

Eh, I've disliked the stuff...from birth. Has nothing to do with liking/disliking healthy foods. I've actually gotten better over the years; when I was younger red sauce was a no-no. I can do many cooked vegetables to various quantities.

How are raw veggies & fruits for you Strazos?  I luv raw carrots, celery, radishes (the hotter the better!), kohlrabies, fresh baby yellow squash (smaller is better, the big stuff tends to be really bitter & especially the green squash), some zucchini (I still hate it a lot, has to do with having so much of it growing up I couldn't stand it for years!  Damn thing grows freaking everywhere & produces a ton of crop!), plus I'm not big on dressings so eating them plain is fun for me.  I tend to do a low fat low calorie when I diet, but I'm still a big moderation fan.

Hey Nebu or others, anyone done any research on age and metabolism slowing down?  I know I'm not insanely built like my son is (he is 14, swims 2x a day and works out...kinda like I used too & is in decent shape), but it seems I really have to combine strict diet and strict exercise or I can't maintain a health weight anymore  :sad:  Of course my height & weight optimum is like 5'6" so I should be 135 lbs to 140 lbs.  It freaking hurts to get back down, but once there it isn't too bad to maintain, but my work schedule sucks with 12 hr shifts that turn into 13 hrs, then travel and family time, so it can be a bear to keep on the routine.

Grrr now I have to start running, dang kido signed us up for a 5k race in 2 months!  Oh running shoes that fit are awesome!  I went and had myself fitted and can't believe my feet have grown!  @ least the flat feet didn't set in (still just a slight over pronation nothing too bad), so I went with a decent support shoe from Brooks and the right size, wow!  Bought a pair for work and for working out and I'm enjoying walking and jogging again.  Going to suck to half to buy sandals, boots, and dress boots/shoes again this fall, but it is worth it!

I do know of 2 diet pills out there but Orlistat or Alli is freaking hell on your gut to some people, and the Adderall XR is being prescribed by many of the Doc's & Mid Levels (most are requiring monthly check-ups and progress and only writing 1 month supply...some doc's are still Rx'ing without care though...).  Either way those are temporary things for people who are stuck or need a boost, but then there is still not a magic bullet.  And if you can do it without drugs way freaking better!  Oh and if you have any type of addictive personality don't ever try them.

Here's what I teach as a guideline: Your hepatic and renal clearance will decrease approximately 1% per year after 35.  I would imagine that this also has an effect on metabolism, but think that it can be easily countered by maintaining muscle mass.  If you wish to keep your BMR up, then your best bet is to build mass in the large muscle groups (lats, pecs, delts, quads, gluts) in the gym. 

Anectodal thoughts: I've noticed that both my BMR and ability to pack on muscle mass have declined with age.  I'm fit for being in my 40's, but I'm nothing like the machine I was in my 20's.  I lift for 60-90 mins a day, 5 days a week and run almost daily just to maintain what I could easily do in 3 days a week during my late 20's.  Running was also easiest in my 30's, but that's quite common. 

Most kids dislike that stuff from birth.  Take that as you will.

For the most part, completely unacceptable. The things you mentioned I can eat...cooked.

As weird as it sounds, my mouth just gets...bored of the stuff, and rejects it. For instance, I can probably do a bite or two of apple. I like apple juice. I can eat limited amount of applesauce or apple pie. But eventually...it's hard to explain, but the back of my mouth and tongue just well up, and I just can't eat it anymore. Same thing happened last time I tried some honeydew and cantaloupe in yogurt. It also happens with poorly-prepared flank steak (not marinated, or overcooked on the grilled and somewhat charred). It's bizarre, and unexplainable, so I just avoid the stuff.

Good thing I don't eat for a living or something.

I know this will sound odd, but as someone that does survival training... I'd say that you're just not hungry enough.  If you cut your caloric intake to about 1500 per day for 2 weeks, I guarantee that in 5-6 days a salad will taste delightful.  Humans develop taste preferences out of luxury.  I've found that I'm a very picky eater by nature, but once I've been in the wilderness for 7 days with little to no food, I'll begin to eat things that I would otherwise never consider. 

Bottom line:  If you want to change your eating habits, it can and will happen.  You just have to decide that it's what you want to do.  If you limit your choices to only those foods that are healthy, you'll find them to be very tasty in time.  It's all about retraining.  If you don't want to change your eating habits, that's just fine.  Own that and live with the fact that you need to alter your expectations accordingly. 

Mmmm, had a monster salad tonight and it was delicious.  Pretty basic - romaine, celery, carrot, radish, mushroom, tomato, avocado, basil, almonds, homemade vinaigrette and about 1/4lb of chopped, grilled tri-tip.

You don't know what you are missing!

I'm going to assume that you're being sarcastic.  Depending on size, the avocado, the almonds, and the tip (I assume beef) could drive the calories and fat of that salad up to McDonald's range.  That's not a salad, that's dinner on lettuce.    4 oz Tri tip ~ 350 Cal, medium avocado ~ 250 Cal, tomato ~ 100 Cal, almonds ~250 Cal.  That salad is already up to 950 Cal not counting the dressing oil.  If you wanted to eat healthy, the salad would lose the red meat.  You already have avocado and almonds as your fat.  

Nope, totally serious.  Considering that I only ate two meals yesterday and one of them was the salad, I don't see anything wrong with it being ~1k calories.  And I'll just pass over your misguided attack on red meat.

Two meals a day = bad.  Red meat = fine in moderation, but far better choices could be made.  Most red meat (bison being the exception) is too high in fat percentage to be a good, healthy choice. 

If you want to argue biochemistry, physiology, or nutrition, I'm more than happy to go there. 

Having a resident bio-chemist is fun.  :awesome_for_real:

I'd like to get your input about some stuff I had heard recently (from the low carb/diabetes camps) showing that the human system doesn't actually digest fat the way everyone^tm thought it did.  That higher saturated-fat diets (red meat) can improve quantities of 'good' cholesterol and that diets higher in processed carbohydrates (bread, pasta, etc...) can increase quantities of bad cholesterol?

At least, I think that this is what is being said here: http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/07/diet-heart-hypothesis-subdividing.html

Also, I would like to get your input on this break down of a steak:

I'm up for talking about CrossFit, I've been messing about with it recently and it's fairly fun.

Am I the only guy that thinks that these folks are missing the point?  (The point being "eat less and exercise")

Great! I do quite a bit of Crossfit, but lean more towards the Military Athlete (http://www.militaryathlete.com/) stuff. MA is more about practical strength and ways to maintain develop yourself when you're deployed with little to no fitness equipment. A lot of it is short duration, max effort stuff with the idea being that it's far more likely to find yourself in a situation where you'd benefit more from explosive strength than marathon stamina.

On that note, here's my workout for today:


At some point I'm sure I'll talk about a non-standard exercise. You can find videos of them on this page. (http://mtnathlete.com/page.php?page_ID=14)

It's cute that you think that stuff you quoted was about weight loss.

Anyway, to play your silly little game, you know that sort of thermodynamics equation that usually goes calories in - calories out = wieght gain/loss?

While true in the ultimate sense doing so in good health is more complicated than that.

Interesting, I hadn't heard of the Military Athlete stuff, thanks for the link. As far as I get Crossfit (and Crossfit seems to be a very broadly applied term) the main goal is to do very mixed-up workouts, with a focus on speed and intensity. I was doing 5x5 a year or so again, and then moved into more low-rep, high-set workouts. Now I'm swinging back to doing a mix of high-rep, low-weight days and more conventional low-rep, high-weight days. So far it seems to be working, but I'm tempted to completely restructure how I work out, which I haven't done in an organised way in ages. I recently trained up to do a 300, and dropped about 2.5kg in weight, without any decrease in my max Deadlift, Squat or Bench (my bench actually went up by 5kg the week after the 300). My main problem with CrossFit type training where you focus on max rounds is that I found my recovery times between workouts increased noticeably; I'm not sure where the balance between adequate and too much training intensity is.

The aspect of CrossFit which I find the most fun are the non-standard exercises. Ones which I like are one-leg deadlifts and explosive bench using a smith machine. If you are having to train equipment-free then I'm all about dips.

I find that goals really help me progress; out of interest what are your goals?

GO Ugly sounds like something from Friday nights after being in the field for 4 weeks (or more),  ;D
But the site is great!

It is great produce time!  You all should be getting out to the farmers markets or to the actual fields and buying some awesome veggies and fruits!  New potatoes and green beans in a crock pot are awesome.

Sure, it's important to eat a balanced diet.  Don't we already know what that involves? 

(I thought this was an exercise/weight loss thread.)

The contention is that, no, we don't.  Apparently any nutrition study ever done involving lab animals that are not human is possibly fundamentally flawed by a misunderstanding of the function of the human liver and the cholesterol production process.

Which is why I'd like to get Nebu's take on it.

Emulate the oldest people in your family.

I can see your point.   I tend to be very wary of 'new discoveries'  as it seems like there is always some business that stands to make money that's funding the research.. .

I'll definitely get back to you on this.  I'm out of town until tomorrow, but have some thoughts.  My initial impression is that their conclusions only consider a very isolated case.  I'll elaborate soon.

Probably the best advice out there.  Wish I knew what they'd done.  Grandfather's Father lived to 103, Grandmother's Mother lived to 98.  Gramps lived to 86, dying due to a stroke from 60 years of smoking half a pack a day and grandma died a few years later from not taking care of herself.  Other grandfather died 3 years ago to leukemia from smoking at 80, while grandma is 82 in January and still going strong if a little demented.  They all ate like shit. Fried Chicken Hearts being dad-gramps favorite while the other lived on big Southern Meals with grits & bacon.

Meanwhile, Dad died 2 years ago at 65 after fighting leukemia for 7 years due to Agent Orange exposure and Mom's had 2 bouts with breast cancer by the age of 59 due to smoking and is probably 80+ # overweight due to grief eating.

Really at this point I just say "Fuck it, it's a craps shoot so all you can do is enjoy yourself."  I do the fitness thing now because I feel better when doing it, not to try and live longer.  With my luck I'll get a blood clot in the leg that kills me at 40.

So...holy crap, this P90x stuff is pretty damn legit, and the exercises are amazing simple (so far, after day 2  :grin:)...but that simplicity belies the program's...ass kickery? I don't know, but I'm whooped after I (mostly) finish these workouts.

So I'm just hoping I can stick with this; I feel like I'm pot-committed at this point, after spending more than $250 on the program and equipment.

Yowza.

I tried P90X, but I don't have the room for all the equipment to do it and I'd much prefer a full body to a split. I haven't been able to find a full body that gets everything though, anyone had any luck with one?

I started writing a long and descriptive passage of "nerd-speak", but decided that it would be better answered this way: They're cherry picking.  The conversion that they're describing is highly specific and under some pretty limited circumstances that require fairly large excesses of FA (fatty acid) stores being moved around for transport.  If you're taking in only enough fat for caloric requirements, then it will all be broken down by beta-oxidation and associated pathways.  The result being large quantites of acetyl-CoA and occasionally some succinyl-CoA (in the case of odd-number carbon chain FA).  The part of their statement that I can agree with is that high processed carb intake can cause problems physiologically.  These problems tend to manifest themselves quite differently that we see with saturated fat and red meat associated situations. 

Replacing a lot of carbs with saturated fats may help with LDL levels to a minute degree, but you're ultimately just trading one problem for another.  I need to find their article on the conversion of steric acid to oleic acid.  I just can't envision a circumstance where that would happen unless monounsaturated, mid-chain fats were required for specific membrane components and synthesized to fit that need. 

Lantyssa have anything to add here?  I'm not much of an expert on the ancillary pathways of FA synthesis or conversion. 

The P90X stuff is pretty minimal (pull-up bar, weights/elastic bands, mat and chair/couch, possibly push-up bars), if you don't have room for that what else could you do to exercise at home?

The problem for me is I don't enjoy lifting weights partly because I'm a weakling and partly because weights are boring.  But the resurrection of this thread like a phoenix from the ashes of my last pizza has motivated me to go through the routine to build up some muscle and exercise smarter than just jogging.

EDIT:  I won't be doing the sit-ups since they look stressful on the lower back.  If I find a good plank routine instead I'll post it.

What do you mean by "getting everything"?  Full body routines should focus on large muscle groups and expect that smaller groups will be worked in the process.  For example, working back will secondarily work biceps and working chest will secondarily work triceps.  I've used some excellent german volume training routines that did no isolation exercises and still got amazing gains in my arms during the 6 weeks. 

I know nutrition is always personal dependent, but could Nebu or somebody make a quick comment on this?

Trying to get my lazy ass back to working out again so I can cut some of this fat off, and jumped on a diet.  Just calculated, and it currently puts me at a daily intake of:

Calories: 1229 Carbs: 160g Protein: 115g Fat: 16g

That's spread over 4 meals.  I'm about 6'1, 205 lbs.

Anything I should adjust on that?  Is it OK to add more calories if I can increase the protein amount (I know your suppose to try to balance carbs and protein...).  Should I be upping the protein a lot more?  I hear everything from .5 to 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight.  Not sure which number is actually the most accurate.

This one does leave me pretty damn hungry by the time I go to bed, as most of that is eaten earlier in the day, with a final protein/banana shack taken around 7 PM.  Not sure if I'm undercutting myself to much.  I try to drink a shit ton of water throughout the day.

1229 calories per day seems fairly light for an adult male. How much exercise are you doing each week?

Way too low on the calories and fat.  You will not be able to sustain this for very long and if you are training, especially with something very intense like P90X, you will crash and burn.

My advice to you is simply to eat; never go hungry.  Just cut out all the crap in your diet and eat real food.  Drop all the processed food you are currently eating, stop eating out for the most part, and don't drink any of your calories.  Go easy on fruits/nuts/dairy while you are trying to lose.

I'd suggest allowing one meal(not day) where you cheat and eat anything you want while you are adjusting to this lifestyle.  This will help keep you sane and on track, but as time goes by, you will find that you will need this cheat less and less and it will become something that is more dictated by socializing with others than a need to feed your desire for junk food.

Once you get pretty lean - 10% bf or so, then you are probably going to have to play around with monitoring your caloric intake (hint: use a food scale if you take this route) to get lower, but until then the method I described should serve you well.  

Don't rely solely on a scale to track your progress because it can be deceiving.  Take pictures and measurements once a week, they are fun to look back on and will give you a better idea of how you are coming along.

tldr - eat real food; eat if hungry

About 3 full body workouts a week (also trying to get cardio days in between, but every day I don't go to the gym seems to be days where I have a ton of shit to do after work).  Just started on it, and see to be doing ok, but it could catch up with me I guess.  I'm not doing anything like P90X, though I want to start it in the future (idea right now is to condition myself so I'm in decent enough shape to actually start it). 

When I calculated all the nutrition together, it did seem pretty low.  Not sure what the target should be.  Then again, I'd kind of like to burn this shit off quickly.   :awesome_for_real:

Arnold:

I kind of need to maintain a strict diet on myself daily, and allow a day where I don't watch it.  Once I break diet during a day, it sort of crush's my mental fortitude to stay on it.  Yeah, I know, key to long term health is to make it a habit to eat well all the time.  But in the mean time, I kind of have to keep myself very focused in order to maintain this.  I've already done most of what you mentioned, though again, it helps me personally when I stick with an exact order of food I eat during a day.

With the way I have the food spaced out, I actually eat just about every time I start to feel hungry again.  The only time I really feel hungry at all is around the time I'm going to bed.  Through out the day, I'm fine.

Arnold is correct.  The calories and fat are far too low.  We're almost exactly the same size.  I'm 6' and 200 lbs.  My maintenance diet is near 2000 - 2200 calories, but I workout more than you.  When I cut, I try to go 500 cal below maintenance and around 25- 30g of fat.  I have done 1200 calorie diets, but for no longer than 2 weeks.  Going longer than that will drop your metabolism into starvation mode, which will make losing weight difficult.  Here are two ways I've found to maximize weight loss:

1) Cut phase: Cut 500 calories a day from normal maintenance (around 1500) spread over 5 - 6 meals (breakfast, snack, lunch, snack, dinner).  That amounts to a decrease of 3500 cal a week or about 1 lb of fat loss.  Augment this with 500 cal per day in exercise.  This will easily allow you to shed 2 lbs a week until you reach your goal.  A rule of thumb is to eat only high quality food and keep portion sizes to that slightly smaller than the size of your fist.  For example, lunch might be a packet of tuna on a whole wheat wrap with spinach and tomato and a yogurt.  

2) Bulk Phase.  If you're a gym rat, you can hit the weights hard for 6 weeks while eating like a crazy man.  Get your caloric intake around 3000 to 4000 cal with at least 150g lean protein per day (I prefer whey and skim milk).  Try your best to keep fat < 50g.  With a solid lifting regiment, you can pack on 4-5 pounds of muscle in those 6 weeks which will help you drop fat even faster in a cut phase (see step 1) for 6 weeks.

Hope that helps.  

Yeah, that does help, thanks.  I'm never sure what the right amount of fat to let in is, since I know you need it, but you also want to keep it low (any fat that isn't trans/saturated is "good fat", correct?).

Two questions though.  When you say you drop 500 calories a day, you just mean that you drop to 1500-1700 calories each day during this period, right?

Also, is there any method or tool to figure out how many calories an exercise burns?  I know you can roughly calculate it with jogging/heart beat, but what if your doing lifting?  Not sure how I can figure out if my workout routine is in the range of burning 500 calories or not.  I don't have a heart beat monitor..

Monounsaturated and polyunsaturated are better, yes.  I try to cook with olive oil when possible or canola in a pinch.  If it's a liquid at room temp, it's primarily monounsaturated.  Saturated fats are solids near room temp (lard, animal fat, butter, etc.)


1) Correct.  If my base is 2000 cal, then I would drop to 1500 cal. 

2) Don't worry about calculating workout calories for two reasons a) you will build muscle while working out, which will up your metabolism anyway and b) it can be discouraging and counterproductive.  I would lift or do pliometrics 3 days a week and some aerobic exercise 3-4 days a week.  That should cover you fine.  Just remember to give your body some rest to recover after working out.  A major reason many people fail with these programs is that their enthusiasm will cause overtraining leading to burn-out and/or injury. 

Guys, what do you do about food during the day? I have a pescy diet and basically have no idea what to do with food once I'm out of home. My time at home is limited, so anything I prepare would preferably be quick. I also cant refrigerate or microwave my food so I need to make stuff that's nice at room temp. Food where I study basically sucks, and it's hard buying food that's not laden with unnecessary shit at any of the shops nearby. What i end up doing is snacking on a ton of fruit during the day but it's tiring and not filling.

These workouts are burning, according to my watch monitor, 700+ calories a session.

Is that good, slacking, average, impossible to judge?

It's wrong; just ignore it.  Knowing how many calories you are supposedly burning through exercise is just going to give you an excuse to binge on something crappy because you "earned it".

Exercise burns a lot less than most think.

Lately, I check my progress by changes in my Fran time (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1rRWlN7bjo) or by doing the Operator Ugly. (http://militaryathlete.com/page.php?page_ID=43)

The guys I PT with every day are so damn competitive that the only real goal I have is to outdo them, and that's no easy task. Beyond that, I don't really set a lot of goals right now. There's sort of a standing goal of becoming faster and stronger, I guess.

Before about six or seven months ago, I was just lifting weights traditionally and taking supplements. At that time, I set a lot of goals because numbers were such a part of it all. It was super important to bench ten more pounds, or weigh five more pounds or whatever. I weighed in at about 197 lbs at my peak and benched 325 lbs. Sure, my shirts were tight and I looked like a beast, but the downside to all of that was being a slow turd.

Right now I weigh 182 lbs or so and my last two mile run time was 12:17. I haven't maxed my bench in months, but it's not 325. Either way, I feel a lot healthier now and generally prefer this version of my body to trying to be The Hulk.

A few tips. 

1) When you first feel pangs of hunger, drink water.  That can sometimes delay the hunger a bit.

2) For snacks: carrots, whole almonds and dried fruit.  GORP (Granola, Oats, Raisins, Peanuts) is also great snack in moderation and cheap to make if you buy the ingredients in bulk.  You can also try rice cakes if you can handle the texture.  The flavored ones have gotten better.  Other than that, go for bulk as filler.  Celery, radishes, and cucumbers can be a great snack with cherry tomatos.   

3) I'm a big fan of foil pouch tuna.  One pouch on a whole wheat tortilla with something green does the trick well.  I often just eat the tuna out of the pouch with salt and pepper.  It takes the edge off. 

4) Protein shakes can be tolerable when made with water, but you need to experiment until you find a brand of power that you can stomach.  When using water, I always stick with chocolate.  The more exotic flavors seem meant to be mixed with milk. 

5) Gum is your friend.  It helps me avoid food cravings as well. 

6) Bring a bottle of fruit flavored chewable vitamin C to work.  When you feel a sweet tooth, just chew one.  They're sweet/tart and your body can tolerate gram quantities with ease. 

Hope that helps.

12:17 is a great two mile time.  At my weight, I have a hard time running faster than 7 min miles.  I guess that's the trade... if I slim down to 165, I can run 5:30's all day but I look like a walking scarecrow.  It sounds like you've found the sweet spot between strength and endurance.  Well done. 

As for the 325 bench, that's impressive at your weight.  I have no idea what my current max is (I never have a spotter), but know it's nowhere near that.  I'll blame my age!!!

I like apples and bananas, but I can keep a few to eat through the day at work. Obviously dried is more portable. For almonds, you've really got to watch portion. I LOVE almonds, and it's very easy to consume a lot of calories because they're packed with them. I get into the habit of tossing back and occasional handful, but then the can is empty before I know it. I stopped buying them for a while, but I keep going back because they're so tasty and good.

Right now I'm into a variety made by Emerald, they bake in cocoa powder. Less sodium and they have a strong cocoa flavor without a chocolate coating, nutritionally about the same as regular almonds. I still prefer the non-salted foil bag kind, but this is a nice change (and the girls at the office go nuts for them (sorry)).

Good points Sky.  I usually put 1/4 cup of each in a bag.  If I don't limit myself, I can eat a pound of almonds effortlessly.  Dried fruit is similar, particularly cranberries, apples, and bananas. 

I'm only 5'11" or so on a good day, so at 180-185 lbs I think I'm just slightly above scarecrow status. And I'm not anywhere near benching 325 right now - I just wanted to show the range of results you can get based on different routines and diets.

Not for out and about, but at home I keep seedless grapes in the freezer. They're my favorite replacement for chips or popcorn as mindless grazing food while I read. The grapes are good for you and you can't eat them very fast when they're frozen. I've been wanting to try freezing bananas, too, but I eat them too quickly :)

For me, apples for breakfast (they are good filler and sooooo yummy) along with a protein shake.  I like my shakes with fat free milk, because it tastes loads better, plus you get even more protein AND the other inherent befits of milk.  More calories, though.  I'm a late evening snacker (with a severe pretzel addiction), but when I'm being good I've found that cherries are great.  So are grapes.  Pistachios on occasion, too, but you don't want to go overboard on those.

Somebody said they try to minimize the fruit, but I don't quite get that logic...as far as I'm concerned, it's the very definition of high quality food that tastes good, fills you up, has real nutritional value and is generally very low in calories.  It's hard imagine that it would even be possible to eat too much fruit, unless you're a diabetic or something.


Edit:  spelling

How long do the grapes last in the freezer?  It's something I've never thought to try, but I'd thought they'd get freezer burned pretty fast.  I'm wrong a lot though.

Bananas don't freeze well.  The only thing bananas are good for after they come out of a freezer are smoothies and banana bread.

Age means nothing!  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rncGa8wC4X4)  :grin:



That would be an impressive bench, although I'm not really keen on bench as a measure of raw strength. I know plenty of guys who can bench well over 100kg, but can't squat or deadlift anything. For pure strength purposes I think the combined bench+squat+deadlift is a better measure. One of my ideas at the moment while I search for a new direction with the gym is to train towards a 400kg combined lift, and see how far I can push that, but generally I find that max power comes at the expense of speed and endurance, so for that sake I'd rather go more into crossfit. Decisions are tough...

For the record I'm 6'1" and weigh around 202 lbs.

Does anyone have any opinion on yoghurt as a post-training snack? I'm usually having a large (450g) pot after most sessions and that +juice/squash usually does me well enough for recovery.

Many people will tell you to eat something high in protein post workout.  This is biochemically wrong.  The best thing to eat post workout is something high in glucose as you deplete these stores during the workout and the glucose will keep you from cannibalizing muscle for energy.  Energy bars are a good choice as are some energy drinks.  If you prefer natural, raisins, honey, dates, etc. work.  The key is to not overdo it. 

I love dried fruit...wish the good stuff wasn't so pricey. I think I need to learn how to snack "properly," as that sort of stuff will just turn into a meal if I have enough available.

Also...the Pylo and arms/back routines tore me up so bad I couldn't do the 90 (!!) minute Yoga routine.  :|

I'm hoping the soreness, especially in the legs, dies down tomorrow (2 days after the actual routine). Also...it's really not helpful that I'm not flexible at the wait; I've never, in my life, been able to touch my toes or the ground with locked knees. The best I can do is bend 90 degrees at the waist, which is not great.

Are you sure that's correct?  Your body starts breaking down muscle for glucogenesis just because your muscle glycogen stores aren't 100% full?

Bodybuilders typically consume something like a 50/50 mixture of protein and glucose.  IIRC there were studies showing superior protein absorption when consumed in combination with glucose as opposed to protein alone.

I thought it was something along the lines of glucose within 10-15 minutes of a workout and protein ~2 hrs after a workout for maximum effect.

From what I understand, your body benefits most from protein towards the end of the 30 minute window after you stop working out.

Furthermore, there's all the different sorts of protein supplements. Immediately after a workout, you should take in something that digests with a quickness, i.e. whey.

The stuff that digests more slowly (Muscle Milk is good example) is better to take before you rest/sleep so that it's absorbed over a longer period of time.

I'm garbage at nutrition and diet, so Nebu may want to comment here. Either way, this is what I've gone by and it's worked out alright.

Thanks for all the tips Nebu.

Are protein supplements only suggested if you want to build bulk? I'm trying to lose weight and tone, I think I'd look fine as long as I got leaner, and my main goals are to get fitter, slimmer, meaner and jump higher.

I'm one of those folks that thinks people overdo it with the supplements.  Eating responsibly and working out 4-5 days a week has worked out very well for me.  I lost 45 pounds 3 years ago and I've kept it off (which has been the hardest part).

I'm sure that's correct for me.  I drink protein shakes throughout the day (primarily because I'm a vegetarian) to maintain a consistent amount of available protein and often fast for an hour or so prior to my workout.  For most people glycogen stores will last for 24 hr at normal operating metabolism.  When I lift, I can often burn through a significant portion of my stores so I'm always sure to eat a high glucose (not just carb, but glucose to immediately raise blood sugar) snack after working out.  I'll then have a whey shake about 30-60 mins later.  My body fat is typically in the 6-8% range, so I don't have a lot of excess available for catabolism.  If my glucose levels run low, my body will immediately begin to scavenge muscle, particularly that which was already partially broken down during my lifting.  

As for the second part, your body will burn glucose first, then begin to eat into your glycogen stores.  Since the brain, RBC, and a few other cell types only burn glucose and beta keto acids for fuel, you'll begin to burn any remaining fat and muscle for fuel once the glucose is gone.  This is one reason why I don't particularly care for ketogenic diets.  Using fat for energy is fine to speed weight loss, but will result in a decrease in blood pH which can really affect many systems.  


Protein shakes are a lean form of protein to supplement the diet when you can't get enough through normal intake.  If you want to jump higher, you're going to be building quad and gastroc muscle.  Having the extra protein available for building while on a low calorie diet will limit the amount of muscle that gets broken down during normal weight loss.  Most of us will breakdown 20-30% muscle mass while in the process of also losing fat.  Keeping your protein levels high will minimize the muscle loss while getting rid of unwanted fat.  

Hope that helps.

I stopped taking protein shakes because they were doing horrible things to my gut, and frankly I haven't noticed a significant impact on my training capacity. I have increased the amount of fish, eggs and milk that I eat to compensate though. The only thing I do feel is that without the added creatine I cannot train for quite as long, so I may go back to that. But frankly I don't have the time to train for more than 2 hours 3-4 nights a week, and if I can do that without creatine I may as well just live without it.

So I did some math and figured out that I could (and probably should) lose half of my bodymass (sadly I am only slightly exaggerating). I knew I had "a few pounds to much" on me, but when my new balance (is that really the American term for the thing that measures your weight) just gave me an "error" message when calculation my body fat, I figured that it would be a really good idea to start with limiting my calorie intake to a more healthy level.

I am a little bit shy of 6 feet tall and plan to eat no more than 2000 calories a day. If I am not totally wrong this should bring me down to a more healthy weight level in a few months(/years). I can't really work with your fucked up measurement system, but I think I should lose at least 30kg and could probably lose up to 65kg without looking starved.

Light, low impact cardio and workout in the gym is a given, in fact I will start as soon as they will take my money.

Why do I post this ? No idea, maybe just because I want to have something to look back to in a few months to remind me why I started this.  :awesome_for_real:

Gotta start somewhere Helm.   It really is worth it  - just take a picture and some measurements.  In a few months, after you've dropped a few kg and cm, take a look in the mirror and then at the pic - chances are, you'll be shocked.

Got a panorama lens ?  :ye_gods:

The first day I hit the elliptical, I had to stop after 10 minutes.  In hindsight, I'd say the first 2 months were the worst.  Don't give up.

My swim coach called the first 2 weeks after some time off "The Wall."  You'll hit it hard and want to stop, but you push through and you'll go over and forget about it.  You can do it, Helm.

Talking about it actually helps, so if I were you I'd make sure you keep this post alive.  There are also a lot of knowledgeable people around here than can help you with advice, on both diet and exercise.

Anyway, good luck to you.

I think it's great that you posted this.  The idea is to start on the path toward a healthier version of yourself.  I think the energy boost that you'll feel will make the effort worthwhile almost immediately. 

Tips:

1) Don't allow early enthusiasm to cause you to overdo it and burnout.  Take it slowly and allow yourself adequate recovery. 

2) Make working out a part of your daily routine.  When it becomes an important part of your day, you don't notice the time devoted to it as being "lost".  It's just like brushing your teeth or taking a shower.

3) Keep a journal/log of your progress with pictures (if you can).  It's very motivational. 

Best of luck! 

Heck, I daresay that you can become so addicted to working out that it can go to the other extreme...having to skip a day can actually be a disappointment.  It usually is for me.

I have nothing relevant to add to this but I have to say something...

I've seen the video of the chick that is your avatar, but I'll be damned if I can remember what/where.  Edumacate me please?

I go back and forth on this.  On my old training schedule (heavy cardio and circuit training), the day off felt like cheating.   On my current schedule (Hal Higdon's Half Marathon for novices), the day off comes like a day of sweet sweet wonderful bliss.

Can't help you.  I stole it form a .gif thread on 4chan or Corp years ago.

Presumably, you speak of Alex Gaudino's "Destination Calabria" (featuring Christal Waters (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APtj3EvhfWA) and seven of her friends).

Question on running, I've found that I can now actually run long and fast enough to start feeling some actual work in my legs and can control the pace well enough to not have to stop just so I can breath again but I've found that I get a really uncomfortable feeling in my stomach after a while. Not a cramp or pain but that feeling you get with an unhappy stomach that is not infrequently followed by a desperate rush to the loo, best description I've heard for it was a hot stomach (which is apparently what it's known as in Vietnam). If I stop and catch my breath it'll go away but I'm not keen on trying to run through that for fear of something going horribly wrong. I'm guessing it'll go away as general fitness improves but anyone know what might be the cause/ways to work on getting rid of it? Couldn't seem to find anything through google since I'm not really sure what to search for.

Having to make a bowel movement immediately before, during or just after running is pretty common, I think.  I know that when I did cross country running when I was younger people constantly would 'nip off the path' for a quick shit.

Just make a point to go before you run, eventually your body figures it out and it's no longer an issue.

Pretty much - it's usually referred to as Runner's trots.

Or the Trotter's runs.

 :ye_gods: Maybe I'll stop running. I've been making sure I don't need to go before I run, seems like sometimes that isn't enough. I'll probably just slow it down rather than nip off into someone's front garden though.

On my run days, being properly hydrated seems to help a lot with it, as does not being an idiot and running when it's 100 degrees outside (I'll either run super early or late or just the gym).

Anyone know where I can get a (free) version of the nutrition plan for P90x?  Thinking about doing it.

Just because it was bumped...

I finally got around to completing the Yoga routine recently (not damn time lately)...wow.

About 45 minutes in or so, for the first time in my life, I legitimately touched my toes. You know, knees locked and all.

I was waaaay too proud of myself. Even as a kid, playing HOURS of hockey every day, I could never do that. I was amazed.

Just a shame I don't have the time to do this more consistently, though I should have more time once I switch positions in January.

Still struggling to improve my eating habbits. As someone else mentioned, reducing your calorie intake makes everything much more tasty than before. On a side note, I found out that I, like many people with overweight I figure, actually seem to be more or less addicted to eating. Right now I am trying to figure out if it is a psychological or a physical dependence. I hope it is physical.  :awesome_for_real:

In my case, I think it's 50/50 habit.  What has worked best for me is to have water always with me and I eat large salads every day at lunch (skipping the iceberg lettuce). 

The bold part is great advice.  In obese/overweight individuals, it's often common for them to confuse the hunger and thirst responses.  One way to help is to drink water before each meal and to drink water when hunger pangs come on.  I also like to exercise if a glass of water doesn't help the hunger subside. 

On a separate note: you may also be suffering the effects of low blood sugar between meals.  One way to help is to have 4-6 small meals during the day.  It will curb the cravings as well.

So nobody has a copy of the nutrition plan for this program?

I don't get hungry. I just noticed that I sometimes REALLY want to eat something. Hard to explain really.  :grin:

I understand that.  It's often a dip in blood sugar that is the cause.  That's why I added the bit about eating many small meals.

I do. It's your standard high protein / low carb diet  which starts with moderate fat and shifts into lower fat as you get more into it. It's tracked by a chart with 'serving' boxes that you check off each day.

Since you're asking for copyright material to be posted on a private web board instead of searching torrents, Google and Usenet for it yourself.. just accept that you're too lazy to stick to the food plan and find something else to do.

I think this might apply to me as well, but...how do you have time for that? 4-6 meals sounds like a lot of running out to get food or cooking or something.

I've been working on losing weight for the past month or so, with pretty good success if my crappy scale is to be believed (recently invested in a better one since I've historically done better with constant accurate feedback).  A large part of it has been recognizing my own bad eating habits and avoiding them through conscious effort.  One of the real killers, I think, was the habit of trying to "fill up" at dinner, i.e. eat to the point of feeling "stuffed" rather than just sated.  I decided that it came from some irrational childhood fear of waking up hungry, and once I realized that and saw how silly it was (if it ever did happen I could just get up and eat a snack, dammit, I'm a grown-up now), I started to get comfortable with having small dinners.  I think it's been helping me sleep better, too.

I know exactly what you mean with just wanting to eat, though.  Water helps satisfy the vague urge to wander into the kitchen and come back to my desk with something to consume, but when there's delicious food actually sitting around it requires an act of will to pass it up.  I suspect that never gets easier.  :cry:

A "Meal" doesn't necessitate cooking.. It's just a designated time to eat.  It can be a few pieces of fruit, some GORP or just saving half of your lunch to eat 2-3 hours later at your desk.  Just make sure you manage your total calories instead of adding 2-3 additional meals that are as calorie-dense as the 2-3 you're already eating.  And DO NOT snack between these meals (which is my downfall of late. Damn droughts in the break room where my water bottles are.)

You assume laziness when simple incompetence would have sufficed as an explanation.  As far as it being copyrighted data, it simply didn't occur to me...so apologies for offending your sensibilities  :grin:

At any rate, while I have often monitored my calories and am very aware of what I am eating, I have never followed a strict plan like this, so I wanted to see what I might be getting into.

And a related question that just crossed my mind, my mother insists that diet coke makes you hungry, because it tastes sweet, but does not contain sugar, thereby causing a drip in blood sugar. I disagree, but maybe my body is fooling me again ?

It's something called "aspartame disease" and some information about it can be found HERE (http://www.medicinenet.com/artificial_sweeteners/page8.htm)

I'm not sure what I think about it, but know that many artificial sweeteners can signal release of insulin that causes hunger.  The hunger comes from an expectation that more calories will follow. 

Drinking water instead of diet soda is always the smart choice, but diet soda is still >>> regular soda.  Baby steps and all that.

Your sound advice is always welcome. Thank you.  :awesome_for_real:

Don't think it warrants its own thread but figured I'd post something up about this

Basically, I wanted to make sure I didn't turn back into a couch potato during the winter, so I signed up to run a race in the middle of December.

http://celticsolstice.com/Intro.html

It's a 5 mile loop through Druid Hill Park in Baltimore.   Ran it yesterday and I'm pretty happy with my overall time (averaged a 9:47 minute/mile, which I know is slow compared to some of you bastards, but since I couldn't even run a mile let alone 5 this time last year, I'll take it). 

Got to the race around 7 am and didn't even think about a bag check, so I ended up standing around in my run gear in about 25F degrees for about an hour and a half.   Not great planning on my part, but live and learn.

The pre and post race support was probably the best I've seen - plenty of water, coffee, and hot cocoa for people pre-race and then soup, hot wassail and cookies post-race.    And I'm not sure hot spice wine can possibly taste any better than after you've just put your body through the fun of standing around and then running 5 miles in sub-freezing temps. 

Of course, since I had all that coffee and a billion runs to the porta-john while standing around, I got super dehydrated after the race, got home, and spent a good half day alternating between serious cramps and runs to the bathroom.   I AM SMRT.

Recovery today seems to be fairly minimal - a little soreness in my calves and quads and randomly enough my shoulder blades (I keep super tight while running)

One update deserves another. I lost 35lbs (was ~5'11" 185lbs+ none of it muscle) due to cleaning up my diet several months ago as hammered on in this thread.

Apparently I stored all my fat in my face and torso.  I don't own a scale so I didn't notice my gradual weight gain as I actually thought my shirts were somehow shrinking.  I got on a scale just to figure out my starting weight and didn't weigh myself again until I got comments that I look like a shadow of my former self and asking whether I was sick.  :oh_i_see:

Weight loss wasn't my primary goal; I just wanted to stop eating like an idiot and get fit in the process.  My diet used to be:  Breakfast - huge Jamba Juice banana/chocolate drink, nursed all day /// Lunch - McDonaldish food (e.g., nuggets, fries, coke and sundae) /// Dinner - bigger McDonaldish food (e.g., burrito, chips, fries, coke/milkshake, and ice cream) /// plenty of processed snacks

My new diet is:  Breakfast - eggs/oatmeal and fruit ///  Lunch - salad and animal protein ///  Dinner - grain/potato carbs, veggies and animal protein /// fewer and healthier snacks

All the while I did ~45min cardio 3 days a week.  I tried twice to start lifting weights but both times left me unable to straighten my arms for a week or two. It also doesn't help that I have a natural aversion to lifting since it's hard but putting on some muscle is my next goal so to stick with it I'll be reducing weights to further embarrassing levels.

I still eat out and have cookies, pizza, etc., but my portions are smaller, I pay attention to labels and my fast food binging is over. I can't remember the last time I had a coke and that's saying something since I used to take baths in the stuff.

/LiveJournal

Nice one, man.  Don't be too worried or embarrased about the weight lifting stuff.  Find an intelligent lifting program (e.g. some kind of 5x5 for beginners), up your calorie and protein intake, and you'll make shockingly fast progress. 

Go on you too, JWIV.  Running fucking sucks, though...you can have it. :grin:

I just want to say on the lifting, something like 5x5 or a Starting Strength programme is a great place to start. A sensible beginner lifting programme shouldn't leave your arms aching and lifting without a programme results in overworking a few muscle groups (based on the stupid stuff I've done and read about). Grats on doing stuff though, I've not gone running for almost a month now after spraining something in my left foot (that's finally pretty much healed) and lifting has been keeping me sane and not suddenly going back to what I was six months ago.

Sorry for bumping a rather old thread.

I'm just wondering if anyone has any experience or advice about ketogenic diets?

I did Atkins a few years back when I hit 300lbs @6'2". Worked like a charm, lost a steady 2lbs a dayafter the first week until I hit about 220lbs and just sort of hoovreed around there. This was all with no exercise at all and working a sedentary IT job. I felt great and it improved every aspect of my life. I stayed on it with 1-3 incidents of cheating (caramel machiato, piece of cheesecake, etc) and kept the weight off easily. What made me finally go off the rails was working an overnight cutover from one mainframe to another with a promise of a party tray from upper management. At 3 am and everyone starving, the secretary showed up with a bunch of pop and boxes of twinkies, hoho's, etc. I made the mistake of eating the shit until I was full and afterwards it was like I chugged a bottle of tequilla. After that it was like I was an addict and my body just craved carbs too much to reist. Contrary to what people said the weight was very slow to come back on after resuming a "normal" american diet. I'm about to start up the Atkins thing again myself.

I've seen people in the SA forums have good success with ketogenic. Then I've also seen people have good success with plain ol' low carb, Intermittent fasting and a whole slew of other diets. Ketogenic is (from what I've read) best if you're coming at this from being pretty overweight, largely on the assumption that your body's insulin responses are probably somewhat fucked by huge quantities of carbohydrates and blood sugar spikes. Aside from insulin sensitivity issues and whether or not it helps control that really the advantage of these diets is you shouldn't need to count calories as you're eating stuff that will fill you up and leave you feeling full. Of course that's all predicated on your body not wanting to eat too much and having a reasonable amount of willpower, it's entirely possible to eat yourself into ketosis and not lose weight. It's just not as easy as stuffing yourself with calorie dense carby stuff.

Have some crazy internet geeks talk about dieting (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3407406) That thread will have a ton more resources than I could ever be bothered to find and pass on but be aware that everyone there thinks low carb diets are The One True Diet and like anything where you aim to lose weight calories in v. calories out is going to be the deciding factor. Everything else is about what makes it easiest for you to get the balance on that you want.

I've known a few people to do Atkins - and had great success with it while on it.  The problem is, once they got off of it, they had never learned to maintain their weight with a healthy diet and instead went back to their old bad habits and ballooned back up.   So it works in the short term, but I'm not a big fan of it because of the long term failure.   

In general, I'm a big proponent of just general calorie counting, introducing exercise into your life, and gradually losing weight in such a way that helps enforce a lifestyle change.    Eat more greens and lean proteins, better carbs (real bread instead of processed white, brown rice over white, etc), less prepackaged foods.   

If you eliminate processed food, eat whole grains, lots of fruits & veg, and choose lean proteins, you almost don't even need to count calories.  Funny thing, after you've eaten healthy food for a month or two, you'll lose your taste for processed crap.  It really is just getting back to basics. 

This, 1000%. I'm really not a believer in 'diets', though they can work in the short term for people. If you learn some basic nutrition, how to balance meals and sourcing, it's really all you need as far as intake goes. Then you need to adjust portions to fit lifestyle (calories out) and genetics.

I don't count calories at all, and follow exactly what Nebu outlined. I had a personal rule that Weight Watchers has recently adopted in their new strategy: fruit and veg don't count. I load my plate with the veg course every night and use that to fill up on. Snack on fruit all throughout the day.

There's a big difference between a "diet" and having a healthy diet.  Dieting never works because people aren't making a life change.  They just want a quick fix to "get skinny" and then go back to living the way they did before the diet.

One of the best things that happened to me was finding out I'm celiac.  I don't have a choice, I can't eat most processed crap.  Generally if you stay on the outside rim of the grocery store you'll be fine-  fruits, vegetables and meats.  Another thing that people underestimate as far as impact on weight is the effect of sodas (diet and regular).  Cutting back to just water can really cut out a lot of calories. 

I don't know why anyone would drink diet soda in the first place.  Stuff always tastes like ass.

Thanks for the feedback. I'm not really overweight, I'm more looking to cut a few % of body fat since I have hit most of my current goals with lifting.

My main thought was how easy it is to roll in and out of keto, it seems like it can kick in very quick, and I'm not looking to drop that much weight, so I would probably only do it for a month or so. I wasn't sure how realistic/healthy/productive this would be though.

What Nebu said is a good way to cutting down on body fat, and healthier as well.

BURN THE HERETIC

I've been having to fight my wife so very, very, very hard on the processed food thing.  Sure, I'm guilty of it on a few fronts but damn, if we'd followed the eating habits she grew up with we'd be eating Rice-A-Roni, Chef Boyardee, Hamburger Helper ect every meal.

It's been a 14 year struggle and we're now down to just pastas and some meal fillers. (Oh, and Mac N Cheese. Making that from scratch every time we have a hankering takes too long.)  I won on getting whole grain pasta (finally) you just have to cook it a little longer than white flour pasta.

It's kind of amazing what the eating habits are of people our age, Merusk.  I know people that eat out for every single meal.  That is insane. 

The thing is, I don't eat much processed food, although perhaps that depends on what your definition of processed is. I could improve my diet in various ways; but none of them seem like they would offer dramatic changes in my body fat percentage.

We ate a box of regular pasta a short while ago, after a year of the whole grain wheat stuff. Turns out we both prefer the whole grain stuff for both flavor and texture, it's amazing how fast your palate can change.

I know a few of those as well.  Well, single guys mainly.  I can't imagine doing that married w/ Kids. Ye gods, the cost alone would be insane.   We ate out Friday night after a miscommunication about when the Son's Cub Scout potluck was and that cost us $70 w/ tip.  That's what I normally spend per week on grocery staples (i.e. not when I have to restock chicken & beef)

My roommate eats Subway for lunch everyday and orders Domino's pizza every other night. I think he's going to die.

Since it's apropos to the conversation - I just found out that my dad was apparently just classified pre-diabetic and that diabetes runs on his mother's side of the family.   Wonder when they were planning on telling me either of these things, since you know, it's not like diabetes is one of those things that family medical history might be a factor in.  :facepalm:

Sounds like college.

I think I discovered Udi's too soon or something. (That and the gluten free bakery down the road from me).

Yeah, there's an awesome gluten free place in San Antonio as well.  I lost about 20 pounds by cutting out gluten though, so I can't bitch too much. 

I changed my diet earlier this year - mostly to lose a load of weight I'd piled on over winter. Normally, I just do sensible eating (calorie counting to a certain extent) and exercise but it wasn't really doing it this time. I ended up reading about a slow-carb diet as popularised by Tim Ferriss in his Four-Hour Body book.

Essentially it's a low-GI diet but cuts out any white carbs or carbs that can be white - so no potatoes, no rice (wholemeal, brown or otherwise), no pasta (same), no bread (same), keep to lean meats and avoid dairy and fruit. Do this 6 days a week and go mental on the 7th day with whatever you like. Because you can eat as much veg, pulses and beans as you like, it's not ketogenic but, the theory goes, switching to slow energy release carbs is pretty much the same. Also, loads of veg = healthy. The downside is that you are best taking calcium tablets as the diet does lack in that.

This all got reinforced for me a little more when I read totally unrelated nutrition research in relation to ultramarathon training and how to condition your body to use fat resources as energy more efficiently rather than carbs when exercising under the anaerobic threshold.

It worked for me - I shed the weight and felt great. Diet's gone a little haywire over the last couple of weeks (mostly owing to moving house) but my training has amped up for a race in a couple of months so that's kept it off. Trying to switch back to it now to get sorted for end of July.

YMMV - and everybody on the internet is an expert.

I would assume that after a few weeks of eating almost nothing but fat that the act of taking a shit would be enough to drive one to suicide.

You can eat a lot of stuff that's high in fiber since it's indigestible. Even during the two week induction phase there are vegetables you can eat. Celery and Broccolli if I remember correctly. Anyway if you mix what you're eatng and include the veggies taking a dump is per normal. Now the peple who just eat a pound of colby cheese, eggs, and red meat on the otherhand I don't even want to think about.

I've always done a combination of low fat, low calorie diet, then increased my cardio, but maintained other components of the exercise triad (cardio, strength, flexibility).  Increasing fiber helps curb my appetite, along with small frequent meals, which is great if I'm not working, damn 12 hour shifts at night screw up my diet big time ( I know, I know, better planning on my part would make that easier, but working 4 nights a week every other week takes it toll).

Wonderful weather here in Indiana right now!  Hot and humid, so walking/jogging or bicycling is awesome work outs, just have to stay hydrated  8-)

Intermittent Fasting seems to be pretty popular with people looking to control their calorie intake with schedules that make lots of small meals impractical, the basic idea being that you have an 8 or 4 hour window a day in which you take on board all your calories in one or two big meals. There's more to it in terms of the sort of foods you should be taking and when you break your fast, etc. but apparently after a week or two your body gets pretty comfortable with not eating for 16 hours and it makes paying attention to your calories much simpler since you just don't snack at all. There's no danger of losing track of what you've been munching on. Not sure how many of the people that have success with this are doing intense stuff during the fasting period though and even if it does work well it would probably result in a week or so of shifts from hell.

Wouldn't that encourage fat storage?

I snack all day long, my doc wanted me to take some tetracycline and technically it wants a 3-hour window where I don't eat. I realized I don't have one! Lots of small, low cal snacks all day long (I have to avoid almonds, they're packed with cals and I mang on them) with a few reasonable meals, body never feels the need to build up fat stores. Trying to get over my one bad habit - late night snacks where I input a hundred calories that has no place to burn off.

Yes. 

Intermittent fasting is a terrible idea.  It produces uneven blood sugar levels that mess with normal metabolism.  Done frequently enough, it will cause the metabolic system to shift, reducing basal metabolic rate.  It is far superior to eat 5-6 small meals per day.  Even just three meals is superior.

Two keys that will be the greatest help are a) eat when you get up in the morning to start your furnace burning and b) avoid eating within an hour of bedtime. 

This is, if I recall, because it binds with iron, making it less or completely ineffective. You can work around that by eating it with foods with low iron :)

Just like that dude that ate a Twinkie 6 times a day to get his 1500 calories and lost something ridiculous like 100 pounds.

I'm surprised a Twinkie diet isn't sweeping the nation right now.

By looking at most Americans, I think maybe it actually is sweeping the nation.

I started the 17 day diet last week and am down nine lbs.

It's interesting to look at how much unhealthy food I like.

Depends on what you eat and how long you fast. If you eat carbs its going to be terrible. Your body will store fat and eat muscle.

If you eat proteins and fats you're probably OK. Since your body can take a longer time to metabolize them.

The longer you fast and the more protein/fat in your diet the better it is for you in terms of weight.

If you're going to fast though its much better to do a weekly fast. You need to fast long enough for your body to kick start into "time to burn excess energy mode". [It is also good for people who have food allergies that they cannot avoid]

I take issue with nearly every one of your points, but don't want to Bruce your post. 

I will never encourage people to eat high protein & fat diets.  a) Too many tissues require glucose as a primary fuel source and b) protein takes a lot of water to metabolize and most people don't drink nearly enough water.  The key is to maintain a healthy caloric intake, get adequate exercise, and eat a diet rich in fiber and complex cabs (to minimize insulin spikes).  Fasting is a terrible solution unless your doing it to clean your colon.  Drastic cuts in daily caloric intake will drop your BMR through the floor in a matter of days and initiate muscle scavenging which is also counterproductive. 

Your body is less likely to initiate a "burn excess energy mode" and more likely to initiate an "Oh shit, we have no food so slow the engine to make what we have last as long as possible".  Also ketoacidosis isn't a good thing.   

I should have clarified. I meant "once a week" fast not "fast for a whole week".

Your body does not need enough glucose as a primary source to justify not eating a diet high in protein and fat. Though this depends on your definition of "high". Yes, exclusion can be problematic. Yes a diet high in fiber is good. This does not mean that a regimented fast does not necessitate weight gain.

You don't need a lot of protein.  1g of lean protein per kg is more than enough unless you're an athlete or a body builder.  Fats are also subject to scrutiny.  The type is every bit as important as the quantity. 

I know you know this, just saying more for reference. 

I'm very interested in nutritional biochemistry and micronutrient delivery and triage.  I'd be happy to discuss any topics on this or another thread. 

Did my first 10K race over the weekend - Dreaded Druid Hills 10K.   I spent about a month of a half trying to add hills to as much of my practice runs as possible, and good lord,  I was still staring in horror at some of what I came across.   I mean there's hills, and then there's 1710 feet of ascent as you run up a hill, turn a corner thinking you're about to hit the flats, and realize no, it's MORE HILL.   :ye_gods: 

I'll probably run it again next year.  Having never run one before, I was pretty happy with my time of 59:47, and hopefully as I continue to up my distance I can bring that down by quite a bit next year.

That's a pretty respectable time for that distance with that ascent - especially if it's your first race (taking into account I know little about you, your build or your running history). Was it trail or road?

It's a road race - most of the run involves the service roads behind the Baltimore Zoo, so it's all under the shade at least and is actually a really pretty run. 

Rather than necessarily up the mileage, can I suggest that you have a look at these training programs: http://www2.furman.edu/SITES/FIRST/Pages/FirstTrainingPrograms.aspx (http://www2.furman.edu/SITES/FIRST/Pages/FirstTrainingPrograms.aspx) - they're geared around three dedicated training sessions a week (with additional cross training as you see fit) and I've been using it in the run up to a mountain race in a few weeks time. After a few years of my pace stagnating, I've started running 8 miles in training at the same pace I was doing in a race 7 years ago - and I'm running less mileage a week too.

My hill training sucks sweaty balls though. I hate hills. Been doing squats, step ups and using the step machine in the gym in preparation but it's probably not enough.

My goal is to try and do a half in October, so yah, training schedules are good things.   The 3 days a week aspect of this one is pretty damn appealing. 

So the wife and I started regular P90 about a month ago.  I've lost 10 pounds (205 from 215) and I'm pretty sure that I have a six pack underneath my belly flab now.  It's a good little workout for those not super athletic.  It does get repetitive though.  You can finish up the workout in about 40 minutes.   I would definitely recommend. 

Another update-  now at 203, which isn't much of a loss from the 205 from a few weeks ago.  However I've been able to cinch up my belt by a loop and my pants are now super baggy.   :awesome_for_real:

We should just rename this the fitness thread.

The part that sucks most about getting in shape after 20 years is the in-between stage.  You can feel the muscles forming, and you know it's beginning to kick in. However, the fat is starting to droop but isn't burning off quite fast enough so it just makes you feel unattractive and unsuccessful at your routine.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what's going on, but I can *see* abs under there that I couldn't 6 months ago.  I'm able to do more reps on the crunch machine with a much higher weight than when I started (and more weight on everything, actually) but the way things are starting to jiggle I feel like I've gotten fatter, not fitter.

Yeah, when you build muscle underneath the fat it makes it stand up more.  I am starting to get the six pack triangle now underneath my pudge.  I can see it there, but the fat must feel winter coming on.  It's going nowhere fast.   :why_so_serious:

1200 Cal a day with only complex carbs and only water to drink (1 gal per day).  If that doesn't get rid of 10 lbs in 4 weeks, nothing will.  Another way to make your 6 pack more defined is to start doing resistance work.

I've spent this summer doing almost exactly the opposite of what I've done my entire life... I'm trying to trim down from 205 lbs to about 185.  Being in my 40's, I find it much better to drop the bulk in favor of a leaner physique.  I'm sick of carrying the extra weight up and down mountains. 

1200 cal a day. Wow I'd be a real son of a bitch. I'm mean enough on only 2k.

My cut program:

2 weeks on 1200 Cal, light lifting
2 weeks on 1800 Cal, heavy cardio, light lifting
2 weeks on 1500 Cal, light cardio, heavy lifting
2 weeks on 1800 Cal, heavy cardio, heavy lifting

I try to not go longer than 2 weeks below 1800 cal as it can induce a metabolic slowdown (perceived starvation mode).  Of course, this is knowing my own body well.  Your mileage may vary.

1200 calories per day isn't very realistic for most people.  1750 or maybe 1500 could work.  I don't like 1200 because it is certainly not something you'd want to do long term and it is easy to have a bad rebound from. 

You need to cut 500 cal per day or burn 500 cal per day to lose 1 lb per week.  If people can't do 1200, then 1500 is just fine. 

I find that most people fail in their thinking that losing more than 2 lbs a week is a realistic goal. 

Partially that's because everyone sees those initial weeks or diet claims and thinks that's somehow sustainable as opposed to mostly being due to a drastic cutback of salt from their diet and losing their  water bloat.

Want to lose 10 lbs fast?  A laxative and a diuretic will do it.  

Most people have between 5-10 lbs of undigested/underdigested material in their small intestine/colon.  If you want a real eye opener, go on a 3 day, liquid only diet.  Drink fruit/vegetable juice with some psyllium in it for 3 days and watch what gets cleaned out of your system.  Doing this is what got me to change my diet for life.  

Lunch anyone?   :grin:

I once read that a fair bit of the undigested stuff was red meat - any insight there, Nebu?

Also, thanks for the mention of breakfast/starting the metabolism in the morning earlier in this thread.  I had gained some weight earlier this year from inactivity, but even with a healthy diet and frequent exercise it wasn't coming off.  Adding a granola bar early in the AM tipped the scales (heh) over to a slow, steady weight loss again.

Salads really are not horrid.

:why_so_serious:

I'm pretty limited on what I can eat anyway due to a gluten sensitivity.  We eat fairly healthy anyway-  lots of fruits and vegetables.  We shop on the outside of the store.  I don't count calories, but I've lost almost 20 pounds doing base level P90 for the past 50 days, and we haven't even gotten to the more advanced workout (they split it up into 1/2 and 3/4 workouts-  we're still on 1/2). 

Sounds like you're doing just fine then.

Further to Nebu's figures though, I personally think it's worth adding a commonly used Harris-Benedict equation to calculate your BMR (Basal Metabolic Rate - i.e. the amount of kCals you burn by just existing):

Women: 655 + ( 4.35 x weight in pounds ) + ( 4.7 x height in inches ) - ( 4.7 x age in years )
Men: 66 + ( 6.23 x weight in pounds ) + ( 12.7 x height in inches ) - ( 6.8 x age in year )

This figure is then multiplied by a factor that refelects your daily activity - I tend to use 1.1 or 1.2 for "mostly sedentary" seeing as how I'm a desk jockey for 40 hours a week.  That gives me, for example (someone of a similar stats and presumably build to Nebu - 6'2" and 205 pounds) a daily calorific need of ~2400kCal.

Having said all that, as I mentioned a page or two ago, I found calorie counting didn't help at the beginning of this year so I revisited my diet and changed what I was eating rather than the amount I was eating.  Again, like Nebu, I'm doing my best to avoid simple carbs and stick to a slow/carbs and a low GI diet with lots of lean, white protein meats. I'm also cutting back a lot on dairy (particularly cheese which is a big, fatty weakness for me).  This is working out fine for me as I've discovered a whole new love of cooking and experimenting with foods.

But I also have the additional aim of trying to retrain my body to more effectively burn fat stores rather than glycogen/carbs (for endurance reasons rather than six-pack reasons).

How odd.. using that calc I should be eating ~2350 calories a day (230#, 5'11) but at 2k-2.1k I'm just maintaining weight instead of losing it; even with 3 days at the gym for 1/2hour of weights 1/2 hour cardio/fat burn.

I guess the weekends are really hurting me more than I thought.. that or I'm really underestimating the calories in the dinners we're cooking at night.

As dull as it sounds, tracking what you eat for a couple of weeks can sometimes help to spot where any issues - if any - lie. It might be the weekends - a drink or two extra or just snacks that you forget to take into account. Or, yes, you're understimating meals.  Or, alternatively, your workouts are effectively converting body mass from fat to muscle so your body fat percentage is dropping but your weight isn't. ;)

If I wind up 230# of muscle I'll look a bit freakish.   :drill:  :grin:

Yeah, I should track meals better than just the mental accounting I'm doing. As far as snacks, I've had apples, bananas or a granola bar at work.. maybe some cheese or bread at home.  I'm not keeping snacks anymore and it's driving the family crazy.  They're all used to grazing and I'm done with enabling it.   I'll give that a shot and see how things actually are.

You gotta watch granola bars.  They are often full of crap and full of calories.  I have been eating a cup of fruit for lunch every day:  blueberries, strawberries and blackberries most often. 

Can't keep much fresh fruit at the office, it generates fruit flies within a day.  I don't eat the "granola bars" most folks think of - aka chewey quaker HFCS + Sugar + Chocolate crap.  I eat the Nature's Valley old-style crunchy ones - A little better for me and only 160 cal / 2 bars.

Ordered resistance bands and a mat tonight. 

My diet is already pretty good.  Whole fruits/veg and fish.  I snack on things like almonds and cashews along with a piece of fruit or two during the day instead of eating a normal lunch.  LOTS of water, no soda, almost no dairy.  I cook most of my own meals and do not eat much in the way of processed foods outside protein bars I guess? 

I am mobile enough and a fairly active cyclist.  Hopefully P90X works well for me!

So I've had a goal set for myself for the past couple of months that I've been working towards (having small goals helps you achieve big ones!).  I was aiming to be able to do sitting dumbell shoulder presses (military presses, whatever) with 90lbs in each hand, sans spotter (putting it just over my body weight).  I had just about worked up to 85 pounds...can't quite get up the first rep without a spotter.  80 is tough but doable for 6 to 8 reps.  I wanted to be able to do all this without putting on tons of weight that I would have to shed later, so I've been taking my time getting there.

And now I have moved back to Denmark after 5 years in the US.  I've joined up with the local fitness chain.  I think Danes must be a fairly wimpy race, because their dumbells only go up to 34 kilograms!  WTF?  That's like 75 pounds, for the uninformed among you.

So that's a goal I will never now achieve.  Not to mention the lack of challenge for dumbell bench presses.

I need a new goal.

Switch to bar weights? Try and do 100kg OHP with a bar.

40kg in each hand for seated military press is pretty impressive.

I find pushing weighted dips and chins to be good goals for me, that and the elusive 100kg OHP (I can do 95, with leg drive, 100kg is just too much though).

I have a bulging disk in my L5, so I really only dare doing heavy overhead stuff from a seated position.


iknowrite?  Which is precisely why I was trying to get there.   :angryfist:

Another problem with the local gym:  they seem to be allergic to decline bench presses, because they have no real apparatus for it.  That sucks for me, because my shoulder joints don't like going heavy on a flat bench (except with dumbbells for some reason, which I still haven't figured out).  Probably because my form is off somehow.  I feel decidedly less manly as a result.  I can't lift nearly as much on the flat bench.

K9 - do I recall you once mentioning that you did CrossFit?

I flirted with it for a month or two, but the facilities I can use are really not geared right, and I'm happy with my routine of powerlifting and olympic lifts. The more I read about CrossFit the more I have come to think that there are some really good core principles in there (high tempo, varied workouts) that is tied up in an awful lot of voodoo. Their stance on bench presses (no bench press) is frankly idiotic, since it is such a core strength-building lift for the whole of the upper torso.


Decline benches are a bit rare indeed, I know we used to just prop a flat bench up on a step under one of the power racks to do decline, it was far from ideal though. What is the issue with your shoulder joints, is it pain or lack of coordination? I started locking my traps under the bar and it has greatly improved the stability and power of my bench, if you are not doing that you might want to look into it. Widening your grip could help too.

I don't know much about spinal injuries, so always stick to what feels safest.

Don't know about bench press - can't tell you the last time I actually lifted a weight - but yeah, I kinda agree about the voodoo thing. I'm very curious about CrossFit Endurance but nearest one is in Bethnal Green which is far too far away.

Declines recruit lats.  That's why you (and everyone else) can lift more decline.  You can get the same results by doing flat bench and bentover rows.  I only ever use a decline bench for triceps any more and it's really just a method to break up the monotony. 

90lb military dumbell presses?  You're a beast!

Google lists one in Southwark (http://www.crossfitcentrallondon.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=71&Itemid=122), but sod £100 per month. Crossfit seems good if your goal is to be an all-rounder, but it requires quite a lot of motivation to get results I think. I am slightly averse to joining a special cross-fit gym, but then I am fortunate to have access to two very good university gyms. Without that I might be a bit more tempted. Really the only bit of kit that a crossfit gym has that would really improve my workouts are good rings. Olympic bars, kettlebells and spots for chins and dips you can find in any half-decent gym.

You missed the part where I am actually unable to do them.  I can probably do a few 85s with a spotter, and 80s for 8 reps without a spotter.  But yeah, I seem to have unusually strong shoulders for my size (I'm about 5'8" 175lbs).

Now its moot though, because my gym only has 36kg dumbbells (i said 34 before), which is about 80 lbs.  Fucking hooray.

Regarding the declines, I find the opposite to generally be true...I usually see people are able to do less than their normal bench.  Probably a combination of not doing them very often combined with the fact that most people neglect their backs entirely.  Might depend on your gym.

K9 - I find that my range of motion gets strangely limited on the flat bench, and it can begin to bother my delts when the weights get heavy.  I am pretty sure that I am flaring out my elbows way too much...and that is primarily why I do the declines.  Not only does it allow me to move more weight (which is almost always a good thing), but I know my form is way better because my elbows are not all flared out.  It's just far more comfortable for me in all ways, so I stick to it.

£100 a month is definitely steep. I pay £20 for an okay gym that gives me what I need at the moment - i.e. a treadmill, some floor space and a shower. With the option of some weights when I get around to it. No kettleballs though but as and when I get around to using them for training, I'll reassess.

Then again, my goals are specific: run long, run far. The race 10 days ago was 100 miles around the Lake District (although I retired after 75) and I've got an 85 miler in just over two weeks. Common wisdom says you basically need to do loads and loads of long slow runs but I'm intrigued by the fact that some of the Crossfit guys reckon they only do three runs a week and no run further than 13 miles but they still complete 100 mile races (like the Western States in the US) in under 24 hours. That's the type of bodyhack thinking I can get behind which is why I want to find out more.

As a total aside, I've come to the decision over the last couple of days that I'm going to change my career. Fuck software development - fuck it in it's stupid arse. Provided I don't change my mind in the next couple of days, I'm going to retrain as a Level 3 Personal Trainer and start the course in September.  :drill:

The £100 per month deal sounds more like it offers classes and actual training.  It sounds pretty awesome, really.  But then it ought to. 

I suspect part of this is due to the bloody-minded nature of the average crosfitter  :grin:

Doing heavy lifting can definitely improve your stamina, I do very little cardio other than the six miles in and out of work on a bike and I did 22 miles at the weekend from Fulham up to Hampstead Heath and back without much difficulty. I could have gone further, and this was after doing eight sets of bodyweight squats the day before.

Just signed up to run my first half in October.   Coming off an overuse injury (protip: change your damn running shoes when they start causing issues, not a month or two later). so I may end up looking into the various run/walk plans that get mentioned so as to prevent re-injury.

Excellent tip.  As someone over 40 that runs, I always buy well-cushioned trainers and replace them every 300 miles or so.  It has helped keep my knees in good shape. 

I  was just being dumb and had a series of events lined up that I didn't want to try and break in new shoes with. So instead, it ended up being a month of hobbling around and PT with a bit of something (maybe ITBS, maybe some strained lower back muscles, maybe both! It's the gift that keeps giving).   But yes, I had figured that the 300-500 mile shoe thing was overstated and mostly driven by marketing.  It really isn't.   

You can tell if you need to replace your trainers with a simple test: put them on a table top or similar flat surface. If they rock from side to side then replace them as they've worn down unequally (likely becuase of pronation etc.) The 300-500 mile guideline is okay but generally only if you're pounding concrete. If you do a lot of off-road running, you might get away with double that. (I have one pair of trainers that are nearing the end of their useful life after nearly 800 miles and that's mainly because the uppers are coming away. YMMV - literally.)

But new trainers aren't a panacea for all running injuries. If you think you've got ITB problems (do you work behind a desk?) then you need to address that before it gets serious. Mostly you can do it through stretching the hip flexors, some strengthening and, if you can, go see a good physio for an assessment (and a massage?)

As a total aside, I'm about to start researching this whole barefoot/minimalist running stuff which people swear stops them getting injuries. I'm not convinced but don't know enough about it to make a judgement. I'm trying to keep an open mind.

Good luck with your half btw.

I heard a great line from a shoe salesman the other day.  He asked me about my running and I told him that I was fairly neutral but tended to supinate when I got tired.  He says to me "Oh, you mean that you under-pronate".  I smiled and thanked him for his time. 

I'm sadly on a first name basis with the physio guys at this point (funnily enough, not even all from running - I was at the beach and had my shoulder fucked up by a wave crashing on it.  And then my wife had to visit them for awhile due to our second child throwing her pelvis out of alignment.).  

I've been doing physio now for almost a month at this point - mostly stretching and strength work, along with massage to try and get certain things to release.  On my own, it's 20-30 minutes of stretching/strength work a day, on top of my usual routine of weekly yoga.  Of course, most of the recommended things he has me doing are yoga (child pose, pigeon, lying spinal twist) and I've added a few other recommended for more hip, IT band, and hamstring work.   And it definitely all seems to be getting better - I did an easy five miles last night and while I was sore, it was nothing like what was happening when this first hit me.  So it's one of those things that'll just take time to really work through I think.

When I started looking at new shoes, I was eyeing the minimalist stuff - but there's a LOT of reports now that they're causing as many problems as they solve.  Just different ones.  Rather than shin splints, you get metatarsal stress fractures.   I figured I'd just stick with my Brooks Defyance's instead, since they've treated me very well.

I just picked up a pair of Brooks Ghost 4's (http://www.brooksrunning.com/Brooks-Ghost-4-Mens-Running-Shoe/110098,default,pd.html), and I love them!  I've been an Asics Nimbus guy for years, but after only a few miles I'm sold on these shoes.  The fact that they're also $30 cheaper is a bonus!

I really wanted to try a set of Ghost 4's - I'm hearing a lot of people rave about them over the old 3's (which I tried and was pretty enh about).

I switched to Brooks too!  I'm wearing the Beast (http://www.brooksrunning.com/Brooks-Beast-Best-Motion-Control-Running-Shoe/1100794E099.160,default,pd.html?start=1&cgid=mens-runningshoes-control) from them, and Addiction-walker (http://www.brooksrunning.com/Addiction-Walker/1100392E111.140,default,pd.html?start=5&cgid=mens-walkingshoes) which is there all white leather which is a great hospital shoe if your department wants and all white shoe, they have all black if that is what is in the dress code too (mine wants white, the other one I start PRN at wants black...go figure!).

Brooks are awesome. I wore Beast for years when I was doing lots of road running. Switched to Ravenna this year and got a pair of trail shoes from them too which have been great - no blisters, feels like I've been wearing them for years (in a good way).


What little I have looked into regarding minimalist stuff so far, this doesn't surprise me - not because it's anything to do with running barefoot but because people just think they can put on a pair of Vibrams and go running like they usually do.

Skip to the end if you're not interested in my musings:


What I've read so far is that minimalist running requires a total change in technique - shorter stride pace, quicker cadence, forefoot/midfoot landing, more fluid motion and, most importantly, less impacting foot strikes. It's not something that can be rushed into though - for a start, no padding on the heel in particular means that you're achilles and calf are going to work harder than they're used to because they're going to get stretched more. So switching to minimalist shoes is not something someone does unless they're prepared to spend weeks or even months changing the way they run.

What strike me about all this, though, is that it's describing something similar to the technique I was taught 25 years ago when I started getting coached properly on the track (as a sprinter and long jumper). It wasn't revolutionary thinking - it was just my coach trying to get me to run properly - like a sprinter instead of a rugby player. I have a suspicion that the same thing is happening here - the people who find success using barefoot/pose method/chi running or whatever are doing so because they're learning to run more efficiently: not letting the hips sag, avoiding heel strikes, getting a better range of motion with their legs, having a better posture etc. But now I'm at a point where I want to find out more.

tl;dr I don't know that much about minimalist running. Yet.

Yeah from what I've read on minimalist stuff for running it's really that if you're not running the way your body is 'designed' to then something lets you know about it pretty soon. If you ease into it and practice the correct form it can clear up issues people have had but mostly because you're being forced to run in a way your body copes well with rather than any magical thing from getting rid of padding and protection of the foot. If you don't change your running style you'll end up a lot worse off than sticking with well padded and properly fitted shoes.

Other things our bodies weren't designed for:

Clean water
Cooked food
Medicine
Beds
Toilets
Toothbrushes

I'm being snarky, but I don't buy into that minimalist footwear stuff (unless you're hardcore like that Cody guy on Dual Survival).  Plus, don't forget the biggest reason:  they look enormously stupid.  Quite probably the lamest looking footwear ever invented.

The 'designed' was very much in quotes, the point being (if you buy into the minimalist hype) having all that cushioning lets us run in ways our bodies aren't really set up to cope with. Heel striking isn't particularly comfortable without a load of cushioning to take the force once you get past a very slow jog. Of course some people also insist that running on concrete will kill you pretty quick since our ancestors never had to run on such hard and regular surfaces and our bodies can't cope, though I believe that there's no strong statistical difference in injury rates for runners who tend to use different surfaces.

As far as looking stupid are you thinking of the Vibrams? They certainly do look awful but there are quite a lot of other makes of minimalist footwear around as well. I've got a pair of Merrel trailgloves that don't look any stupider than other running shoe I've owned and I think you could probably get away with wearing their tough glove as a casual shoe.

Shoes are similar technology to shock absorbers.  Running with minimal cushioning means that your knees are taking maximal pounding unless you drastically alter your form.  I'd argue that you'd almost have to speedwalk to avoid excess knee trauma while running in the minimalist things.  I know what 40+ years of pounding does to joints as I wake up in pain every morning.  I like my knees.  I wear as much cushioning in my shoes as I reasonably can.

Bit OT, but anybody have experience with buying wide trainers?

The Ghost 4's I just bought are 2E width, if that's what you mean.  When I buy trainers, I try to find them in a brick & mortar and see how much room I have in the toe box.  Then I go online and buy the 2E versions adjusting for the extra length it took to make them stop feeling so snug.  Usually 2E's are a 1/2 size smaller than what I'd wear in a standard width. 

I hope that's what you were after. 

I never thought of that, thanks. I have unusually wide feet, and bought my first pair of wide trainers last week. They feel more comfortable, but I still get pains in my feet when walking and I'm pretty sure I'm not flat footed (done the wet test and everything).

The big problem with having to go wide is that it does cut down your options by quite a bit.  That said, I usually wear a 9.5 shoe, but my Brooks Defyance 4's are a 10EE. 

If you can find a local running store, they're usually really good at doing a gait analysis (neutral/over/under pronation) and fitting you for the proper shoes.

If Vibrams are those things that have an individual compartment for each of your piggies, then yes, those things.  They look like aquasox for the mentally impaired.

Pain in your feet while walking isn't good. Whereabouts is the pain?

Usually in the arch of the foot. I can't really describe why or how it pops up. I'm definitely heavy (working on it), but the shoe feels like it fits decently, thoug the heel is a bit lose, but if I start walking I just end up with an ache the feels like its in the arch of my foot.

The other problem I have with me feet is that they're big as well as wide. I'm somewhere around a size 12.5 (UK) which makes it a bit difficult to find shoes.

Yeah, I hear that. I don't have quite so many problems as I'm more of an 11.5 - 12 which seems to be easier to find these days.

If you've got a pain in your arch then there's a lot of things it could be - plantar fascitis is normally felt in the heel under the calcaneus (heel bone) but it's not unheard of for the pain to be felt directly in the arch of the foot too (in the plantar fascia). Other symptoms could be tight achilles (the plantar fascia can also be put under strain while walking if there's tension in the achilles) or, rather than flat feet, your arches are quite high and so stretch too much under weight if they're not adequately supported.  If you feel like the heel is la bit loose then it may well be that the shoe is not providing enough support.

Only way to be sure, obviously, is go see a doctor or a podiatrist (who would no doubt suggest very expensive custom made orthotics).

Thanks for the advice. Will probably check in with a doctor. Could very well be the achilles, my martial art involves break falling using the feet (either by landing on the ball or the heel).

That's them. I do a bit of weight lifting stuff in them but just feel too self-conscious to wear them out running. Fortunately for me not all minimalist footwear looks as instantly ridiculous. (http://www.merrell.com/US/en-US/Product.mvc.aspx/22875M/50390/Mens/Barefoot-Trail-Glove)

If you're not going to wear your shock absorbers, you could always run on the surfaces legs were 'designed' for :) Barefoot trail running ftw.

I do all my exercising in 5 fingers and it's great.  I can't use regular shoes any more. 

I see absolutely no joint advantage to running barefoot or in rubber-bottomed socks.  Considering the work that has been done on my knees over the years, I can't even imagine running in anything less than a well-cushioned trainer. 

Is there any research backing these new toe shoes?  I can see them being great as water socks or for climbing, but not for running. 

Not any research that I've seen.  I'm not doing any serious running in them, but I know that some folks have run marathons in them and did okay.  Serious marathoner shoes have always been pretty minimalist, so maybe it's not too much of a change for them.  For the average joe, however, it probably comes back to the deal that everyone is unique to an extent.  Some folks would do better with a minimalist shoe and some won't.  

As a funny aside, I played golf in my vibrams the other day and it was pretty awesome.  

Play golf barefoot.  The greens feel awesome!

I worry some about the shit the sprinkle on the greens and fairways.  I get enough pesticides and fertilizer in my diet.   :grin:

There are some not really ironclad studies (nature (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v463/n7280/full/nature08723.html), performed by this lab (http://www.barefootrunning.fas.harvard.edu/)), cautiously showing there may be benefits. That one centers around the fact that heelstrikes are bad and, if you have lousy posture, feedback quickly corrects your barefoot running form to prevent heelstrikes. There's also some ancillary evidence talking about more strength in some of the smaller muscle groups used for balance which can also prevent injury.

But they're awful for climbing. You can't really climb in them because of the separated toes. Instead of your weight being spread out over your entire foot, it's concentrated generally on your big toe. They've got the grip (most climbing shoes are made with vibram rubber) but you can't lever all your weight on a single toe.

They're good for water, obviously, assuming you get the full foot one. Unfortunately, sand DOES still get in them and it's pretty obnoxious.

I ran a 5k in them earlier this year, for what it's worth.

Don't lick your feet and it won;t matter what's on them.

Makes a lot of sense.  Thanks for the links.  I'm surprised I missed the Nature paper as I usually read Nature.  I can see how it would be corrective to form and help ancillary muscles, but knowing a bit about the calculation of forces, the knee takes quite a pounding over time.  I have to think that cushioned shoes are still far superior with regard to maximizing cartilage life and durability.

Could that be because the human body is not "designed" ( :grin: ) to last as long as it does these days ?

I was going to mention that, but didn't want to start that discussion for the Nth time.

You are welcome, then.  :awesome_for_real:

Carry on.

Hey, if you can play golf without licking your feet then you must be a better player than I am. 

As long as you are aware that you looked like a complete tool, then I suppose that's cool  :awesome_for_real:

The only research I've ever heard of on those things amounts to "hey! our primitive ancestors NEVER wore shoes!"  Of course, they also lived to be about 32.  Maybe because they couldn't run fast enough to escape the big scary dinosaurs and stuff.

So in the last week since we had this discussion, I've been doing a fair bit of reading around on this topic  There are a lot of studies about running injuries, shoes vs barefoot, footstrike and gait etc. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Link&db=pubmed&dbFrom=PubMed&from_uid=9429006).  I didn't have time (or money) to read many of them though. But this article (http://www.sportsci.org/jour/0103/mw.htm) from sportsscience.org does an overview of a lot of studies (and references them) from as far back as 1983. There are studies that show that padded shoes appear to cause more injuries - like this one (http://www.pmrjournal.org/article/S1934-1482%2809%2901367-7/fulltext) - but it's written by someone who may, or may not, have a vested interest. (http://oeshshoes.com/)

A more recent, 2007 study (Incidence and determinants of lower extremity running injuries in long distance runners: a systematic review (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2465455/?tool=pubmed)) explicitly reviewed over 1000 studies and found that only 17 studies matched their criteria. Even then, I have some queries about their findings (namely - they found that most injuries ocurred in the knee but they don't appear to show the nature of those injuries which could be cartilage or could be patellafemoral etc.) They also didn't seem to include many studies on the effect of shoes but that might be me not understanding their tables. A lot of my takeaway from reading this that all the other studies provide low quality or conflicting results.

tl;dr - no studies have conclusively shown that barefoot running lowers or increases injury rate BUT equally, no studies have conclusively shown that padded trainers lower or increase injury rate either.

Swim instead.

Barefoot.

Studies have shown that you're more likely to get attacked by a shark while swimming barefoot than you are if you go running barefoot.

I should have a word with the lifeguards at the pool, then.

Swimming can fuck you up in other ways.. but it takes a long, long ass time to do it.  (Hello hyperextended knee and tendonitis of the shoulders.)

On the other hand, I remember hearing a recent study found that regular swimmers lived longer than even people in better shape than themselves.  Nobody's quite figured out why.  I should add the pool back in to my routine now that I've got muscles again.

How do you define 'better shape' though?

Picked up my bib tonight.  First half on Saturday - my daughter is going to be doing the kids run with Mommy while Daddy tries to remember he thought running 13.1 miles was a good idea.

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-lPJc-73bMmg/TpdWP4_1N1I/AAAAAAAAFg8/0AX9IpwdT_c/s800/11%252520-%2525201%252520%2525281%252529.jpg)

Is there crab at the end?

Good luck JWIV - hope it goes well and, more than that, hope you enjoy it!

On a side note, I signed up for Fitocracy (http://www.fitocracy.com/) today after seeing the XKCD.com cartoon about it (and then found that it's all over CNN too). It's basically an exercised based social game with MMO/RPG-esque mechanics. You earn "XP" for any exercises you do and get levels, complete quests, earn achievements and other shit. Amused me for at least half an hour (and fortunately ties in with RunKeeper which is what I normally save my workouts too).

Anyone else signed up on it at all?

I signed up to get notice about it, but I'm not 'in'.  Is there anyone actually in that hook a playa' up?

Yep - I'm on it as jwiv

Luckton - check your PMs, I sent you an invite link.

This is a perfect workout for fatasses trying to reclaim lost glory. Possibly played football once, but then got married and became a middle manager.

Won't do any wonders for the scrawny geek demographic. They've got it harder actually.

Edit: Thanks JWIV. In as rldmoto.

Ok, so I logged my last work out and jumped to level four immediately, got an achievement and then spent some time rooting around through the quests to see when I'd be getting other achievements.

This thing is pretty sweet, and I dig the social aspect of it. Definitely going to recommend it to other friends of mine.

I also think that you don't need to be someone who's a fitness nut to get involved. It's got descriptions of all the exercises you'd want to do and I really think the social aspect of it will provide motivation for people who aren't super into working out.

Thanks, mang!  :grin:

Looks interesting. I signed up just to check it out when it's open.

How does it work, exactly?  Are you guys in some sort of group/guild, or is it just every man for himself?

There are groups you can join but on the whole, it's everyone for themselves. I've added an F13 tag to my profile (which is TrailDragon there rather than this one) Haven't delved into it far beyond that apart from having a look at some of the achievements and quests. Danger for me with it all is letting my achiever side take over and try to get achievements done at the expense of my own training goals (yes I might like to be able to deadlift twice my own body weight but I'm not sure it's going to help me).

Well, I'm curious.  Any way I can get an invite, or is it just closed at this point?

DM me your email and I'll send you an invite. (I got in by logging in with my Runkeeper account so if you have one of those, you could try that.)

PM Sent

I added the F13 tag to my profile and went ahead and created an F13 group. That's probably easier than trying to follow everyone, as I think our workouts are automatically posted to groups.

I sent invites to JWIV and TrailDragon, but I'm pretty sure the group is open.

And oh, someone make a better logo. I just cropped the f13.net logo from here.

If any of you are SomethingAwful members the Watch and Woot board there has been pretty excited over this, unsurprisingly one or two of the development guys for it are goons and they've been giving out free accounts to anyone on SA that asks.

Belated thanks for the invite.

I find this....interesting.  I don't really have motivation problems when it comes to working out (I usually have the opposite problem....knowing when to take a freaking break).  Still, I find myself consciously thinking about this stuff when I am working out.

Some of the quests seem kind of weird and potentially counter-productive, but I could definitely see it being helpful to people who need a carrot to chase.

They need to figure out how to integrate some kind of random loot engine, so that I can have an avatar and eventually equip him with giant spikey shoulderpads.  I'm only half kidding.

I'm finding it's difficult to enter my workouts correctly.  Some of the machines my gym has don't seem to be on their lists, meaning I've got to pick the closest alternate.

I found that today - two or three of the exercises I did (of six!) weren't in the list. You've reminded me that I need to email them about it.


Yeah, I've noticed that about the quests and the achievements. I'll have to reign in my achiever tendencies so as not to decide to aim to be able to bench press my own weight or whatever it is. It's a tempting goal to work to but I absolutely do not need to do it. The sub 6 minute mile, however, is another story!  :grin:

The loot idea is.... interesting.

I'll make you a deal.  I'll bench your body weight and you run the sub 6 mile for me.  We can powerlevel each other!

Done!  :awesome_for_real:

I'm pretty sure that's against the EULA! 

The achievements appear to be generally good ones, depending one what your specific goals are.  The weightlifting ones are perfectly valid, for example...being able to bench your body weight, or deadlift 1.5 times your wait (et.c) are pretty normal goals people set for themselves.  The weirdness I was referring to was more in some of the "quests" themselves...such as the ones that require you to do ten sets of something in a single week.  I deliberately try to avoid stuff like that for the most part, as it can actually be counter-productive to making actual progress.

But whatever.  It's still a good idea. 

German volume training (http://www.muscleandstrength.com/articles/german-volume-training-for-shocking-muscle-growth.html) would take care of that.  You do 10 sets of 10 reps for a single exercise to get a complete breakdown of the associated muscle.  It's great for getting gains when you've plateaued. 

That's an interesting looking program, I might have to try it.  My comments on the counter-productiveness of 10 sets a weeks was more thinking about the people who spend every session on the bench press.  I.e. 5 sets on Monday, 5 sets on Tuesday, 5 sets on Wednesday, etc., for the whole damn week.  This GVT thing makes actual sense, because it still has a sensible split. 

Meanwhile, I was able to perform squats yesterday for the first time in about a year-and-a-half!  I probably mentioned earlier in this thread that I have had a fairly significant bulging/herniated disc in my L5, and injury that dates back to spring of 2010  (ironically caused by deadlifts, in that I've since been back to doing deads just fine, but have had to stay away from the squat rack).  I've been noticing lately that I have been in significantly less pain than usual through the course of an average day, so I decided to try some relatively light squats.  I was surprised to find out that I could do them pain free.  Kept the max weight fairly low (about 210 x5), as I figure I need to be careful...and since my legs are girlishly weak from lack of squats.

Still, as much as I hate actually performing squats, I am thrilled.

Nebu - I'm looking more into that GVT link you posted....it is potentially very useful for me, because I have have definitely hit a few plateaus that I want to break through.  I have a question for you (assuming you've tried the routine);  while it says that it is a 10x10 routine that aims for 100 total reps, it also gives the conflicting message that you should "keep pushing out the extra reps"...and then it goes back to saying how you shouldn't worry about the easy first few sets, because you'll be begging for your mama by the later sets.  Bunch of conflicting things.  Basically, then, I wonder about how many reps I should really be attempting, especially for the first few sets.  I mean, at 50-60% of 1RM, it would be easy to exceed 10 reps early on...should you do so?  It seems you would potentially overload the front of the workout at the expense of the back end.

If in doubt, I think I would stick to doing exactly 10 reps every time.  Let me know what you think.  I think I am going to give this a whirl.  I'm a little bit scared, I don't mind saying.

I think that article is saying you should be aiming for 100 reps but if you can't do that you should be doing as many as possible. I'd guess you leave the early sets on 10 reps for a good warm up that doesn't overtax you and then be trying for 10 reps on the final few sets. If you can manage it then next time you up the final weight by 5lbs and do that until you manage 100 reps with that weight.

That sounds like a good way of reading it, thanks.  I'll give chest, shoulders and triceps a go today and let you guys know how much I hate Nebu tomorrow.

This.  The whole point of GVT is to completely obliterate all muscle fibers in the group involved.  You want to pick your weight so that you can do 10 reps pretty well for the first 5 sets.  By set 6, you'll start to feel the damage.  By set 9, you should be lucky to do 8 reps.  If you can crank out 100 reps, then add some weight the next week. 

You can get away with a 3-per-week using GVT. 
Mon: Chest/back supersets
Wed: Legs (focused work on quads/gluts)
Fri: Shoulders/Arm supersets

This kind of workout requires more rest than normal.  I work out 4-5 days a week and find that MWF destroys me. 

Hope that helps.

So here's what I'm thinking:

Mon: Barbell bench press, Sitting Dumbbell shoulder presses, Skullcrushers
Weds: Pendlay Rows, Close gripped Lat pulldowns, preacher curls, ab machine
Fri: Squats, Leg Curls, calf raises

Half tempted to mix in Deadlifts somewhere, but all indications point to it being a bad idea. 

When I think of the 50-60% of the 1RM I have to use...man, it just doesn't sound hard.  I think I might be in for a rude surprise.

I want you to consider this: Your triceps will get blasted during the bench.  No need to work them with skullcrushers.  This is why I work chest/back on the same day.  Chest works pecs and tris.  Back works lats and biceps.  With GVT you want to focus only on the major muscle groups.  The ancillary muscles will get plenty of work, believe me. 

I'm starting a new GVT today.  I'm going to do 6-10 weeks and then doing crossfit for a couple of months.  I'll try to post updates. 

I'm still thinking of doing some Crossfit. I sort of already am but in my own ubiquitous way and probably nowhere near as hardcore as the actual thing. Will be interested to know how you get on.

I'm dreading it to be honest.  While I'm pretty fit for lifting, I'm in bad aerobic condition.  I have a tough time running 3 miles in under 25 mins, but attribute it to being 30 lbs over my normal running weight.  I'm at a solid 205 lbs now (at 6' tall).  When I'm in my best aerobic condition, I'm much closer to 175 or so.  I just bought myself a power tower to help me get some of my mass off and sculpt to a more natural build.  

I'll keep you guys posted after New Years.  Of course, I'm open to hearing about the programs you guys are on.  Talk me out of crossfit, I beg you!

I forgot to add: GNC has these things for buy 1 get the 2nd 50% off.  I love these things.

(http://www.opamerica.com/images/blender-bottle.jpg)

I was essentially just going after pretty much the exact program that was laid out in the article.  At any rate...

GVT Day 1:  Yeah, so the program is tough.  One of the harder parts of it for me is holding to the 60 - 90 second rest period between sets.  I don't usually time myself, and tend to take it fairly relaxed between sets, so I found that speeding up the pace was a bit of a challenge.  Sometimes you just don't quite feel ready to start that next set, but I forced myself anyway.

Start off with the barbell bench presses.  Wasn't really sure how much weight to use (not really sure what my 1RM is), so I went with 55 kg to be a bit on the conservative side.  It was a bit more challenging than I thought it would be, but I did manage to crank out all 100 reps by the end of the last set.  Was glad to be done with it.  In hindsight, I should have put a little more weight on the bar...will definitely do 60kg next week.  I just didn't struggle as much as I probably should have through the last few sets.

Next up, seated dumbell shoulder presses.  This is usually right in my wheel house, but my arms are already feeling a bit rubbery after all the bench presses.  Start off with 18kg per hand, which is still a bit on the light side for me.  Do three sets with that, and then move up to 20 kg per hand.  That's better, but ultimately probably still not quite enough.  I'm not loving life, but I do manage to crank out every last rep in relatively good shape.  Arms are rubbery, and can definitely tell that I have had a different kind of workout today.  Probably need to try 22kg per hand next week, because the challenge just wasn't quite enough for the last three sets...don't get me wrong, they sucked - but there was never any doubt in my mind that I would push them out.

Decided to go against the skullcrushers, because my arms are rubbery enough at this point that I genuinely feared I might end up with a broken nose if I tried them.  I did, however, still have something left in the tank, so like the article said I should, I kept pushing.  Chose simple cable triceps pushdowns.  Tried 25kg on the first set, but had to bump it down to 20kg from the second onwards, because while I seem to have plenty of endurance left, my power is just gone.  Manage to push out all 100 reps without too much trouble.

The day after.  I am not sore.  I can tell my arms are in a clearly weakened state (still quite rubbery), but I don't have any DOMS going on at all.  That's fine, I guess...I usually only ever get sore after I take a week or two off from lifting, or if I start an exercise I haven't tried in a while.  Still, I was expecting some amount of pain.  I already know that I need to increase weight a little both on the bench and the shoulders, so maybe that will help.  I need to get closer to failing these lifts.

Wednesday will be Pull day.  Not too worried about that, because, well....I like pulling?  Friday scares the bejeesus out of me.  That's going to hurt (because you'll remember from earlier that I am just getting back to the squats), and I like be able to walk like normal.

Yeah, you keep using that as an excuse. I haven't had the heart previously to tell you that I'm 6'2" and 200lbs (down from nearly 225 at the beginning of the year) Bet your body fat % is half mine too! :why_so_serious:

Hey, now...you forget that Nebu is a senior citizen.  Respect your elders and whatnot. 

True. Those couple of years or so make all the difference.  :grin:

Neb's previously mentioned his 6-pack.  His body fat % is probably pretty damn low for a guy half MY age, never mind his own.

It's the walker.  I'm mid-40's and it's hell to stay lean.  I've been on about 1200 Cal the past two weeks and it's making me REALLY crabby.  

Cyrrex: You should be fine today.  Tomorrow is when I feel it the most, but my recovery times tend to be a bit on the long side.  I spent Monday lunch doing chest/back and started with 155lb bench presses (barbell) and 132 lb narrow grip lat seated rows as a superset (crank out 10 bench presses and immediately do 10 seated rows, then take 60-90s rest).  I started to fail around 8 reps on bench at my 6th set.  By the 10th set, I could barely muster 6 reps.  I'm fine with this.  

My evening workout is usually a 3 mile run followed by naturals.  I do pushups (flat and incline), vertical knee raises, inclined situps with a medicine ball on my head, dips, wide and narrow grip pullups.  I try to do 3 sets of everything, though today I could barely do my wide grip pullups due to my lunch workout.  

Edit: I hate to admit it, but I've recently turned to thermogenics to help me cut some weight I picked up when my GF of two years dumped me.  For those of you considering thermogenics, I've found OxyElite pro to be about the best of the lot with Lipo6 to be a close second.  Hydroxycut is worthless.

I'm shifting back to powerlifting for the winter I think. I have hardly benched or deadlifted all summer and I want to get back to heavy lifts. On the up side, I can max out hangcleans at my bodyweight (90kg) and I managed 3x60kg hang snatch the other day. I'm not sure how to balance olympic lifts with power lifts with bodyweight stuff (that I have been weaving in and out of since the start of the year). I don't have a chain belt so I'm not really going anywhere with my dips and chins now. I need to have a rethink about what my goals are I guess.


KIP ALL THE THINGS! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKp7fBtj81c)  :why_so_serious:

I can see the appeal of Crossfit, but the more I read about it the more I conclude that it is a high intensity exercise for ADD alpha-bro types designed by ADD alpha-bro types. There's a lot of good ideas in there, but there's also a lot of unstructured voodoo. I think they achieve most of their results through brute force and tears than by finesse; it doesn't seem like an efficient system. It probably depends on your goals though, if you are an all-out type of person then Crossfit will probably reap you some benefits, but then if you are that type of person you'd probably do just as well on any sufficiently interesting programme.

Maybe a few more than a couple of years then! ;)

The closest I get to taking thermogenics is a liberal application of chilis in most meals. It has the bonus side effect of meaning that my wife won't eat any meals I make so I can make a huge batch of very hot chili and know it won't get eaten before I get home.


Could you elaborate a bit on this - particularly about what you consider "unstructured voodoo" and why you don't think it's efficient?

Thanks to everyone for the shoe talk a few pages back.  Got a good pair of running shoes last week, and man does it make a difference.   :awesome_for_real:

Now to find some work shoes that give the same support...

No pain whatsoever.  For now I will blame it on a combination of already being in good lifting shape, and also due to underestimating myself and not lifting heavy enough.  Like I said, I wasn't really in danger of failing reps.  I probably underestimated my 1RMs a little bit, and then I took 50% of that to stay conservative.  My puny 125 pound benches could have easily been 160 pound lifts if I had calculated more aggressively.

Even so, I'm not going to go too far to the other extreme.  I will add 10 pounds or so to the bar and see what happens next week.  And I'm still quite sure leg day is going to kill me.

GVT Lifting Day 2 - Back, Biceps and Abs:

Did my first "pull" day yesterday.  Not feelling sore at all, but once again I can feel that my arms are fatigued and weak.  Whole workout was harder than I expected, and I find that it takes a bit of mental fortitude to get through every last set.  Tried to go with a 70 second rest between sets.

Close-Grip Pulldowns:  Decided to go with 75kg, based on a theoretical 1RM of 120kg (machine only goes up to 100, so I'm guessing a little).  Seems like a pretty good weight.  My lats and arms are fairly well burning by the last couple of reps in the last couple of sets, but I manage to get through them okay.  I will probably try 80kg next week.

Pendlay Barbell Rows:  Started with 40kg, based on a 1RM 75kg.  I probably went too conservative with the weight, but I find Pendlay Rows to be so awkward that I decided to keep it a bit on the low side until I can get a little bit more solid form.  Will probably go up to 45kg next week.  Even so, my arms are getting very weary by the last two sets.  I can barely crank out the final rep in 8, 9 and 10, but I manage it.  This exercise also seems to make me more arm weary than anything else, and I can feel almost nothing in my back. 

Crunches:  Did 30 simple sets between exercises, just to kill time and rest.  Didn't really plan on doing any major abs work anyway, as the squats on Friday will hit those well enough.

Seated Cable Rows:  Because of the lack of impact on my back from the Pendlays, I decided to add a 10x10 of Rows to my workout.  Believe me, at this point in the workout, that was no light decision to make.  My arms are fucking tired, and I'd just as soon curl up in a ball and weep for a while.  Nonetheless, I press on.  Set the machine to 45kg, which would ordinarily be a bit too low, but for this workout I was genuinely worried about being able to complete 10 sets.  It ended up being spot on.  I finished all 100 reps, but holy fuck the last 2 reps in the last 8 sets were tough.  I wanted to go home after the second set.  Damn are my arms tired.

Barbell Curls:  At this point in the workout, I really could have just called it a day.  My biceps are basically numb.  Still, I have a tiny bit left in the tank.  I am under no illusion that I will get more than about 3 sets of 10 here, even at a low weight.  I put 30kg on the bar (probably more like 27kg...no idea how much the curl bar here actually weighs).  God damn.  I somehow manage to crank out 2 sets, but that is IT.  This curl bar can go fuck itself for all I care.

Can't wait for Friday  :uhrr:

Since this the general workout thread, an update for myself; I decided after my shitty 5k that I really need to work on a more rounded exercise and that climbing, while fun, ain't doing it. Time to gain some muscle.

So, I'm hitting the gym with my roommate and his coworker mon-thurs and then climbing at some point on the weekend, generally Sat. I'm also increasing my intake with 1-2 350 cal ensure shakes per day plus a single protein shake since I can't easily increase my per-meal consumption or my number of meals. I hope to gain quite a bit of muscle though I'm not willing to strip out the occasional weekend beer drink and do the diet requirements for the Nebu-style abs.

I do whatever they tell me to do, which is generally 40 minutes of cardio (15 on leg day) Treadmill/Row machine/Eliptical/Stairclimber then 2 sets of 12 reps of each, weighted to failure on the end of the 2nd set. Roughly, Monday = Upper back, Tues = Legs/Lower Back, Wed = Arms, Thurs = core. Workouts look something like this, but are changed up every week, I think my roommate's coworker has a program that spits out workouts or something:

Leg Press
Leg Extension
Leg Curl
Dumbbell Lunges
Abductors
45 Calf Raises (flat to toes)
Decline Sit Up
Seated Calf raises (flat to dropped)
45 calf press (flat to heel)
Medicine Ball Sit Up
Twisting Sit Up

I'm about 3 weeks in. I was "waking up in the middle of the night" sore the first week. Now, it's just unpleasant. Still far away from the traditional "Bench 1.5x weight" and other traditional measures; I am much stronger in some muscles than others due to climbing and some things in particular like my chest have a ways to go.

Ultimately, I would like not only to bench 1.5% body weight but also complete an actual pullup-to-dip "mantle", something I have always wanted to be able to do. Fuck running, though. I feel like I gave it the college try. I still hate it.

I'm confused by this 1.5% body weight bench. Should that be 150%?

1.5x I meant. Obviously! Long week...

Hey bhodi - I'll get straight to it.  That program sounds....weird.  It's extremely (overly) leg intensive, and think it is possible that your roommate's co-worker has a calf fetish of some kind.  It's also too ab centric, especially when you consider doing abs in isolation isn't terribly necessary to begin with.  And then he changes it every week and mixes in loads and loads of cardio?  It's a bit too scattershot and unfocused, IMO.  The guys who workout like this may be in relatively good shape, but they never improve anything.

If you are really looking to put on muscle, there are far more efficient (and well known) methods.  Your first order of business is to go tell your roommate's co-worker to go workout with the other women.  :awesome_for_real:  Second, simplify and narrow down your workout using the following lifts:

Squats
Deadlifts
Bench Press (any incline/decline dumb/barbell variation)
Overhead presses (standing/seated dumb/barbell
Bent over or Pendlay rows - a good seated cable row would be okay as well
Pull/chin-ups or a good cable lat pulldown machine

And that is basically all you need to get a real solid base going.  Any ab, biceps, triceps, calves, etc., is basically superfluous in the beginning and only really need be done in moderation and only if you have something left in the tank after doing the above (i.e. always do them last or not at all).  You want to focus on the difficult compound lifts in the beginning.  Find a good split that divides your workout over a week into an intelligent split (i.e. only legs on leg day, etc.).  Unless you are specifically trying to improve your cardio, you should only do enough to maintain your current level - and you can do that with very little.  If you ARE trying to improve your cardio at the same time, then be aware that you are potentially working at cross purposes.  It is more efficient to focus on one thing or the other.  If you want to build muscle, you have to add bunches of extra calories, and doing too much cardio will just eat into that.

In short, go find a good 5x5 strength program that incorporates the above lifts.  That is a fantastic way to get started, and I am very much speaking from experience.

One last piece of advice:  Have a goal or two that you want to reach.  A long term one (for example, my long term one is to look like one of the cast of 300), and a short term one (I am still working towards that damn 40kg per hand dumbell shoulder press).  It will help you focus and plan better, I have found.

GVT Lifting Day 3 - The Dreaded Leg Day

Three days later, and my quads are still stinging a bit.  At least I can walk straight now, which is more than I could say for yesterday.

The squats were a bitch.  Only 65kg on the bar, I was practically laughing at how simple they were for the first 3 or 4 sets.  By the 10th rep of the 10th set, I wanted to barf until death took me.  The squats practically melted my face off.  Much of this is simply because I am out of squatting condition.  Despite the pain, which honestly wasn't quite as bad as I was expecting, I will put on at least 5kg more next week.

But damn, my legs were wobbly afterwards.  I'll not even bother to discuss the leg curls and calf raises I followed up with, because they were trivial in comparison.  Hilariously, the gym I work out at decided to put five flights of stairs down to the changing room, and boy was that fun to negotiate when you are having an out-of-body experience.  And of course, every hot chick in the gym decides at that time to come up the stairs in the other direction, so I have to do my damnest to appear like someone didn't completely remove both my femurs.

Even still, Monday has rolled around again, so I'll be hitting chest and shoulders for the second time and looking forward to it.  Should be interesting to see if I can handle bumping up the weight from last week.

Maybe I didn't explain clearly, but that's a single leg day workout last week, those aren't all the exercises I'm doing all week. The other days are similarly focused and are, as such, completely different. Squats are mixed in there on leg days, we didn't do squats that week. We do bench & overhead presses, rows, pullups on mondays. I don't have the full list because it changes up every week and I didn't ever get it written. The roommate's coworker is kind of a meathead so he's got all the bases covered. We're also doing about 70% barbell/dumbell so I'm also not just using isolation machines.

I completely agree on the cardio, but since I'm working with others the only option is to either show up late (which I do sometimes) or sit and wait for them to be done. I haven't decided how I want to handle it, I'm still in the adjustment phase, as I'm only 3 weeks in. I'm not even really keeping track of the weight right now, once I get a good baseline I'll start setting goals.


Go Cyrrex! The first week is the worst.

I'm kinda pissed because this summer my normal outdoor chores didn't drop my little winter paunch (41 this year). First time that happened excepting a couple years when I was drinking heavy in the 90s. Compounded by not hiking this past summer (which I'm pretty upset about, but pre-marital bliss is important) and an old injury leading my doc to tell me to lay off the benchwork I would do in the past when the summer work didn't quite accomplish the whole task. I'm up about 15 lbs over where I normally am this time of year!

I might have to actually pay attention to diet and exercise soon, dernit. That or chop more wood! :) I think the Fiskars axe is actually slowing down my fat loss, because I do so much less work with the superior tool, the crappy maul I used to use was like wrestling a mule.

bleh, double post ftw.

Heh, I'm pretty experienced with lifting at this point, so my first week issues are not normal first week issues.  The pain is manageable.  The workout itself, however, is a motherfucker.  I quite literally want my mommy.  You know when you reach that last set on the bench where you just feel like you couldn't possibly do more?  Just do 5 more sets just like that, complete with mounting pain and weariness.  Then switch to shoulder presses and repeat.  Jesus H. Criminy.

Your clarification of the routine makes more sense.  Not total sense, mind you, just more. :grin:  Is that leg day or core day?

It still seems a bit scattershot to me, and if you are relatively new to strength training or bodybuilding (which are NOT the same thing) then it is probably too many exercises and not enough focus.  At least, if that single day routine is anything to judge by.  I'd be curious to hear whatever else meathead has you doing on other days, especially if you are trying to cram in a shitload of cardio on top of it.

What I said further above still holds true.  Best thing you can do early on is to find a good 5x5 program incorporating the above (and only the above) lifts.  Dead serious.  If you did one of those programs while your roomie and his co-worker did theirs, I guarantee that you would FLY past them.  If you are interested in giving it a go, just speak up...pretty easy to hook you up with a program tailored just for you.  You just need a power rack (safety bars), motivation and a willingness to eat.

I have to agree with Cyrrex, that schedule seems overly complex and involved. Unless you are a body builder type you really don't need to be doing that many different types of isolation lift. Squats alone could replace the first five exercises on your leg day. More sets of fewer exercises if better I find, if nothing else than for the reasont hat you often need a set or two to get your mind set and your form down, so if you only do a set or two you probably aren't through your warm-up stage and at the point where you are pushing yourself for benefit.


do you mean a muscle-up (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2Sr6FFdcII)?


Sorry for not replying to this sooner, I missed it somehow. My main issue with CrossFit is that it trys to take a jumble of ideas from many different fitness regimes, and throws them all together without any particular logic. The 'Workout of the Day' (WOD) is the prime example of this. For example today's WOD is:


The two prior to this are


and


If you follow this to the letter, you are doing intense exercise for sure, but it doesn't follow any particular direction other than towards ever-greater intensity. Other exercises which mix things like cleans and sprints, or chinups and boxjumps just all seem to me to be a bit arbitrary. Then there is the culture of doing everything to failure, and the Crossfit mascots "Pukey the Clown" and "Uncle Rhabdo" which do not emphasise health exercise in my mind.

My feeling isn't that CrossFit is ineffective, anyone doing the stuff CrossFit sugegsts, with the intensity encouraged will get fitter and stronger. However, I think you can achieve the same for less effort with more conventional training patterns; and if all you do is go to a crossfit gym and do snatches, squats and ring pull-ups you're not really doing CrossFit. Crossfit is the WODs, it is pushing yourself to breaking point, and those don't make tons of sense to me.

Thanks for replying. Quick follow up though:


Such as? What to you would be a conventional training pattern that gives comparable results?

(I should clarify that I'm asking because I'm interested in different viewpoints.)

Yes, that thing. I want to do it. More than once. It's called mantling in climbing, I couldn't find the 'real' name for it. As for the routine, I'm pretty much tagging along with what they're doing. When I get more comfortable, I'll probably take your advice and branch out into my own. I personally want to do more squats and especially learn how to deadlift; they hate them and won't do anything but hug the smith rack. I've got I think 4 sessions with a "personal trainer" (har) so I'll probably use that to get form down on stuff like that for myself.

You should get into your head that the smith rack is just another machine....because, well, it is just another machine.  Other than having a bar that you put individual weights on, it has otherwise nothing in common with free barbell exercises.  It doesn't recruit your muscle fibers in the same way at all.  Some people argue that they use them because they are safer, but the real truth is that they use them because, like all machines, it makes them feel stronger than the actually are...the exercises are easier and you can put more weight on!  Win!

Do go investigate the deads and the squats when you get more comfortable.  Those are the two best exercises you can do, period.  The reasons your friends hate them is because they are hard as shit, and the squats in particular are psychologically challenging as well - make sure you do those inside a rack with safety bars setup.  And don't forget to go low...thighs parallel to the ground is what you are aiming for.  9 out of 10 people squat wrong.  Look them up on youtube or something and make sure you understand the form.  Same for deadlifts, really.

Having spent about 3 months with work going crazy and not doing any exercise at all I'm getting back into running and lifting. I started out real low in the lifting but the numbers are starting to creep up again, I'm at least getting back to the point where I'm feeling somewhat worn out by the end of a session, my shoulder press numbers are pretty pathetic though. Doing my best to build them up a bit but they've always been very low. I'm not sure if it's technique or just me being wimpy about them but I find that set 3 or 22kg can leave me unable to finish, I literally can't get the bar up. Despite that I don't feel like it's muscle exhaustion or anything, it's like there's just one muscle group that's not pulling its weight. Like I said I suspect its primarily psychological but once I've done shedding a bit more fat I'm going to concentrate on eating a bit more and pushing myself harder with the lifts. The routine I'm following is one of the ones posted by SA goon Alfalfa that's a 4 day split 3 times a week. Lots of compound lifts and that sort of fun. My squat form still sucks although at least now I don't look like I'm performing good mornings, doing fairly light front squats at the moment in the hope that having the weight a bit forward will help stop me leaning too far forward for fear of falling over backwards.

You may just have an arm, or a specific muscle, that is weaker than the others.  Lots of work on the barbell will even that out to a degree, but I can tell you from my own experience that it may never be completely fixed.  Despite my best efforts, my right shoulder is noticeably stronger than my left.  The only reason I can't reach my mythical goal of the 40kg (per hand) dumbbell presses is because of my stupid ass left shoulder...it won't even let my put up 38kg, despite the fact that the right hand has no problem with complying.

Also, barbell presses are a bit awkward anyway, because you have to move your head out of the way.  Barbell is better for the Olympic moves, IMO...you might be happier trying seated dumbbell presses.

Haven't thought about that, I should start doing some kindling splitting with my left hand to even out the single-arm part of my 'workout'  :grin:

I spent last night sorting out my next 16 weeks worth of training but it'll probably be not so interesting to you guys as doesn't inolve much weights: three (occasionally four) run sessions a week, two cross-training sessions and one or two strength/conditioning sessions.

Typical week will be along the lines of:

Mon: Rest
Tue: X-training on bike (15-20 miles commute)
Wed: 7-8 mile run at tempo (normally with my club so will be on trails, at night)
Thu: X-training (tabata intervals on stationary bike/rowing machine) + strength/conditioning
Fri: fast interval sessions covering 3 - 4 miles in total (things like 12x400m, 3x1600m or 5x1km)
Sat: Rest (or occasional Long run for back-to-back training)
Sun: Long run (12-25 miles) at slightly slower than marathon pace.

Ideally I want to fit in a second str/con session but not sure when.

It's all building up to an ultra at the beginning of March (100 miles from London to Oxford along the Thames Path). I've got two 30 mile events in Jan & Feb (both on the day after a cross-country league match so good back-to-back sessions) so I'll be maxing out at 40-45 miles a week all told.

That's the plan. Sticking to it is another matter!  :grin:

Of course we're interested.  Though I'll admit my interested is primarily centered on wondering why any human being would choose to run on a regular basis.  I mean, is someone chasing you?  I was good at it back in the day (US Army, and I always had run-happy sergeants) and could probably get pretty good at it again...but damn I hate it.  Good for you, though.

GVT update:  Did my Monday Chest and Shoulder session a couple of days ago.  Increased weights as intened (7.5 kg up on the bench, 2kg total on the shoulder presses).  Was a bitch, especially the bench presses.  It's amazing how relatively little weight can kick your ass.  Last few sets were a major struggle.  Got every rep up, but the last ones were not looking pretty.  Will probably up the bench another 2.5kg next week and add another 2kg to the shoulders.  I have a feelling that might get me to fail a lift or two.

Today is pull day.  Still not sure I have the right mix of exercises here.  Just not sure if I am hitting my lower back enough.

Well, they're rarely chasing me because I'm normally at the back!  :awesome_for_real:

As for why I do it? Easy! This is where I run:

(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6189/6052992454_5279533c14.jpg)

(http://www.lakelandtrails.org/images/Keswick1001.jpg)


This is a gym:

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Q1V68XKHeFA/TblPkcbdGKI/AAAAAAAAAEI/6V_PAgWK98A/s1600/1.jpg)

 :why_so_serious:


(The first picture is one I took on a race at the end of July, at about 11am. The second picture I didn't take but was where I was at a few hours earlier at dawn. The race had started at 5pm the evening before. I pulled out later on though so didn't finish. Trying again next year. )

To be fair, the gym I used to work out (before I moved back to Denmark) was ginormous, and absolutely filled to the teeth with MILFs and extremely good looking college age girls.  Okay, some of them were probably high school age, but that didn't make me appreciate the scenery any less.   :pedobear:

My current gym...not so much.  Unless you are into hairy guys that are allergic to deodorant.

I don't love running, which is why the thought of upping my mileage into marathon levels makes me twitch (20-25 miles/week is about my limit).  That said, I'd go insane if I weren't running - there's something amazingly therapeutic about going out for an hour jog and just clearing your head.

Replace "running" with "going to the gym" and I feel the same way.  I'm addicted to it.

I'm with Cyrrex, I can't stand running, although once I hit 30 I'll be forcing myself into it. I do love my gym though, but it's a different feeling. I'm cycling about 7-8 miles every day (commute and bits) so I feel I get enough of a cardio stretch as it is. I'm also playing American Football again, so that gives me another outlet.

DraconianOne, this is also a gym  :why_so_serious:

(http://i.imgur.com/bZry3.jpg) (http://imgur.com/bZry3)


Shoulder press is a tricky exercise, there are quite a lot of variables in it, moreso than most other exercises. I assume you are doing it with the bar, not dumbbells. Are you standing or sitting? If you sit do you have a backrest? In front of your head or behind? Are you doing a full range of motion or partial? Do you use leg drive or not?

At the very bottom end of a shoulder press you are invoking your traps more than pretty much any other muscle in your shoulder, and your shoulder joint and elbow are in a very disadvantaged position, so you may be limited by those more than your deltoids. If you are using the bar behind your head you should try to pull your shoulderblades together by tensing your rhomboids and then lean slightly forward.

You may want to try some tricep work too, since they can be a limiting factor in shoulder press.

Sorry for double posting.


It depends on your goals I guess, and what you define as CrossFit. If you go to a gym and simply do sets of squats, deadlifts, rows, chins, cleans, snatches, bench or whatever you are not really doing CrossFit in my mind, you are merely exercising in a CrossFit gym. To be doing CrossFit you need to be doing the WoDs, doing exercises to failure and using a mixture of unrelated exercises ostensibly for the purpose of tiring you out. Your goal is to be an all-rounder, and so you do a bit of everything. If you want to be strong I think doing something like 5/3/1, or even 5x5 will give you more consistent results, and there is no reason why you cannot do running or cycling or swimming at the same time, independently of your gym routines. I don't see the benefit of trying to do it all at once

Here is a list of WODs (http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/faq.html#WOD0)

Many of these seem dangerously unsafe to me. Exercises such as Snatches, Cleans even Squats should not be done in high-rep, high-tempo routines. These are exercises which are very form dependent, and encouraging people to do them at speed seems to me to be a recipe for injury.

Examples:

Grace - 135lb C+J x 30 (to time)
Isabel - 135lb Snatch x 30 (to time)
Amanda - 9,7,5 x MuscleUps and Snatches (to time).

There is no clear explanation for these exercises other than trying to push your body to a limit. And while that is fine at times, encouraging overtraining on a regular basis is detrimental, whereas a more measured system might not seem as dramatic, but would achieve the same benefits.

My caveat is that I haven't really done enough CrossFit to be entirely objective. I stuck with it (as best I could) for about 2 months a while back, and while I saw some improvements, I also lost out in other areas, and felt like a wreck after most trainings. Now I am sticking with a more paced regime and I am still seeing improvement, but I can go put in a day's work after a workout, or go out with friends.

For the record, I agree with everything K9 is saying on Crossfit.  Is probably good as a general all-around fitness plan, but there are more efficient ways to accomplish those goals (either separately or at the same time).  And timing some of those lifts, including the Olympic ones?  That is a back injury waiting to happen.  You have to take your time with those lifts, because bad form could ruin you for years.

I feel like a broken record at this point, but people are terrible at goal setting when it comes to training.  If you have tangible goals, it is way easier to develop a plan to achieve it.  And you should also study the methods for what you are trying to accomplish, because that's how you learn important things, like how you are sabotaging your own progress.  And I guarantee that if you haven't studied the methods, there is a good chance you are sabotaging yourself somehow.  Seriously...goals, goals, goals.