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Title: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: SnakeCharmer on January 04, 2009, 09:53:54 PM
Otherwise known as "Looking for random internet partner(s) to undergo excruciating pain and misery with, as well as push each other to completion".

Possibly it was a not so subtle hint from my wife that I needed to get my flabby rear back into shape, but this was one of my Christmas gifts.  Possibly it was revenge for getting her a Dyson vacuum cleaner a couple years ago for Christmas.  In my defense, SHE WANTED THE DAMN THING!!  No, apparently, I still don't know women.

Will be starting next Monday Jan 12th.  I'm waiting on some workout gear that I ordered to arrive, so I have a week left of laziness.  If you can't afford it, you know where to find it.  It will take a while, but you'll get it.  Also, the documents are available also.  If you can't find the docs, I'll type up the workout schedule and email it to you.  The diet is a bit big to type up, so, there's not much I can do there.  Unfortunately, I just don't have time to do it otherwise I would.

Anyway, what is absolutely required:
Door chinup/pull up bar (resistance bands can be used in lieu of bar).  This bar (http://www.amazon.com/Maximum-Muscle-Doorway-Gym-Ultimate/dp/B001LA1JX0/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&s=sporting-goods&qid=1231126670&sr=1-11) or similar, these bands (http://www.amazon.com/Covered-Resistance-Exercise-Packages-include/dp/B001DC45IW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=sporting-goods&qid=1231126764&sr=1-1) or similar.
Dumb bells adjustable or up to 50 lbs each (resistance bands can be used in lieu of db's)
Solid chair that allows for your knees to obtain a 90 degree angle, and feet flat on the floor.  This will be used in weight exercises as well to assist you in pull ups (if needed).

Recommended:
Push up bars (http://www.amazon.com/DayBreak-Fitness-Push-Up-Bars/dp/B000LNF92K/ref=pd_bbs_12?ie=UTF8&s=sporting-goods&qid=1231126940&sr=8-12) (easier on hands, wrist and isolate the muscles better)
Yoga mat, bricks (http://www.amazon.com/Valeo-VA4491PU-Yoga-Kit/dp/B0007IS71Y/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=sporting-goods&qid=1231127041&sr=1-3) (mostly for comfort).  Will also be used in plyometrics.

Since receiving it, I've messed around with some of the vids.  Totally kicked my ass, but in a good way.  I didn't go 100 percent with it, as it was mostly just to see how the vids played out and get a feel for some of the yoga/plyo/kenpo moves, which is something I've never done before.  Fun, but definately hard.  He's a bit cheesy, but in a good way.  Does a good job of keeping you motivated.  All that said, I'd say if you can't honestly pass the initial fit test, don't do it.  If you have a history of back issues, I'd definately stay away.

If anyone is interested, I figure we can update here or PMs or whatever you feel most comfortable.  I'm 50/50 in posting before/after pictures of my ugly mug.  Nothing like constructive criticism at the outset from the peanut gallery to keep ya going  :drill:

/Jerry McGuire Who's coming with me!?!


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: schild on January 04, 2009, 09:57:36 PM
This is the thing they did for the Spartans in 300 right? I watched some of it. It's fucking scary. Much as I'd like to do it, my body is... afraid.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: SnakeCharmer on January 04, 2009, 10:00:27 PM
We talked about that once (I think) when you told me about your diet thing.  I don't know, to be honest. 

Wouldn't surprise me if it was.

[Edit] You could probably do it, just a modified version with less weight at the beginning/first time around.  I'm pretty confident you could find it if you wanted to, so that said, let me know and I'll send you the workout schedule/rotation.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: schild on January 04, 2009, 10:01:05 PM
We talked about that once (I think) when you told me about your diet thing.  I don't know, to be honest. 

Wouldn't surprise me if it was.
Your avatar needs a new hair style.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Azaroth on January 04, 2009, 10:16:08 PM
What.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Azaroth on January 04, 2009, 10:19:01 PM
This is the thing they did for the Spartans in 300 right? I watched some of it. It's fucking scary. Much as I'd like to do it, my body is... afraid.

The infamous "300 workout" was, to my knowledge, a timed gauntlet style workout that wasn't actually used on a daily basis or anything.

I'm also pretty sure that their nutritional coach strongly recommended "B12 shots".



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: SnakeCharmer on January 04, 2009, 10:30:15 PM
I think you missed the point about the Dyson, but that's neither here nor there...

The diet book is actually quite nice.  It gives you exactly what and how much you should eat and when during the regimine, as well as recipes.  The plan is to follow it as close as possible, but I entertain clients pretty regularly (or am treated by others in the biz) so that's going to be a true commitment test for me.  I don't drink much (if at all) anymore, so alcohol won't be an issue.  The only supplements I'll be using are what are recommended on the diet plan; which is really nothing more than a protein bar and shakes for mid meal snacks.

I'm lucky enough that I drop weight fairly fast, even at my age.  The problem is my own bad eating habits, as well as spending 10 hrs a day at a desk.  Most of which is work, some of which is gaming.

Really, really looking forward to it though.  More than anything, it's something I can do from home on my own time.  And it will be something I can do in the interim until I can get a decent home gym together in our new house, which is something I didn't have in our old house.  Going to a gym just isn't in the cards for me in that I value my family time, especially that time after I get off work and spend a couple hours with my son before he goes to sleep at 8 pm.  Morning times and after work is 'our' time, so a workout at home is the best option for me.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Azaroth on January 04, 2009, 10:45:09 PM
Well, I'm fairly quick to bitch about women.

It's good that it comes with a diet book, though.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: FatuousTwat on January 04, 2009, 11:20:22 PM
If you don't have a lot of time for family, could you have your wife join in, in a common area to be around your son as well (I don't know how old your son is)?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: SnakeCharmer on January 04, 2009, 11:21:36 PM
Heh.  He's two.  I don't think he's quite ready for the squat machine.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Azaroth on January 04, 2009, 11:22:34 PM
I love P90X.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: FatuousTwat on January 04, 2009, 11:25:54 PM
I didn't mean have him join in as well, just have him in the same area? I don't know how your family operates, so I don't know if this sounds crazy or not.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: SnakeCharmer on January 04, 2009, 11:34:43 PM
We do everything together, but jumping around and lifting weights probably isn't the best thing for him to be around.  He'll want to get in on the 'fun' and such.  After he saw me using the push up bars, bless his heart, he tried doing the same thing.  He's all about doing what daddy does, and I'm scared I might fall or drop something on him or something.  So, best thing for now, is to wait until he goes to bed.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: FatuousTwat on January 04, 2009, 11:51:08 PM
Makes sense.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: LK on January 05, 2009, 02:03:09 AM
Tried it for about 4 weeks. Eventually Wrath of the Lich King hit along with the Holidays and, well, that was it for P90X.

I'm going to go back to exercising Jan 5th but I'm going to just do simple stuff and not the fucking torture fest that was P90X.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Hindenburg on January 05, 2009, 04:20:16 AM
/Jerry McGuire Who's coming with me!?!

I'll do it. I'll be genuinely surprised if it works better than ps2+rpgs+bycicle.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: SnakeCharmer on January 05, 2009, 10:25:42 AM
I'm going to go back to exercising Jan 5th but I'm going to just do simple stuff and not the fucking torture fest that was P90X.

Pansy....DO IT!!  Or rather...BRING IT!!

I'll do it.

Do you need any of the workout information?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Hindenburg on January 05, 2009, 10:37:52 AM
Nope. Got everything.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Lantyssa on January 05, 2009, 10:55:37 AM
Possibly it was a not so subtle hint from my wife that I needed to get my flabby rear back into shape, but this was one of my Christmas gifts.  Possibly it was revenge for getting her a Dyson vacuum cleaner a couple years ago for Christmas.  In my defense, SHE WANTED THE DAMN THING!!  No, apparently, I still don't know women.
No matter how much she wants an appliance, don't get it as a Christmas/Birthday/Anniversary/Valentines gift.  Make it a weekend "Hey honey, let's go get the vacuum you've been wanting" trip.  Fiscally it costs more.  Emotionally you win.  And you don't get exercise equipment for Christmas.

Note: If your sweetheart is really into capentry, mechanics, or such then some things might be appropriate.  Don't count on it though.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 05, 2009, 11:01:22 AM
I already workout like a madman, but would be willing to try something new to change things up. 

1) Do you have a link that outlines the EXACT workout that you are doing? 

2) Do you have some metrics that you'd like to compare to motivate people?

3) I'm an old fucker, but I'd be willing to put my ability up against any of you youngins.  My bodyfat % has hit double digits for the first time in years and I'm pissed off enough by it to really hit this hard.

Oh... I'm sick of running in the rain and am looking for a good treadmill if anyone has any suggestions.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: SnakeCharmer on January 05, 2009, 11:04:58 AM
1)  No links, unfortunately.  However, it's not just 'do 2x12 curls', you actually have to go along with the vid at their pace.  The chest and back vid alternated between various forms of pushups to pull ups and back and forth all the way (rest one side, immediately work the other/alternating muscle groups).
2)  Not offhand, more than anything, it's Tony Horton barking at  you on screen  Scratch that.  Just re-read what you said.  Not really.  But open to suggestions?  It's a bit hard to compare gains (or loss as the case may be) since we're all different and starting at different points.  My gains/loses would be much higher than your since you're already in good shape?  But yeah, am open to suggestions.
3)  Old fucker vs youngins?  Hardly?  I'm on the bad side of 35, my friend.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Yoru on January 05, 2009, 12:19:27 PM
I do a fairly standard 5x5 resistance workout, personally. I've been going to my current gym regularly since September, which is more or less shortly after I got my shit in order after moving.

On resistance days:
  • Stretch
  • 1 km run @ 12-14 kph, minimum 5 minutes OR 5 minutes rowing (moderate pace)
  • THEN, in random order, though staggered so the upper-body exercises are spaced out by lower-body ones:
  • 5x5 Squats
  • 5x5 Deadlift
  • 5x5 Benchpress (bar or dumbbell, varies)
  • 3x8 pullups, aiming for 3x10 soon
  • 5x5 military/overhead press (bar or dumbbell)
  • 5x5 Bent-over Row (bar or dumbbell)
  • Finally, a cooldown stretch

Sometimes I'll do a couple minute-long straight-arm hangs before the cooldown stretch to improve my rock climbing grip endurance.

Then on cardio days I'll one out of a number of different things:

* Crazy-ass intervals on a bike for minimum 20 minutes (maybe beyond, until exhaustion). Wouldn't call them high-intensity but I'm usually wiped after 15-20 minutes of these. I do these on a 1-3 split: 15 seconds high speed, 45 seconds moderate speed.

* 5 kilometer run, with a strategy of jogging the first quarter-KM around 10.5-11 kph and then running the other three-quarters KM around 12.5-13 kph. My best so far is 24m40s.

* 30 minute run, pushing speed up as high as possible for as long as possible (usually a few minutes at 14-15 kph), then dropping down to a 30sec walk, then back up to a 1minute jog around 10kph.

* 15 minute run, as close to flat-out as possible, followed by a 5 minute rest, followed by 15 minutes of rowing.

I switch this up so much because Just Running or Just Biking is just too boring. I don't have an iPod or anything, so I tend to just stare into the darkness outside the windows and get absorbed into my own thoughts.

On the days where I don't get rides (most of them), these are bookended by 1.5km walks to/from the gym, which make for nice warmups/cooldowns. I end up doing resistance 3 times a week, cardio twice a week, rock climbing once a week, and then full rest for the final day, with the corollary that I never do resistance or cardio two days in a row.

I do it mostly because it keeps me sane, and because it's a fun challenge. It's a pretty sweet rush whenever I crank up one of my weights or break a 5K time record.

And, yes, I'm a young fucker. :-)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 05, 2009, 12:19:48 PM
1)  No links, unfortunately.  However, it's not just 'do 2x12 curls', you actually have to go along with the vid at their pace.  The chest and back vid alternated between various forms of pushups to pull ups and back and forth all the way (rest one side, immediately work the other/alternating muscle groups).

Bah... I hate proproetary workouts.  There's nothing revolutionary out there, just new versions of old stuff.  I guess I'll just stick with going to the free weight room 5 days a week.  

If you still want to keep in touch, I'll be happy to compare my methods with yours to help us both keep motivated.  




Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 05, 2009, 12:22:34 PM
I switch this up so much because Just Running or Just Biking is just too boring. I don't have an iPod or anything, so I tend to just stare into the darkness outside the windows and get absorbed into my own thoughts.

Buy an iPod shuffle (http://www.apple.com/ipodshuffle/).  It's small and holds a ton of music.  Best workout investment I've ever made.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Hindenburg on January 05, 2009, 12:27:02 PM
or just buy any non-apple mp3 player. It's smaller, cheaper, and 1gig is more than enough. Plus, you don't have to mess with that accursed iTunes thingie.

Young one here. Current workout is nonexistant. Has been for the last 6 months. 20% body fat. I'll haxx if my muscles stay sore for more than 24 hours.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 05, 2009, 12:30:37 PM
I'll haxx if my muscles stay sore for more than 24 hours.

You'll have muscle soreness for the first two weeks and then find that it goes away.  Your body is a pretty amazing machine and will adapt to whatever torture you put it through.  The key is to make sure that you drink enough water and have a good diet.  Of course, proper sleep is a must as well.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Viin on January 05, 2009, 12:33:25 PM
Oh... I'm sick of running in the rain and am looking for a good treadmill if anyone has any suggestions.

My wife picked up a treadmill from a gym that was upgrading, it's real heavy duty and has lasted years (6 now). It requires 220v though, so might require some additional electrical work to put one in. After seeing the cheap ass crap they charge thousands for at the sporting goods store, this is the way to go.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Hindenburg on January 05, 2009, 12:36:09 PM
You'll have muscle soreness for the first two weeks and then find that it goes away. 
Haha, no.
Done this starting again after a period of inactivity thing several times before. The secret to avoiding (or greatly diminishing) muscle soreness lies in chemistry. Good diet, psh, nonsense.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 05, 2009, 12:40:05 PM
Haha, no.
Done this starting again after a period of inactivity thing several times before. The secret to avoiding (or greatly diminishing) muscle soreness lies in chemistry. Good diet, psh, nonsense.

Well... I am a phd medicinal chemist that went to med school.  I may know a thing or two that could help.   :grin:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Hindenburg on January 05, 2009, 12:43:34 PM
I knew it.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: SnakeCharmer on January 05, 2009, 12:45:09 PM
Bah... I hate proproetary workouts.  There's nothing revolutionary out there, just new versions of old stuff.  I guess I'll just stick with going to the free weight room 5 days a week.  

If you still want to keep in touch, I'll be happy to compare my methods with yours to help us both keep motivated.  

It's actually a good bit of fun.  As I mentioned, I started messing around with it to get familiar with it, also to help alleviate some of the soreness that will inevitably hit me once I go full throttle.  The vids are 52ish minutes long; you're never stopping for never more than a minute.  Your heartrate gets up and stays there.

But yeah, let's definately keep up.  

The secret to avoiding (or greatly diminishing) muscle soreness lies in chemistry.

Well... I am a phd medicinal chemist that went to med school.  I may know a thing or two that could help.   :grin:

Puff puff give.  What are you taking?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 05, 2009, 12:58:27 PM
Since I love lists:

1) The only supplements I've ever used with regularity are a multi-vitamin. I do this to ensure that I have proper B vitamin intake per day.  It's amazing how vital B vitamins are for proper biochemical function. Also, make sure that your vitamin E, A, and iron don't exceed 100% daily.  Too much iron + vitamin C make a powerful pro-oxidant combination... which is bad. Similarly, your liver stores excess fat soluble (ADEK) vitamins... also bad. 

2) Water.  This and milk are the only liquids I consume with regularity though I do still have a diet coke fettish.  Never drink your fruits and vegetables, you miss all the good stuff. 

3) I eat a protein bar or drink a protein shake 20-30 minutes before each workout to ensure that I have high serum protein levels during the workout. 

4) Try your best to only eat high quality, whole grain carbs.  Processed food is the devil. Similarly go for high protein, low fat proteins.  I keep my daily food intake to about 1800 calories and less than 30g of fat.  I also eat 5-6 small meals a day to keep the furnace burning.

5) Body for Life (http://www.amazon.com/Body-Life-Mental-Physical-Strength/dp/0060193395) is the best fitness manual I've found.  Some great suggestions for workouts and diet. 

6) Build muscle to increase basal metabolic rate.  At least 3 workouts per week should increase muscle mass.

7) Do aerobic activity to promote cardiovascular health. Again, at least 3 x 20-30 mins per week. 

8) Modify your routine every 8-10 weeks.  Your body will adjust to torture, so you need to keep it guessing for maximal results.

Hope this helps.



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: SnakeCharmer on January 05, 2009, 01:01:53 PM
Good info, thanks.  I was mostly curious as to what you're using/taking for soreness.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 05, 2009, 01:05:34 PM
Good info, thanks.  I was mostly curious as to what you're using/taking for soreness.

I really don't have much soreness unless I work anaerobically for extended periods (post glucose depletion).  In those first few weeks of a new workout regiment or times where I'm trying to up my max I tend to use naproxen (trade name: aleve) if I feel I really need something to get past the soreness due to inflammation. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Yoru on January 05, 2009, 04:48:03 PM
3) I eat a protein bar or drink a protein shake 20-30 minutes before each workout to ensure that I have high serum protein levels during the workout.

It's probably not available unless you live in the Northeast US, but up here in Iceland we have what is probably some of the best workout food ever. It's called skyr, and it's basically a type of cheese made from skim milk. It has the consistency of yogurt and the following nutrition per 100g:

71 kcals
13.5g protein
3.3g carbohydrates
0.5g fat
0.28mg (18% recommended daily intake) Vitamin B2
103mg (13% recommended daily intake) calcium
175mg (22% recommended daily intake) phosphorus

A 500g tub of this stuff is roughly $1-$1.50 up here. I chow down on a full 500g tub after each workout for a nice 60+ grams of whole animal protein. There's flavored varieties, but those mostly just add a whole shitton of sugar and some fruit or vanilla extract.

I've heard there's a US brand that's sold at some Whole Foods and similar hippie stores, so it might be much pricier over there.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Signe on January 05, 2009, 05:29:47 PM
I don 't mind appliances for any occasion.  I still get misty-eyed thinking about the day Righ gave me my Dyson.  I love it.  Lots.  Now he's bought me a nice computer.  Is that an appliance?  Anyway - it's nice.  Maybe for Easter he'll buy me an egg cooker and a bunny.  I'd love a bunny.  Hopefully my giant ginger pussy won't eat it.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Hindenburg on January 05, 2009, 06:54:46 PM
It's called skyr, and it's basically a type of cheese made from skim milk. It has the consistency of yogurt and the following nutrition per 100g:

The carbs and protein account for 20g. What's the other 80?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: schild on January 05, 2009, 06:58:09 PM
Quote
I've heard there's a US brand that's sold at some Whole Foods and similar hippie stores, so it might be much pricier over there.

And it tastes like shit. But I haven't seen many travel channels praise Iceland for good tasting food.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Signe on January 05, 2009, 07:26:08 PM
Cod!  That's what they eat in Iceland.  Do they eat anything else?  Dunno but I could live on cod.  I love cod.  God, I can't stop saying cod. 

Cod.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Murgos on January 05, 2009, 07:55:18 PM
It's called skyr, and it's basically a type of cheese made from skim milk. It has the consistency of yogurt and the following nutrition per 100g:

The carbs and protein account for 20g. What's the other 80?

It sounds very similar to cottage cheese but with yogurt cultures.  Non-fat cottage cheese has very similar proportions of protein to fat and carbs.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Yoru on January 05, 2009, 08:47:41 PM
It's called skyr, and it's basically a type of cheese made from skim milk. It has the consistency of yogurt and the following nutrition per 100g:

The carbs and protein account for 20g. What's the other 80?

Water. It's goopy, like yogurt.

It's called skyr, and it's basically a type of cheese made from skim milk. It has the consistency of yogurt and the following nutrition per 100g:

The carbs and protein account for 20g. What's the other 80?

It sounds very similar to cottage cheese but with yogurt cultures.  Non-fat cottage cheese has very similar proportions of protein to fat and carbs.

Kinda tastes like that, but milder and smoother. It's actually really good if you blend in some fruit or (my favorite) a drop of 100% pure maple syrup; the flavor of the skyr itself is pretty light, so it tends to get mostly subsumed by whatever you put in it.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Ragnoros on January 06, 2009, 01:30:25 AM
I am a phd medicinal chemist that went to med school.  I may know a thing or two that could help.   :grin:

For real? Of have I fallen into the sarchasm?

"Body for Life" I could use a good fitness book. However a google search on the author shows he acquired his reputation and fortune writing a magazine about steroids use. Which raises doubt in my mind.

I had a third thing, but I forgot.




Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 06, 2009, 08:36:09 AM
For real? Of have I fallen into the sarchasm?

Sadly, yes.  Too many years in school for my pathetic paycheck.

As for Body for life, I like it because it greatly simplifies the workout.  3 days of weights, 3 days of aerobic training, and a solid food guide.  If you want to save $20, you can easily find all the same information online.  www.bodybuilding.com has some useful information and also some cheap protein powder and bars. 

I pretty much summarized the book in my points, but omitted the specifics of the workouts and the nutrition guide. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Hindenburg on January 06, 2009, 02:32:47 PM
Got everything ready and a-waiting. HURRY.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: SnakeCharmer on January 06, 2009, 03:27:16 PM
Waiting on the pull up bar, which should be here today or tomorrow.  Otherwise, I'm ready to go.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 06, 2009, 03:29:59 PM
Target and Amazon are selling the Iron Gym (http://www.amazon.com/Iron-Gym-Total-Upper-Workout/dp/B001EJMS6K) pullup bars pretty cheap.  I bought one a few weeks back and use it daily.  It's been pretty stable and a nice way to work lats, shoulders, and biceps a bit more after a run.  I paid like $20 for one and I'm pretty happy with it.  I made some elbow straps and also use it for extra stomach work.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on January 06, 2009, 04:57:41 PM
Holy crap, Nebu. What are you, Bruce Lee? Complaining about double digits..

I've slimmed down quite a bit recently, and I'm still in "double digits" (at 11.8%).


I've looked into the P90X thing before, but I don't really want to bulk up. I probably haven't been in as good of shape since I was 19 or 20 or so (back in highschool, I was a damn preying mantis.. after school, I packed on a few pounds.. but then it went out of control for awhile.. then sort of average.. and now back where I am now).


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 06, 2009, 09:14:35 PM
Holy crap, Nebu. What are you, Bruce Lee? Complaining about double digits..

I've slimmed down quite a bit recently, and I'm still in "double digits" (at 11.8%).

Up until I hit 38, I was 6', 205 lbs and about 6-8% body fat.  Chicks dug the washboard. 

Now that I'm into my 40's, I lift 5 days a week  (3 days upper body splits, 2 days legs/abs), run 5 days (mixed mileage and fartlek training), ride my stationary bike 5 days (not always the same days), and play basketball 3 days a week.  I just can't seem to get below about 12% anymore.  It's pissing me off.  I think I may be closer to 14% right now and I'm cutting hard over the next 6 weeks to see what will happen. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on January 06, 2009, 10:00:59 PM
So all that fitness, and you're a scientist.. Does your name happen to be Gordon Freeman by any chance? Haha

[edit] I'm scrawny in comparison (6'4" and a ghastly 175 now.).. I could probably benefit from something like this and get to 200 (in a proper way), but honestly, I'm happy the way I am now. If nobody likes it, they can go fuck themselves -- in the end, that's the real key to fitness right there  :-P.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 07, 2009, 10:21:26 AM
I'm happy the way I am now. If nobody likes it, they can go fuck themselves -- in the end, that's the real key to fitness right there  :-P.

That's 100% correct.  I workout because I like the feel of a tight body.  Vanity helps in those times when I don't want to run, but it's hardly my primary motivation.  With my luck, I'll still die from a heart attack at 50. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: SnakeCharmer on January 07, 2009, 11:24:49 AM
5'10" and 225 right now.  Though I'm lucky to have the frame to carry it.  Anything below 180, and I look all kinds of funky.  My ears poke out and the nickname 'Radar' comes to mind.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 07, 2009, 11:38:08 AM
Funny anecdote: When I was at 6% body fat, my GP told me that I was 25 pounds overweight during a physical.  I laughed and asked him why.  He stated that, according to a BMI chart, I should weigh 175 - 180 for being 6' tall. 

I got a new physician the next day. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Soln on January 07, 2009, 12:03:33 PM
BMI has also seemed a crock to me, but is still there and going strong as a concept.  Cripes.

So, are we "fat blogging" or not?  I'll join in but I don't want to spend any coin on this offering (got my own gear).


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Azaroth on January 07, 2009, 12:08:51 PM
Funny anecdote: When I was at 6% body fat, my GP told me that I was 25 pounds overweight during a physical.  I laughed and asked him why.  He stated that, according to a BMI chart, I should weigh 175 - 180 for being 6' tall. 

I got a new physician the next day. 

Wow.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on January 07, 2009, 07:33:31 PM
I'm happy the way I am now. If nobody likes it, they can go fuck themselves -- in the end, that's the real key to fitness right there  :-P.

That's 100% correct.  I workout because I like the feel of a tight body.  Vanity helps in those times when I don't want to run, but it's hardly my primary motivation.  With my luck, I'll still die from a heart attack at 50. 

By the way, I didn't mean any offense by that. I just mean we should all do what makes us happy in the end. It's madness worrying about what other people think.

I suppose you got that though. :-)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 08, 2009, 11:38:35 AM
By the way, I didn't mean any offense by that. I just mean we should all do what makes us happy in the end. It's madness worrying about what other people think.

I suppose you got that though. :-)

No offense taken.  I was agreeing with you that the whole point of working out beside the health benefits is to make yourself happy.  Fuck what others think!


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Draegan on January 08, 2009, 02:19:04 PM
I always put on weight over the winter and go back to the gym after the Superbowl.  Then I work out and diet, drop the weight then I end up hurting my knee/elbow AGAIN and then slack off for the summer.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 08, 2009, 02:21:58 PM
I am starting to hate the new year.

Every January, at whatever university I happen to be faculty at, it's the same story: the first 3 weeks that school is back in session the gym is PACKED with idiots on their new year's resolution.  By week 4, they've all mysteriously vanished after they realize it takes dedication and commitment.  I really hate the gym in January!


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Draegan on January 08, 2009, 03:16:26 PM
Hence going back after the superbowl.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Hindenburg on January 11, 2009, 02:54:20 PM
Otherwise, I'm ready to go.

(http://www.loosetooth.com/Numo/pics/numo080107closeup.jpg)
Really?

Starting monday.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: SnakeCharmer on January 11, 2009, 03:09:45 PM
Yup yup.  Good to go. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 11, 2009, 03:43:13 PM
Did some reading on this program and it looks like you guys are in for a great workout.  Best of luck to everyone involved.  I'm going to be doing it the usual way in the gym and on the road. 

I hope that you post some updates.  I'd like to hear your reactions monthly.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: SnakeCharmer on January 11, 2009, 04:05:56 PM
That's the plan (monthly update, or if something goes awry (injury, whatever)).

I'm actually planning on taking a daily picture wearing the same thing from the same distance everytime and putting it together in day 1 to day 90 montage video or something.  Will be interesting to see a 90 day transformation in a 30 second spot.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Hindenburg on January 11, 2009, 04:39:29 PM
I'm actually planning on taking a daily picture wearing the same thing

They recommend half naked. Right Said, Fred.  :grin:

Thinking about weekly updates. We'll see.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Margalis on January 11, 2009, 06:02:28 PM
The key to any excersize program is just doing it.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: SnakeCharmer on January 11, 2009, 07:18:13 PM
I'm actually planning on taking a daily picture wearing the same thing

They recommend half naked. Right Said, Fred.  :grin:

Thinking about weekly updates. We'll see.

Haha.  I should clarify I wasn't going to post a daily picture here.  Maybe a start and end when it's all said and done.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Margalis on January 11, 2009, 09:49:42 PM
Post a picture of the Stay Puft Marhsmallow Man followed by a picture of 80s governator.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on January 12, 2009, 01:56:53 PM
Up until I hit 38, I was 6', 205 lbs and about 6-8% body fat.  Chicks dug the washboard. 

Now that I'm into my 40's, I lift 5 days a week  (3 days upper body splits, 2 days legs/abs), run 5 days (mixed mileage and fartlek training), ride my stationary bike 5 days (not always the same days), and play basketball 3 days a week.  I just can't seem to get below about 12% anymore.  It's pissing me off.  I think I may be closer to 14% right now and I'm cutting hard over the next 6 weeks to see what will happen. 

What's your view on supplements like CLA?

I am starting to hate the new year.

Every January, at whatever university I happen to be faculty at, it's the same story: the first 3 weeks that school is back in session the gym is PACKED with idiots on their new year's resolution.  By week 4, they've all mysteriously vanished after they realize it takes dedication and commitment.  I really hate the gym in January!

This too.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: schild on January 12, 2009, 03:13:14 PM
Post a picture of the Stay Puft Marhsmallow Man followed by a picture of 80s governator.

(http://dl-client.getdropbox.com/u/39720/celebrities/arnold%20schwarzenegger/1186376620089.jpg) (http://dl-client.getdropbox.com/u/39720/celebrities/arnold%20schwarzenegger/staypuft_marshmallow_man.jpg)

am i doin it rite?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 12, 2009, 03:55:07 PM
What's your view on supplements like CLA?

Snake oil.  Eat right and you won't need any supplements.  If you are a picky eater or can't afford to eat right, a multivitamin will be more than sufficient assuming you are getting the proper amount and proportion of fat/carb/protein.   

If you want to discuss the merits of any particular supplement, I'll be happy to go into biochemical detail.  I just ask that you start a new thread so as not to derail this one.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: SnakeCharmer on January 12, 2009, 09:27:59 PM
Just got done with disk 1 (chest/back, ab ripper x).  Holy cow I'm whipped.  It is unreal how much atrophy my abs have suffered from sitting at a desk for far too long.

That said, the good:
Managed to keep up better than I thought I would.
Did the exercises at my own pace, but didn't stop unless they stopped

The bad:
I've got a looong ways to go, but am optimistic and looking forward to it.  So I guess that's a good as well.

The ugly:
The pre-fight measurements:  Weight 222, Chest 46", Waist (measure around the belly button) 42", Hips 43", R Thigh 23", L Thigh 22.5", R Arm (middle of bicep) 15.5", L Arm 15.0", Neck 18.5"

And just in case you don't want to see fat assed middle aged white guy



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on January 13, 2009, 11:46:04 AM
Good luck man. No retreat, no surrender!  :grin:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 13, 2009, 03:52:52 PM
Well done.

Don't give up.  There will be times that you want to. 

Best tip I can give for the food part of the program: if you start feeling hungry, drink a glass of water.  Early on the body sometimes confuses thirst impulses for hunger. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: SnakeCharmer on January 13, 2009, 05:17:25 PM
Many thanks.

I read that somewhere a good while ago (thirst = hunger sensation).  That's pretty much what I've made up my mind to do.  I'm following the diet as closely as possible, so hoping for good results. 

I don't expect to go from fat ass to Mens Health cover ready, though.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Hindenburg on January 13, 2009, 07:55:18 PM
Measurements in non heathen systems:
78kg, 184cm
Chest 104cm, Waist 92, Hips 94, RT 50, LT 49, RA 36, LA 35

Day 1

"Push ups?  :oh_i_see: 25. Bah"
"Oh, wide chin ups, that should be easy" *does 12* yup. easy.
"Some other kind of push ups? HAHA. ...and 5, 6..............7.....................fuck"
"Fuck."
"Fuck."
"Shit."
"DIAMOND PUSH UPS?  :ye_gods:
and repeat, only with more swearing and sweating.
Ab Ripper was fun. Got to that hand moving ab thing by the end, had never seen it before, Maxie twist or something. That was a quick "oh god kill me quick" thing.

Half naked pics with 13 year old shorts coming tomorrow.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: SnakeCharmer on January 13, 2009, 10:35:48 PM
Haha, nice bro.  Keep it up and good luck!

On a side note, the diet has made me, well, slightly gassy.  So much so the dog looks at me occasionally with a face of 'Dont EVEN think about blaming that on me"


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nightshade on January 13, 2009, 10:38:07 PM
I've had the privilege of being a Personal Trainer for the past few years.  If you need any advice, I'd be more than happy to help you on your quest to shape up!

- Night


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Hindenburg on January 14, 2009, 07:18:39 AM
Heh. Usually it takes at  least 24 hours for me to start feeling muscle soreness after a workout.
Been 12 hours now and my triceps are completely shot  :awesome_for_real:
Plyo today should be fun   :heart:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Yoru on January 14, 2009, 07:26:53 AM
Delayed-onset muscle soreness is bad news, after the initial breaking-in period at least.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on January 14, 2009, 07:34:03 AM
Triceps are some of the most neglected muscles, I think.. Would be natural to feel some pain there early on.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 14, 2009, 12:02:04 PM
I thought THIS (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/tiffany_forni.htm) story might motivate you.  Pretty amazing transformation.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: bhodi on January 14, 2009, 12:04:25 PM
Screw you guys, and your crazy workouts, I flashed my first 5.11 last night :)

I picked up that detachable pullup bar from last page; it was $40 and so far I really like it. A few pullups on the way to the bathroom a few times a day, plus doing stuff on my offdays should be interesting to see. Yes, it's not a real workout, I realize that. Better than nothing! :)

Tell me more about not drinking your fruits and veggies. I assume this excludes smoothies? I'm pretty addicted to smoothies, especially fruit smoothies. My favorite is strawberry banana; 1 cup lowfat strawberry yogurt, 1 banana, 6 strawberries and a cup of apple juice. Blend with ice and enjoy. No, it's not SUPER healthy with all that sugar but it beats the hell out of soda. I haven't found a good vegetable smoothie that I like yet; I don't care overmuch for tomatoes but I do like and will drink carrot juice.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 14, 2009, 12:10:27 PM
Tell me more about not drinking your fruits and veggies. I assume this excludes smoothies? I'm pretty addicted to smoothies, especially fruit smoothies. My favorite is strawberry banana; 1 cup lowfat strawberry yogurt, 1 banana, 6 strawberries and a cup of apple juice. Blend with ice and enjoy. No, it's not SUPER healthy with all that sugar but it beats the hell out of soda. I haven't found a good vegetable smoothie that I like yet; I don't care overmuch for tomatoes but I do like and will drink carrot juice.

It's fine as an alternative but not ideal.  Considering your use as an alternative, I'd say it's an improvement in diet and something I'd support.

Now, if you wanted to know the best way to eat fruits/veggies, I'd say that eating it as it occurs naturally is far superior for a variety of reasons.  It's a relative thing. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on January 14, 2009, 12:46:59 PM
If you don't really like veggies, just chow them down with some dip. I'd sure as hell prefer that before a veggie drink.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: SnakeCharmer on January 14, 2009, 12:53:37 PM
The problem with 'drinking' your food, is that humans have an innate desire to chew things.  I can imagine that's true, and after a while it would be a bit, I dunno...weird.

There's also theory that food that is chewed is harder to digest than food that is 'drank', thus more calories are expended.  Or something.  Don't necessary buy that, but there ya go.

I generally stick to water, V8 with loads of pepper and tabasco, and OJ that's been watered down by about 50 percent.  Not drinking southern style sweet tea is KILLING me, however.

Edit:  How cow at that girl in Nebu's link.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on January 14, 2009, 12:58:15 PM
Wow, that's ridiculous. I mean, I prefer chewing veggies, but I doubt that makes much of a difference in calorie burning. That's the kind of maniacal shit I'd expect from OCD fitness types though, who measure things to a T. You're only burning like 15 calories in a minute, going at a steady pace on a cycle. I would think that "chewing" food is extremely negligible.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: SnakeCharmer on January 14, 2009, 01:02:59 PM
The same thing was said about Tabasco in foods.  Hot foods cause the body to heat up and sweat, expending more calories.  That's not why I do it, I like the taste of spicy tomato juice / bloody mary mix.

But yeah, there's some really whacked out weird stuff out there.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Yoru on January 14, 2009, 01:14:15 PM
Screw you guys, and your crazy workouts, I flashed my first 5.11 last night :)

Since you have a pullup bar at home, you might want to do some straight-arm hangs during the day as well. I do them after my workouts, more or less randomly. Just grab the bar and hang with your arms almost fully straight (not locked, but also not really flexing the arms/shoulders), try to hold it for a minute.

If you can do that no problem, try doing it with just one arm. I also vary it by sometimes just gripping with fingertips, sometimes with the first joint, second joint, etc.

Since I can only get out to the climbing gym once or twice a week up here, these are really necessary to keep my grip and forearm endurance up. Also, my gym only has bouldering - there's no tall walls up here. Outdoor climbing is great, but only possible a few months out of the year.

Grats on the 5.11 by the way; that's roughly the level I was at before I moved and ceased being able to do anything taller than bouldering frequently. It only gets harder and more awesome from there.

Are you leading yet?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nightshade on January 14, 2009, 01:15:32 PM
Screw you guys, and your crazy workouts, I flashed my first 5.11 last night :)

I picked up that detachable pullup bar from last page; it was $40 and so far I really like it. A few pullups on the way to the bathroom a few times a day, plus doing stuff on my offdays should be interesting to see. Yes, it's not a real workout, I realize that. Better than nothing! :)

Tell me more about not drinking your fruits and veggies. I assume this excludes smoothies? I'm pretty addicted to smoothies, especially fruit smoothies. My favorite is strawberry banana; 1 cup lowfat strawberry yogurt, 1 banana, 6 strawberries and a cup of apple juice. Blend with ice and enjoy. No, it's not SUPER healthy with all that sugar but it beats the hell out of soda. I haven't found a good vegetable smoothie that I like yet; I don't care overmuch for tomatoes but I do like and will drink carrot juice.

I'd say kill the apple juice, it should be sweet enough with the other fruits, and you'll be cutting a lot of sugar out of that drink.  There is no problem about juicing your fruits and vegetables, just don't drink V8.  :P


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: bhodi on January 14, 2009, 01:26:00 PM
Well, it's more about trying to pack the calories in. They aren't the best calories, but they are better than nothing. I have trouble eating a lot - fast metabolism + small stomach. So whenever I eat at meals I try and drink something with calories. I have read I can replace the apple juice and the yogurt with 2% milk, which I'll probably try this week. I need to gain weight in the worst way and it's a pain just to maintain for me much less actually gain. I've stepped up my workouts recently and have started doing some focused exercises in addition to my regular tri-weekly climbs (which aren't really workouts, but wishful thinking makes them such).

What I really lack is a good way of doing vegetables. I'm pretty limited since I don't cook and I tend to eat fast food for probably 4 meals a week (total - either for lunch or dinner one day) which I know doesn't help. I do it pretty much for convienience. I do try to get fairly healthy stuff, though, generally grilled chicken or a salad - but all the meals generally come with fries and there are no vegetables to be found anywhere (considering I dislike tomato). I'll snack on fruit easily enough but veggies other than cucumber just aren't appetizing raw.

Yoru: yep, I'm doing the hangs as well randomly. All the standard climbing stuff. I passed my lead climb test a few weeks ago, but I'm not comfortable leading on anything harder than a 5.9 - it's too stressful. I thought I had cracked my fear of heights (one of the reasons I started climbing) but it came back with a vengeance with no rope above you and knowing there's 10+ feet of rope in the system when you go to clip, and that you could take a fall, a real fall, just messes with my head.

Oh, I've also discovered the best thing, ever. You never forget to take your multivitamins when they are...
(http://www.filedump.net/dumped/img01861231961774.jpg)
Gummy Vites!


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Yoru on January 14, 2009, 02:01:40 PM
Yoru: yep, I'm doing the hangs as well randomly. All the standard climbing stuff. I passed my lead climb test a few weeks ago, but I'm not comfortable leading on anything harder than a 5.9 - it's too stressful. I thought I had cracked my fear of heights (one of the reasons I started climbing) but it came back with a vengeance with no rope above you and knowing there's 10+ feet of rope in the system when you go to clip, and that you could take a fall, a real fall, just messes with my head.

Nice man. Leading is pretty much where it's at. It opens up a lot of stuff outdoors, and at my old gym there were a full two walls that were lead-only with some real interesting features and technical stuff.

Those ropeless jitters get better, but not by a whole lot. Maybe once you've been doing it a few years; I know I'm not at that point. I think I worked up the courage to lead a 5.11a once, but it was one I had top-roped over a dozen times and knew by heart.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on January 14, 2009, 02:03:04 PM
High calorie drinks eh? Can't gain weight? First off, drink a protein shake in the morning. Don't do shit with it. Afterwards, hit Starbucks and get anything with White Chocolate in it. For lunch and dinner, go to Burger King. Chocolate Ice Cream Shake (950 cal). Always have Big Gulps around throughout the day (600 cal). After work, get drunk on Pina Coladas.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: bhodi on January 14, 2009, 02:05:37 PM
High calorie drinks eh? Can't gain weight? First off, drink a protein shake in the morning. Don't do shit with it. Afterwards, hit Starbucks and get anything with White Chocolate in it. For lunch and dinner, go to Burger King. Chocolate Ice Cream Shake (950 cal). Always have Big Gulps around throughout the day (600 cal). After work, get drunk on Pina Coladas.
I tried to cut BACK my sugar intake! Unsweetened iced tea instead of soda; black coffee, and I don't generally drink more than a glass or two of wine a week. I'm pretty sure I'd just develop a belly if I ate like that, skinny or no.

Yeah, leading routes are definitely a lot more interesting - there are a ton of overhangs, caves, and that's actually one reason I'm focusing more on workouts - I've got good balance and I'm skinny so vertical faces with pinches are my strongest point; anywhere I can keep my weight on my feet. Overhangs are my weakest.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on January 14, 2009, 02:16:15 PM
High calorie drinks eh? Can't gain weight? First off, drink a protein shake in the morning. Don't do shit with it. Afterwards, hit Starbucks and get anything with White Chocolate in it. For lunch and dinner, go to Burger King. Chocolate Ice Cream Shake (950 cal). Always have Big Gulps around throughout the day (600 cal). After work, get drunk on Pina Coladas.
I tried to cut BACK my sugar intake! Unsweetened iced tea instead of soda; black coffee, and I don't generally drink more than a glass or two of wine a week. I'm pretty sure I'd just develop a belly if I ate like that, skinny or no.

Heh. Well besides what you're drinking, protein shakes (at least the good ones) are fairly low on fat and sugar, but high in protein and calories too. Cytogainer is a 600 calorie drink, but with 5g of sugar (and something like 50g of protein?). Of course, it's not just meant to be drunk.. You'd probably develop something like a sugar belly if you didn't utiilize it.. but it's a godsend for skinny guys like you and I (note, I don't bother with it myself). I don't know what to tell you as far as things to get on-the-go, in a restaurant (besides tea, water, and coffee like what you're doing). Even the lemonade will kill ya.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nightshade on January 14, 2009, 04:29:20 PM
High calorie drinks eh? Can't gain weight? First off, drink a protein shake in the morning. Don't do shit with it. Afterwards, hit Starbucks and get anything with White Chocolate in it. For lunch and dinner, go to Burger King. Chocolate Ice Cream Shake (950 cal). Always have Big Gulps around throughout the day (600 cal). After work, get drunk on Pina Coladas.

I'm sorry but what kind of nutritional advisement is this? - You can still gain weight if you are a hard gainer (like myself), and do it in a healthy fashion.  Eating fast food should never be a nutritional recommendation.  Calories aren't calories - your body processes it differently, not to mention the huge amounts of sodium and lethal amounts of trans-fat's you are ingesting from Burger King, but then again, I guess it depends if you are consuming food for taste or performance.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on January 14, 2009, 04:30:19 PM
Nightshade needs green text. But he won't get it.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nightshade on January 14, 2009, 04:37:46 PM
Nightshade needs green text. But he won't get it.

Green text, good?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Hindenburg on January 14, 2009, 04:40:16 PM
Green's used for sarcasm around here. All the cool kids skip it, tho.
Stray's earlier post was in jest.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: NiX on January 14, 2009, 04:43:01 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v77/m0shm4n/sarchasm.jpg)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Yoru on January 14, 2009, 05:14:41 PM
Yeah, leading routes are definitely a lot more interesting - there are a ton of overhangs, caves, and that's actually one reason I'm focusing more on workouts - I've got good balance and I'm skinny so vertical faces with pinches are my strongest point; anywhere I can keep my weight on my feet. Overhangs are my weakest.

Yeah that helps a ton. I used to be just like that, and I'm a skinny bastard too. Since I've been climbing rarely but lifting regularly, it's reversed; there's this wicked V3 overhang marathon with some awesome heel-hooking action that I can absolutely kill at my gym while V2s or V2+s with crimp or pinch grips kill me.

It's really quite frustrating to look at a route, know how to climb it technically and then just have your fingers give out on the third move.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Hindenburg on January 14, 2009, 07:10:01 PM
Day 2: Plyometrics, which is codespeak for Squats.
Legs gave out several times during the disc, and had to use the pause button a lot. Heart rate was at 180bpm most of the time, even with the pauses. Extremly glad that I didn't have to go down any stairways, because this thing sure as fuck gave me a bad case of drunken legs.

Can't see Day 3: Shoulders and Back, going very well, since my shoulders, trapezium and back are still quite a bit sore, but hey, who needs to flex their arms more than 90º, or get up from chairs without help anyway?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: SnakeCharmer on January 14, 2009, 08:46:02 PM
Day 3 (Shoulders/Biceps/Triceps) wasn't quite as fun as the rest.  Mostly due to soreness I was feeling from Monday.  Shoulders are a bit of a worry for me because I've got a really bad right shoulder (rotator cuff) that snaps, crackles and pops on any rotational movement.  If you put your hand on my shoulder, you feel the bones grinding together.  So I have to take it very, very easy with that part otherwise it could knock me out for a couple weeks.

Whoever designed the Ab Ripper program must have a pain fetish.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: MrHat on January 14, 2009, 08:49:21 PM
Day 3 (Shoulders/Biceps/Triceps) wasn't quite as fun as the rest.  Mostly due to soreness I was feeling from Monday.  Shoulders are a bit of a worry for me because I've got a really bad right shoulder (rotator cuff) that snaps, crackles and pops on any rotational movement.  If you put your hand on my shoulder, you feel the bones grinding together.  So I have to take it very, very easy with that part otherwise it could knock me out for a couple weeks.

Whoever designed the Ab Ripper program must have a pain fetish.

I was using the Ab ripper program over the summer as my 'ab workout'.  It's great except some of it makes my lower back hurt.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Hindenburg on January 19, 2009, 09:09:53 AM
(http://vnmedia.ign.com/camelotvault.ign.com/images/weekinreview.gif)
First week was a miserable failure due to ungodly ammounts of lactic acid build-up in arms, back and tights. Only managed to do 2 days of exercise, and then lost the capability to perform an angle lower than 90º or bigger than 160º, with both arms, without suffering intense pain for the rest of the week. Arms only stopped hurting today, legs still aren't completely recovered. Will write that week off as non existent and start from scratch today.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: schild on January 19, 2009, 09:12:53 AM
Oh cool, the girl in Nebu's picture went from nerd to sassy bitch. Truly, a transformation. Let's hear it for society!


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: schild on January 19, 2009, 09:14:09 AM
On that note, I'm tempted to grab P90X and suffer with you. I do not have access to real exercise equipment and can't join a gym, so this should be quite the trip.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Hoax on January 19, 2009, 01:01:01 PM
On that note, I'm tempted to grab P90X and suffer with you. I do not have access to real exercise equipment and can't join a gym, so this should be quite the trip.

I was thinking in a similar vein, but I think we could both buy the bands and be fine?  I've got the Iron Gym (good stuff) and a chair already..


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: SnakeCharmer on January 19, 2009, 02:33:50 PM
Sort of along the same lines as Itto, starting Friday night, my workout went to shit.  Hello Mr. FeverSinusesChestCongestionCoughHeadacheAndOtherFluLikeSymptoms, how are you?  Felt like complete ass until this morning actually.  Debated not even coming to work, but feeling better as the day goes on.  I feel like I'm on reset, so may as well start the process anew.

And yeah, Hoax, the bands and pull up bar is all you really need. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Hindenburg on January 20, 2009, 09:09:17 AM
Rebooted Day 1 was much better than the original. Managed to last a lot longer, heart stayed at 160bpm, did more of everything. Only complete failure was, again, caused by Diamond Push Ups.

Not feeling any lactic acid, only bona fide muscular fatigue.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 20, 2009, 09:26:22 AM
Rebooted Day 1 was much better than the original. Managed to last a lot longer, heart stayed at 160bpm, did more of everything. Only complete failure was, again, caused by Diamond Push Ups.

Not feeling any lactic acid, only bona fide muscular fatigue.

I think starting day 1 again was a brilliant idea.  The number one enemy to most people getting back into a regular workout routine is overtraining.  It's great to be enthusiastic about the workout, but it's also important to have realistic expectations.  Well played, sir.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Hoax on January 20, 2009, 04:50:32 PM
And yeah, Hoax, the bands and pull up bar is all you really need. 

Anyone have thoughts on where to order online?

I think I'll acquire the videos this week.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: SnakeCharmer on January 20, 2009, 05:19:03 PM
amazon.com is probably your best bet.  Or you can overpay at www.beachbody.com.  Not sure where you are, but if there's an Academy Sports near you, or probably even a Wal Mart, you could probably pick them up there on the cheap.  I'd still recommend barbells, though.  The resistance with barbells is more constant; with the bands, the resistance eases up somewhat as you get closer to where ever they are anchored.  That said, if your a n00b to strength training, it might not be a bad idea to start with them to get used to the movements.  Someone else can either verify (or vilify) my thinking on that.  Amazon.com also has the pull up bar, as does Academy Sports.

Depending on your current strength, there's a fairly cheap set of adjustable ones at Academy Sports.  I bought these (http://www.academysports.com/index.php?page=content&target=products/fitness/weight_training/weight_sets&start=0&selectedSKU=0422-00621-0043), along with some extra weights.  Looking back, I should have bought something better, considering the weights move around and cause the 'nuts' to slowly loosen, which causes the weights to slide around a bit.  Which is more than a bit disconcerting when you have them directly over your head.  My 'buy stuff frivolously' account is drained for the month, but am going to pick up something better next month.

And I cannot stress how integral the pull up bar is, even if you cant do one by yourself (use a chair for assistance).  I'd definately pick one of those.

You can get the vids only on amazon for about 65 bucks, and I can send you the documentation.  That said, all of it can be found at certain places for cheap. 



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: schild on January 21, 2009, 08:01:33 AM
So I acquired all the P90X stuff.

This shit. Frightening.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: SnakeCharmer on January 21, 2009, 08:44:47 AM
Don't be a pussy!!  BRING IT, BITCH!!!

Actually, it's not that bad.  Don't overdo the weights; do what you can do and don't let ego get in the way.  Proper form > all.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 21, 2009, 09:58:06 AM
So I acquired all the P90X stuff.

This shit. Frightening.

Now... I'm intrigued. 

My current workout:

M-Sat 30 mins on stationary bike in the morning, run 2-5 miles in the evening.

M: Chest and abs
T: Back and legs
W: Cardio only
Th: Shoulders and abs
F: Biceps, triceps, and legs

For each body part I do 3 exercises, 3 sets each to failure in a pyramid fashion.  4th exercise for each part is a compound exercise done in 3 supersets.  I use free weights primarily and machines for back and some legs.

Q: How does this program compare to my normal routine?  If it's more intense, I'm definately in. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Hindenburg on January 21, 2009, 10:13:37 AM
If it's more intense, I'm definately in. 

You're in.

Actually, it's not that bad.

Yes. Yes it is. Plyo is satan made video. Even on the second run.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: SnakeCharmer on January 21, 2009, 11:15:02 AM
Nebu - Depends on how hard you push your own workout, I suppose.  There's very little rest involved.  For instance, on Chest/Back (disk 1), you're constantly alternating front to back.  Then switch it around and do the same routine backwards.  You_just_don't_stop.  It's cardio/circuit training, basically.  If you're working the weight you should, you'll be spent after the first go around, much less the second.  You get a 1 minute water break about 35 minutes into it, then you're right back into the fray.

Itto - I loved the plyo.  Favorite part thus far.  Don't get me wrong, it was painful (in a good way) and whatnot, but my enjoyment of it overcame it.  Felt like a kid again.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Hindenburg on January 21, 2009, 01:57:19 PM
I loved the plyo.  Favorite part thus far.  Don't get me wrong, it was painful (in a good way) and whatnot, but my enjoyment of it overcame it.  Felt like a kid again.

I'll consider plyo overcomed when I can manage the fourth set of rockstar jumps at the same speed and same height that they do it. Until then, I'm just trying to catch up. Don't consider getting to the end, performing every exercise to some extent, overcoming it.

Different strokes for different folks, though. When that prick says "EX-like" and crosses his arms, after the obligatory (http://www.bestweekever.tv/bwe/images/2007/10/OFFICE%20DWIGHT%20EYEROLL.JPG), it's back into walking along the razor's edge land.  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: SnakeCharmer on January 21, 2009, 02:13:32 PM
Heh, maybe I should clarify...

I couldn't do what they did as much or as high as they did.  But I did manage to not press the stop button on the DVD and toss in the towel for the night. 

The dude jumping around on a prosthetic leg really pushes me to go through it.  Genius move for motivation if there ever was one:  See?  Dude only has ONE LEG and HE CAN DO IT!!! says the smarmy fucker that is Tony Horton.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on January 22, 2009, 12:59:48 PM
Hey Neb, do you know a good "neck exercise"? I'm starting to look like Ally McBeal.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 22, 2009, 01:07:19 PM
Hey Neb, do you know a good "neck exercise"? I'm starting to look like Ally McBeal.

HERE (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/exercises.php?MainMuscle=Neck) are some with weights and some isometric.  I prefer to use machines when I work my neck (it's a Nautilus machine that you put your face into and can work forward back or side-to-side) and always work shoulders and do shrugs to help with accessory muscle groups.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on January 22, 2009, 01:12:07 PM
Thanks. What is that machine exactly?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 22, 2009, 02:20:12 PM
Thanks. What is that machine exactly?

(http://www.genofit.com/images/Nautilus/2FWN_4_Way_Neck.jpg)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on January 22, 2009, 03:54:08 PM
By the way, do isometrics mainly just increase strength? Not that that's bad, I could use that in my neck too. But I do have a bit of an "aesthetic" concern here.  :grin:


[edit] On a humourous note, that creepy infomercial guy, "John Basedow" did not work out his neck.

(http://vksempireofdirt.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/john1.jpg)



I don't know why, but I'm still cracking up on that rumor that he died in that tsunami a couple of years back.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 22, 2009, 04:54:57 PM
If you want to increase muscle mass you need both weights and a workout system meant to put on bulk.  Just working shoulders and upper back hard in a regular routine will often give you neck mass by default. 

To be honest, I really only work my neck to avoid injury and out of habit from my football days.  My neck and my forearms are the two areas I tend to isolate the least.  They get so much work while targeting larger muscle groups that I never really feel much need to work them separately. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on January 22, 2009, 05:07:45 PM
Well thanks. I have weights, but the only one I've tried is laying on my chest/weight on the back of my head. Figured there'd be others besides that and the whole "put on a jackstrap" on my head routine.... seems a bit too serious.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Hoax on January 26, 2009, 11:59:27 AM
Ok so I've ordered some bands (never used em, like the idea of not having weights taking up space and stubbing my toes) and I've got the materials.  I'm going to start for real after the superbowl.

So this week I thought I start messing with it and trying to setup my baselines, make sure I figure out where in my house I can get it done, how to do it etc.  I'll try to take a before pic and post it but no gaurantees I can be assed to bother roommates digi camera.

I've got a question though, for pre/post protein intake what are people doing?  I'm esp interested in Nebu's thoughts since over the years I've heard all sorts of theories about how much and when you should eat before and after a workout.

Going to do the chest/back tonight, I got up at 6am this morning and the thought of excercising for an hour made me feel sick.  Not that I can't function in the mornings, just bleh my stomach is at its most finicky early in the day.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 26, 2009, 12:10:22 PM
I've got a question though, for pre/post protein intake what are people doing?  I'm esp interested in Nebu's thoughts since over the years I've heard all sorts of theories about how much and when you should eat before and after a workout.

There isn't really any sudden burst of muscle development after a workout.  Consider the building of muscle tissue as 24-hour process.  With that in mind, getting adequate protein throughout the day is far more critical than the window after a workout. You simply need a few grams of protein to replace what was burned as energy and you're good to go.

In my experience, the most important nutrient after a workout is carbohydrate. While muscle rebuilding takes place over 24 - 72 hours following a workout, there is a window of a few hours where your muscles are "primed" to take in carbohydrates that were depleted during training. For this reason, you'll find the post-workout shakes to contain about a 2:1 carb-protein ratio to supply just enough protein but plenty of carbohydrate to refuel your muscles.  The type of protein you take in matters as well.  Whey protein is rapidly absorbed and rapidly cleared, so you'll need some protein that is dietary or soy based to make sure that you have consistent stores for rebuilding. 

I try to eat a snack 30-60 mins before I workout (usually balanced protein and carbs) and a shake after.  The shake is mostly to cover any protein that was catabolized by the workout and to keep my stores up.  Being a vegetarian, I supplement a lot anyway. 

Hope that helps.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: SnakeCharmer on January 29, 2009, 11:39:02 AM
A PM from Itto reminded me that I wanted to update this..

As of today, I'm down to 203 lbs, a drop of 19 lbs since I started.  Although I didn't get my body fat measured at the start, I feel like I've lost more fat pounds than that, and have added a few pounds of muscle.  An impromptu measurement of the neck and waist showed a drop of 1.5 inches from the neck (down to 17") and a whopping 5.5 inches from around my midsection.  Which is probably a combination of losing weight and my abs getting stronger and holding my guts in better.

I haven't quite followed the diet as well as I'd like, but overall, I'd say 75 percent of my meals/snacks are straight from the program.

I added a fairly stout stretching routine to it that I do every morning, and I feel like that's helped tremendously.  Between the weight loss and stretching, I feel like I've come a really long ways - but fully recognize I still have a ways to go. 

The important thing is that I am feeling really freaking good, I'm sleeping much much better.  Back pain is nearly non existant.  My eating habits are drastically improved. 

And it's quite nice to hear "Damn, you look good" from your wife when you walk through the house after a workout without a shirt on.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on January 30, 2009, 07:47:52 AM
Not because I have a man-crush on you, but you should post an updated pic.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on January 30, 2009, 07:55:50 AM
That's great man. Kudos. Pretty neat to see you're already getting a 20lb loss/result.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: SnakeCharmer on January 30, 2009, 10:27:59 AM
@ Cyrexx - I thought about it, might do something for the end of the 1st month.  Kinda want to wait until it's all over with and see if someone can do one of those morph things with photoshop or something.

@ Stray - Thanks, man. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: CharlieMopps on February 05, 2009, 09:23:12 AM
Go watch the movie "Bigger faster stronger" and you'll quickly realize exactly how these guys do it. lol


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on February 05, 2009, 09:40:44 AM
As of today, I'm down to 203 lbs, a drop of 19 lbs since I started.  Although I didn't get my body fat measured at the start, I feel like I've lost more fat pounds than that, and have added a few pounds of muscle.  An impromptu measurement of the neck and waist showed a drop of 1.5 inches from the neck (down to 17") and a whopping 5.5 inches from around my midsection.  Which is probably a combination of losing weight and my abs getting stronger and holding my guts in better.

Impressive as hell!  Losing more than 2lbs a week is tough and it sounds like you're just tearing through this program.  Keep us updated.  You've been great motivation. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: SnakeCharmer on February 05, 2009, 10:02:34 AM
Appreciate it, Neb.

Thing is, with my body type, all I really needed to do was to get moving and eat better.  Which probably can be said for just about anyone, but it's not in my genetics to be a fatass.  I had developed some really bad eating habits and become mostly sedentary.  When I did Schilds diet months ago, I dropped weight rather quickly (almost too fast).  Quitting smoking, while good for my overall health, added some pounds as well.  Hell, with just the diet alone I would have seen awesome results - I'm eating about 1/3rd calories I used to, and more importantly, they're good calories.

I was concerned that since I've approached middle age (damnit......) that it would be harder to get off.  But so far, that hasn't been the case.  Yeah, the program DOES work - but then again, doing anything is better than doing nothing. 

That said, I do expect the gains (losses?) to flatten out for the next 60 days.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on February 05, 2009, 10:08:05 AM
The only thing that I'll caution you about is that, like any exercise program, you'll start to plateau after 2-3 months.  The key here is to change the routine while maintaining intensity.  Your body is an amazing machine and will adapt to any program you throw at it.  The key is to keep your body guessing so that it always trying to adapt to the new, increased stress level.

I also encourage you to start a blog.  Places like bodybuilding.com give out cash to people that make impressive physical transformations.  You can become the posterchild for fitness!


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Hindenburg on February 07, 2009, 07:30:18 AM
The program ends after 3 months, and the workout sequence changes monthly.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Hoax on February 07, 2009, 02:13:06 PM
Tomorrow is my day of rest so here is my summation of week 1:

Chest & Back (Monday) -- Fucking pull ups, I have next to 0 upper body strength (slender build, never been fat so arms have never had to work hard, only sport I played seriously was soccer).  But I'm 6"1 / 170lbs so its not like its an light lift, fucking pull ups.  I did ok with everything else but holy chrsit the second round I was pretty much not going to get a pull up off if I went from full extension.  It was a little pathetic really.

Ab Ripper -- This is fun, my core is the only thing beyond running and random fuck around cardio that I ever work out.  Still a killer motherfucker at times but honestly the hardest thing is the bicycles because my quads were still sore from doing the fitness test max wall squat the day before.  Tired quads will be a theme of this whole week.  I also got very frustrated (I get angry when I'm at my max) when I got to those lying on your side crunch things.  I have no idea how the fuck you are supposed to do those.  I looked for form tips on the web but didn't find anything useful, I feel like a retarded sea lion trying to do them without some instruction on wtf I'm doing.  The mason hit the floor things at the end are nasty.  All in all though I like the ab ripper, after doing it 3 time I can feel the muscles getting deeper across my stomach, happy with this.

Plyo (Tuesday) -- Oh wow, I thought this was going to be chill, it was brutal at times, again my legs were being worked hard.

Shoulders & Arms (Wednesday) -- It will be interesting to do this next week now that I've got some notes on how much weight to use / which band.  I was having all sorts of trouble picking the right thing and keeping in rhythm.  Didn't feel too sore afterwards but probably because I couldn't really push it properly.

Ab Ripper -- Was more of the same, I think if anything I did my best run this day.

Yoga (Thursday) -- Oh fuck yes.  This was amazing.  I really absolutely loved this.  Even though I can't go a day without seeing people walking around with yoga mats slung over their shoulders and I have several friends and tons of people at work who swear by it I've never done any yoga.  Fucking great.  If nothing else I will be taking some yoga in the future, I have never felt such an amazing sweat 15 minutes into anything.  The balance shit was hard though, but I knew from wiiFit yoga that I fail at balance.  Will be fun to work on it.

Legs & Back (Friday) -- I took this on pretty late, squats were fucking killer, my legs are so worn down.  I went very easy on this one, no weight on anything really except the calf exercise which was amazing.  I wanted to go easy on my legs.  I also stopped doing any pull ups in the second half because my left elbow was fucked up from tossing the football around in the street the day before.  I didn't like the way it felt.  I also put off Ab Ripper a day because it was late as fuck when I finally finished.

Kenpo (Sat) -- I liked the start but the kicks felt silly, I need to look into kick mechanics because I felt like I was just throwing my legs around retarded.  I also could have gone with less karate and more punching but whatever.  I may just double up the first 10 minutes in the future.  It was fun and it did go fast. 

Ab Ripper  (Sat) -- This was brutal, not sure why.  I was just tired from the whole week maybe.  Bicycles made me want to cry and it was down hill from there.  I was taking 10 reps on 5 off 10 on for most of the exercises.

Thoughts:
Overall my soreness wasn't too bad.  I think my legs took a beating because there is alot of muscle there its just out of practice so I was able to push it and push it and then pay for it later.  My upper body is pretty much developing something from nothing so I can't go very hard in the first place. 

Its annoying how much outside research I needed to do to check out proper form and how to achieve it.  I get that your supposed to be a gym rat looking for the XTREME shit or whatever but still it'd be nice if in the documentation they went through each thing and how to do it correctly. 

The bands are pretty cool but take practice, the size of the loop is critical, it took me some time to figure out to stretch them to get the handles on.  I'm fucking retarded.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on February 07, 2009, 03:17:38 PM
Chest & Back (Monday) -- Fucking pull ups, I have next to 0 upper body strength (slender build, never been fat so arms have never had to work hard, only sport I played seriously was soccer).  But I'm 6"1 / 170lbs so its not like its an light lift, fucking pull ups.  I did ok with everything else but holy chrsit the second round I was pretty much not going to get a pull up off if I went from full extension.  It was a little pathetic really.

I understand completely, but don't give up.  I'm 6' and 205, so I know all about it not being an easy lift.  Just keep doing them and you will gradually see improvement.  Also, you'll find that your body has natural strengths and tendencies.  For me pistol grip pullups are far easier than narrow grip with palms toward me which are easier than wide grip with palms away.  It's a matter of your strength in your biceps, shoulders, chest, and back that will help.  The more you do them, the easier they will become.  Don't give up. 

(sorry for the novel). 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Yoru on February 07, 2009, 04:05:17 PM
Pullups are key. Remember that changing your arm position significantly shifts the focus of the exercise. Wide-grip prone (palms-away) pullups are all about the back, less about the arms and shoulders. Tight-grip supine (palms-facing-you) pullups are largely bicep and shoulder, much less back. Thumbless grips will work your forearm and finger strength, fingertip grips more-so.

I do not recommend doing fingertip grips before you can do a couple sets of five thumbless, though. :grin:

As a climber, I make sure I incorporate at least one set into every workout with a varying grip/position. Since I started doing this regularly, my climbing has improved immensely and I'm getting close to where I was prior to leaving SF (high V3/low V4) even though my technique has degraded some. I can also campus like a motherfucker now, which makes for a fun "party trick" at the end of a climbing-gym outing. We've got a campusing ladder in my gym, and I do vertical laps on the fucker. Great way to finish an evening when your forearms/fingers can barely move, but your shoulders are still demanding more pain.

I'm also interested in the "Kenpo" segment of P90X; is there a video of this somewhere? I did actual Kenpo karate for several years, I'd like to see how faithful their "kenpo" section is. I expect Ed Parker is spinning in his grave. The basic ones I remember are the ball/cat kick, roundhouse, inward/outward arc kicks, rear kick, and side kick. The arc kicks are pretty weird, requiring a lot of timing and balance, but they're decent for scoring points in sparring competitions.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on February 16, 2009, 04:10:37 PM
I might need to get one of these pull up things. I live by a playground, and don't feel like walking over and doing them there everytime. Doubtful I'll bother with P90X though. Just need to stimulate my body a bit with basic compound exercises. I'm doubling my caloric intake as well (along with protein). I'm 175 at the moment, still around 11% bodyfat. I'll post results in a month! Hopefully I'll keep the fat nearly as low, but that's doubtful.

[edit] wait, nevermind.. false alarm.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on February 17, 2009, 04:19:55 AM
@Nebu

Hey man, if presses give me more stress in my triceps than my chest, what should I be adjusting...? I just do barbell presses. My form seems good. But I've always had this problem, where I feel like I'm not working my pectorals enough, and get worn out in my arms. Be it pushups, presses, etc..


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on February 17, 2009, 08:54:07 AM
@Nebu

Hey man, if presses give me more stress in my triceps than my chest, what should I be adjusting...? I just do barbell presses. My form seems good. But I've always had this problem, where I feel like I'm not working my pectorals enough, and get worn out in my arms. Be it pushups, presses, etc..

The width of your grip. 

Wide grip = pecs.  Narrow grip = triceps. 

Make your grip as wide as you can comfortably go to focus pectoral muscles.  Incline to add shoulder and tops of pecs, decline to add back and bottoms of pecs.  Thats' the best I can offer.  Triceps are always secondary in pushups or presses, the grip width changes amount of emphasis. 

Hope that helps.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on February 17, 2009, 01:37:29 PM
It does, thanks man


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Margalis on February 18, 2009, 03:51:02 AM
You might also consider doing butterflies.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on February 18, 2009, 07:41:02 AM
I was going to say the same thing.  If you have a machine where you can open up the fly arms an do what amounts to an "open fly" (heh), you'll notice that it'll tear the shit out of your pecs.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on February 18, 2009, 07:45:44 AM
Damn, no, I wish I had that. I just have a plain old bench, a bar, and some dumbbells. [edit] and the only dumbbells I have are a bit heavy for flys right now.  :\

I should add that my chest was a lot more sore after waking up yesterday.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on February 18, 2009, 08:30:50 AM
I'd recommend a pair of the handles below.  You can move them around to isolate triceps or chest, you can put your feet on the bed for upper pecs, or elevate the handles for lower pecs.  Between a pair of these, a pullup bar, and a place to do dips... you're covered.  Mine cost like $10 at WalMart.

(http://www.smrfoamroller.com/pushupbar.gif)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on February 19, 2009, 08:33:32 AM
I've been avoiding this thread because I thought P90X was about some gadget that I didn't want to know about so colour me surprised at finding a workout thread. Turns out I can even get it in the UK.  As I've managed to let myself go over the last 4/5 months owing work/home life balance becoming, um, unbalanced, and I've got some serious events planned that I need to get back in shape for. So I'm looking at something I can do at home and that will motivate me.  Couple of quick Qs though:

1. Does it give alternatives to pull-ups?

2.
Day 2: Plyometrics, which is codespeak for Squats.
Is it real plyometrics or what?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Broughden on March 04, 2009, 10:15:49 PM
Its been weeks! Updates please.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on March 05, 2009, 08:30:22 AM
Ya, do tell.  I'm on my own kind of a plan (the putting on weight/muscle type, not for losing...I did the weight loss thing last year), so I'm hugely curious in this topic in general.  I'd also be curious if anyone out there is trying to do the same thing I am doing...would be interesting to compare notes.  Apparently, I am OCD enough that I tend to be pretty good at this sort of thing.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on March 05, 2009, 09:14:51 AM
Ya, do tell.  I'm on my own kind of a plan (the putting on weight/muscle type, not for losing...I did the weight loss thing last year), so I'm hugely curious in this topic in general.  I'd also be curious if anyone out there is trying to do the same thing I am doing...would be interesting to compare notes.  Apparently, I am OCD enough that I tend to be pretty good at this sort of thing.

THIS (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/wotw56.htm) is the plan I've been doing.  It's based on German volume training and I have to confess that with proper diet, my growth has been the best I've seen in years.  In a month I've added 25lbs to my decline bench and had significant gains in shoulder and tricep strength. 

I'm wanting to hear more about this P90x.  You got me motivated to get more hardcore... I want to hear your story!


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Hindenburg on March 05, 2009, 02:40:50 PM
I gained 4 pounds of fat  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: SnakeCharmer on March 06, 2009, 11:51:16 AM
Update?

Going well.  Really well.  I haven't weighed myself in a while, but I'm probably down to high 180's at this point.  Probably the most telling is that I'm able to fit into a pants I haven't been able to wear in years and my snoring has been all but eliminated - which will hopefully continue and I won't have to use my CPAP machine anymore for my sleep apnea.

A side effect is that the weight loss and increased flexibility has temporarily screwed up my golf game.  As I put on weight and lost flexibility over the past several years, I (unintentionally) started altering small parts of my swing to make up for the changes.  So, trying to re-groove my old swing or rebuild a new one which is going to take some time.  Scoring in the 80's is killing me, when I'm used to playing a scratch handicap.

But it's been alot of fun.  Started playing tennis again, my energy level is through the roof.  Spending alot less time on my ass.

And the response I get from people I haven't seen in a couple months/several weeks is always a trip.  So far, about 8 or so of my friends/colleagues have bought the system and are having a great deal of fun with it.

Highly recommend it.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Sky on March 06, 2009, 12:32:28 PM
I'm looking forward to starting my workout program in a couple months. I'll start with some plumbing and the move onto some masonry and tree removal, then onto some excavation  :grin:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Yoru on March 06, 2009, 12:37:24 PM
I'm still chugging along. I've added 5kg to my bench and military press weights and broken the 1.5x bodyweight barrier on deadlifts. Just about hitting bodyweight now on squats. 3x8 pullups are pretty much a certainty unless I do them dead last after a long workout, and then I usually still hit 8/8/7.

I need to find a decent core exercise to rotate in, so I've been practicing Turkish Get-Ups at home using heavy books for weight.

My grip exercises have helped a lot, and I can pretty confidently take on V3 bouldering routes again. I've also gotten to the point that I can do two full laps on a campusing ladder without rest. :drill:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on March 06, 2009, 02:15:30 PM
I'm looking forward to starting my workout program in a couple months. I'll start with some plumbing and the move onto some masonry and tree removal, then onto some excavation  :grin:

Probably not a bad idea! Ever notice it's always like these unassuming lumberjack dudes that destroy people in "strong man" competitions?  :grin:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Rasix on March 06, 2009, 02:39:47 PM
I'm looking forward to starting my workout program in a couple months. I'll start with some plumbing and the move onto some masonry and tree removal, then onto some excavation  :grin:

OMG, did you get a house?  :why_so_serious:

I got a pullup bar thanks to this thread. Pullups are fun.  However, I simply cannot do pull ups with any hand separation with my palms facing out.  Is there any sort of low impact exercise I can do to start building up that muscle group?  Having a messed up/surgically repaired back may hamper this somewhat.   Only other semi-negative with this bar is that my elbow tendons/joints really can't put up with much of the other exercises I can do with it (pullups don't stress it at all).

My cardio has gone to shit since I stopped playing tennis.  I suppose I could start jogging.  Jogging is going to really suck in Arizona in less than a month.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Hindenburg on March 06, 2009, 03:20:58 PM
You could always use a chair to help.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on March 06, 2009, 04:28:47 PM
Is there any sort of low impact exercise I can do to start building up that muscle group? 

Place a chair on the floor but not directly under you.  Set the chair such that it only supports your heels and use a wide grip on the bar so your body is at about a 45 degree angle.  This will give you a lower impact version of a lat builder.  Doinf this, you will slowly gain strength in your back until you no longer need the chair for assist. 

Hope that helps.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Yoru on March 06, 2009, 04:51:24 PM
Just got back from the gym; I got there late today, and it was pretty empty even for a Friday, so I decided to trade-in bent-over rows for Turkish Get-Ups with real weight. I went straight for 12kg. I figured that since I'd been feeling pretty strong - at least, for a guy my size - I could just go for it.

The first one wasn't so bad. I had the form down pretty well thanks to practicing with the book. By the third, everything I ever thought I knew about my own strength was a lie. It was like my entire torso and arm was on fire.

I managed to finish 3x4 of the fuckers at 12kg before slinking off to hurt in the sauna.

Totally adding these fuckers to my normal rotation.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on March 07, 2009, 09:45:49 AM
Here's my story, in brief:

About a year ago my doctor told me my cholesterol was bad.  He also mentioned that I should "watch my weight"...I was about 187 pounds (5 foot 8), but I've always carried it fairly well, so most people wouldn't have said I was overweight.  But I was.  Went on a pretty intense diet - more of a lifestyle change, really - and lost about 45 pounds.  I did that in about 4 or 5 months, primarily through a good diet and a whole lot of kickboxing.  I bought a heavy bag and some gloves, and would just go beat the shit out of it for 20 - 30 minutes every day.  For anyone out there looking for a good, fun program to help lose extra weight an whip yourself into shape, I cannot stress enough how fantastic the kickboxing is.

Anyway, I maintained my new low weight (about 140-ish) for a long time.  I started to realize that, while I was in pretty good shape, I really was too small.  All the muscle mass I used to have as a younger fellow (I'm 35 now) was nowhere to be found.  I was too lean.  So about 60 days ago, I started in earnest to put on some serious weight/muscle.  I began doing a lot of research on weight gaining diets and programs.  I got all the protein shakes.  I increased my caloric intake to much higher levels.  I went out and bought a relatively cheap single-station home gym...I knew that this wasn't the ideal solution, but I felt like I needed to build a foundation in the privacy of my own home before I seriously considered free weights and/or a public gym.  I have so far not regretted that decision one bit.  You can get a hell of a lot out of a machine, particularly if you are a beginner.

I'm pretty dedicated, to the point of being a bit OCD about this stuff.  Not only have I stuck to my routine to the fucking letter, but I'm probably on the border of overdoing it a little - the biggest flaw in my schedule is that I cannot seem to bring myself to add in the proper rest that my body probably needs between workouts.  OTOH, I am a weirdly fast healer, so I'm not sure I need the rest that other people might.

So, the net results to this point.  58 days into my program, and I have put on right around 30 pounds (I'm back to 172).  I measure my body fat, and at the same time, by lean body mass numbers, every day.  According to the math, I've put on about 16 pounds of LBM (muscle, bone, hair, etc.) and 14 pounds of fat.  In reality, I think it is probably even more muscle than that, because I understand that body fat scales often have a hard time with extra muscle, and call it out as fat.  I can also see in the mirror that it's mostly muscle being put on, though there is certainly a ring of extra fat being added around my waist :awesome_for_real:  It would bother me more, but all the credible information I've read said that the most efficient method is to just gain muscle and fat like a motherfucker, and then work on cutting the fat later (bulk then cut).  That's what they say most bodybuilders do, so if it's good enough for them, it must be good enough for me.  In two days, I will move to my fat cutting phase.  I am extremely curious to see what I'm going to look like a few weeks into it.  I'm not sure how long I'll make this phase (2 or 3 weeks at least, I imagine), because I'm not sure how it's going to progress.

Also, at nearly two months into my program, I am a hair away from outgrowing my cheap little single-station gym, which I never would have imagined possible.  For pretty much every compound exercise (rows, lat pulldowns, bench, dead-lifts), I have maxed out the machine weight.  It's still fine for most isolation stuff, because it's not like I'll be doing 170 pound preacher curls anytime soon.  Regardless of how much actual muscle I've put on, I am waaay stronger than I was when I begun.  I am now looking seriously into buying a good Power Rack and some free weights, otherwise it will be very difficult to continue progressing with the critical compound exercises.

I've also learned a whole lot about how the body works, which has been fun.  I'm kind of looking forward to my cutting phase, because frankly, I am getting really sick and tired of eating all the god damned time and being full before I even sit down for dinner.

Shit, that wasn't too brief. :uhrr:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on March 07, 2009, 10:09:22 AM
Honestly, I'm impressed.  The biggest problem with a lot of these intense programs is people do great with them for a month and then life happens and they drop the exercise portion, keep eating an increased number of calories, and gain 10 lbs.    Bravo to everyone keeping up with it. 



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on March 07, 2009, 10:27:00 AM
I'm impressed too, and nah, that wasn't too long Cyrrex. :)


Keeping weight down isn't too bad.. You can't maintain an extremely low fat percentage (like 6 pack range) without being a bit obsessive about it, but you can certainly prevent a gut, even without much exercise (err.. conscious/intentional exercise, I mean). Just gotta stop being so sedentary and eating complete shit. People don't drink enough water these days either.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on March 07, 2009, 04:42:58 PM
Nice work Cyrrex!

You're correct on the gain/cut mechanism.  Muscle increases BMR so it's much easier to drop weight fast after gaining.  The only problem is that during a cut phase you'll also lose about 20% of your muscle mass. 

I hope that you stick with it.  Maybe we can compare notes come May.  I'm not going to be done with this cycle until then.  I better get some handicap for my age!


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Azaroth on March 07, 2009, 05:56:16 PM
(http://58 days) into my program, and I have put on right around 30 pounds (I'm back to 172).  I measure my body fat, and at the same time, by lean body mass numbers, every day.  According to the math, I've put on about 16 pounds of LBM (muscle, bone, hair, etc.) and 14 pounds of fat.  In reality, I think it is probably even more muscle than that

Hate to burst bubbles, but that's not possible. Unless you're on steroids.

Even then it'd be a good result.

At best, a natural trainee can expect about 2 pounds of lean mass per month. That's with everything being perfect, and great genetics. Generally you can expect less than that.

I'd be interested to know if you're measuring LBM with calipers or a handheld monitor, on a scale, in a dunk tank, or what. It sounds like you're using an electric bathroom scale, and all I can do is warn you that those things are horribly inaccurate to the point of being completely worthless for measuring bodyfat percentages.

If I'm only trying to help (and I am), I suggest you get some calipers and scale your calories back very quickly.


Edit: I feel like I should throw something positive in here, because I'm really not trying to be a dick - even though what I've said will likely be rejected off the bat and taken negatively.

That you're gaining strength and feeling good about it is awesome. Strength usually comes very quickly when you start out with weights, and it can be quite exciting. I remember being in love with the squat rack, watching my numbers go up substantially every week (I fucking hate squatting now).

Just really watch out with adding that much fat when you bulk. It's a bad thing that you'll regret later. Cutting is catabolic and it's very hard to hold onto all of your muscle and strength when you cut, so the less you have to do unnecessarily the better. At the moment, you've put on 30 pounds in 60 days and, again, unless you're on steroids then most of that is fat/water. The human body has a finite capacity for protein synthesis, and you can't change that without drugs.

The problem here is that you'll probably end up with less lean mass than when you started after you take that all off of yourself - especially if you end up with 60 pounds at four months, 90 pounds at six months, and so on. But at that point, the mirror will tell you very clearly to stop.

Out of curiosity, I'd be interested in seeing your diet (hopefully you keep a log) and your workout schedule.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on March 07, 2009, 06:24:26 PM
Just really watch out with adding that much fat when you bulk. It's a bad thing that you'll regret later.

That was kind of what I was getting at above.  Even if you cut on a VERY good diet, you're still likely to lose 20% of your muscle gains at a minimum. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on March 08, 2009, 10:09:00 AM
stuff

I understand and am aware of everything you stated.  I am using a scale to record measurements for now, and while I understand the inaccuracies involved, it works fine for benchmarks and indexes.  I'm not claiming that I've put on 16 pounds of pure muscle...as you say, some of it is certainly water weight and I'll see it falling away quickly.

As for the assertion that you cannot put on more than a couple pounds of muscle mass per month, without juicing (I wouldn't dream of using drugs), all I can say is that that is categorically untrue.  I don't want to get in a heated debate about it.  That may be an accurate generalization, but it sure as hell isn't true for anyone who is a relative beginner, and there are plenty of other variables involved.  Granted, it is very certainly starting to level out, and there is no way I could continue that pace.  But it is rather irresponsible to make such sweeping statements, because it's that kind of nonsense that frightens people away from even trying.

Edit:  Sorry if that comes off douchey...not trying to pick a fight.  It might help to explain that I was coming from a position where I was a bit too lean to begin with, am naturally very athletic, a natural mesomorph, am an oddly fast healer (really, it's almost weird), and I workout with high intensity.  Once I get through my cutting phase and begin my next bulking phase, I expect my experience to be a bit more in line with what you are suggesting.  But it will still be more than 2 pounds a month  :grin:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Azaroth on March 08, 2009, 02:09:13 PM
Alright. I'm just going to suggest the calipers again so you can accurately keep track of what's going on and have that knowledge for yourself.

Again, electronic scales do not work - so at the moment, you're guessing.

That's all I'll say on the subject.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on March 08, 2009, 03:31:52 PM
Again, electronic scales do not work - so at the moment, you're guessing.

He's right here.  Using capacitance on the scale only works for a small number of people under some very idealized conditions.  Get yourself a pair of calipers or you can use the naval measurement system for BMI (LINK HERE (http://zone.cust.he.net/prothd2.html)).  Of course, calculators that include more measurements tend to be MUCH more accurate.  If you are VERY serious, you can do an immersion test (measure of buoyancy due to fat). 

On a separate note, I think I've found the perfect home gym for under $300.

(http://www.sport-n-goods.com/acatalog/515m.jpg)

Chins, dips, abs, and pushup bars.  All you need is one of (THESE (http://www.liftinglarge.com/ProductImages/Spud-Dip-Belt.jpg)) for weighted pullups and dips and you have everything!

When I finish my bulk phase, I'm going to do nothing but naturals for the summer with a lot of road mileage.  Then I'll go back to volume training in the fall. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on March 08, 2009, 03:53:16 PM
You've provided a link for everything except the product link there ;)

That thing looks pretty tall though.. Hmm.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on March 08, 2009, 04:39:42 PM
You've provided a link for everything except the product link there ;)

That thing looks pretty tall though.. Hmm.

I have vaulted ceilings, so no worries.  I didn't leave a link because you can find these for like $250 if you search for dip/chin on my st retailer websites.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on March 08, 2009, 04:43:49 PM
I haven't been using the electronic scale because I thought it was giving me a good measure of what my true body fat calculation was - I've always known that it was overestimating the figure.  I HAVE been using it for benchmarking only...it gives me an idea of what kind of mass I am putting on (which is confirmed by looking in the mirror), and it has been plenty adequate for that purpose.

That said, I've been meaning to buy some calipers anyway, so I picked some up at GNC today.  So far, it is confirming what I already knew....the scale is adding about 4% extra.  I'll need more trial and error measuring with these things, because I've never used them before.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: MrHat on March 10, 2009, 09:11:20 AM
(http://www.sport-n-goods.com/acatalog/515m.jpg)

Chins, dips, abs, and pushup bars.  All you need is one of (THESE (http://www.liftinglarge.com/ProductImages/Spud-Dip-Belt.jpg)) for weighted pullups and dips and you have everything!

When I finish my bulk phase, I'm going to do nothing but naturals for the summer with a lot of road mileage.  Then I'll go back to volume training in the fall. 

Those things are awesome.  A friend of mine who works from home has one in his home office.  He basically just does dips and pullups ALL DAY.  Just like, whenever he needs a break, he hops on.  I want one badly.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Sky on March 10, 2009, 02:20:57 PM
That does look cool, wouldn't fit in my pad, though. Maybe in the garage, but it's getting tight for space in there already.

Someone mentioned a bag...that's an interesting idea. My singer always loved working bags, had four different kinds (even one odd one he had on the ceiling for David Lee Roth kicks), and I worked them a lot. And I've got a nice unfinished basement....drums, bench and a bag sounds perfect!


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on March 10, 2009, 03:32:59 PM
That was me.  I have two of them that I alternate out, depending on my mood (a 40 pounder and an 80 pounder).  All things considered, whaling away on these things is one of the best exercises I've ever done.  Just the regular boxing is a good all around workout, but if you add in the kicking part (and do it seriously), then it is taken to another level.  Also, my pretend Kung Fu skills are now extremely polished.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on March 10, 2009, 05:30:01 PM
Speaking of Kung-Fu and punching bags, I was telling Nebu to pick this up, but everyone should..

(http://i580.photobucket.com/albums/ss244/straykat627/Misc/bruce-lee_art-of-bodyjpg.jpg)


It's part of a larger series of books garnered from Lee's personal notes, but you can find it individually for cheap. It's the least combat centric one, and focused on fitness, so don't think it's for martial artists necessarily. Or even potential ones. It's a good book of tips and inspiration about endurance and functional bodybuilding. And in true Jeet Kune Do fashion, you can just take what's useful for you now (some of his routines are downright godly, so you'd probably kill yourself anyways). It's pretty impressive how much of his knowledge holds up. The thing that makes it stand out as a fitness book though is how it's function oriented. Just like his proclivity to shed laborious or useless combat skills, Lee was absolutely meticulous, in an age where it wasn't easy to gather nutrition and fitness knowledge, about working out towards a goal of function, and not just show-y-ness. The result was a 140 lb man powerful enough to kick a hole through one of those 80 pounders you're working on, Cyrrex, broke the chain, and left the stuffing all over James Coburn's lawn.. So before you say your kung-fu skills are extremely polished, think again! :P


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Mosesandstick on March 10, 2009, 05:41:08 PM
Ooo, I like the reccomendation.

I'm trying to trim my weight down (already gone from  240 to 200 lb on my 6 foot frame). Trying to aim to improve my core muscles and that sort of thing. I want to do aerial cartwheels eventually  :awesome_for_real:.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: schild on March 10, 2009, 05:49:07 PM
Quote
but it's getting tight for space in there already.

Throw some shit out you packrat.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on March 10, 2009, 06:16:50 PM
Ooo, I like the reccomendation.

I'm trying to trim my weight down (already gone from  240 to 200 lb on my 6 foot frame). Trying to aim to improve my core muscles and that sort of thing. I want to do aerial cartwheels eventually  :awesome_for_real:.

That's probably Lee's biggest thing, so you'll find stuff here. He had some other philosophies about it being the centerpoint of willpower and spirit and other stuff that you can ignore if you like, but a lot of his routine was about expanding obliques/abs/back/ribcage area. Kind interesting that he was 5'7", but had a 31" waist.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on March 10, 2009, 06:22:43 PM
Quote
The result was a 140 lb man powerful enough to kick a hole through one of those 80 pounders you're working on, Cyrrex, broke the chain, and left the stuffing all over James Coburn's lawn.. So before you say your kung-fu skills are extremely polished, think again! :P

I said my fake Kung Fu skills, fake.  :awesome_for_real:  I may be able to rig a bag to explode on impact of one of my powerful appearing (but ultimately wimpy) roundhouses, but it just seems like too much work.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on March 11, 2009, 03:35:27 AM
I am amazed by him though. I don't want to out and out say it's my personal goal to be like him (because I couldn't and don't have the same activities/objectives), but I'd like to achieve at least a fraction. I don't take martial arts as seriously as I used to either, so my "function" is a little more modest than his. I wonder if just "healthy living" is enough to keep me motivated to even achieve that though. Different types of athletes drive themselves to where they're at for performance gains. Better spring, better throwing, better running, etc.. Once you read up on Lee, his goal was to literally be able to kick everyone's ass. There was even a quote towards the end of his life.. Something along the lines of "In all honesty, I don't believe there is a single person who can beat me". Being obsessed about it drove him. At this point in my life, I'm not obsessed about anything athletic. It's all casual interest. So what exactly do I need to properly perform casual things without straining myself? Nothing! I'm already in shape for that...

Shit, I'm ranting. I think my point is.. I'm trying to find new athletic interests just so I can push myself to not suck at them. Yoru's an example here: He wants to mountain climb better. I need something like that.. It's actually more important than the exercise, I think.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Mosesandstick on March 11, 2009, 04:05:06 AM
Just find something you like? I think you're right about having a goal, it's really hard to do anything without having one. And a bit of obsession is healthy  :grin:.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on March 11, 2009, 05:25:26 AM
Yeah, I do need something I like.. But I'm sort of apathetic with my old hobbies (mostly basketball and skateboarding). Everyone's talking about their current "status of health" so that's mine. I think I'm fairly in shape, but have no particular aim to improve. Lee's book is all about having a particular aim, and I'd like to apply it somehow. Right now, my only goal is probably just to look better naked. Haha. But really, that's a bunch of bullshit.

[edit] deleted another rant. Drinking too much coffee.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Raging Turtle on March 11, 2009, 06:02:38 AM
That's probably Lee's biggest thing, so you'll find stuff here. He had some other philosophies about it being the centerpoint of willpower and spirit and other stuff that you can ignore if you like, but a lot of his routine was about expanding obliques/abs/back/ribcage area. Kind interesting that he was 5'7", but had a 31" waist.

Is that strange?  And would you expect it to be bigger or smaller?  Genuine question, because I'm 5'6 and have a 32-31" waist.  I'm in very good shape, but even when I'm out a little out of shape it doesn't change much. 

Interesting thread. 
/back to semi-lurking


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on March 11, 2009, 07:26:43 AM
I mean, it's strange if your waist consists of entirely abs and obliques and have virtually no body fat.

(http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/6636/bruceleeinhk1973jpg.jpg)


There's being "in shape", and then there's Bruce "Chuck Norris Facts Do Not Apply to Me" Lee. Not only did he not have much fat, but he had muscles built in places that most people won't actually see on other human beings during their entire lifetimes. If you're that in shape, then I applaud you.

(http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/7168/89871725.jpg)
(http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/58/traditionalbruceleejpg.jpg)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on March 11, 2009, 07:27:37 AM
I'm 6' tall with a 33" waist and a 44" chest.  I don't find that waist to be unusual at all.  I'm not even that lean... yet!

Stray: I think the key is to make working out part of daily life.  You don't really need an athletic component, but I'm sure it doesn't hurt.  I used to augment my workouts by playing basketball and running daily.  Without basketball, I'm finding it hard to go for a run every day so I understand your point.  Maybe it's time to find a new hobby?  See what's going on in the area.  If it's cold, pick up skiing.  Maybe golf?  Maybe something in the water?  I know that there are a lot of athletic programs around the country.  You just have to find them.  


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on March 11, 2009, 07:47:43 AM
No, I guess I'm not making sense. I'm just talking about a passion and specializing your physique, not merely augmenting with activities. It's not that I don't play sports or don't still skate a bit. I do. But when you have an activity you're obsessive about excelling at, and love, then you target the areas best suited for it. People who do that always look the most impressive. Lee, for example, at first might not come off as striking as a bodybuilder, but that's because he didn't care to focus on certain things. He thought big pecs, for example, didn't carry much use in combat, and eventually slimmed that area down a bit. He thought they slowed his guarding. He did, however, see that he could toss and pull the fuck out of people with big forearms. Hence, it became a goal to create ungodly forearms for himself. Goes for any athlete really. Runners and Swimmers have certain body types, dirtbike riders get into all kinds of intense circuit training and strengthen their backs and wrists, etc..


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on March 11, 2009, 08:29:04 AM
No, I guess I'm not making sense. I'm just talking about a passion and specializing your physique, not merely augmenting with activities.

I see now.  I misunderstood.  I was recruited heavily to play baseball in college.  When I made the commitment to play football instead, I spend 6 months reshaping my body for the sport.  It's exactly as you say: you want to maximize your utility given the rigors of the activity you want to be specialized at.  Interesting...


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Sky on March 11, 2009, 09:01:02 AM
Throw some shit out you packrat.
I've got some lumber and building materials, garbage cans, riding and push mowers, snowblower, tools and a couple guitar amps. I'm no packrat, but I don't buy into throwing out perfectly good stuff that I need just to make some space. Just need to organize, I moved in late last summer and had more pressing needs than organizing my garage. I still need space for a couple cords of wood and a small wood workshop, so even after I get it set up it won't have room for a workout area.

Bruce Lee is the man. Great mix of focus and genetics. I'm not much for show muscles, when I was unloading trucks and working out regularly I looked like a skinny little turd until I flexed. It was all useful strength, almost no show muscle at all. I liked being underestimated all the time, looking like a 98lb weakling and being able to wrestle guys twice my size and win easily. My favorite thing about walmart was the paid workout, which I augmented with bike riding, traditional stuff like situps/pushups and some bench work. Could literally not put on any mass, and I won't drink a shake or poke a needle or whatever.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on March 11, 2009, 10:13:47 AM
I'm 6' tall with a 33" waist and a 44" chest.  I don't find that waist to be unusual at all.  I'm not even that lean... yet!

Oh, umm.. I'm not sure if I'm misreading or you are, but I meant that Lee had a big muscular waist for someone his size. He was as fat free as it gets, but still thick there. I mean, sure it's easy to have a 31" waist. Lots of 5'7" Joe Blows probably have 31" waists. But for a typical dude, it'd be a belly. Even a typical fit person might just a little soft there. While Lee was hard as a rock. From his armpits to his waist, his physique went straight down like a square. So yeah, I think it's a little different looking (well, not entirely.. a lot of boxers are built similarly. Bodybuilders and such seem to like to slim up there though).

(http://www.cheekopek.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/last-movie-bruce-lee.jpg)
(http://www.hkcinemagic.com/en/images/people/large/dan_inosanto_et_bruce_lee2_7032be1b4326323633bc32445da656ed.jpg)


[edit] Just to add, wtf happened to Arnold. :uhrr:

(http://www.bsideblog.com/images/2008/06/arnold-schwarzenegger.jpg)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on March 11, 2009, 10:31:17 AM
Well, bodybuilders are really going for that...triangular shape.  You know, the massive wide shoulders and chest, with the smallish waist.  Apparently, that is what the virile male figure is supposed to look like?  I like Bruce's approach that functionality trumps form, and you can't really argue the results.  And really, he still kind of gets that effect with his freakishly big lats.  Seriously, those things are monsters.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: nurtsi on March 11, 2009, 12:27:04 PM
Men are upside-down triangles. Women are hourglasses. I think we learned this at school.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on March 11, 2009, 04:28:59 PM
Yeah, but it just seems like aesthetics. Just like most notions of facial beauty. We're all supposed to have square jaws, furrowed brows, big squared bottom lips, and v-shaped torsos. Sounds like a bunch of bullshit. I've always wondered about this.. what the "ideal" human shape might be, what would be good for surviving in a prehistoric age, where you were fighting off beasts and/or chasing after them.. wtf use would some burly ass superman shape do for you? You'd be slow and have a bunch of muscle in areas that'd just get in your way. You could barely run and barely move your arms. You might be a deterrence at best, but more than likely, you'd probably get your ass owned quick, and just be a tasty dinner for some other animal. And if you look at a human skeleton, there's no support for it (not that you can't do it, just that the underlying frame is different).

(http://faculty.cns.uni.edu/~rothm/gorilla3.jpg)

If you look at the gorilla frame though, it's basically the same as they are built with flesh. It seems like something a Lee or a Muhammad Ali was doing was more ideal/natural for the human frame. In their activities, they show it as well. Both of them were simultaneously lightning quick, agile, had massive endurance, and were powerful.. things that would have easily placed them as cream of the crop killers even back then.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on March 12, 2009, 05:13:11 AM
[edit] Bah, fuck it. I'm gonna stop talking about martial arts fitness here.

Postcount ++ :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Mosesandstick on March 12, 2009, 02:56:23 PM
Are you talking about fitness from a fighting viewpoint or a sport viewpoint?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on March 12, 2009, 04:58:21 PM
I think he's talking about...figuring out what your real goal is, and then perfect your body for that task.  Shit, I think that's what we're all sort of talking about.

Stray, the MA stuff is interesting, no need to stop posting on it.  The Bruce Lee angle is fascinating.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on March 12, 2009, 09:30:41 PM
Yeah, that's a simple way of putting it. Thanks. I can get a bit too convoluted for my own good sometimes.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on March 16, 2009, 10:33:49 AM
For anyone looking for a tracking program, you may want to take a look at www.fitday.com (http://www.fitday.com).  Counts calories and all nutritional values, as well as an exercise tracker, weight tracker, etc.  I've only begun to toy around, but it appears to be potentially awesome.  The food search function is a bit annoying, but I'm guessing it gets easier as you add to your personal log of stuff.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on March 16, 2009, 07:58:43 PM
Stray, the MA stuff is interesting, no need to stop posting on it.  The Bruce Lee angle is fascinating.

OK, here's one more thing.. Anyone know anything about "PHA" (http://www.nasmpro.com/nasmpro/library/showarticle.aspx?id=4896) (Peripheral Heart Action)? It's another thing Lee adopted, instead of working out the typical way through multiple random sets. The principle is similar to circuit, but basically just about alternating your exercises between Upper Body and Lower Body.

Quote
This method of training forces the blood to quickly circulate through the body, increasing caloric expenditure and theorized to decrease body fat and increase muscle mass.

Overall, circuit training (in general) has been shown to increase caloric expenditure in comparison to similar traditional resistance training where a client may rest up to 90 seconds in between sets. Key benefits of using a circuit training system such as peripheral heart action system include enhancing an aerobic base for clients, while simultaneously challenging local muscle endurance.  Many clients may not be familiar with peripheral heart action training and thus, may have concerns about whether they can sustain the activity or whether or not they will be able to build muscle using this type of program.  We will address these questions for you.

Most healthy individuals can perform this type of training.  Whether your client wants to lose body fat, or increase muscle tone – this system of training can work for them.  With increased movement comes increased caloric burn.  This form of training gives weight loss clients “more bang for their buck.”  This system can even be used for bodybuilders or recreational exercisers who wish to increase hypertrophy. While the rest periods between exercises may be greatly reduced (or non existent) this meets the requirements for hypertrophy.  In fact, most individuals seeking hypertrophy tend to rest too long in between sets and lift too heavy to train appropriately for their desired goals.  Remember that several factors are required for hypertrophy (high levels of volume with minimal rest periods force cellular changes that result in an overall increase in muscle size) – volume (3-5 sets; 6-12 repetitions; 2:0:2 repetition tempo), frequency (3-6 times a week), intensity (75-85 percent of 1 rep max), rest (0-60 s), and proper nutrition (please see the article archive for nutritional requirements for Hypertrophy).  As you can see, the PHA system works well for hypertrophy clients, allowing the proper rest and volume to achieve the desired goal – while even adding in a bonus of saving some time!

Athletes may receive the best benefit from PHA training.  While endurance athletes must still engage in aerobic activity that significantly increases their maximal oxygen consumption, circuit training (which includes PHA training) increases maximal oxygen consumption 4-8 percent (significantly less than cardiovascular conditioning programs, but important in increasing local muscular endurance).(2,3)

[edit] Random link btw.. if it sounds too "market-y", I apologize.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on March 17, 2009, 07:23:56 AM
It sounds too markety in one respect:  I don't get it.  How is it actually different than circuit training?  Also, unless I misunderstand, some of those principles seem to be in conflict with bodybuilding concepts, although it claims it can work for that purpose as well.  I suspect it is great for a balance of cardio/muscle toning.  But again, I'm not sure I'm even understanding what it is.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on March 17, 2009, 07:54:19 AM
No, it's not bodybuilding, correct. Although we'd probably have to define "bodybuilding". I mean, it's still resistance, and you will build muscle, so long as follow general diet guidelines.. So it's bodybuilding in the technical sense. Hell, practically anything is bodybuilding to people who don't exercise, so whatever.  :grin: But it's really weightlifting functioning as intense cardio. It is a circuit routine, but one with a theory in mind that the body benefits the most when blood is flowing to all parts of the body equally. I'm just mentioning it.. I don't know all of the details. I know that it was first popularized by a former Mr. Universe, who was obviously a bodybuilder.. which is how Lee got wind of it. Lee's probably the biggest name associated with it though. And it isn't marketing.. It's a 40 year old routine, developed by a scientist. Not a company.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on March 17, 2009, 08:14:17 AM
Okay, I get it now (saw your link before your ninja-edit :awesome_for_real:).  I suppose if you lifted heavy enough, it would build muscle to a degree.  Not in line with my current goals, but interesting nonetheless.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on March 17, 2009, 08:20:05 AM
I edited, because those were just routines. Not informative enough. I've only mentioned it because of Lee, but it's interesting to hear this guy Bob Gajda (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/bob_gajda_interview.htm) (the Mr. Universe in question who popularized it). He badmouths a lot of modern age principles, but I bet he's on to something. He got where he was back then without even a fraction of the crazy shit dudes do to themselves these days (you can say the same for Lee, even though he was smaller).


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on March 17, 2009, 08:45:57 AM
Actually, you want to read the end of that interview if you're actually interested in it. It's kind of over my head, but pretty cool. I thought it was just about bloodflow, but it's about all fluids. And according to him, it is bodybuilding.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: SnakeCharmer on March 18, 2009, 11:47:21 PM
A bit of an update with 2.5 weeks or so to go...

Phenomenal results. 

Current weight is 181.  Dropped 13 inches off my waist (down to 33), 2 inches off my neck (down to 16.5), 8 inches off my hips (down to 35).  Chest measures in at 43.5 inches.  Right thigh is 22.25, left thigh is 22".  Arms come in at just shy of 16 inches.  I don't quite have the six pack, and I still have just a tiny bit of love handles, but I figure those will never go away unless I do some massive cutting, which I won't do.

I've had to get an entirely new wardrobe and new suits.  As soon as I figure out what my son (or wife) has done with the cord to hook up the digicamera, I'll grab some pics.

To be fair, I've cheated a bit, and I probably should come clean with it.  After a couple weeks, I ended up hiring a nutritionist to come to my house and clean out our pantries and show us how/where to shop.  We've gone to nearly 100 percent 'organic' stuff, cut sugar and salt entirely (or as much as humanly possible).  It was troubling to see all my favorite (bad) foods being tossed out, but it was what was needed to be done.  We had gotten into really bad eating habits (actually mine basically had continued since college when I was working out twice a day and could eat anything and everything).  We eat nothing fried, I've cut my red meat intake to minimal amounts and have drastically upped my fish and chicken intake (mostly fish these days).  Lots of veggies.  Some fruits, but mostly veggies.  Lots and lots of water or water/gatorade mix (about 70/30).  I tried a soda yesterday and it was so disgustingly sweet I couldn't finish 1/4 of it - it also made me feel uncomfortably bloated.  I haven't had a fast food burger in weeks - hell, I haven't had anything fast food since it started.  Not sure if I could eat it without hurling.

I also hired a personal trainer to come and observe me working out to ensure that my technique was sound.  To be fair, I'm naturally a very athletic guy.  I have large core muscles, that are naturally built for power.  I'm not an endurance guy.  Never have been.  Even for my size, I'm much quicker than average, and have always had very high hand/eye coordination.  I've always excelled at sports; I played Div I baseball at University of Alabama (starting SS 3 out of 4 years), and if I were a tad bit faster, probably could have played Div I football <somewhere>.  I was looked at to play football at several Div II schools, and a handful of Div I schools, but baseball provided the ride through school, so that's what I played.  Point is, I'm not (nor have I always been) some dumpy overweight guy that just had a miraculous turnaround with an infomercial workout system.  So, in that respect, it's not really in me (so to speak) to be a fatbody.  No one in my family, either immediate or extended is as heavy as I was, or even proportionally so.  We all come from pretty good stock.  My brother played Div II football, my father played in the minor leagues for a couple years until his father died in a car wreck.  And as the oldest of a family of six, he gave up baseball to come home and run the family businesses.  My mother was a gymnast.  We all come from pretty good stock.

I think the biggest thing for me was my eating habits.  I ate too fast, which lead to overeating because I ate too fast.  I ate at irregular intervals.  Didn't eat breakfast, didn't have snacks, during the day, ate too late.  I was perpetually dehydrated.  My weight gain in my neck started causing sleep apnea (also related to smoking).  The sleep apnea compounded the weight gain issue, and I gained more weight due to insufficient rest.  A couple years ago, when I tested for sleep apnea, I was having something like 80 sleep apnea episodes an hour, and my blood oxygen level was dropping into the 70's percentage's, if memory serves.  When I opened up my company, I spent many a night entertaining clients - which meant heavy, long dinners with lots of alcohol - scotch and bourbon in particular.  Lots of travel.  So, I had a number of factors working against me healthwise. 

But what the P90X diet and eating program (and the nutritionist) did was effectively teach me how and what to eat again.  My wife and I relearned how to cook.  How to prepare foods.  How to recognize when I wasn't hungry anymore, and to make myself stop.  We even bought smaller plates.  So much of it for me is perception.  Growing up, the rule around the house was 'clean your plate'.  I've never been a big sweet eater, so that wasn't an issue - although I've got a wicked weakness for Reeses miniatures.  Put a bag of those in front of me, and I turn into a human Dyson vacuum.  I stocked the kitchen at my office with the necessary foods and snacks, and rarely ever ate a meal out during lunch unless it was with a customer or a vendor.  And even then, I ate very lightly.  Maybe a piece of grilled fish or chicken, and a salad.   

In many ways, the weight gain I had a secondary negative impact as far as my personality went.  I became distant from friends, disliked going out to social functions, and it really sent me into a withdrawn state.  I had zero energy.  Rather than getting out and doing stuff - whether it was golf, fishing, working in the yard, I had developed a very bad couch potato syndrome - whether it was sitting on the couch or in front of my computer after work, and after everyone went to bed.  Staying up too late, not getting enough rest.  I had zero patience; even my 'online' persona became that of a complete asshole.  Bitter at everyone, hating everything.  The reality of it is, I hated myself, projected that outward to everyone and everything.  I was a tyrant at work.  Constant fighting with my wife.

It's been a radical lifestyle change back to where I was, say, 5 or 8 years ago.  And for me, it's been all for the better.  I spend less time online.  Less time gaming.  More time outside, being active.  I spend more time with friends - whether it's helping them with whatever, or if it's a social gathering.  I've gotten to know some old friends again that I'd lost touch with.  I couldn't tell you the last time I played my 360, or even fired up Steam.   I don't think I'll ever play another MMO, heh.  I can keep up with my 2 year old son.  Play tennis with and against my wife again.  I've started playing golf again, walking 9 holes every other day, and 18 every Saturday morning at daybreak either solo or with a regular foursome of guys I've met at the course.  I had forgotten how much I enjoyed walking the course, much less playing.  Dusted off my old Ping walking bag and tossed my Titleist cart bag into the closet.  Totally quit smoking. 

tl;dr version:  Started P90X, achieved fantastic results - loses 40 pounds in 10 weeks.  Drastic lifestyle change.  Man turns life around.  Becomes nicer and better person. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: schild on March 19, 2009, 12:09:02 AM
You're a 33 waist at 181? Wow. How tall are you? I was a 34 at 228. I need to lose some weight since my diet I gained back 10 quickly (inevitable) but I constantly hover around 235, still fit into all the 34s and 36 pants I bought along with everything else.

Also, what you just described isn't cheating "a bit," it's pure professional help. :awesome_for_real: I can barely afford ramen.

Edit: (I did not become a nicer guy after losing 70 lbs, but then, I wasn't angry because I was fat, the fat had nothing to do with it, I'm angry because humanity is stupid, and losing some more weight ain't gonna make them less stupid). Also, all of this is a lot easier when you have a woman around kicking your ass to get it done, there's absolutely no question that it makes all the difference in the world.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: lamaros on March 19, 2009, 12:20:41 AM
Good discipline and maturity to get help, listen to it, and follow it through, though.

Have you stopped being a racist dick, along with all the other behavioural changes?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Mosesandstick on March 19, 2009, 01:48:18 AM
Nice story.

The food we eat and the habits we develop when we're young have such a big influence and most of us don't realise it. Getting help is always a good thing - if you're not in a position to get professional help just try and do something with a friend for motivational reasons.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on March 19, 2009, 08:25:38 AM
Stuff...

Thanks for the followup.  That's a wonderful story and I hope people here are paying attention. 

Funny thing is that you've described my eating and lifestyle pretty well.  Except the social part...  I still mostly hate people.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: MrHat on March 19, 2009, 09:03:57 AM
In many ways, the weight gain I had a secondary negative impact as far as my personality went.  I became distant from friends, disliked going out to social functions, and it really sent me into a withdrawn state.  I had zero energy.  Rather than getting out and doing stuff - whether it was golf, fishing, working in the yard, I had developed a very bad couch potato syndrome - whether it was sitting on the couch or in front of my computer after work, and after everyone went to bed.  Staying up too late, not getting enough rest.  I had zero patience; even my 'online' persona became that of a complete asshole.  Bitter at everyone, hating everything.  The reality of it is, I hated myself, projected that outward to everyone and everything.  I was a tyrant at work.  Constant fighting with my wife.

That's the huge thing I noticed last year when I dropped about 40 (Thanks Nebu!).  All those little things had started spiraling so that I had become hugely withdrawn.

Really, I'm so happy that you are up and about and enjoying your life more.  Mad congrats!

Now, if I could find somewhere to hook up a pull up bar... :)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on March 19, 2009, 09:27:54 AM
My own little mini update:  I've been cutting weight for about ten days.  Have lost about 9 pounds already - most of which within the first couple of days, due to all the excess water.  Still it's probably coming off a little too quickly, but I think that's because I became so proficient at shedding weight last year that I am struggling to figure out how to do it slowly.  An odd problem to have, I know.

The good news is that I believe my cutting phase will be much, much shorter than I expected and I do appear to be keeping the muscle for the most part.  I thought I was going to have to do it for a couple months, but it will be more like 2 or 3 weeks.  I haven't lost any strength so far, and I don't think I will.  That seems to be partly the result of the diet I'm on, which still keeps the protein and fat (good fat, duh) intake pretty high, but keeping the carb intake limited to around 100g a day.  Let me tell you - I know that there are more extreme low carb diets - but keeping it down to around 100g a day is fucking hard.  Even a lot of otherwise healthy snacks are just out for now. 

As far as the workouts go, I've essentially kept the same program of lifting weights (geared more for maintaining the strength rather than constantly increasing strength during the bulking phase) and added a little bit of cardio (kickboxing) every day to burn a few more calories.  And it's a good thing that I'm not trying to gain strength and size at the moment, because I have essentially maxed out my home gym, except for a few isolation exercises.  Yes, I've beaten my home gym.  Ah well...it served its initial purpose, and I surely didn't know how hard this bug was going to bite me.  There is a Power Rack on the horizon for when I begin my next bulking phase in a few weeks.  I really can't wait.  It's weird, because I used to be such a lazy fuck, but now I am going all OCD.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: schild on March 19, 2009, 09:37:28 AM
Quote
Let me tell you - I know that there are more extreme low carb diets - but keeping it down to around 100g a day is fucking hard.

Try keeping it to ~0G for 15 weeks when you weigh 300+. :awesome_for_real:

I need to diet again, just because I'd love to drop 35 and hit 200.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on March 19, 2009, 09:42:56 AM
0g carb diets may work, but they're terrible from a biochemical standpoint.  Your brain burns primarily glucose.  Forcing the body to manufacture glucose from fat and protein is asking for all kind of trouble unless you are smart about knowing EXACTLY what's going in the pie hole. 

Going on a diet is always a bad idea.  Permanently changing your diet is the key to long-term success. 

*Schild, you're an exception because you have some superhuman ability to stick with ridiculous denial diets. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: schild on March 19, 2009, 09:46:17 AM
It helps that I fucking love meat and soy enough to just stop caring. As a gamer, I find it ridiculously easy to diet when I have the funds to support a diet. I have gained back a minimal amount of weight because I can't afford quality food. It sucks ass.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on March 19, 2009, 09:50:42 AM
Yeah, the thing I like least about doing all this bulking and cutting is that I know it isn't great from a nutritional standpoint.  It's a rollercoaster ride for the body.  I'm going to try and take it easier for my next bulking phase, so that I can avoid too much of the fact gain and keep a more sensible diet.

But while we're on the topic, what would you say, Nebu, about the 100g carb approach?  I can see with my own eyes that it works, but is it still too few?  It seems like too few.  I wouldn't want to do it for long.  Can't even eat hardly any damn fruit, and I love me some fruit.  Not too mention my pretzel addiction.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on March 19, 2009, 09:54:40 AM
Just think of it of not making it so hard on itself, foodwise, if you just do something to burn those carbs a little more. They're meant for burning, so there's no need to cut down to an intolerable level. In your case Cyrexx, then it sounds like you're being intense enough with exercise, then it's unnecessary. Besides, carbs go hand in hand with protein when lifting weights. They are a good thing. Honestly, I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on March 19, 2009, 09:55:56 AM
Here's the simple truth:  After a workout your body needs carbs.  The key is to deliver them in the right package.  Same goes for proteins.  Get to know and understand how your body deals with different carbs and proteins and you'll be able to eat better.  Complex carbs generate a slow release of insulin due to a slower delivery rate.  That makes them a great way to get the sugars your body needs (especially post workout) without creating a feeling that you crave more carbs.  Mono- and disaccharides will trigger huge insulin releases that last beyond carb intake making you crave more carbs.  This is where most people fall down.

Another thing I've learned that helps during the cut phase is that your body adjusts to caloric intake about every two weeks.  I've done some playing with high/low calorie diets and found that you can eat high calories for two weeks and become very anabolic.  After this, I would cut calories hard for two weeks and it would drive off the fat without crashing my metabolism.  The key is always maintaining high quality calories.  Lean proteins, complex carbs, and lots of water.  When you cut calories (say to the 1500 level), your body will slow your metabolism after 2 weeks to compensate for the fasting state.  If you can get calories back up after two weeks, the body never reaches fasting state.

Last tip: 5 - 6 small meals a day.  Regulates blood sugar and keeps metabolic rate more consistent.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on March 19, 2009, 10:02:56 AM
I get all that, but some...."research"....seems to indicate that the best way to keep muscle and target the fat is to keep the carbs as low as possible, whilst continuing to keep relatively high levels of protein and (counterintuitively) fat consumption.  In my very short experience so far, it seems to be true.  I can feel that I have a bit less energy to burn during workouts, motivational willpower tends to make up for that.  OTOH, I seem to be so proficient at cutting weight that I could probably stand to eat more carbs.  In any event, consider it an academic discussion.  I am curious to hear Nebu's view on this more from a physiological stanpoint.

Fake edit:  posting this before reading Nebu's response.

Real edit:  thanks Nebu, that's a lot of great info.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on March 19, 2009, 10:11:29 AM
If you cut carbs you will always lose 20-30% muscle in the process of burning fat stores.  Understanding basic catabolic metabolism will tell you this.  Carbs are the short term fuel source.  You want carbs.  The key is getting just the right amount and type of carbs.  Too much = bad.  Too little = bad.  Balanced carbs of the right type coupled to a low fat, high protein diet is the key.  There really are no shortcuts to this. 

Also, make sure that you are getting your B vitamins.  They are VITAL to metabolism.  Don't overdo it, but make sure you're getting 100% of what you need for supplements.  ADEK should be at 100% and the water solubles (B and C) can be a bit over since you'll just urinate off any excess.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on March 19, 2009, 10:20:17 AM
Again, thanks for taking the time.

Without supplements, my diet seems to generally be giving me most of the vitams and minerals I need, so I'm less worried about that part.  It is essentially a healthy diet, with the possible exception that I'm being too anal about the carbs.  I probably cut more calories in general than I need to, for essentially the same reason.

My bulking diet on the other hand... :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on March 19, 2009, 10:41:35 AM
Yet another "Lee Anecdote" (I don't mean to sound like a broken record.. I'm just currently interested in how it worked out for him) - It's interesting that supposedly he was a big pasta and noodle eater. According to his wife at least. He didn't know shit about cooking or nutrition according to her, so she prepared his meals. Yet he maintained peak quality until he died. I doubt that he fluctuated any more than between 3 and 6 percent body fat when you look at his all his pics, and he did it for that long (it's one thing to get cut, it's another to maintain it... even Leonidas is complaining now about his beerbelly).


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: schild on March 19, 2009, 11:08:44 AM
Yet another "Lee Anecdote" (I don't mean to sound like a broken record.. I'm just currently interested in how it worked out for him) - It's interesting that supposedly he was a big pasta and noodle eater. According to his wife at least. He didn't know shit about cooking or nutrition according to her, so she prepared his meals. Yet he maintained peak quality until he died. I doubt that he fluctuated any more than between 3 and 6 percent body fat when you look at his all his pics, and he did it for that long (it's one thing to get cut, it's another to maintain it... even Leonidas is complaining now about his beerbelly).
Bruce Lee, 1. Is asian, and 2. Worked out harder than anyone on this board ever will. He could probably eat any goddamn thing he wanted, so it's not particularly "interesting" as you put it. Heh.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on March 19, 2009, 11:21:16 AM
True enough. Heh. He definitely worked out a shitload. As for the genetics, he used to be a little soft (relatively speaking.. he wasn't defined, I mean). The famous story where the chinese sent a representative to kick his ass for teaching white people kung-fu is supposedly what sparked his interest in fitness (fitness outside martial arts). He immediately gained an advantage in the fight with a blow, but had the guy running all over the place.. Until Lee finally caught up with him and made him submit. So he was already a top martial artist, just by technique alone. But the people there said he was pissed -- he was upset that it took him 3 minutes to take that guy out, and that he was winded from chasing him around. So this was a turning point or something. [edit] I'm gonna drive myself crazy looking for it, but there was a quote where he was complaining that he was really out of shape when he was younger and even had a belly himself.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: SnakeCharmer on March 19, 2009, 01:03:41 PM
You're a 33 waist at 181? Wow. How tall are you? I was a 34 at 228. I need to lose some weight since my diet I gained back 10 quickly (inevitable) but I constantly hover around 235, still fit into all the 34s and 36 pants I bought along with everything else.

I'm 5'10" on a good day.  I'm very...what's the best word to describe my body type...compact?  It's like I should be about 6'2" or so, but someone squashed me down a bit.  I've also got freakishly big thunderthighs and calves, and carry a good bit of weight there.  Very little fat there now, but still.  I have a powerlifters physique.  Even when I was in the absolute best shape of my life back in college, I had a 31-32 inch waist.

There's no telling how much my watermelon head weighs.  And I've lost so much weight in my face, I'm seriously considering having plastic surgery done on my ears to make them lay back like they normally should.  Basically this:


I've always hated my ears, and wanted to have it done.

Also, that measurement is done where I wear my pants.  About one inch below the belly button.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Hindenburg on March 19, 2009, 01:48:44 PM
Do the surgery. Your ears are horrendous.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: SnakeCharmer on March 20, 2009, 10:19:03 AM
Your FACE is horrendous!


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Hindenburg on March 20, 2009, 10:21:55 AM
And yet you lust for it.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: MrHat on March 23, 2009, 05:10:40 PM
Ignore me.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Hindenburg on March 23, 2009, 07:09:12 PM
Your image link died.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: slog on March 23, 2009, 08:30:42 PM
Didn't read the thread, but did someone post a link to the study recently released that basicly said "it doesn't matter if you consume carbs, no carbs, fats, whatever.  All that matters is calories in and calories out"

If not, here you go http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/25/lowcarb-lowfat-study-find_n_170056.html





Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: MrHat on March 23, 2009, 08:50:41 PM
Didn't read the thread, but did someone post a link to the study recently released that basicly said "it doesn't matter if you consume carbs, no carbs, fats, whatever.  All that matters is calories in and calories out"

If not, here you go http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/25/lowcarb-lowfat-study-find_n_170056.html





For weight loss.

It still matters what you eat though.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: slog on March 23, 2009, 08:54:51 PM
Didn't read the thread, but did someone post a link to the study recently released that basicly said "it doesn't matter if you consume carbs, no carbs, fats, whatever.  All that matters is calories in and calories out"

If not, here you go http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/25/lowcarb-lowfat-study-find_n_170056.html





For weight loss.

It still matters what you eat though.

Sustainable weight loss in particular.  If you are training for something (I'm currently trying to build up to a marathon) then yes it matters.  I don't think that applies to 95% of the people here.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on March 23, 2009, 10:10:32 PM
It still matters what you eat though.

I'll qualify this. 

1) Nutrients matter. 
2) Fiber matters
3) Insulin release matters

Other than that, they are correct.  It's all about calories in vs BMR.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on March 24, 2009, 06:15:55 AM
certain things are going to aid how you burn said calories. the right amount of carbs will keep you energetic.. and it's just good to cut down as much sodium and cholesterol as possible right now. not just because of the longterm ills, but also because it makes your blood volume increase, and in turn, makes your heart work harder. which in turn again, makes burning said calories and doing exercise harder than it needs to be.

i'm not even sure if it's possible without a complete "like makeover" to cut down sodium to "recommended" levels though - that's the sad thing about it. but we all could afford some cutting down. supposedly - the average american at least - we eat up to 5 to as much as 10 times more sodium than what is suggested. you'd be accomplishing something if you could even get it down to 2 or 3 times as much.  :grin:

[edit] i've been recently thinking of "iife as an rpg". like if you were tweaking efficiency and stats and time dedication and shit. in that respect, most of us are extreme gimps.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on March 24, 2009, 06:59:58 AM
I don't think this is going out on a limb (maybe it is), but I tend to think that women care a great deal more about simply shedding weight, regardless of body composition.  Men seem to care less about actual weight and more about composition.  I'm sure this isn't always true, but that has been my experience. 

Sodium and cholesterol are my bane.  With the cholesterol, I just seem to be genetically inclined to have high cholesterol.  On the bright side, I have managed to significantly increase my "good" cholesterol over the past year.  Sodium...damn you tasty salty snacks!  I don't that I'll ever win that paticular battle. 


[edit] i've been recently thinking of "iife as an rpg". like if you were tweaking efficiency and stats and time dedication and shit. in that respect, most of us are extreme gimps.

I'm just hoping to get my mount soon.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on March 24, 2009, 07:16:54 AM
I have pretty shoddy armor. But my real problem is spending too much time in the auction house, buying pointless shit, and switching my classes too much. Very little mission completion and nothing to show for whatever hard work I've done. :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: slog on March 24, 2009, 07:21:20 AM
certain things are going to aid how you burn said calories. the right amount of carbs will keep you energetic.. and it's just good to cut down as much sodium and cholesterol as possible right now. not just because of the longterm ills, but also because it makes your blood volume increase, and in turn, makes your heart work harder. which in turn again, makes burning said calories and doing exercise harder than it needs to be.

i'm not even sure if it's possible without a complete "like makeover" to cut down sodium to "recommended" levels though - that's the sad thing about it. but we all could afford some cutting down. supposedly - the average american at least - we eat up to 5 to as much as 10 times more sodium than what is suggested. you'd be accomplishing something if you could even get it down to 2 or 3 times as much.  :grin:

[edit] i've been recently thinking of "iife as an rpg". like if you were tweaking efficiency and stats and time dedication and shit. in that respect, most of us are extreme gimps.

I think the whole point of the study was to say "No this isn't true" or "it doesn't really matter in the long term"


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on March 24, 2009, 07:33:05 AM
Um, that entire article says absolutely nothing of substance.  The only thing it even gets close to saying is what we already knew...consume fewer calories than you burn, and you will lose weight.  There is nothing even remotely remarkable about that.  But it doesn't tell the whole story.

Also, people struggle to lose weight mostly because people really aren't trying very hard.  And this just in:  people gain all their weight back because they have not changed their body composition (BMR, metabolism), and then they go right back to consuming too many calories. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: slog on March 24, 2009, 07:42:35 AM
Um, that entire article says absolutely nothing of substance.  The only thing it even gets close to saying is what we already knew...consume fewer calories than you burn, and you will lose weight.  There is nothing even remotely remarkable about that.  But it doesn't tell the whole story.

But it does tell us quite a bit.  It tells us the other stuff doesn't really matter. It's all about calories and nothing else.  To be successful, you have to consume less calories than you burn.  Period.  Everything else is BS.

Quote

Also, people struggle to lose weight mostly because people really aren't trying very hard.  And this just in:  people gain all their weight back because they have not changed their body composition (BMR, metabolism), and then they go right back to consuming too many calories. 

I disagree here.  I believe lots of people try hard and fail.  Here is my purely anecdotal theory:  People are idiots.  What's the first thing that most people I know do to lose weight?

The join a gym or buy Cardio exercise equipment.  And they lose 5 pounds for the first two weeks.  What they don't realize is that Cardio is fairly worthless by itself when it comes to losing weight in the long term.  Walk in any Gym, and look where the fat people are. 

They are almost always on the Cardio machines.  The fit people are doing resistance/weight training.  The problem with Cardio is that it gets too easy.  People actually believe those calorie burnt meters.  A fit person burns a lot less calories than a fatty on the elliptical.  And as they do it more, they will burn less and less.

And in the meantime, they still eat like idiots.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on March 24, 2009, 07:43:48 AM
certain things are going to aid how you burn said calories. the right amount of carbs will keep you energetic.. and it's just good to cut down as much sodium and cholesterol as possible right now. not just because of the longterm ills, but also because it makes your blood volume increase, and in turn, makes your heart work harder. which in turn again, makes burning said calories and doing exercise harder than it needs to be.

i'm not even sure if it's possible without a complete "like makeover" to cut down sodium to "recommended" levels though - that's the sad thing about it. but we all could afford some cutting down. supposedly - the average american at least - we eat up to 5 to as much as 10 times more sodium than what is suggested. you'd be accomplishing something if you could even get it down to 2 or 3 times as much.  :grin:

[edit] i've been recently thinking of "iife as an rpg". like if you were tweaking efficiency and stats and time dedication and shit. in that respect, most of us are extreme gimps.

I think the whole point of the study was to say "No this isn't true" or "it doesn't really matter in the long term"


Sorry, I'll admit to not reading it. I thought it was just a rule of thumb sort of suggestion about the primacy of exercise. Which is true. To say what we eat doesn't really matter though would be silly. They go hand in hand. It might be safe to say that too many people want all of their good results from just diet, and that they should just exercise more -- but exercise needs it's only kind of fuels too. You are doing a two steps forward, one step back deal by carrying on a typical (bad) diet, yet exercising. And depending on what kind of exercise we're talking about, it can vary greatly. High protein is needed to build muscle, for instance. You wouldn't be getting the results you wanted if you lifted all day, but didn't have enough protein in your diet. Or if you simply wanted to lose weight, you wouldn't be getting the results you wanted by consuming tons of carbs either. The amount of carbs in a typical diet is simply too much -- and if you kept eating them, even while exercising, some of them aren't going to get burned -- and in turn, converted to fat stores. That's just how physiology works. It's not a mystery.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on March 24, 2009, 08:09:14 AM
When the article says it "doesn't really matter", it is true when it comes to simply losing weight.  My counterpoint is that it matters a great deal what kind of weight your are losing, and whether or not you want to keep it off.  Or for that matter, it doesn't even ask the question of whether or not weight loss should even be the goal.  A highly irresponsible article, all in all.

Fat people on the cardio machines are people who are still consuming too many calories and not burning enough of them.  When I say they aren't trying hard enough, I mean it.  They would probably also be better served working their muscles as well as working their cardio....cardio burns calories RIGHT NOW.  Muscles burn calories ALL DAY LONG.  Also, muscle weighs more than fat, which is more than just hyperbole...it literally means that you can appear leaner than you currently are while maintaining a similar body weight....it has a secondary benefit of wrapping itself close to your body, unlike fat.  Shit, it it makes the question of how much you weigh to be moot.  People should worry more about body composition, and less about absolute weight totals. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: slog on March 24, 2009, 08:48:01 AM
When the article says it "doesn't really matter", it is true when it comes to simply losing weight.  My counterpoint is that it matters a great deal what kind of weight your are losing, and whether or not you want to keep it off.  Or for that matter, it doesn't even ask the question of whether or not weight loss should even be the goal.  A highly irresponsible article, all in all.

Fat people on the cardio machines are people who are still consuming too many calories and not burning enough of them.  When I say they aren't trying hard enough, I mean it.  They would probably also be better served working their muscles as well as working their cardio....cardio burns calories RIGHT NOW.  Muscles burn calories ALL DAY LONG.  Also, muscle weighs more than fat, which is more than just hyperbole...it literally means that you can appear leaner than you currently are while maintaining a similar body weight....it has a secondary benefit of wrapping itself close to your body, unlike fat.  Shit, it it makes the question of how much you weigh to be moot.  People should worry more about body composition, and less about absolute weight totals. 

I think we are saying the same thing here (you are just saying it better)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on April 13, 2009, 09:22:02 AM
Mini update.  Bought a Power Rack (for safe squats), a 300 lb Olympic bar/weight set and a bench.  I've simply outgrown the cheap little single station I bought, and it wasn't letting my do anything to mimic the squats.  And holy fuck did I need it...the first day I did squats in my new rack had me hobbling like an old geezer for almost five days afterwards.  Getting better now, but damn...I was neglecting my legs a little more than I thought.  Rack is real good for all kinds of bench press exercises, military presses and pull-ups/chin-ups.  Very happy.

I don't really know what my goal is, at the moment.  I didn't quite cut all the body fat I wanted to cut, but with the new weight set I don't think I can resist starting another bulking phase.  Right now I'm kind of hovering a little.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on April 13, 2009, 10:18:30 AM
Mini update.  Bought a Power Rack (for safe squats), a 300 lb Olympic bar/weight set and a bench.  I've simply outgrown the cheap little single station I bought, and it wasn't letting my do anything to mimic the squats.  And holy fuck did I need it...the first day I did squats in my new rack had me hobbling like an old geezer for almost five days afterwards.  Getting better now, but damn...I was neglecting my legs a little more than I thought.  Rack is real good for all kinds of bench press exercises, military presses and pull-ups/chin-ups.  Very happy.

I don't really know what my goal is, at the moment.  I didn't quite cut all the body fat I wanted to cut, but with the new weight set I don't think I can resist starting another bulking phase.  Right now I'm kind of hovering a little.

Another thing about a good squat rack:  It's VERY versatile.  You can easily build a dip station using the safety bars and if you have a top bar, you can use it for pullups with a variety of grips.  Get yourself a 2x4 and you can also work your calves.  If I had a better home gym I'd have a four things: a good incline bench that can be used for abs/decline work, a squat rack, a stationary bike, and a treadmill that can get to a 15 degree incline. 

If you want to build muscle mass, make sure that you gear your workouts for intensity.  I lift 4 times a week and my workouts are short (30-40 mins).  The goal is to have a short, high-intensity abuse of targeted groups (M/Thurs = Chest, shoulders, calves; Tues/Fri = Arms, back, quads).  I never do more than 5-6 reps of any exercise and I typically do 4-5 sets.  The key is to work to failure in 5 reps.  Any more than that and you're building muscle stamina, not mass.

I'm going to try something radical for the 12 weeks this summer.  I'm going to abandon my strength training for an all natural program.  Dips, pullups, pushups, etc.  with a lot of mileage.  I want to see how my body adjusts to a more utilitarian workout regiment.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on April 13, 2009, 10:41:26 AM
Please to be explaining how to convert the safety bars into something I can use for dips.  That's the one thing I'm missing.  My triceps aren't really much of a problem though, as I have alternatives and for whatever reason, my triceps have always been one of the better defined muscles on my body.

I am currently doing 4 sets at moderately intense levels as I sort of get my muscles used to the free weights.  I guess I don't have a real strict regimen at the moment, as I am basically just "finding my range" with the new equipment for now and trying to figure out what my current goals need to be.  Once I do, It'll probably be pyramid sets (1x10, 1x8, 2x6, 1x8, 1x10) where the 2 sets of 6 are at heavy weight and to failure.  This seems to work well for me, though I may cut out the two 1x8 sets as I'm not sure they add anything.

Also, what are you doing for calves?  Something with a 2x4?



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on April 13, 2009, 11:38:15 AM
Please to be explaining how to convert the safety bars into something I can use for dips. 

Also, what are you doing for calves?  Something with a 2x4?

1) Make two bars that attach perpendicular to the safety bars.  Using clamps, you can adjust the width to your liking. Or you can just buy something like these:

(http://store.valueweb.com/bwproducts/catalog/R04BD%20Store%20Photo.jpg)

2) Take a 2x4 and bolt it to a thick board.  Stand on it with your toes and use your squat weight for calves.

(http://www.healthbrands.com.au/resources/stand_calf_raises.gif)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on April 13, 2009, 12:24:39 PM
Hmm, I think attaching them to the safeties would be a potential problem.  Hmm.  I'll think about it.  Then again, I don't think I really need the dips.

The 2x4 thing is obvious, in hindsight.  I had visions of something far crazier and torturous.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: slog on April 13, 2009, 12:58:52 PM
Mini update.  Bought a Power Rack (for safe squats), a 300 lb Olympic bar/weight set and a bench.  I've simply outgrown the cheap little single station I bought, and it wasn't letting my do anything to mimic the squats.  And holy fuck did I need it...the first day I did squats in my new rack had me hobbling like an old geezer for almost five days afterwards.  Getting better now, but damn...I was neglecting my legs a little more than I thought.  Rack is real good for all kinds of bench press exercises, military presses and pull-ups/chin-ups.  Very happy.

I don't really know what my goal is, at the moment.  I didn't quite cut all the body fat I wanted to cut, but with the new weight set I don't think I can resist starting another bulking phase.  Right now I'm kind of hovering a little.

Another thing about a good squat rack:  It's VERY versatile.  You can easily build a dip station using the safety bars and if you have a top bar, you can use it for pullups with a variety of grips.  Get yourself a 2x4 and you can also work your calves.  If I had a better home gym I'd have a four things: a good incline bench that can be used for abs/decline work, a squat rack, a stationary bike, and a treadmill that can get to a 15 degree incline. 

If you want to build muscle mass, make sure that you gear your workouts for intensity.  I lift 4 times a week and my workouts are short (30-40 mins).  The goal is to have a short, high-intensity abuse of targeted groups (M/Thurs = Chest, shoulders, calves; Tues/Fri = Arms, back, quads).  I never do more than 5-6 reps of any exercise and I typically do 4-5 sets.  The key is to work to failure in 5 reps.  Any more than that and you're building muscle stamina, not mass.

I'm going to try something radical for the 12 weeks this summer.  I'm going to abandon my strength training for an all natural program.  Dips, pullups, pushups, etc.  with a lot of mileage.  I want to see how my body adjusts to a more utilitarian workout regiment.

Every 4 or 5 months my trainer shifts me from a Lean Muscle program (stamina)  to a Muscle Mass building program.  I enjoy the change of pace and I've had good results.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on April 13, 2009, 01:19:20 PM
Every 4 or 5 months my trainer shifts me from a Lean Muscle program (stamina)  to a Muscle Mass building program.  I enjoy the change of pace and I've had good results.

That's encouraging.  I haven't done this radical a change in my workouts since I was in my 20's.  I'm hoping to get back up around 40 miles of road work a week and reshape my body into something a lot more natural.  My diet has been really good, so the extra aerobic work should help me drop to 6% body fat in no time.  Right now, I'm around 10-12% and I feel really sluggish though it is nice to be able to bench and military press the same weight I did at 22.

The hardest thing to maintain is being both big and lean.  I can pack on the muscle by lifting and eating like a madman, but I lose so much muscle mass while cutting.  I think a more aerobic routine may be a better fitness package. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: slog on April 13, 2009, 02:34:13 PM
Every 4 or 5 months my trainer shifts me from a Lean Muscle program (stamina)  to a Muscle Mass building program.  I enjoy the change of pace and I've had good results.

That's encouraging.  I haven't done this radical a change in my workouts since I was in my 20's.  I'm hoping to get back up around 40 miles of road work a week and reshape my body into something a lot more natural.  My diet has been really good, so the extra aerobic work should help me drop to 6% body fat in no time.  Right now, I'm around 10-12% and I feel really sluggish though it is nice to be able to bench and military press the same weight I did at 22.

The hardest thing to maintain is being both big and lean.  I can pack on the muscle by lifting and eating like a madman, but I lose so much muscle mass while cutting.  I think a more aerobic routine may be a better fitness package. 

Actually, I doubt you will get those kind of results.  If you are looking to reduce your fat percentage, then you need to keep building muscle mass.  Cardio only burns calories while you are doing it, where building more muscle mass makes you burn more calories all day. 

In other words, as you lose muscle mass (which you will) you burn less calories.  Now if you are training for a marathon (like I am), but not so fine if you are just trying to lower body fat percentage.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on April 13, 2009, 03:28:24 PM
Actually, I doubt you will get those kind of results.  If you are looking to reduce your fat percentage, then you need to keep building muscle mass.  Cardio only burns calories while you are doing it, where building more muscle mass makes you burn more calories all day. 

In other words, as you lose muscle mass (which you will) you burn less calories.  Now if you are training for a marathon (like I am), but not so fine if you are just trying to lower body fat percentage.

Yes, I understand the metabolism bit very well.  I'm talking about changing my build rather than optimizing my BMR.  Building muscle mass is all fine and good until to try to carry it around during hiking, climbing, and other more aerobic activities.  The added mileage with a more natural approach is to offset the decreased BMR.  If I train more for muscle stamina than for size, I should have improved flexibilty and a lighter load along with a more natural looking physique.  Right now, I'm about 12" bigger in the chest than I am in the waist with pretty big thighs.  It's a pain in the ass to find clothes that fight well in a McDonalds society.  I'd be happy with a smaller and leaner build even if my body fat % stayed around 10% or so. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: LK on April 22, 2009, 06:01:03 PM
God help me, we're doing this in two weeks, and I've decided to join. I'm having a lot of fun with muscle building workouts mixed with running on the treadmill. Diet is super low, but the weight's coming off super slow. I'd like to think it's that way because I'm adding so much muscle.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on April 22, 2009, 06:36:37 PM
If you restrict calories too much, your metabolism will slow to compensate.  Keep your diet within 500 cal of your daily consumption for best results.  Oh... low fat and only complex carbs too. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Strazos on July 03, 2010, 07:26:20 PM
Necro...

So....

Does this thing actually work? Anything you would need to buy beyond the kit itself?

In short, I work too many hours and get home too late (normally) to bother trekking out to some damn gym. An hour a day, in the comfort of my own home/apartment, seems workable.

However, I don't plan on changing my diet to some arcane formula or whatever, though my diet as of now isn't even terrible; I just don't exercise. Would be super-useful to have once I move overseas, where in many places there are no such things as "gyms."


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on July 03, 2010, 07:38:20 PM
I would say that the results are 60% exercise, 40% diet.  If you don't follow the diet, you won't get the results.  I see the same in the gym.  I can lift like a madman, but I only look my best when I watch my diet religiously and drink at least a gallon of water a day.  I'll also warn you that the failure rate for home workout is VERY high.  The advantage of a gym is that once you're there, you feel compelled to make the best of it.  Peer pressure seems to be helpful as well. 



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Strazos on July 03, 2010, 07:55:38 PM
I'm honestly not trying to get terribly cut...just some damn exercise so I don't die from being inactive for months at a time. I'm the heaviest I have ever been (though no one can tell, apparently), and I'd like it to stop.

Plus, following the diet probably requires eating salad or something...that's just not going to happen.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on July 03, 2010, 08:12:45 PM
I'm honestly not trying to get terribly cut...just some damn exercise so I don't die from being inactive for months at a time. I'm the heaviest I have ever been (though no one can tell, apparently), and I'd like it to stop.

Plus, following the diet probably requires eating salad or something...that's just not going to happen.

Calories in > Calories Burned = Weight Gain

That formula doesn't change.   Salad is a useful tool because 1) Veggies have good things for you and 2) It's a high bulk/low caloric meal, so can help maintain a full feeling.     I personally don't do a lot of salad these days, but I do mix in a lot of spinach and other leafy greens and vegetables with my meals to help bulk them out without adding a ton of calories and fat.  

You may need to discover this yourself, I certainly did, but exercising without changing your diet simply is going to lead you into a cycle where you will work out, find yourself starving, and then eat more.  You'll certainly be in better cardiovascular conditioning, but you won't burn fat.    

I didn't do P90X.    Instead, about 2 1/2 years ago, I hit my heaviest point ever.  I bought an ellipitcal, because that's what you do.  I spent 45 minutes on it a day.  I maxed out its resistance and religiously cycled through it's program settings for variety.  

In six months, I lost a total of 5 lbs.   It wasn't until I got serious about both exercise (Strength and cardio at the gym) and diet that I saw the results I wanted.

What I'd recommend if you don't want to get seriously cut, but simply want to up your activity -

Look into something like the couch to 5K program for running and simply make an effort to cut out the worst offenders (Soda and snacks) from your diet.  That alone will probably net you some significant results.  


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Strazos on July 03, 2010, 11:11:57 PM
I should elaborate. My diet isn't the problem; I drink mostly water (though been doing more of that Vitamin Water stuff lately; found a flavor I can tolerate), and my caloric intake is probably not horrific. I also have high metabolism. I've actually started to look at labels when I eat things, and cut out the really egregious stuff like eating Ben and Jerry's when I'm home alone and bored on a weekend.

The problem is sitting in the office for 10-12 hours a day, and then coming home at night and...sitting around.

Also, no outdoor distance running; soft arch makes me practically flatfooted, and I have questionable cartilage in the knees...though for whatever reason, treadmills are fine.



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Sky on July 04, 2010, 12:13:02 AM
I'm a fan of lifestyle workouts. More stairs, park at the far end of the lot. Carry all the grocery bags (hey, I look chivalrous, too!). Find ways to do things the hard way. Chop wood. Use the push mower instead of the riding mower. Shovel anything under 8" of snow.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Arnold on July 04, 2010, 03:02:44 AM
I'm a fan of lifestyle workouts. More stairs, park at the far end of the lot. Carry all the grocery bags (hey, I look chivalrous, too!). Find ways to do things the hard way. Chop wood. Use the push mower instead of the riding mower. Shovel anything under 8" of snow.

That's great and all, but how much wood do you have that needs chopping?  Carrying groceries and walking from the far end of the parking lot doesn't really cut it in the conditioning department for a lot of people.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on July 04, 2010, 08:04:25 AM
I should elaborate. My diet isn't the problem; I drink mostly water (though been doing more of that Vitamin Water stuff lately; found a flavor I can tolerate), and my caloric intake is probably not horrific. I also have high metabolism. I've actually started to look at labels when I eat things, and cut out the really egregious stuff like eating Ben and Jerry's when I'm home alone and bored on a weekend.

The problem is sitting in the office for 10-12 hours a day, and then coming home at night and...sitting around.

Also, no outdoor distance running; soft arch makes me practically flatfooted, and I have questionable cartilage in the knees...though for whatever reason, treadmills are fine.

Treadmills help cushion the impact of your foot so it doesn't stress your joints to the extent that running on asphalt/concrete will. 

Depending on what you have near you, swimming and yoga may be really good alternatives for you to look into. They're both low impact solid cardio workouts that won't require you to spend a ton of cash up front on a home gym.    If you look into a gym membership, spinning classes are also a ridiculously good workout.  Or if you don't want to join a gym, biking in general is a great workout - if you have a good location to ride that is.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Sky on July 04, 2010, 10:12:11 AM
That's great and all, but how much wood do you have that needs chopping?  Carrying groceries and walking from the far end of the parking lot doesn't really cut it in the conditioning department for a lot of people.
Look at how you picked that apart. Nicely done. My point is, if you approach life as a way to burn calories, you can make some decisions that will help you be more fit and healthier. I work with several people who will try to cram in a workout into their lunch break, but take the elevator.

The specifics don't matter, it's being more aware of how you live life and consciously choose the path that will burn more calories every day.

And diet still is an issue if you've 'just started' to look at labels. You have to develop a general plan for each day. I had added a paragraph about my fiancee's Weight Watcher membership that I deleted because she hates when I get too personal about her. But I watch her input her daily meals every night and it's an extremely powerful tool, just like keeping a budget that accounts for your finances can be. Seeing the input and some of the output (point discounts for exercise, we usually walk 45 mins a night), and there's also a tally for your RDA of veg/protein/etc. It's a good overview. Makes me chuckle, too, because although I'm not as concerned about diet as she, I tend to eat almost perfectly by WW standards - I tend to snack on apples and bananas, eat lots of lean protein and really bulk up the dinner plate with veg. The biggest thing I've learned from her is lots more mini-meals and smaller formal meals. And I'm blessed with no sweet tooth.

Even though you don't think diet is an issue, you might want to think about at least getting the WW web sub for a few months to see how it's really impacting the equation. For me personally, I have to watch caloric intake, because although I'm somewhat active, I used to be extremely active, and my body has 30 years of that in its muscle memory. It wants to eat like I'm still unloading trucks and riding my bike for miles followed by some rock climbing and swimming. Which brings me back to trying to find outlets, no matter how small, to burn calories in everyday life. It does add up, even if I'm burning an extra 100 calories a day, that's a "free" beer and over the course of a year is a huge amount of calories burned.

Also, to answer Arnold's question:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Malakili on July 04, 2010, 12:18:13 PM

Even though you don't think diet is an issue, you might want to think about at least getting the WW web sub for a few months to see how it's really impacting the equation.

Yeah, diet is aboslutely critical.  I mean sure, you CAN eat anything you want and still be in great shape, but that tends to be for people doing really crazy amounts of physical activity.  I've always said : Get strong in the gym, get cut in the kitchen.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: NiX on July 04, 2010, 05:29:35 PM
I've always said : Get strong in the gym, get cut in the kitchen.

If you can't wrap your head around this, you're missing the point of staying healthy.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Merusk on July 05, 2010, 09:41:52 AM
I should elaborate. My diet isn't the problem; I drink mostly water (though been doing more of that Vitamin Water stuff lately; found a flavor I can tolerate), and my caloric intake is probably not horrific. I also have high metabolism. I've actually started to look at labels when I eat things, and cut out the really egregious stuff like eating Ben and Jerry's when I'm home alone and bored on a weekend.

The problem is sitting in the office for 10-12 hours a day, and then coming home at night and...sitting around.

Also, no outdoor distance running; soft arch makes me practically flatfooted, and I have questionable cartilage in the knees...though for whatever reason, treadmills are fine.



Track your calories formally, not informally.  Get a 5x7 notebook and write EVERYTHING that passes your lips down.  Commit to doing this for two weeks.  That's all, just two weeks.   Then after that two weeks actually do the math on it to find out what your caloric intake was.   You'll then have a clearer picture of exactly what you've been doing in terms of calorie intake.  If anything, you should guess that you'd been eating more prior to writing it down than during.

You need some physical activity, but what you're doing is making excuses.  If you really wanted to do something physical you would.  There's no other way around it.   There's resources on the web to find lots of low-impact activities (Swimming is one) as well as resources at gyms or your doctor to find what works best for your physically.

The one thing I will say is that you have to find something you enjoy doing.  I hate running but love swimming. If I were told I had to run daily, I'd find all kinds of excuses not to do it and I'd never make it past a mile.  I fucking hate treadmills and had access to one for years but never used it. On the other hand I've started swimming regularly and do about a mile 3 times a week after joining a gym with a pool only three months ago.  (1760 yards, or 71 laps in a 25yd pool)



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Strazos on July 05, 2010, 11:58:28 AM
A few things:

Unfortunately, some of the stuff I end up eating from the downstairs cafeteria doesn't come with labels...would be hard to calculate that stuff. Or if I make a sandwich at home - how the heck do you calculate that?

You're right - I don't want to do something physical. Unless I'm skiing or playing hockey or something, I just don't find it to be all that enjoyable...that's not the point. Point is that I need something more convenient than coming home late at night, and having to turn around to go to...some gym (not even sure where). Another plus to this system is that I can take it with me when I move...not many gyms or treadmills where I am headed.

I think we got way off track on diets and such; just need to know if the system generally works, for real.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on July 05, 2010, 12:09:16 PM
I think we got way off track on diets and such; just need to know if the system generally works, for real.

What do you mean by "generally works"? 

Will it improve your general fitness level.  Yes.  Could you achieve the same increase in fitness level on your own without the program?  Yes. 

Buy a pair of power block dumbells (http://www.amazon.com/PowerBlock-Adjustable-45-Pounds-per-Set/dp/B000A6QINW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=sporting-goods&qid=1278349515&sr=8-1) and a chin up bar (http://www.amazon.com/Maximum-Fitness-Gear-Doorway-Exercises/dp/B002LN9XJI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=sporting-goods&qid=1278349569&sr=1-1) and surf the web for workout routines.  If you use these items for 3 days a week for a minimum of 30 mins a day and do aerobic activity at least 3 other days a week, you'll see great gains in fitness in the first 90 days. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: ffc on July 05, 2010, 02:24:04 PM
I think we got way off track on diets and such; just need to know if the system generally works, for real.

The P90X routine is hard.  If you're not already fit you will not be able to keep up.  This means you'll go slower / do less than the people in the video and it may be easy to get discouraged.  I was already jogging 3 days a week when I tried the squatting routine and I couldn't keep up.  After sticking with it I could complete it with actual fitness gains; last time I went on a snowboarding trip I didn't get sore at all.

But like Nebu said it's just a set of routines.  Nothing magical.  For the routines you need weights / elastic bands and a pull-up bar.  An exercise mat would help.  If you are arcade loss for an exercise routine then the videos will get you there.

Everyone harps on diet because it is very important.  The P90X materials make it clear a poor diet will not produce fitness results, and it outlines what you should be eating.  If that's too complicated then start with simple things I did like no more coke in the fridge, fruit/nut snack instead of a candy bar and reducing fast food interactions will get you on the healthy train and you won't look back.

Also, read SnakeCharmer's post showing how diet is key if you haven't already:



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Strazos on July 05, 2010, 04:30:42 PM
Thanks for the reminder; I remember reading most of that previously.

The thing that will hinder me no matter what I do is diet. I don't really drink soda anymore. Weekdays, if anything I under-eat because I'm just too damn busy. However I have a wicked sweet tooth, though I've taken to making a bit of oatmeal with Silk to alleviate that.

The big problem will be cooking and such; when it comes to cooking I just do not have the patience (or the know-how, and probably not the right instruments either). While I'm fine waiting 30-45 minutes when sitting in a restaurant, I simply cannot sit around prepping food that I cannot eat; it would drive me nuts late at night. Also, raw vegetables just won't happen, especially salad (just cannot stomach it).

So...it will be interesting.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on July 05, 2010, 08:00:19 PM
The big problem will be cooking and such; when it comes to cooking I just do not have the patience (or the know-how, and probably not the right instruments either). While I'm fine waiting 30-45 minutes when sitting in a restaurant, I simply cannot sit around prepping food that I cannot eat; it would drive me nuts late at night. Also, raw vegetables just won't happen, especially salad (just cannot stomach it).

To get good results you'll have to overcome this.   There's no easy way to say it.  Some of it you can get by simply by buying a grill pan (for fish, shrimp, chicken, or turkey burgers).  It takes next to no prep to slap a chicken breast on a grill pan, season it, and turn.  I also suggest eating more brown rice as it can be easily made with a rice cooker or you can simply buy the single serving microwave pouches.  

Simply stated: There's no shortcut to a healthy lifestyle.  That's the reason the diet business makes hundreds of billions of dollars every year.  People want a shortcut where no long-term shortcut exists.  If you want to get healthy and fit you need to learn to make healthy meals for yourself.  These will include raw/steamed veg, whole grains, and lean protein.  Eating anything else just won't lead to being healthy.  Making simple substitutions initially will help you move toward this goal and that's something I strongly recommend.  Once you start a workout program, you'll find that your food tastes and cravings will change.  After you begin to eliminate processed foods from your diet, you'll find that you crave them less... and many of them will even stop tasting good.  


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Strazos on July 05, 2010, 08:09:10 PM
That sounds mostly doable, if I can bypass blasted salads; I'd rather starve than eat cold lettuce and other veggies. :uhrr:

Now I just have to figure out how to cook without killing myself with salmonella or botulism. :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Sky on July 05, 2010, 09:08:16 PM
Start easy: get steam-in-bag veg from the frozen section and Uncle Ben's steam-in-bag whole grain rice. It's not the best stuff in the world, but a slab of cod takes about ten minutes in the oven and by then the veg and rice is ready, I do it for a lazy "don't feel like cooking" meal. I am looking into getting a steamer and rice cooker, though, the quality of the stuff I mention is getting a bit wearing, and there are additives in the rice I'd like to cut (plus save $ in the long run).


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Arnold on July 06, 2010, 02:00:52 AM
I've always said : Get strong in the gym, get cut in the kitchen.

I'd like to add: Don't "do cardio", do conditioning.

Don't be one of the hamsters you see clogging the gyms, living on a treadmill that's set at 1.5mph while staring blankly at a TV screen.  If you are going to get your heart pumping, do it for a purpose. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Merusk on July 06, 2010, 06:02:20 AM
A few things:

Unfortunately, some of the stuff I end up eating from the downstairs cafeteria doesn't come with labels...would be hard to calculate that stuff. Or if I make a sandwich at home - how the heck do you calculate that?

 :google:

http://www.google.com/search?q=calorie+counter&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
http://www.thecaloriecounter.com/

Woah, hard.

Yeah, the cafeteria food will probably be low and it's not going to be 100% accurate.  That's not the point.. the point is you'll see approximately how far over 2k calories you are.  I bet you'll be surprised.



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: NowhereMan on July 06, 2010, 07:15:00 AM
That sounds mostly doable, if I can bypass blasted salads; I'd rather starve than eat cold lettuce and other veggies. :uhrr:

Now I just have to figure out how to cook without killing myself with salmonella or botulism. :oh_i_see:


I'm just going to ask is it genuinely cold veggies you don't like or when you think salad do you think chopped iceberg lettuce with soggy tomatoes slathered in ranch dressing? Cause I'd hate that shit but a bowl of rocket and spinach leaves with some fresh tomatoes, toasted pine nuts and mustard vinaigrette is totally delicious (with a little goats cheese on occasion). I hate sounding like one of those "You hate X? You just haven't had good X, I'll cook some for you and you'll love it!" when someone genuinely just doesn't like the stuff but making a decent salad is so easy and healthy that it's great to find some form of it you enjoy.

The cooking thing really isn't too hard and just takes some practice, advice from someone who taught themselves to cook more or less. It is worth finding a decent cookbook to start with simply because it is very easy when you start to learn one or two dishes and just kind of stick to that. A recipe books makes variety much easier and really helps planning meals and shopping for them, Jamie Oliver's Ministry of Food (I think it's Food Revolution in the States) is apparently a decent one for simple, healthy meals.

I guess I should state here I'm trying to get into some sort of shape that's not soft and pudgy. I've never really been fit or healthy and probably was in best shape a couple of years ago at the end of my BA just because I'd started running 3 or 4 times a week consistently. Since then I've gotten lazy again, do lots of walking but that's really it for exercise, occasionally SCUBA diving is really my only other activity and that's not much of a work out. Trying to start running again (I can manage about 3 miles and then my lungs decide it's time to get the hell out, doesn't seem to overly wear my muscles but clearly my aerobic system is shit) and bought some free weights. I don't hugely enjoy either but really I don't, and never have, enjoyed exercise. Importantly I don't hate them, I do hate team or competitive sports, so seems like my only option. Any tips on ways people have found to pace increasing exercise regimes or should I just stick to googling this stuff?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: ffc on July 06, 2010, 12:22:38 PM
Any tips on ways people have found to pace increasing exercise regimes or should I just stick to googling this stuff?

When I tried starting jogging in the past I would push myself too hard and get injured.  If you hit 3 miles out the gate I would be careful about getting hurt.  And I found it helpful to run for a set time instead of distance.  I first started at 19 minutes and am now up to ~45 with slow/fast/slow intervals (intervals are much better than running at one pace).  Oh and decent running shoes make a big difference; I used to run in anything and would get shin splints but now my cheapy Saucony shoes keep me going.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on July 06, 2010, 12:28:58 PM
If you want to work up to about 3 miles (5K), I really really recommend the couch to 5K program.  It does a fantastic job of easing your body (Not just cardio, but your muscles and joints) into running that distance and minimizing your chance of injury.  Once you have that down and want to increase  your distance, Hal Higdon's site (http://www.halhigdon.com/) has a variety of training plans that people seem to like.   On a side note - once you hit about 3 miles multiple times  a week, you will most likely want to invest in a good pain of running shoes.  Go to an actual running store where they can judge your stride and recommend the proper shoe.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: SnakeCharmer on July 06, 2010, 12:37:29 PM
just need to know if the system generally works, for real.

Yes, but like anything, you get out what you put in - and doing anything is better than doing nothing.  I still use it, although I'm not using the schedule it recommends.  I mostly do the plyo, yoga, stretching, and core stuff and watch my diet/how I eat mixed in with daily cardio, tennis, or walking the front nine at my local golf course.  I basically do what I want to do when I want to do it.

It was a great kick in the ass, though.  And it will kick your ass.

My wife is pretty hardcore about it.  Which is a good thing because it keeps my diet in check.  A proper diet is always the hardest thing for me because I've got such a wicked sweet tooth and love all the Southern foods that are really, really really bad for you.  Anyway, she does the routine religiously, follows the diet, and it keeps her in as good as or better shape than when she was a gymnast in college.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Strazos on July 06, 2010, 06:59:18 PM
I'm just going to ask is it genuinely cold veggies you don't like or when you think salad do you think chopped iceberg lettuce with soggy tomatoes slathered in ranch dressing? Cause I'd hate that shit but a bowl of rocket and spinach leaves with some fresh tomatoes, toasted pine nuts and mustard vinaigrette is totally delicious (with a little goats cheese on occasion). I hate sounding like one of those "You hate X? You just haven't had good X, I'll cook some for you and you'll love it!" when someone genuinely just doesn't like the stuff but making a decent salad is so easy and healthy that it's great to find some form of it you enjoy.

No, I genuinely hate cold veggies. Maybe it's a texture thing? I like dressing and vinaigrette and such, but cold and raw lettuce, tomatoes, cucumbers... :uhrr:
I have slightly more tolerance for raw fruit; bananas are fine, clementines are ok if they're just ripe enough, pineapples...but apples, oranges, grapes...blech...it's a shame because the actual flavors are fine, but I can only do a bite or two before my mouth just rejects the stuff.

Yes, I'm terrible.


Back to actual p90x....what do you do when you hit the 90-day mark; do you just start at the beginning of the program again?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: NowhereMan on July 06, 2010, 08:13:35 PM
In that case you're just broken :awesome_for_real:

More on topic, thanks for the advice and suggestions. The couch potato to 5K thing seems aimed at people even less fit than I am but it's a nice start and the buying decent running shoes seems like a good idea if I'm going to do this even semi-serious. Like I said I'm not utterly inactive, I've always lived in city places and like/try walking everywhere (including stairs) but actually making some effort to avoid injures is probably a good idea. One of the things that prompted this was after a diving/camping weekend a couple of weeks ago I seem to have pulled/done something to my right hamstring that has resulted in undoing any stretching over the last few years and it made me think maybe I should actually get off my ass (that and looking in a mirror and going, "That looks a lot like a double chin is about to start"). Time to start running regularly and eating more salad, thanks guys.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: slog on July 07, 2010, 12:08:49 PM
In that case you're just broken :awesome_for_real:

More on topic, thanks for the advice and suggestions. The couch potato to 5K thing seems aimed at people even less fit than I am but it's a nice start and the buying decent running shoes seems like a good idea if I'm going to do this even semi-serious. Like I said I'm not utterly inactive, I've always lived in city places and like/try walking everywhere (including stairs) but actually making some effort to avoid injures is probably a good idea. One of the things that prompted this was after a diving/camping weekend a couple of weeks ago I seem to have pulled/done something to my right hamstring that has resulted in undoing any stretching over the last few years and it made me think maybe I should actually get off my ass (that and looking in a mirror and going, "That looks a lot like a double chin is about to start"). Time to start running regularly and eating more salad, thanks guys.

I had my wife take a picture of me from the front, the side, and the back while wearing only boxer shorts.

I found it to be quite the motivator. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: SnakeCharmer on July 07, 2010, 12:30:34 PM
[Back to actual p90x....what do you do when you hit the 90-day mark; do you just start at the beginning of the program again?

Sure.  Modify it a bit.  Do double routines, increase your weight, whatever.  It's flexible.  I like it because it's genuinely fun, the guy is a great motivator (even if more than a bit cheesy, but that's fine), and I get results with it.

If you do the routine and stay in the top 2 tiers of Michi's Ladder (http://www.beachbody.com/category/michis_ladder.do), you'll see results.  Don't worry about following some sort of ultra strict no fun diet regimine other than staying in the top 2 levels, and you'll be fine.  With the exception of fish and the exclusion of red meat and sweets (particularly chocolate), the adjustment to ONLY those kinds of foods was easy for me since I love veggies and fruits.  To be fair, there's not much I won't eat and I still splurge on a steak, bbq, or pork tenderloin every now and then.  There's nothing wrong with treating yourself every couple of weeks.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Strazos on July 07, 2010, 08:55:00 PM
My stomach is going to be a sad panda.  :crying_panda:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: ffc on July 08, 2010, 02:32:30 AM
Michi's Ladder (http://www.beachbody.com/category/michis_ladder.do)

Cool page.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: climbjtree on July 08, 2010, 07:29:52 AM
Can I turn this into a Crossfit/Military Athlete thread or should we make seperate thread?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on July 08, 2010, 09:59:33 AM
My stomach is going to be a sad panda.  :crying_panda:

I'm a huge believer in mind over matter.  You need to go out there and kick the ever loving shit out of those soggy vegetables.  You will be surprised out how well such an approach will work, if you get your mind in the right place.  You may end up liking the stuff, despite your protests.  It is actually rather unatural for you to have such an aversion to healthy foods like raw vegetables, and that should tell you something important.  It should scare the piss out of you, really.

Also, I say it in every thread like this and have said it in this thread, too:  Make very specific goals.  "I want to kind of get in better shape" is not a specific goal.  Figure out exactly what you want, and then find the most efficient means of getting there.  Spell it out here exactly, and you'll get better advice.  You may find that you have several different goals, some of which are a bit contradictory (which just means you should probably parse them out into several shorter term goals).





Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Strazos on July 08, 2010, 09:11:44 PM
It is actually rather unatural for you to have such an aversion to healthy foods like raw vegetables, and that should tell you something important.  It should scare the piss out of you, really.

Eh, I've disliked the stuff...from birth. Has nothing to do with liking/disliking healthy foods. I've actually gotten better over the years; when I was younger red sauce was a no-no. I can do many cooked vegetables to various quantities.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Jimbo on July 09, 2010, 07:17:03 AM
How are raw veggies & fruits for you Strazos?  I luv raw carrots, celery, radishes (the hotter the better!), kohlrabies, fresh baby yellow squash (smaller is better, the big stuff tends to be really bitter & especially the green squash), some zucchini (I still hate it a lot, has to do with having so much of it growing up I couldn't stand it for years!  Damn thing grows freaking everywhere & produces a ton of crop!), plus I'm not big on dressings so eating them plain is fun for me.  I tend to do a low fat low calorie when I diet, but I'm still a big moderation fan.

Hey Nebu or others, anyone done any research on age and metabolism slowing down?  I know I'm not insanely built like my son is (he is 14, swims 2x a day and works out...kinda like I used too & is in decent shape), but it seems I really have to combine strict diet and strict exercise or I can't maintain a health weight anymore  :sad:  Of course my height & weight optimum is like 5'6" so I should be 135 lbs to 140 lbs.  It freaking hurts to get back down, but once there it isn't too bad to maintain, but my work schedule sucks with 12 hr shifts that turn into 13 hrs, then travel and family time, so it can be a bear to keep on the routine.

Grrr now I have to start running, dang kido signed us up for a 5k race in 2 months!  Oh running shoes that fit are awesome!  I went and had myself fitted and can't believe my feet have grown!  @ least the flat feet didn't set in (still just a slight over pronation nothing too bad), so I went with a decent support shoe from Brooks and the right size, wow!  Bought a pair for work and for working out and I'm enjoying walking and jogging again.  Going to suck to half to buy sandals, boots, and dress boots/shoes again this fall, but it is worth it!

I do know of 2 diet pills out there but Orlistat or Alli is freaking hell on your gut to some people, and the Adderall XR is being prescribed by many of the Doc's & Mid Levels (most are requiring monthly check-ups and progress and only writing 1 month supply...some doc's are still Rx'ing without care though...).  Either way those are temporary things for people who are stuck or need a boost, but then there is still not a magic bullet.  And if you can do it without drugs way freaking better!  Oh and if you have any type of addictive personality don't ever try them.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on July 09, 2010, 11:17:21 AM
Hey Nebu or others, anyone done any research on age and metabolism slowing down?  I know I'm not insanely built like my son is (he is 14, swims 2x a day and works out...kinda like I used too & is in decent shape), but it seems I really have to combine strict diet and strict exercise or I can't maintain a health weight anymore  :sad:  Of course my height & weight optimum is like 5'6" so I should be 135 lbs to 140 lbs.  It freaking hurts to get back down, but once there it isn't too bad to maintain, but my work schedule sucks with 12 hr shifts that turn into 13 hrs, then travel and family time, so it can be a bear to keep on the routine.

Here's what I teach as a guideline: Your hepatic and renal clearance will decrease approximately 1% per year after 35.  I would imagine that this also has an effect on metabolism, but think that it can be easily countered by maintaining muscle mass.  If you wish to keep your BMR up, then your best bet is to build mass in the large muscle groups (lats, pecs, delts, quads, gluts) in the gym. 

Anectodal thoughts: I've noticed that both my BMR and ability to pack on muscle mass have declined with age.  I'm fit for being in my 40's, but I'm nothing like the machine I was in my 20's.  I lift for 60-90 mins a day, 5 days a week and run almost daily just to maintain what I could easily do in 3 days a week during my late 20's.  Running was also easiest in my 30's, but that's quite common. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on July 09, 2010, 02:21:11 PM
It is actually rather unatural for you to have such an aversion to healthy foods like raw vegetables, and that should tell you something important.  It should scare the piss out of you, really.

Eh, I've disliked the stuff...from birth. Has nothing to do with liking/disliking healthy foods. I've actually gotten better over the years; when I was younger red sauce was a no-no. I can do many cooked vegetables to various quantities.

Most kids dislike that stuff from birth.  Take that as you will.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Strazos on July 09, 2010, 10:26:31 PM
How are raw veggies & fruits for you Strazos?  I luv raw carrots, celery, radishes (the hotter the better!), kohlrabies, fresh baby yellow squash (smaller is better, the big stuff tends to be really bitter & especially the green squash), some zucchini (I still hate it a lot, has to do with having so much of it growing up I couldn't stand it for years!  Damn thing grows freaking everywhere & produces a ton of crop!), plus I'm not big on dressings so eating them plain is fun for me.  I tend to do a low fat low calorie when I diet, but I'm still a big moderation fan.

For the most part, completely unacceptable. The things you mentioned I can eat...cooked.

As weird as it sounds, my mouth just gets...bored of the stuff, and rejects it. For instance, I can probably do a bite or two of apple. I like apple juice. I can eat limited amount of applesauce or apple pie. But eventually...it's hard to explain, but the back of my mouth and tongue just well up, and I just can't eat it anymore. Same thing happened last time I tried some honeydew and cantaloupe in yogurt. It also happens with poorly-prepared flank steak (not marinated, or overcooked on the grilled and somewhat charred). It's bizarre, and unexplainable, so I just avoid the stuff.

Good thing I don't eat for a living or something.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on July 09, 2010, 10:56:59 PM
I know this will sound odd, but as someone that does survival training... I'd say that you're just not hungry enough.  If you cut your caloric intake to about 1500 per day for 2 weeks, I guarantee that in 5-6 days a salad will taste delightful.  Humans develop taste preferences out of luxury.  I've found that I'm a very picky eater by nature, but once I've been in the wilderness for 7 days with little to no food, I'll begin to eat things that I would otherwise never consider. 

Bottom line:  If you want to change your eating habits, it can and will happen.  You just have to decide that it's what you want to do.  If you limit your choices to only those foods that are healthy, you'll find them to be very tasty in time.  It's all about retraining.  If you don't want to change your eating habits, that's just fine.  Own that and live with the fact that you need to alter your expectations accordingly. 




Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Arnold on July 10, 2010, 01:45:47 AM
Mmmm, had a monster salad tonight and it was delicious.  Pretty basic - romaine, celery, carrot, radish, mushroom, tomato, avocado, basil, almonds, homemade vinaigrette and about 1/4lb of chopped, grilled tri-tip.

You don't know what you are missing!


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on July 10, 2010, 09:30:20 AM
Mmmm, had a monster salad tonight and it was delicious.  Pretty basic - romaine, celery, carrot, radish, mushroom, tomato, avocado, basil, almonds, homemade vinaigrette and about 1/4lb of chopped, grilled tri-tip.

You don't know what you are missing!

I'm going to assume that you're being sarcastic.  Depending on size, the avocado, the almonds, and the tip (I assume beef) could drive the calories and fat of that salad up to McDonald's range.  That's not a salad, that's dinner on lettuce.    4 oz Tri tip ~ 350 Cal, medium avocado ~ 250 Cal, tomato ~ 100 Cal, almonds ~250 Cal.  That salad is already up to 950 Cal not counting the dressing oil.  If you wanted to eat healthy, the salad would lose the red meat.  You already have avocado and almonds as your fat.  


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Arnold on July 10, 2010, 11:22:09 AM
I'm going to assume that you're being sarcastic.  Depending on size, the avocado, the almonds, and the tip (I assume beef) could drive the calories and fat of that salad up to McDonald's range.  That's not a salad, that's dinner on lettuce.    4 oz Tri tip ~ 350 Cal, medium avocado ~ 250 Cal, tomato ~ 100 Cal, almonds ~250 Cal.  That salad is already up to 950 Cal not counting the dressing oil.  If you wanted to eat healthy, the salad would lose the red meat.  You already have avocado and almonds as your fat.  

Nope, totally serious.  Considering that I only ate two meals yesterday and one of them was the salad, I don't see anything wrong with it being ~1k calories.  And I'll just pass over your misguided attack on red meat.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on July 10, 2010, 01:05:34 PM
Nope, totally serious.  Considering that I only ate two meals yesterday and one of them was the salad, I don't see anything wrong with it being ~1k calories.  And I'll just pass over your misguided attack on red meat.

Two meals a day = bad.  Red meat = fine in moderation, but far better choices could be made.  Most red meat (bison being the exception) is too high in fat percentage to be a good, healthy choice. 

If you want to argue biochemistry, physiology, or nutrition, I'm more than happy to go there. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Murgos on July 11, 2010, 10:40:16 AM
Two meals a day = bad.  Red meat = fine in moderation, but far better choices could be made.  Most red meat (bison being the exception) is too high in fat percentage to be a good, healthy choice.  

If you want to argue biochemistry, physiology, or nutrition, I'm more than happy to go there.  

Having a resident bio-chemist is fun.  :awesome_for_real:

I'd like to get your input about some stuff I had heard recently (from the low carb/diabetes camps) showing that the human system doesn't actually digest fat the way everyonetm thought it did.  That higher saturated-fat diets (red meat) can improve quantities of 'good' cholesterol and that diets higher in processed carbohydrates (bread, pasta, etc...) can increase quantities of bad cholesterol?

At least, I think that this is what is being said here: http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/07/diet-heart-hypothesis-subdividing.html

Also, I would like to get your input on this break down of a steak:

Quote
From Gary Taubes’ boo (http://books.google.com/books?id=Xdm40JUD9HwC&pg=PA42&lpg=PA42&dq=good+calories+bad+calories+%22creation+of+consensus%22&source=bl&ots=aLsaJ2LxDc&sig=qo_uJS_1daJ4uCbIsR986WXrCEU&hl=en&ei=J5ApS7r-E8uUtgfE9tDgCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CAsQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false)k:

“Consider a porterhouse steak with a quarter-inch layer of fat. After broiling, this steak will reduce to almost equal parts fat and protein. Fifty-one percent of the fat is monounsaturated, of which 90 percent is oleic acid. Saturated fat constitutes 45 percent of the total fat, but a third of that is stearic acid, which will increase HDL cholesterol while having no effect on LDL. (Stearic acid is metabolized in the body to oleic acid, according to Grundy’s research.) The remaining 4 percent of fat is polyunsaturated, which lowers LDL cholesterol but has no meaningful effect on HDL. In sum, perhaps as much as 70 percent of the fat content of a porterhouse steak will improve the relative levels of LDL and HDL cholesterol, compared with what they would be if carbohydrates such as bread, potatoes, or pasta were consumed. The remaining 30 percent will raise LDL cholesterol, but will also raise HDL cholesterol and will have an insignificant effect, if any, on the ratio of total cholesterol to HDL. All of this suggests that eating a porterhouse steak in lieu of bread or potatoes would actually reduce heart-disease risk, although virtually no nutritional authority will say so publicly. The same is true for lard and bacon.”


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on July 11, 2010, 11:45:06 AM
Can I turn this into a Crossfit/Military Athlete thread or should we make seperate thread?

I'm up for talking about CrossFit, I've been messing about with it recently and it's fairly fun.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: slog on July 12, 2010, 07:15:24 AM
Two meals a day = bad.  Red meat = fine in moderation, but far better choices could be made.  Most red meat (bison being the exception) is too high in fat percentage to be a good, healthy choice.  

If you want to argue biochemistry, physiology, or nutrition, I'm more than happy to go there.  

Having a resident bio-chemist is fun.  :awesome_for_real:

I'd like to get your input about some stuff I had heard recently (from the low carb/diabetes camps) showing that the human system doesn't actually digest fat the way everyonetm thought it did.  That higher saturated-fat diets (red meat) can improve quantities of 'good' cholesterol and that diets higher in processed carbohydrates (bread, pasta, etc...) can increase quantities of bad cholesterol?

At least, I think that this is what is being said here: http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/07/diet-heart-hypothesis-subdividing.html

Also, I would like to get your input on this break down of a steak:

Quote
From Gary Taubes’ boo (http://books.google.com/books?id=Xdm40JUD9HwC&pg=PA42&lpg=PA42&dq=good+calories+bad+calories+%22creation+of+consensus%22&source=bl&ots=aLsaJ2LxDc&sig=qo_uJS_1daJ4uCbIsR986WXrCEU&hl=en&ei=J5ApS7r-E8uUtgfE9tDgCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CAsQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false)k:

“Consider a porterhouse steak with a quarter-inch layer of fat. After broiling, this steak will reduce to almost equal parts fat and protein. Fifty-one percent of the fat is monounsaturated, of which 90 percent is oleic acid. Saturated fat constitutes 45 percent of the total fat, but a third of that is stearic acid, which will increase HDL cholesterol while having no effect on LDL. (Stearic acid is metabolized in the body to oleic acid, according to Grundy’s research.) The remaining 4 percent of fat is polyunsaturated, which lowers LDL cholesterol but has no meaningful effect on HDL. In sum, perhaps as much as 70 percent of the fat content of a porterhouse steak will improve the relative levels of LDL and HDL cholesterol, compared with what they would be if carbohydrates such as bread, potatoes, or pasta were consumed. The remaining 30 percent will raise LDL cholesterol, but will also raise HDL cholesterol and will have an insignificant effect, if any, on the ratio of total cholesterol to HDL. All of this suggests that eating a porterhouse steak in lieu of bread or potatoes would actually reduce heart-disease risk, although virtually no nutritional authority will say so publicly. The same is true for lard and bacon.”


Am I the only guy that thinks that these folks are missing the point?  (The point being "eat less and exercise")


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: climbjtree on July 12, 2010, 07:24:24 AM
Great! I do quite a bit of Crossfit, but lean more towards the Military Athlete (http://www.militaryathlete.com/) stuff. MA is more about practical strength and ways to maintain develop yourself when you're deployed with little to no fitness equipment. A lot of it is short duration, max effort stuff with the idea being that it's far more likely to find yourself in a situation where you'd benefit more from explosive strength than marathon stamina.

On that note, here's my workout for today:


At some point I'm sure I'll talk about a non-standard exercise. You can find videos of them on this page. (http://mtnathlete.com/page.php?page_ID=14)





Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Murgos on July 12, 2010, 08:21:06 AM
Am I the only guy that thinks that these folks are missing the point?  (The point being "eat less and exercise")

It's cute that you think that stuff you quoted was about weight loss.

Anyway, to play your silly little game, you know that sort of thermodynamics equation that usually goes calories in - calories out = wieght gain/loss?

While true in the ultimate sense doing so in good health is more complicated than that.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on July 12, 2010, 09:16:51 AM
Great! I do quite a bit of Crossfit, but lean more towards the Military Athlete (http://www.militaryathlete.com/) stuff. MA is more about practical strength and ways to maintain develop yourself when you're deployed with little to no fitness equipment. A lot of it is short duration, max effort stuff with the idea being that it's far more likely to find yourself in a situation where you'd benefit more from explosive strength than marathon stamina.

On that note, here's my workout for today:


At some point I'm sure I'll talk about a non-standard exercise. You can find videos of them on this page. (http://mtnathlete.com/page.php?page_ID=14)





Interesting, I hadn't heard of the Military Athlete stuff, thanks for the link. As far as I get Crossfit (and Crossfit seems to be a very broadly applied term) the main goal is to do very mixed-up workouts, with a focus on speed and intensity. I was doing 5x5 a year or so again, and then moved into more low-rep, high-set workouts. Now I'm swinging back to doing a mix of high-rep, low-weight days and more conventional low-rep, high-weight days. So far it seems to be working, but I'm tempted to completely restructure how I work out, which I haven't done in an organised way in ages. I recently trained up to do a 300, and dropped about 2.5kg in weight, without any decrease in my max Deadlift, Squat or Bench (my bench actually went up by 5kg the week after the 300). My main problem with CrossFit type training where you focus on max rounds is that I found my recovery times between workouts increased noticeably; I'm not sure where the balance between adequate and too much training intensity is.

The aspect of CrossFit which I find the most fun are the non-standard exercises. Ones which I like are one-leg deadlifts and explosive bench using a smith machine. If you are having to train equipment-free then I'm all about dips.

I find that goals really help me progress; out of interest what are your goals?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Jimbo on July 12, 2010, 10:18:42 AM
GO Ugly sounds like something from Friday nights after being in the field for 4 weeks (or more),  ;D
But the site is great!

It is great produce time!  You all should be getting out to the farmers markets or to the actual fields and buying some awesome veggies and fruits!  New potatoes and green beans in a crock pot are awesome.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: slog on July 12, 2010, 10:33:48 AM
Am I the only guy that thinks that these folks are missing the point?  (The point being "eat less and exercise")

It's cute that you think that stuff you quoted was about weight loss.

Anyway, to play your silly little game, you know that sort of thermodynamics equation that usually goes calories in - calories out = wieght gain/loss?

While true in the ultimate sense doing so in good health is more complicated than that.

Sure, it's important to eat a balanced diet.  Don't we already know what that involves? 

(I thought this was an exercise/weight loss thread.)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Murgos on July 12, 2010, 12:12:35 PM
Sure, it's important to eat a balanced diet.  Don't we already know what that involves? 

The contention is that, no, we don't.  Apparently any nutrition study ever done involving lab animals that are not human is possibly fundamentally flawed by a misunderstanding of the function of the human liver and the cholesterol production process.

Which is why I'd like to get Nebu's take on it.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Sky on July 12, 2010, 12:18:08 PM
Emulate the oldest people in your family.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: slog on July 12, 2010, 12:30:45 PM
Sure, it's important to eat a balanced diet.  Don't we already know what that involves? 

The contention is that, no, we don't.  Apparently any nutrition study ever done involving lab animals that are not human is possibly fundamentally flawed by a misunderstanding of the function of the human liver and the cholesterol production process.

Which is why I'd like to get Nebu's take on it.

I can see your point.   I tend to be very wary of 'new discoveries'  as it seems like there is always some business that stands to make money that's funding the research.. .


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on July 12, 2010, 01:07:22 PM
Which is why I'd like to get Nebu's take on it.

I'll definitely get back to you on this.  I'm out of town until tomorrow, but have some thoughts.  My initial impression is that their conclusions only consider a very isolated case.  I'll elaborate soon.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Merusk on July 12, 2010, 07:17:31 PM
Emulate the oldest people in your family.

Probably the best advice out there.  Wish I knew what they'd done.  Grandfather's Father lived to 103, Grandmother's Mother lived to 98.  Gramps lived to 86, dying due to a stroke from 60 years of smoking half a pack a day and grandma died a few years later from not taking care of herself.  Other grandfather died 3 years ago to leukemia from smoking at 80, while grandma is 82 in January and still going strong if a little demented.  They all ate like shit. Fried Chicken Hearts being dad-gramps favorite while the other lived on big Southern Meals with grits & bacon.

Meanwhile, Dad died 2 years ago at 65 after fighting leukemia for 7 years due to Agent Orange exposure and Mom's had 2 bouts with breast cancer by the age of 59 due to smoking and is probably 80+ # overweight due to grief eating.

Really at this point I just say "Fuck it, it's a craps shoot so all you can do is enjoy yourself."  I do the fitness thing now because I feel better when doing it, not to try and live longer.  With my luck I'll get a blood clot in the leg that kills me at 40.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Strazos on July 12, 2010, 10:22:53 PM
So...holy crap, this P90x stuff is pretty damn legit, and the exercises are amazing simple (so far, after day 2  :grin:)...but that simplicity belies the program's...ass kickery? I don't know, but I'm whooped after I (mostly) finish these workouts.

So I'm just hoping I can stick with this; I feel like I'm pot-committed at this point, after spending more than $250 on the program and equipment.

Yowza.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: NiX on July 12, 2010, 11:44:16 PM
I tried P90X, but I don't have the room for all the equipment to do it and I'd much prefer a full body to a split. I haven't been able to find a full body that gets everything though, anyone had any luck with one?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on July 13, 2010, 10:10:33 AM
Also, I would like to get your input on this break down of a steak:

Quote
From Gary Taubes’ boo (http://books.google.com/books?id=Xdm40JUD9HwC&pg=PA42&lpg=PA42&dq=good+calories+bad+calories+%22creation+of+consensus%22&source=bl&ots=aLsaJ2LxDc&sig=qo_uJS_1daJ4uCbIsR986WXrCEU&hl=en&ei=J5ApS7r-E8uUtgfE9tDgCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CAsQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false)k:

“Consider a porterhouse steak with a quarter-inch layer of fat. After broiling, this steak will reduce to almost equal parts fat and protein. Fifty-one percent of the fat is monounsaturated, of which 90 percent is oleic acid. Saturated fat constitutes 45 percent of the total fat, but a third of that is stearic acid, which will increase HDL cholesterol while having no effect on LDL. (Stearic acid is metabolized in the body to oleic acid, according to Grundy’s research.) The remaining 4 percent of fat is polyunsaturated, which lowers LDL cholesterol but has no meaningful effect on HDL. In sum, perhaps as much as 70 percent of the fat content of a porterhouse steak will improve the relative levels of LDL and HDL cholesterol, compared with what they would be if carbohydrates such as bread, potatoes, or pasta were consumed. The remaining 30 percent will raise LDL cholesterol, but will also raise HDL cholesterol and will have an insignificant effect, if any, on the ratio of total cholesterol to HDL. All of this suggests that eating a porterhouse steak in lieu of bread or potatoes would actually reduce heart-disease risk, although virtually no nutritional authority will say so publicly. The same is true for lard and bacon.”


I started writing a long and descriptive passage of "nerd-speak", but decided that it would be better answered this way: They're cherry picking.  The conversion that they're describing is highly specific and under some pretty limited circumstances that require fairly large excesses of FA (fatty acid) stores being moved around for transport.  If you're taking in only enough fat for caloric requirements, then it will all be broken down by beta-oxidation and associated pathways.  The result being large quantites of acetyl-CoA and occasionally some succinyl-CoA (in the case of odd-number carbon chain FA).  The part of their statement that I can agree with is that high processed carb intake can cause problems physiologically.  These problems tend to manifest themselves quite differently that we see with saturated fat and red meat associated situations. 

Replacing a lot of carbs with saturated fats may help with LDL levels to a minute degree, but you're ultimately just trading one problem for another.  I need to find their article on the conversion of steric acid to oleic acid.  I just can't envision a circumstance where that would happen unless monounsaturated, mid-chain fats were required for specific membrane components and synthesized to fit that need. 

Lantyssa have anything to add here?  I'm not much of an expert on the ancillary pathways of FA synthesis or conversion. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: ffc on July 13, 2010, 10:33:04 AM
I tried P90X, but I don't have the room for all the equipment to do it and I'd much prefer a full body to a split.

The P90X stuff is pretty minimal (pull-up bar, weights/elastic bands, mat and chair/couch, possibly push-up bars), if you don't have room for that what else could you do to exercise at home?

The problem for me is I don't enjoy lifting weights partly because I'm a weakling and partly because weights are boring.  But the resurrection of this thread like a phoenix from the ashes of my last pizza has motivated me to go through the routine to build up some muscle and exercise smarter than just jogging.

EDIT:  I won't be doing the sit-ups since they look stressful on the lower back.  If I find a good plank routine instead I'll post it.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on July 13, 2010, 10:36:27 AM
I tried P90X, but I don't have the room for all the equipment to do it and I'd much prefer a full body to a split. I haven't been able to find a full body that gets everything though, anyone had any luck with one?

What do you mean by "getting everything"?  Full body routines should focus on large muscle groups and expect that smaller groups will be worked in the process.  For example, working back will secondarily work biceps and working chest will secondarily work triceps.  I've used some excellent german volume training routines that did no isolation exercises and still got amazing gains in my arms during the 6 weeks. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Teleku on July 13, 2010, 01:59:24 PM
I know nutrition is always personal dependent, but could Nebu or somebody make a quick comment on this?

Trying to get my lazy ass back to working out again so I can cut some of this fat off, and jumped on a diet.  Just calculated, and it currently puts me at a daily intake of:

Calories: 1229 Carbs: 160g Protein: 115g Fat: 16g

That's spread over 4 meals.  I'm about 6'1, 205 lbs.

Anything I should adjust on that?  Is it OK to add more calories if I can increase the protein amount (I know your suppose to try to balance carbs and protein...).  Should I be upping the protein a lot more?  I hear everything from .5 to 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight.  Not sure which number is actually the most accurate.

This one does leave me pretty damn hungry by the time I go to bed, as most of that is eaten earlier in the day, with a final protein/banana shack taken around 7 PM.  Not sure if I'm undercutting myself to much.  I try to drink a shit ton of water throughout the day.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on July 13, 2010, 02:04:19 PM
1229 calories per day seems fairly light for an adult male. How much exercise are you doing each week?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Arnold on July 13, 2010, 02:17:49 PM
I know nutrition is always personal dependent, but could Nebu or somebody make a quick comment on this?

Trying to get my lazy ass back to working out again so I can cut some of this fat off, and jumped on a diet.  Just calculated, and it currently puts me at a daily intake of:

Calories: 1229 Carbs: 160g Protein: 115g Fat: 16g

That's spread over 4 meals.  I'm about 6'1, 205 lbs.

Anything I should adjust on that?  Is it OK to add more calories if I can increase the protein amount (I know your suppose to try to balance carbs and protein...).  Should I be upping the protein a lot more?  I hear everything from .5 to 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight.  Not sure which number is actually the most accurate.

This one does leave me pretty damn hungry by the time I go to bed, as most of that is eaten earlier in the day, with a final protein/banana shack taken around 7 PM.  Not sure if I'm undercutting myself to much.  I try to drink a shit ton of water throughout the day.

Way too low on the calories and fat.  You will not be able to sustain this for very long and if you are training, especially with something very intense like P90X, you will crash and burn.

My advice to you is simply to eat; never go hungry.  Just cut out all the crap in your diet and eat real food.  Drop all the processed food you are currently eating, stop eating out for the most part, and don't drink any of your calories.  Go easy on fruits/nuts/dairy while you are trying to lose.

I'd suggest allowing one meal(not day) where you cheat and eat anything you want while you are adjusting to this lifestyle.  This will help keep you sane and on track, but as time goes by, you will find that you will need this cheat less and less and it will become something that is more dictated by socializing with others than a need to feed your desire for junk food.

Once you get pretty lean - 10% bf or so, then you are probably going to have to play around with monitoring your caloric intake (hint: use a food scale if you take this route) to get lower, but until then the method I described should serve you well.  

Don't rely solely on a scale to track your progress because it can be deceiving.  Take pictures and measurements once a week, they are fun to look back on and will give you a better idea of how you are coming along.

tldr - eat real food; eat if hungry


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Teleku on July 13, 2010, 02:35:26 PM
1229 calories per day seems fairly light for an adult male. How much exercise are you doing each week?
About 3 full body workouts a week (also trying to get cardio days in between, but every day I don't go to the gym seems to be days where I have a ton of shit to do after work).  Just started on it, and see to be doing ok, but it could catch up with me I guess.  I'm not doing anything like P90X, though I want to start it in the future (idea right now is to condition myself so I'm in decent enough shape to actually start it). 

When I calculated all the nutrition together, it did seem pretty low.  Not sure what the target should be.  Then again, I'd kind of like to burn this shit off quickly.   :awesome_for_real:

Arnold:

I kind of need to maintain a strict diet on myself daily, and allow a day where I don't watch it.  Once I break diet during a day, it sort of crush's my mental fortitude to stay on it.  Yeah, I know, key to long term health is to make it a habit to eat well all the time.  But in the mean time, I kind of have to keep myself very focused in order to maintain this.  I've already done most of what you mentioned, though again, it helps me personally when I stick with an exact order of food I eat during a day.

With the way I have the food spaced out, I actually eat just about every time I start to feel hungry again.  The only time I really feel hungry at all is around the time I'm going to bed.  Through out the day, I'm fine.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on July 13, 2010, 06:05:50 PM
I know nutrition is always personal dependent, but could Nebu or somebody make a quick comment on this?

Trying to get my lazy ass back to working out again so I can cut some of this fat off, and jumped on a diet.  Just calculated, and it currently puts me at a daily intake of:

Calories: 1229 Carbs: 160g Protein: 115g Fat: 16g

That's spread over 4 meals.  I'm about 6'1, 205 lbs.

Anything I should adjust on that?  Is it OK to add more calories if I can increase the protein amount (I know your suppose to try to balance carbs and protein...).  Should I be upping the protein a lot more?  I hear everything from .5 to 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight.  Not sure which number is actually the most accurate.

This one does leave me pretty damn hungry by the time I go to bed, as most of that is eaten earlier in the day, with a final protein/banana shack taken around 7 PM.  Not sure if I'm undercutting myself to much.  I try to drink a shit ton of water throughout the day.

Arnold is correct.  The calories and fat are far too low.  We're almost exactly the same size.  I'm 6' and 200 lbs.  My maintenance diet is near 2000 - 2200 calories, but I workout more than you.  When I cut, I try to go 500 cal below maintenance and around 25- 30g of fat.  I have done 1200 calorie diets, but for no longer than 2 weeks.  Going longer than that will drop your metabolism into starvation mode, which will make losing weight difficult.  Here are two ways I've found to maximize weight loss:

1) Cut phase: Cut 500 calories a day from normal maintenance (around 1500) spread over 5 - 6 meals (breakfast, snack, lunch, snack, dinner).  That amounts to a decrease of 3500 cal a week or about 1 lb of fat loss.  Augment this with 500 cal per day in exercise.  This will easily allow you to shed 2 lbs a week until you reach your goal.  A rule of thumb is to eat only high quality food and keep portion sizes to that slightly smaller than the size of your fist.  For example, lunch might be a packet of tuna on a whole wheat wrap with spinach and tomato and a yogurt.  

2) Bulk Phase.  If you're a gym rat, you can hit the weights hard for 6 weeks while eating like a crazy man.  Get your caloric intake around 3000 to 4000 cal with at least 150g lean protein per day (I prefer whey and skim milk).  Try your best to keep fat < 50g.  With a solid lifting regiment, you can pack on 4-5 pounds of muscle in those 6 weeks which will help you drop fat even faster in a cut phase (see step 1) for 6 weeks.

Hope that helps.  


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Teleku on July 13, 2010, 06:21:51 PM
Yeah, that does help, thanks.  I'm never sure what the right amount of fat to let in is, since I know you need it, but you also want to keep it low (any fat that isn't trans/saturated is "good fat", correct?).

Two questions though.  When you say you drop 500 calories a day, you just mean that you drop to 1500-1700 calories each day during this period, right?

Also, is there any method or tool to figure out how many calories an exercise burns?  I know you can roughly calculate it with jogging/heart beat, but what if your doing lifting?  Not sure how I can figure out if my workout routine is in the range of burning 500 calories or not.  I don't have a heart beat monitor..


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on July 13, 2010, 06:31:19 PM
Yeah, that does help, thanks.  I'm never sure what the right amount of fat to let in is, since I know you need it, but you also want to keep it low (any fat that isn't trans/saturated is "good fat", correct?).

Monounsaturated and polyunsaturated are better, yes.  I try to cook with olive oil when possible or canola in a pinch.  If it's a liquid at room temp, it's primarily monounsaturated.  Saturated fats are solids near room temp (lard, animal fat, butter, etc.)

Two questions though.  When you say you drop 500 calories a day, you just mean that you drop to 1500-1700 calories each day during this period, right?

Also, is there any method or tool to figure out how many calories an exercise burns?  I know you can roughly calculate it with jogging/heart beat, but what if your doing lifting?  Not sure how I can figure out if my workout routine is in the range of burning 500 calories or not.  I don't have a heart beat monitor..

1) Correct.  If my base is 2000 cal, then I would drop to 1500 cal. 

2) Don't worry about calculating workout calories for two reasons a) you will build muscle while working out, which will up your metabolism anyway and b) it can be discouraging and counterproductive.  I would lift or do pliometrics 3 days a week and some aerobic exercise 3-4 days a week.  That should cover you fine.  Just remember to give your body some rest to recover after working out.  A major reason many people fail with these programs is that their enthusiasm will cause overtraining leading to burn-out and/or injury. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Mosesandstick on July 13, 2010, 07:08:25 PM
Guys, what do you do about food during the day? I have a pescy diet and basically have no idea what to do with food once I'm out of home. My time at home is limited, so anything I prepare would preferably be quick. I also cant refrigerate or microwave my food so I need to make stuff that's nice at room temp. Food where I study basically sucks, and it's hard buying food that's not laden with unnecessary shit at any of the shops nearby. What i end up doing is snacking on a ton of fruit during the day but it's tiring and not filling.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Strazos on July 13, 2010, 10:30:41 PM
These workouts are burning, according to my watch monitor, 700+ calories a session.

Is that good, slacking, average, impossible to judge?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Arnold on July 13, 2010, 11:52:21 PM
These workouts are burning, according to my watch monitor, 700+ calories a session.

Is that good, slacking, average, impossible to judge?

It's wrong; just ignore it.  Knowing how many calories you are supposedly burning through exercise is just going to give you an excuse to binge on something crappy because you "earned it".

Exercise burns a lot less than most think.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: climbjtree on July 14, 2010, 05:19:40 AM
I find that goals really help me progress; out of interest what are your goals?

Lately, I check my progress by changes in my Fran time (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1rRWlN7bjo) or by doing the Operator Ugly. (http://militaryathlete.com/page.php?page_ID=43)

The guys I PT with every day are so damn competitive that the only real goal I have is to outdo them, and that's no easy task. Beyond that, I don't really set a lot of goals right now. There's sort of a standing goal of becoming faster and stronger, I guess.

Before about six or seven months ago, I was just lifting weights traditionally and taking supplements. At that time, I set a lot of goals because numbers were such a part of it all. It was super important to bench ten more pounds, or weigh five more pounds or whatever. I weighed in at about 197 lbs at my peak and benched 325 lbs. Sure, my shirts were tight and I looked like a beast, but the downside to all of that was being a slow turd.

Right now I weigh 182 lbs or so and my last two mile run time was 12:17. I haven't maxed my bench in months, but it's not 325. Either way, I feel a lot healthier now and generally prefer this version of my body to trying to be The Hulk.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on July 14, 2010, 11:07:54 AM
Guys, what do you do about food during the day? I have a pescy diet and basically have no idea what to do with food once I'm out of home. My time at home is limited, so anything I prepare would preferably be quick. I also cant refrigerate or microwave my food so I need to make stuff that's nice at room temp. Food where I study basically sucks, and it's hard buying food that's not laden with unnecessary shit at any of the shops nearby. What i end up doing is snacking on a ton of fruit during the day but it's tiring and not filling.

A few tips. 

1) When you first feel pangs of hunger, drink water.  That can sometimes delay the hunger a bit.

2) For snacks: carrots, whole almonds and dried fruit.  GORP (Granola, Oats, Raisins, Peanuts) is also great snack in moderation and cheap to make if you buy the ingredients in bulk.  You can also try rice cakes if you can handle the texture.  The flavored ones have gotten better.  Other than that, go for bulk as filler.  Celery, radishes, and cucumbers can be a great snack with cherry tomatos.   

3) I'm a big fan of foil pouch tuna.  One pouch on a whole wheat tortilla with something green does the trick well.  I often just eat the tuna out of the pouch with salt and pepper.  It takes the edge off. 

4) Protein shakes can be tolerable when made with water, but you need to experiment until you find a brand of power that you can stomach.  When using water, I always stick with chocolate.  The more exotic flavors seem meant to be mixed with milk. 

5) Gum is your friend.  It helps me avoid food cravings as well. 

6) Bring a bottle of fruit flavored chewable vitamin C to work.  When you feel a sweet tooth, just chew one.  They're sweet/tart and your body can tolerate gram quantities with ease. 

Hope that helps.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on July 14, 2010, 11:11:22 AM
Right now I weigh 182 lbs or so and my last two mile run time was 12:17. I haven't maxed my bench in months, but it's not 325. Either way, I feel a lot healthier now and generally prefer this version of my body to trying to be The Hulk.

12:17 is a great two mile time.  At my weight, I have a hard time running faster than 7 min miles.  I guess that's the trade... if I slim down to 165, I can run 5:30's all day but I look like a walking scarecrow.  It sounds like you've found the sweet spot between strength and endurance.  Well done. 

As for the 325 bench, that's impressive at your weight.  I have no idea what my current max is (I never have a spotter), but know it's nowhere near that.  I'll blame my age!!!


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Sky on July 14, 2010, 11:34:32 AM
For snacks: carrots, whole almonds and dried fruit. 
I like apples and bananas, but I can keep a few to eat through the day at work. Obviously dried is more portable. For almonds, you've really got to watch portion. I LOVE almonds, and it's very easy to consume a lot of calories because they're packed with them. I get into the habit of tossing back and occasional handful, but then the can is empty before I know it. I stopped buying them for a while, but I keep going back because they're so tasty and good.

Right now I'm into a variety made by Emerald, they bake in cocoa powder. Less sodium and they have a strong cocoa flavor without a chocolate coating, nutritionally about the same as regular almonds. I still prefer the non-salted foil bag kind, but this is a nice change (and the girls at the office go nuts for them (sorry)).


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on July 14, 2010, 11:36:28 AM
Good points Sky.  I usually put 1/4 cup of each in a bag.  If I don't limit myself, I can eat a pound of almonds effortlessly.  Dried fruit is similar, particularly cranberries, apples, and bananas. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: climbjtree on July 14, 2010, 01:10:13 PM
12:17 is a great two mile time.  At my weight, I have a hard time running faster than 7 min miles.  I guess that's the trade... if I slim down to 165, I can run 5:30's all day but I look like a walking scarecrow.  It sounds like you've found the sweet spot between strength and endurance.  Well done. 

As for the 325 bench, that's impressive at your weight.  I have no idea what my current max is (I never have a spotter), but know it's nowhere near that.  I'll blame my age!!!

I'm only 5'11" or so on a good day, so at 180-185 lbs I think I'm just slightly above scarecrow status. And I'm not anywhere near benching 325 right now - I just wanted to show the range of results you can get based on different routines and diets.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Sky on July 14, 2010, 01:10:25 PM
Not for out and about, but at home I keep seedless grapes in the freezer. They're my favorite replacement for chips or popcorn as mindless grazing food while I read. The grapes are good for you and you can't eat them very fast when they're frozen. I've been wanting to try freezing bananas, too, but I eat them too quickly :)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on July 14, 2010, 02:22:51 PM
For me, apples for breakfast (they are good filler and sooooo yummy) along with a protein shake.  I like my shakes with fat free milk, because it tastes loads better, plus you get even more protein AND the other inherent befits of milk.  More calories, though.  I'm a late evening snacker (with a severe pretzel addiction), but when I'm being good I've found that cherries are great.  So are grapes.  Pistachios on occasion, too, but you don't want to go overboard on those.

Somebody said they try to minimize the fruit, but I don't quite get that logic...as far as I'm concerned, it's the very definition of high quality food that tastes good, fills you up, has real nutritional value and is generally very low in calories.  It's hard imagine that it would even be possible to eat too much fruit, unless you're a diabetic or something.


Edit:  spelling


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Ard on July 14, 2010, 02:38:03 PM
Not for out and about, but at home I keep seedless grapes in the freezer. They're my favorite replacement for chips or popcorn as mindless grazing food while I read. The grapes are good for you and you can't eat them very fast when they're frozen. I've been wanting to try freezing bananas, too, but I eat them too quickly :)

How long do the grapes last in the freezer?  It's something I've never thought to try, but I'd thought they'd get freezer burned pretty fast.  I'm wrong a lot though.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Murgos on July 14, 2010, 02:43:18 PM
Bananas don't freeze well.  The only thing bananas are good for after they come out of a freezer are smoothies and banana bread.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on July 14, 2010, 05:43:18 PM
I'll blame my age!!!

Age means nothing!  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rncGa8wC4X4)  :grin:


12:17 is a great two mile time.  At my weight, I have a hard time running faster than 7 min miles.  I guess that's the trade... if I slim down to 165, I can run 5:30's all day but I look like a walking scarecrow.  It sounds like you've found the sweet spot between strength and endurance.  Well done. 

As for the 325 bench, that's impressive at your weight.  I have no idea what my current max is (I never have a spotter), but know it's nowhere near that.  I'll blame my age!!!

I'm only 5'11" or so on a good day, so at 180-185 lbs I think I'm just slightly above scarecrow status. And I'm not anywhere near benching 325 right now - I just wanted to show the range of results you can get based on different routines and diets.

That would be an impressive bench, although I'm not really keen on bench as a measure of raw strength. I know plenty of guys who can bench well over 100kg, but can't squat or deadlift anything. For pure strength purposes I think the combined bench+squat+deadlift is a better measure. One of my ideas at the moment while I search for a new direction with the gym is to train towards a 400kg combined lift, and see how far I can push that, but generally I find that max power comes at the expense of speed and endurance, so for that sake I'd rather go more into crossfit. Decisions are tough...

For the record I'm 6'1" and weigh around 202 lbs.

Does anyone have any opinion on yoghurt as a post-training snack? I'm usually having a large (450g) pot after most sessions and that +juice/squash usually does me well enough for recovery.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on July 14, 2010, 08:07:39 PM
Does anyone have any opinion on yoghurt as a post-training snack? I'm usually having a large (450g) pot after most sessions and that +juice/squash usually does me well enough for recovery.

Many people will tell you to eat something high in protein post workout.  This is biochemically wrong.  The best thing to eat post workout is something high in glucose as you deplete these stores during the workout and the glucose will keep you from cannibalizing muscle for energy.  Energy bars are a good choice as are some energy drinks.  If you prefer natural, raisins, honey, dates, etc. work.  The key is to not overdo it. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Strazos on July 14, 2010, 08:29:53 PM
I love dried fruit...wish the good stuff wasn't so pricey. I think I need to learn how to snack "properly," as that sort of stuff will just turn into a meal if I have enough available.

Also...the Pylo and arms/back routines tore me up so bad I couldn't do the 90 (!!) minute Yoga routine.  :|

I'm hoping the soreness, especially in the legs, dies down tomorrow (2 days after the actual routine). Also...it's really not helpful that I'm not flexible at the wait; I've never, in my life, been able to touch my toes or the ground with locked knees. The best I can do is bend 90 degrees at the waist, which is not great.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Arnold on July 15, 2010, 12:53:10 AM
Does anyone have any opinion on yoghurt as a post-training snack? I'm usually having a large (450g) pot after most sessions and that +juice/squash usually does me well enough for recovery.

Many people will tell you to eat something high in protein post workout.  This is biochemically wrong.  The best thing to eat post workout is something high in glucose as you deplete these stores during the workout and the glucose will keep you from cannibalizing muscle for energy.  Energy bars are a good choice as are some energy drinks.  If you prefer natural, raisins, honey, dates, etc. work.  The key is to not overdo it. 

Are you sure that's correct?  Your body starts breaking down muscle for glucogenesis just because your muscle glycogen stores aren't 100% full?

Bodybuilders typically consume something like a 50/50 mixture of protein and glucose.  IIRC there were studies showing superior protein absorption when consumed in combination with glucose as opposed to protein alone.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Murgos on July 15, 2010, 07:00:06 AM
I thought it was something along the lines of glucose within 10-15 minutes of a workout and protein ~2 hrs after a workout for maximum effect.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: climbjtree on July 15, 2010, 08:14:26 AM
From what I understand, your body benefits most from protein towards the end of the 30 minute window after you stop working out.

Furthermore, there's all the different sorts of protein supplements. Immediately after a workout, you should take in something that digests with a quickness, i.e. whey.

The stuff that digests more slowly (Muscle Milk is good example) is better to take before you rest/sleep so that it's absorbed over a longer period of time.

I'm garbage at nutrition and diet, so Nebu may want to comment here. Either way, this is what I've gone by and it's worked out alright.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Mosesandstick on July 15, 2010, 08:56:53 AM
Thanks for all the tips Nebu.

Are protein supplements only suggested if you want to build bulk? I'm trying to lose weight and tone, I think I'd look fine as long as I got leaner, and my main goals are to get fitter, slimmer, meaner and jump higher.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: slog on July 15, 2010, 09:01:04 AM
Thanks for all the tips Nebu.

Are protein supplements only suggested if you want to build bulk? I'm trying to lose weight and tone, I think I'd look fine as long as I got leaner, and my main goals are to get fitter, slimmer, meaner and jump higher.

I'm one of those folks that thinks people overdo it with the supplements.  Eating responsibly and working out 4-5 days a week has worked out very well for me.  I lost 45 pounds 3 years ago and I've kept it off (which has been the hardest part).


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on July 15, 2010, 09:12:29 AM
Are you sure that's correct?  Your body starts breaking down muscle for glucogenesis just because your muscle glycogen stores aren't 100% full?

I'm sure that's correct for me.  I drink protein shakes throughout the day (primarily because I'm a vegetarian) to maintain a consistent amount of available protein and often fast for an hour or so prior to my workout.  For most people glycogen stores will last for 24 hr at normal operating metabolism.  When I lift, I can often burn through a significant portion of my stores so I'm always sure to eat a high glucose (not just carb, but glucose to immediately raise blood sugar) snack after working out.  I'll then have a whey shake about 30-60 mins later.  My body fat is typically in the 6-8% range, so I don't have a lot of excess available for catabolism.  If my glucose levels run low, my body will immediately begin to scavenge muscle, particularly that which was already partially broken down during my lifting.  

As for the second part, your body will burn glucose first, then begin to eat into your glycogen stores.  Since the brain, RBC, and a few other cell types only burn glucose and beta keto acids for fuel, you'll begin to burn any remaining fat and muscle for fuel once the glucose is gone.  This is one reason why I don't particularly care for ketogenic diets.  Using fat for energy is fine to speed weight loss, but will result in a decrease in blood pH which can really affect many systems.  

Are protein supplements only suggested if you want to build bulk? I'm trying to lose weight and tone, I think I'd look fine as long as I got leaner, and my main goals are to get fitter, slimmer, meaner and jump higher.

Protein shakes are a lean form of protein to supplement the diet when you can't get enough through normal intake.  If you want to jump higher, you're going to be building quad and gastroc muscle.  Having the extra protein available for building while on a low calorie diet will limit the amount of muscle that gets broken down during normal weight loss.  Most of us will breakdown 20-30% muscle mass while in the process of also losing fat.  Keeping your protein levels high will minimize the muscle loss while getting rid of unwanted fat.  

Hope that helps.



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on July 15, 2010, 09:20:51 AM
I stopped taking protein shakes because they were doing horrible things to my gut, and frankly I haven't noticed a significant impact on my training capacity. I have increased the amount of fish, eggs and milk that I eat to compensate though. The only thing I do feel is that without the added creatine I cannot train for quite as long, so I may go back to that. But frankly I don't have the time to train for more than 2 hours 3-4 nights a week, and if I can do that without creatine I may as well just live without it.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Der Helm on July 15, 2010, 06:27:44 PM
So I did some math and figured out that I could (and probably should) lose half of my bodymass (sadly I am only slightly exaggerating). I knew I had "a few pounds to much" on me, but when my new balance (is that really the American term for the thing that measures your weight) just gave me an "error" message when calculation my body fat, I figured that it would be a really good idea to start with limiting my calorie intake to a more healthy level.

I am a little bit shy of 6 feet tall and plan to eat no more than 2000 calories a day. If I am not totally wrong this should bring me down to a more healthy weight level in a few months(/years). I can't really work with your fucked up measurement system, but I think I should lose at least 30kg and could probably lose up to 65kg without looking starved.

Light, low impact cardio and workout in the gym is a given, in fact I will start as soon as they will take my money.

Why do I post this ? No idea, maybe just because I want to have something to look back to in a few months to remind me why I started this.  :awesome_for_real:



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on July 15, 2010, 07:34:45 PM
Gotta start somewhere Helm.   It really is worth it  - just take a picture and some measurements.  In a few months, after you've dropped a few kg and cm, take a look in the mirror and then at the pic - chances are, you'll be shocked.



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Der Helm on July 15, 2010, 08:07:33 PM
Got a panorama lens ?  :ye_gods:



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: slog on July 15, 2010, 08:31:23 PM
The first day I hit the elliptical, I had to stop after 10 minutes.  In hindsight, I'd say the first 2 months were the worst.  Don't give up.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Merusk on July 15, 2010, 08:45:22 PM
My swim coach called the first 2 weeks after some time off "The Wall."  You'll hit it hard and want to stop, but you push through and you'll go over and forget about it.  You can do it, Helm.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on July 16, 2010, 07:15:07 AM

Why do I post this ? No idea, maybe just because I want to have something to look back to in a few months to remind me why I started this.  :awesome_for_real:


Talking about it actually helps, so if I were you I'd make sure you keep this post alive.  There are also a lot of knowledgeable people around here than can help you with advice, on both diet and exercise.

Anyway, good luck to you.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on July 16, 2010, 08:58:08 AM
Light, low impact cardio and workout in the gym is a given, in fact I will start as soon as they will take my money.

Why do I post this ? No idea, maybe just because I want to have something to look back to in a few months to remind me why I started this.  :awesome_for_real:

I think it's great that you posted this.  The idea is to start on the path toward a healthier version of yourself.  I think the energy boost that you'll feel will make the effort worthwhile almost immediately. 

Tips:

1) Don't allow early enthusiasm to cause you to overdo it and burnout.  Take it slowly and allow yourself adequate recovery. 

2) Make working out a part of your daily routine.  When it becomes an important part of your day, you don't notice the time devoted to it as being "lost".  It's just like brushing your teeth or taking a shower.

3) Keep a journal/log of your progress with pictures (if you can).  It's very motivational. 

Best of luck! 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on July 16, 2010, 11:11:14 AM
Quote
2) Make working out a part of your daily routine.  When it becomes an important part of your day, you don't notice the time devoted to it as being "lost".  It's just like brushing your teeth or taking a shower.

Heck, I daresay that you can become so addicted to working out that it can go to the other extreme...having to skip a day can actually be a disappointment.  It usually is for me.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: SnakeCharmer on July 16, 2010, 09:20:20 PM
My swim coach called the first 2 weeks after some time off "The Wall."  You'll hit it hard and want to stop, but you push through and you'll go over and forget about it.  You can do it, Helm.

I have nothing relevant to add to this but I have to say something...

I've seen the video of the chick that is your avatar, but I'll be damned if I can remember what/where.  Edumacate me please?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on July 16, 2010, 09:34:19 PM
Quote
2) Make working out a part of your daily routine.  When it becomes an important part of your day, you don't notice the time devoted to it as being "lost".  It's just like brushing your teeth or taking a shower.

Heck, I daresay that you can become so addicted to working out that it can go to the other extreme...having to skip a day can actually be a disappointment.  It usually is for me.

I go back and forth on this.  On my old training schedule (heavy cardio and circuit training), the day off felt like cheating.   On my current schedule (Hal Higdon's Half Marathon for novices), the day off comes like a day of sweet sweet wonderful bliss.



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Merusk on July 17, 2010, 08:27:29 PM
My swim coach called the first 2 weeks after some time off "The Wall."  You'll hit it hard and want to stop, but you push through and you'll go over and forget about it.  You can do it, Helm.

I have nothing relevant to add to this but I have to say something...

I've seen the video of the chick that is your avatar, but I'll be damned if I can remember what/where.  Edumacate me please?

Can't help you.  I stole it form a .gif thread on 4chan or Corp years ago.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Yoru on July 17, 2010, 11:30:13 PM
My swim coach called the first 2 weeks after some time off "The Wall."  You'll hit it hard and want to stop, but you push through and you'll go over and forget about it.  You can do it, Helm.

I have nothing relevant to add to this but I have to say something...

I've seen the video of the chick that is your avatar, but I'll be damned if I can remember what/where.  Edumacate me please?

Can't help you.  I stole it form a .gif thread on 4chan or Corp years ago.

Presumably, you speak of Alex Gaudino's "Destination Calabria" (featuring Christal Waters (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APtj3EvhfWA) and seven of her friends).


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: NowhereMan on July 18, 2010, 08:12:15 AM
Question on running, I've found that I can now actually run long and fast enough to start feeling some actual work in my legs and can control the pace well enough to not have to stop just so I can breath again but I've found that I get a really uncomfortable feeling in my stomach after a while. Not a cramp or pain but that feeling you get with an unhappy stomach that is not infrequently followed by a desperate rush to the loo, best description I've heard for it was a hot stomach (which is apparently what it's known as in Vietnam). If I stop and catch my breath it'll go away but I'm not keen on trying to run through that for fear of something going horribly wrong. I'm guessing it'll go away as general fitness improves but anyone know what might be the cause/ways to work on getting rid of it? Couldn't seem to find anything through google since I'm not really sure what to search for.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Murgos on July 19, 2010, 09:08:35 AM
Having to make a bowel movement immediately before, during or just after running is pretty common, I think.  I know that when I did cross country running when I was younger people constantly would 'nip off the path' for a quick shit.

Just make a point to go before you run, eventually your body figures it out and it's no longer an issue.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on July 19, 2010, 09:09:36 AM
Having to make a bowel movement immediately before, during or just after running is pretty common, I think.  I know that when I did cross country running when I was younger people constantly would 'nip off the path' for a quick shit.

Just make a point to go before you run, eventually your body figures it out and it's no longer an issue.


Pretty much - it's usually referred to as Runner's trots.



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on July 19, 2010, 09:25:02 AM
Having to make a bowel movement immediately before, during or just after running is pretty common, I think.  I know that when I did cross country running when I was younger people constantly would 'nip off the path' for a quick shit.

Just make a point to go before you run, eventually your body figures it out and it's no longer an issue.


Pretty much - it's usually referred to as Runner's trots.



Or the Trotter's runs.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: NowhereMan on July 19, 2010, 10:41:03 AM
 :ye_gods: Maybe I'll stop running. I've been making sure I don't need to go before I run, seems like sometimes that isn't enough. I'll probably just slow it down rather than nip off into someone's front garden though.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on July 19, 2010, 11:49:46 AM
:ye_gods: Maybe I'll stop running. I've been making sure I don't need to go before I run, seems like sometimes that isn't enough. I'll probably just slow it down rather than nip off into someone's front garden though.

On my run days, being properly hydrated seems to help a lot with it, as does not being an idiot and running when it's 100 degrees outside (I'll either run super early or late or just the gym).



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on August 09, 2010, 08:49:22 PM
Anyone know where I can get a (free) version of the nutrition plan for P90x?  Thinking about doing it.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Strazos on August 09, 2010, 09:48:28 PM
Just because it was bumped...

I finally got around to completing the Yoga routine recently (not damn time lately)...wow.

About 45 minutes in or so, for the first time in my life, I legitimately touched my toes. You know, knees locked and all.

I was waaaay too proud of myself. Even as a kid, playing HOURS of hockey every day, I could never do that. I was amazed.

Just a shame I don't have the time to do this more consistently, though I should have more time once I switch positions in January.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Der Helm on August 10, 2010, 05:51:56 AM
Still struggling to improve my eating habbits. As someone else mentioned, reducing your calorie intake makes everything much more tasty than before. On a side note, I found out that I, like many people with overweight I figure, actually seem to be more or less addicted to eating. Right now I am trying to figure out if it is a psychological or a physical dependence. I hope it is physical.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: slog on August 10, 2010, 07:41:50 AM
Still struggling to improve my eating habbits. As someone else mentioned, reducing your calorie intake makes everything much more tasty than before. On a side note, I found out that I, like many people with overweight I figure, actually seem to be more or less addicted to eating. Right now I am trying to figure out if it is a psychological or a physical dependence. I hope it is physical.  :awesome_for_real:

In my case, I think it's 50/50 habit.  What has worked best for me is to have water always with me and I eat large salads every day at lunch (skipping the iceberg lettuce). 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on August 10, 2010, 08:54:17 AM
In my case, I think it's 50/50 habit.  What has worked best for me is to have water always with me and I eat large salads every day at lunch (skipping the iceberg lettuce). 

The bold part is great advice.  In obese/overweight individuals, it's often common for them to confuse the hunger and thirst responses.  One way to help is to drink water before each meal and to drink water when hunger pangs come on.  I also like to exercise if a glass of water doesn't help the hunger subside. 

On a separate note: you may also be suffering the effects of low blood sugar between meals.  One way to help is to have 4-6 small meals during the day.  It will curb the cravings as well.



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on August 10, 2010, 09:00:54 AM
So nobody has a copy of the nutrition plan for this program?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Der Helm on August 10, 2010, 02:15:12 PM
I don't get hungry. I just noticed that I sometimes REALLY want to eat something. Hard to explain really.  :grin:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on August 10, 2010, 03:01:08 PM
I don't get hungry. I just noticed that I sometimes REALLY want to eat something. Hard to explain really.  :grin:

I understand that.  It's often a dip in blood sugar that is the cause.  That's why I added the bit about eating many small meals.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: bhodi on August 10, 2010, 05:26:46 PM
So nobody has a copy of the nutrition plan for this program?
I do. It's your standard high protein / low carb diet  which starts with moderate fat and shifts into lower fat as you get more into it. It's tracked by a chart with 'serving' boxes that you check off each day.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Merusk on August 10, 2010, 07:21:33 PM
So nobody has a copy of the nutrition plan for this program?

Since you're asking for copyright material to be posted on a private web board instead of searching torrents, Google and Usenet for it yourself.. just accept that you're too lazy to stick to the food plan and find something else to do.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Strazos on August 10, 2010, 07:43:22 PM
On a separate note: you may also be suffering the effects of low blood sugar between meals.  One way to help is to have 4-6 small meals during the day.  It will curb the cravings as well.

I think this might apply to me as well, but...how do you have time for that? 4-6 meals sounds like a lot of running out to get food or cooking or something.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Samwise on August 10, 2010, 07:48:38 PM
Still struggling to improve my eating habbits. As someone else mentioned, reducing your calorie intake makes everything much more tasty than before. On a side note, I found out that I, like many people with overweight I figure, actually seem to be more or less addicted to eating. Right now I am trying to figure out if it is a psychological or a physical dependence. I hope it is physical.  :awesome_for_real:

I've been working on losing weight for the past month or so, with pretty good success if my crappy scale is to be believed (recently invested in a better one since I've historically done better with constant accurate feedback).  A large part of it has been recognizing my own bad eating habits and avoiding them through conscious effort.  One of the real killers, I think, was the habit of trying to "fill up" at dinner, i.e. eat to the point of feeling "stuffed" rather than just sated.  I decided that it came from some irrational childhood fear of waking up hungry, and once I realized that and saw how silly it was (if it ever did happen I could just get up and eat a snack, dammit, I'm a grown-up now), I started to get comfortable with having small dinners.  I think it's been helping me sleep better, too.

I know exactly what you mean with just wanting to eat, though.  Water helps satisfy the vague urge to wander into the kitchen and come back to my desk with something to consume, but when there's delicious food actually sitting around it requires an act of will to pass it up.  I suspect that never gets easier.  :cry:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Merusk on August 10, 2010, 09:04:39 PM
On a separate note: you may also be suffering the effects of low blood sugar between meals.  One way to help is to have 4-6 small meals during the day.  It will curb the cravings as well.

I think this might apply to me as well, but...how do you have time for that? 4-6 meals sounds like a lot of running out to get food or cooking or something.

A "Meal" doesn't necessitate cooking.. It's just a designated time to eat.  It can be a few pieces of fruit, some GORP or just saving half of your lunch to eat 2-3 hours later at your desk.  Just make sure you manage your total calories instead of adding 2-3 additional meals that are as calorie-dense as the 2-3 you're already eating.  And DO NOT snack between these meals (which is my downfall of late. Damn droughts in the break room where my water bottles are.)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on August 11, 2010, 08:45:43 AM
So nobody has a copy of the nutrition plan for this program?

Since you're asking for copyright material to be posted on a private web board instead of searching torrents, Google and Usenet for it yourself.. just accept that you're too lazy to stick to the food plan and find something else to do.

You assume laziness when simple incompetence would have sufficed as an explanation.  As far as it being copyrighted data, it simply didn't occur to me...so apologies for offending your sensibilities  :grin:

At any rate, while I have often monitored my calories and am very aware of what I am eating, I have never followed a strict plan like this, so I wanted to see what I might be getting into.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Der Helm on August 11, 2010, 09:13:22 AM
And a related question that just crossed my mind, my mother insists that diet coke makes you hungry, because it tastes sweet, but does not contain sugar, thereby causing a drip in blood sugar. I disagree, but maybe my body is fooling me again ?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on August 11, 2010, 09:27:56 AM
And a related question that just crossed my mind, my mother insists that diet coke makes you hungry, because it tastes sweet, but does not contain sugar, thereby causing a drip in blood sugar. I disagree, but maybe my body is fooling me again ?

It's something called "aspartame disease" and some information about it can be found HERE (http://www.medicinenet.com/artificial_sweeteners/page8.htm)

I'm not sure what I think about it, but know that many artificial sweeteners can signal release of insulin that causes hunger.  The hunger comes from an expectation that more calories will follow. 

Drinking water instead of diet soda is always the smart choice, but diet soda is still >>> regular soda.  Baby steps and all that.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Der Helm on August 11, 2010, 09:59:20 AM
Drinking water instead of diet soda is always the smart choice, but diet soda is still >>> regular soda.  Baby steps and all that.
Your sound advice is always welcome. Thank you.  :awesome_for_real:



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on December 19, 2010, 10:46:49 AM
Don't think it warrants its own thread but figured I'd post something up about this

Basically, I wanted to make sure I didn't turn back into a couch potato during the winter, so I signed up to run a race in the middle of December.

http://celticsolstice.com/Intro.html

It's a 5 mile loop through Druid Hill Park in Baltimore.   Ran it yesterday and I'm pretty happy with my overall time (averaged a 9:47 minute/mile, which I know is slow compared to some of you bastards, but since I couldn't even run a mile let alone 5 this time last year, I'll take it). 

Got to the race around 7 am and didn't even think about a bag check, so I ended up standing around in my run gear in about 25F degrees for about an hour and a half.   Not great planning on my part, but live and learn.

The pre and post race support was probably the best I've seen - plenty of water, coffee, and hot cocoa for people pre-race and then soup, hot wassail and cookies post-race.    And I'm not sure hot spice wine can possibly taste any better than after you've just put your body through the fun of standing around and then running 5 miles in sub-freezing temps. 

Of course, since I had all that coffee and a billion runs to the porta-john while standing around, I got super dehydrated after the race, got home, and spent a good half day alternating between serious cramps and runs to the bathroom.   I AM SMRT.

Recovery today seems to be fairly minimal - a little soreness in my calves and quads and randomly enough my shoulder blades (I keep super tight while running)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: ffc on December 19, 2010, 05:10:49 PM
One update deserves another. I lost 35lbs (was ~5'11" 185lbs+ none of it muscle) due to cleaning up my diet several months ago as hammered on in this thread.

Apparently I stored all my fat in my face and torso.  I don't own a scale so I didn't notice my gradual weight gain as I actually thought my shirts were somehow shrinking.  I got on a scale just to figure out my starting weight and didn't weigh myself again until I got comments that I look like a shadow of my former self and asking whether I was sick.  :oh_i_see:

Weight loss wasn't my primary goal; I just wanted to stop eating like an idiot and get fit in the process.  My diet used to be:  Breakfast - huge Jamba Juice banana/chocolate drink, nursed all day /// Lunch - McDonaldish food (e.g., nuggets, fries, coke and sundae) /// Dinner - bigger McDonaldish food (e.g., burrito, chips, fries, coke/milkshake, and ice cream) /// plenty of processed snacks

My new diet is:  Breakfast - eggs/oatmeal and fruit ///  Lunch - salad and animal protein ///  Dinner - grain/potato carbs, veggies and animal protein /// fewer and healthier snacks

All the while I did ~45min cardio 3 days a week.  I tried twice to start lifting weights but both times left me unable to straighten my arms for a week or two. It also doesn't help that I have a natural aversion to lifting since it's hard but putting on some muscle is my next goal so to stick with it I'll be reducing weights to further embarrassing levels.

I still eat out and have cookies, pizza, etc., but my portions are smaller, I pay attention to labels and my fast food binging is over. I can't remember the last time I had a coke and that's saying something since I used to take baths in the stuff.

/LiveJournal


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on December 20, 2010, 08:57:14 AM
stuff

Nice one, man.  Don't be too worried or embarrased about the weight lifting stuff.  Find an intelligent lifting program (e.g. some kind of 5x5 for beginners), up your calorie and protein intake, and you'll make shockingly fast progress. 

Go on you too, JWIV.  Running fucking sucks, though...you can have it. :grin:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: NowhereMan on December 23, 2010, 02:29:42 PM
I just want to say on the lifting, something like 5x5 or a Starting Strength programme is a great place to start. A sensible beginner lifting programme shouldn't leave your arms aching and lifting without a programme results in overworking a few muscle groups (based on the stupid stuff I've done and read about). Grats on doing stuff though, I've not gone running for almost a month now after spraining something in my left foot (that's finally pretty much healed) and lifting has been keeping me sane and not suddenly going back to what I was six months ago.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on June 05, 2011, 12:02:28 PM
Sorry for bumping a rather old thread.

I'm just wondering if anyone has any experience or advice about ketogenic diets?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: angry.bob on June 05, 2011, 02:26:38 PM
I'm just wondering if anyone has any experience or advice about ketogenic diets?

I did Atkins a few years back when I hit 300lbs @6'2". Worked like a charm, lost a steady 2lbs a dayafter the first week until I hit about 220lbs and just sort of hoovreed around there. This was all with no exercise at all and working a sedentary IT job. I felt great and it improved every aspect of my life. I stayed on it with 1-3 incidents of cheating (caramel machiato, piece of cheesecake, etc) and kept the weight off easily. What made me finally go off the rails was working an overnight cutover from one mainframe to another with a promise of a party tray from upper management. At 3 am and everyone starving, the secretary showed up with a bunch of pop and boxes of twinkies, hoho's, etc. I made the mistake of eating the shit until I was full and afterwards it was like I chugged a bottle of tequilla. After that it was like I was an addict and my body just craved carbs too much to reist. Contrary to what people said the weight was very slow to come back on after resuming a "normal" american diet. I'm about to start up the Atkins thing again myself.



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: NowhereMan on June 05, 2011, 04:13:36 PM
I've seen people in the SA forums have good success with ketogenic. Then I've also seen people have good success with plain ol' low carb, Intermittent fasting and a whole slew of other diets. Ketogenic is (from what I've read) best if you're coming at this from being pretty overweight, largely on the assumption that your body's insulin responses are probably somewhat fucked by huge quantities of carbohydrates and blood sugar spikes. Aside from insulin sensitivity issues and whether or not it helps control that really the advantage of these diets is you shouldn't need to count calories as you're eating stuff that will fill you up and leave you feeling full. Of course that's all predicated on your body not wanting to eat too much and having a reasonable amount of willpower, it's entirely possible to eat yourself into ketosis and not lose weight. It's just not as easy as stuffing yourself with calorie dense carby stuff.

Have some crazy internet geeks talk about dieting (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3407406) That thread will have a ton more resources than I could ever be bothered to find and pass on but be aware that everyone there thinks low carb diets are The One True Diet and like anything where you aim to lose weight calories in v. calories out is going to be the deciding factor. Everything else is about what makes it easiest for you to get the balance on that you want.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on June 05, 2011, 04:40:20 PM
I've known a few people to do Atkins - and had great success with it while on it.  The problem is, once they got off of it, they had never learned to maintain their weight with a healthy diet and instead went back to their old bad habits and ballooned back up.   So it works in the short term, but I'm not a big fan of it because of the long term failure.   

In general, I'm a big proponent of just general calorie counting, introducing exercise into your life, and gradually losing weight in such a way that helps enforce a lifestyle change.    Eat more greens and lean proteins, better carbs (real bread instead of processed white, brown rice over white, etc), less prepackaged foods.   


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on June 06, 2011, 07:20:11 AM
If you eliminate processed food, eat whole grains, lots of fruits & veg, and choose lean proteins, you almost don't even need to count calories.  Funny thing, after you've eaten healthy food for a month or two, you'll lose your taste for processed crap.  It really is just getting back to basics. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Sky on June 06, 2011, 08:43:31 AM
If you eliminate processed food, eat whole grains, lots of fruits & veg, and choose lean proteins, you almost don't even need to count calories.  Funny thing, after you've eaten healthy food for a month or two, you'll lose your taste for processed crap.  It really is just getting back to basics.  
This, 1000%. I'm really not a believer in 'diets', though they can work in the short term for people. If you learn some basic nutrition, how to balance meals and sourcing, it's really all you need as far as intake goes. Then you need to adjust portions to fit lifestyle (calories out) and genetics.

I don't count calories at all, and follow exactly what Nebu outlined. I had a personal rule that Weight Watchers has recently adopted in their new strategy: fruit and veg don't count. I load my plate with the veg course every night and use that to fill up on. Snack on fruit all throughout the day.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: ghost on June 06, 2011, 08:50:57 AM
There's a big difference between a "diet" and having a healthy diet.  Dieting never works because people aren't making a life change.  They just want a quick fix to "get skinny" and then go back to living the way they did before the diet.

One of the best things that happened to me was finding out I'm celiac.  I don't have a choice, I can't eat most processed crap.  Generally if you stay on the outside rim of the grocery store you'll be fine-  fruits, vegetables and meats.  Another thing that people underestimate as far as impact on weight is the effect of sodas (diet and regular).  Cutting back to just water can really cut out a lot of calories. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Sheepherder on June 06, 2011, 09:57:59 AM
I don't know why anyone would drink diet soda in the first place.  Stuff always tastes like ass.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on June 06, 2011, 10:41:02 AM
Thanks for the feedback. I'm not really overweight, I'm more looking to cut a few % of body fat since I have hit most of my current goals with lifting.

My main thought was how easy it is to roll in and out of keto, it seems like it can kick in very quick, and I'm not looking to drop that much weight, so I would probably only do it for a month or so. I wasn't sure how realistic/healthy/productive this would be though.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Malakili on June 06, 2011, 10:44:59 AM
Thanks for the feedback. I'm not really overweight, I'm more looking to cut a few % of body fat since I have hit most of my current goals with lifting.

My main thought was how easy it is to roll in and out of keto, it seems like it can kick in very quick, and I'm not looking to drop that much weight, so I would probably only do it for a month or so. I wasn't sure how realistic/healthy/productive this would be though.

What Nebu said is a good way to cutting down on body fat, and healthier as well.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Sky on June 06, 2011, 10:46:20 AM
I don't know why anyone would drink diet soda in the first place.  Stuff always tastes like ass.
BURN THE HERETIC


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Merusk on June 06, 2011, 11:24:02 AM
I've been having to fight my wife so very, very, very hard on the processed food thing.  Sure, I'm guilty of it on a few fronts but damn, if we'd followed the eating habits she grew up with we'd be eating Rice-A-Roni, Chef Boyardee, Hamburger Helper ect every meal.

It's been a 14 year struggle and we're now down to just pastas and some meal fillers. (Oh, and Mac N Cheese. Making that from scratch every time we have a hankering takes too long.)  I won on getting whole grain pasta (finally) you just have to cook it a little longer than white flour pasta.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: ghost on June 06, 2011, 11:30:05 AM
It's kind of amazing what the eating habits are of people our age, Merusk.  I know people that eat out for every single meal.  That is insane. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on June 06, 2011, 11:34:00 AM
Thanks for the feedback. I'm not really overweight, I'm more looking to cut a few % of body fat since I have hit most of my current goals with lifting.

My main thought was how easy it is to roll in and out of keto, it seems like it can kick in very quick, and I'm not looking to drop that much weight, so I would probably only do it for a month or so. I wasn't sure how realistic/healthy/productive this would be though.

What Nebu said is a good way to cutting down on body fat, and healthier as well.

The thing is, I don't eat much processed food, although perhaps that depends on what your definition of processed is. I could improve my diet in various ways; but none of them seem like they would offer dramatic changes in my body fat percentage.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Sky on June 06, 2011, 11:44:29 AM
I won on getting whole grain pasta (finally) you just have to cook it a little longer than white flour pasta.
We ate a box of regular pasta a short while ago, after a year of the whole grain wheat stuff. Turns out we both prefer the whole grain stuff for both flavor and texture, it's amazing how fast your palate can change.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Merusk on June 06, 2011, 12:03:36 PM
It's kind of amazing what the eating habits are of people our age, Merusk.  I know people that eat out for every single meal.  That is insane. 

I know a few of those as well.  Well, single guys mainly.  I can't imagine doing that married w/ Kids. Ye gods, the cost alone would be insane.   We ate out Friday night after a miscommunication about when the Son's Cub Scout potluck was and that cost us $70 w/ tip.  That's what I normally spend per week on grocery staples (i.e. not when I have to restock chicken & beef)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: MuffinMan on June 06, 2011, 12:13:04 PM
My roommate eats Subway for lunch everyday and orders Domino's pizza every other night. I think he's going to die.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on June 06, 2011, 12:18:36 PM
Since it's apropos to the conversation - I just found out that my dad was apparently just classified pre-diabetic and that diabetes runs on his mother's side of the family.   Wonder when they were planning on telling me either of these things, since you know, it's not like diabetes is one of those things that family medical history might be a factor in.  :facepalm:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Rasix on June 06, 2011, 12:19:43 PM
My roommate eats Subway for lunch everyday and orders Domino's pizza every other night. I think he's going to die.

Sounds like college.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Furiously on June 06, 2011, 02:33:34 PM
There's a big difference between a "diet" and having a healthy diet.  Dieting never works because people aren't making a life change.  They just want a quick fix to "get skinny" and then go back to living the way they did before the diet.

One of the best things that happened to me was finding out I'm celiac.  I don't have a choice, I can't eat most processed crap.  Generally if you stay on the outside rim of the grocery store you'll be fine-  fruits, vegetables and meats.  Another thing that people underestimate as far as impact on weight is the effect of sodas (diet and regular).  Cutting back to just water can really cut out a lot of calories. 

I think I discovered Udi's too soon or something. (That and the gluten free bakery down the road from me).


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: ghost on June 06, 2011, 02:38:23 PM
Yeah, there's an awesome gluten free place in San Antonio as well.  I lost about 20 pounds by cutting out gluten though, so I can't bitch too much. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on June 06, 2011, 04:18:16 PM
I changed my diet earlier this year - mostly to lose a load of weight I'd piled on over winter. Normally, I just do sensible eating (calorie counting to a certain extent) and exercise but it wasn't really doing it this time. I ended up reading about a slow-carb diet as popularised by Tim Ferriss in his Four-Hour Body book.

Essentially it's a low-GI diet but cuts out any white carbs or carbs that can be white - so no potatoes, no rice (wholemeal, brown or otherwise), no pasta (same), no bread (same), keep to lean meats and avoid dairy and fruit. Do this 6 days a week and go mental on the 7th day with whatever you like. Because you can eat as much veg, pulses and beans as you like, it's not ketogenic but, the theory goes, switching to slow energy release carbs is pretty much the same. Also, loads of veg = healthy. The downside is that you are best taking calcium tablets as the diet does lack in that.

This all got reinforced for me a little more when I read totally unrelated nutrition research in relation to ultramarathon training and how to condition your body to use fat resources as energy more efficiently rather than carbs when exercising under the anaerobic threshold.

It worked for me - I shed the weight and felt great. Diet's gone a little haywire over the last couple of weeks (mostly owing to moving house) but my training has amped up for a race in a couple of months so that's kept it off. Trying to switch back to it now to get sorted for end of July.

YMMV - and everybody on the internet is an expert.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Sheepherder on June 06, 2011, 08:33:58 PM
My main thought was how easy it is to roll in and out of keto, it seems like it can kick in very quick, and I'm not looking to drop that much weight, so I would probably only do it for a month or so.

I would assume that after a few weeks of eating almost nothing but fat that the act of taking a shit would be enough to drive one to suicide.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: angry.bob on June 07, 2011, 12:25:58 AM
I would assume that after a few weeks of eating almost nothing but fat that the act of taking a shit would be enough to drive one to suicide.

You can eat a lot of stuff that's high in fiber since it's indigestible. Even during the two week induction phase there are vegetables you can eat. Celery and Broccolli if I remember correctly. Anyway if you mix what you're eatng and include the veggies taking a dump is per normal. Now the peple who just eat a pound of colby cheese, eggs, and red meat on the otherhand I don't even want to think about.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Jimbo on June 07, 2011, 03:39:38 PM
I've always done a combination of low fat, low calorie diet, then increased my cardio, but maintained other components of the exercise triad (cardio, strength, flexibility).  Increasing fiber helps curb my appetite, along with small frequent meals, which is great if I'm not working, damn 12 hour shifts at night screw up my diet big time ( I know, I know, better planning on my part would make that easier, but working 4 nights a week every other week takes it toll).

Wonderful weather here in Indiana right now!  Hot and humid, so walking/jogging or bicycling is awesome work outs, just have to stay hydrated  8-)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: NowhereMan on June 09, 2011, 08:23:16 AM
I've always done a combination of low fat, low calorie diet, then increased my cardio, but maintained other components of the exercise triad (cardio, strength, flexibility).  Increasing fiber helps curb my appetite, along with small frequent meals, which is great if I'm not working, damn 12 hour shifts at night screw up my diet big time ( I know, I know, better planning on my part would make that easier, but working 4 nights a week every other week takes it toll).

Wonderful weather here in Indiana right now!  Hot and humid, so walking/jogging or bicycling is awesome work outs, just have to stay hydrated  8-)

Intermittent Fasting seems to be pretty popular with people looking to control their calorie intake with schedules that make lots of small meals impractical, the basic idea being that you have an 8 or 4 hour window a day in which you take on board all your calories in one or two big meals. There's more to it in terms of the sort of foods you should be taking and when you break your fast, etc. but apparently after a week or two your body gets pretty comfortable with not eating for 16 hours and it makes paying attention to your calories much simpler since you just don't snack at all. There's no danger of losing track of what you've been munching on. Not sure how many of the people that have success with this are doing intense stuff during the fasting period though and even if it does work well it would probably result in a week or so of shifts from hell.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Sky on June 09, 2011, 08:57:07 AM
Wouldn't that encourage fat storage?

I snack all day long, my doc wanted me to take some tetracycline and technically it wants a 3-hour window where I don't eat. I realized I don't have one! Lots of small, low cal snacks all day long (I have to avoid almonds, they're packed with cals and I mang on them) with a few reasonable meals, body never feels the need to build up fat stores. Trying to get over my one bad habit - late night snacks where I input a hundred calories that has no place to burn off.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on June 09, 2011, 09:42:24 AM
Wouldn't that encourage fat storage?

Yes. 

Intermittent fasting is a terrible idea.  It produces uneven blood sugar levels that mess with normal metabolism.  Done frequently enough, it will cause the metabolic system to shift, reducing basal metabolic rate.  It is far superior to eat 5-6 small meals per day.  Even just three meals is superior.

Two keys that will be the greatest help are a) eat when you get up in the morning to start your furnace burning and b) avoid eating within an hour of bedtime. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: bhodi on June 09, 2011, 09:51:32 AM
I snack all day long, my doc wanted me to take some tetracycline and technically it wants a 3-hour window where I don't eat.
This is, if I recall, because it binds with iron, making it less or completely ineffective. You can work around that by eating it with foods with low iron :)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: ghost on June 09, 2011, 03:45:10 PM
Wouldn't that encourage fat storage?

Yes. 

Intermittent fasting is a terrible idea.  It produces uneven blood sugar levels that mess with normal metabolism.  Done frequently enough, it will cause the metabolic system to shift, reducing basal metabolic rate.  It is far superior to eat 5-6 small meals per day.  Even just three meals is superior.

Two keys that will be the greatest help are a) eat when you get up in the morning to start your furnace burning and b) avoid eating within an hour of bedtime. 

Just like that dude that ate a Twinkie 6 times a day to get his 1500 calories and lost something ridiculous like 100 pounds.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: MuffinMan on June 09, 2011, 04:55:49 PM
I'm surprised a Twinkie diet isn't sweeping the nation right now.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on June 11, 2011, 08:57:14 PM
I'm surprised a Twinkie diet isn't sweeping the nation right now.

By looking at most Americans, I think maybe it actually is sweeping the nation.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Furiously on June 13, 2011, 09:35:09 PM
I started the 17 day diet last week and am down nine lbs.

It's interesting to look at how much unhealthy food I like.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Goumindong on June 14, 2011, 02:22:06 AM
Wouldn't that encourage fat storage?


Depends on what you eat and how long you fast. If you eat carbs its going to be terrible. Your body will store fat and eat muscle.

If you eat proteins and fats you're probably OK. Since your body can take a longer time to metabolize them.

The longer you fast and the more protein/fat in your diet the better it is for you in terms of weight.

If you're going to fast though its much better to do a weekly fast. You need to fast long enough for your body to kick start into "time to burn excess energy mode". [It is also good for people who have food allergies that they cannot avoid]


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on June 14, 2011, 07:26:55 AM
Depends on what you eat and how long you fast. If you eat carbs its going to be terrible. Your body will store fat and eat muscle.

If you eat proteins and fats you're probably OK. Since your body can take a longer time to metabolize them.

The longer you fast and the more protein/fat in your diet the better it is for you in terms of weight.

If you're going to fast though its much better to do a weekly fast. You need to fast long enough for your body to kick start into "time to burn excess energy mode". [It is also good for people who have food allergies that they cannot avoid]

I take issue with nearly every one of your points, but don't want to Bruce your post. 

I will never encourage people to eat high protein & fat diets.  a) Too many tissues require glucose as a primary fuel source and b) protein takes a lot of water to metabolize and most people don't drink nearly enough water.  The key is to maintain a healthy caloric intake, get adequate exercise, and eat a diet rich in fiber and complex cabs (to minimize insulin spikes).  Fasting is a terrible solution unless your doing it to clean your colon.  Drastic cuts in daily caloric intake will drop your BMR through the floor in a matter of days and initiate muscle scavenging which is also counterproductive. 

Your body is less likely to initiate a "burn excess energy mode" and more likely to initiate an "Oh shit, we have no food so slow the engine to make what we have last as long as possible".  Also ketoacidosis isn't a good thing.   


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Goumindong on June 14, 2011, 07:55:17 AM
I should have clarified. I meant "once a week" fast not "fast for a whole week".

Your body does not need enough glucose as a primary source to justify not eating a diet high in protein and fat. Though this depends on your definition of "high". Yes, exclusion can be problematic. Yes a diet high in fiber is good. This does not mean that a regimented fast does not necessitate weight gain.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on June 14, 2011, 10:47:33 AM
Your body does not need enough glucose as a primary source to justify not eating a diet high in protein and fat. Though this depends on your definition of "high". Yes, exclusion can be problematic. Yes a diet high in fiber is good. This does not mean that a regimented fast does not necessitate weight gain.

You don't need a lot of protein.  1g of lean protein per kg is more than enough unless you're an athlete or a body builder.  Fats are also subject to scrutiny.  The type is every bit as important as the quantity. 

I know you know this, just saying more for reference. 

I'm very interested in nutritional biochemistry and micronutrient delivery and triage.  I'd be happy to discuss any topics on this or another thread. 



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on June 26, 2011, 03:20:06 PM
Did my first 10K race over the weekend - Dreaded Druid Hills 10K.   I spent about a month of a half trying to add hills to as much of my practice runs as possible, and good lord,  I was still staring in horror at some of what I came across.   I mean there's hills, and then there's 1710 feet of ascent as you run up a hill, turn a corner thinking you're about to hit the flats, and realize no, it's MORE HILL.   :ye_gods: 

I'll probably run it again next year.  Having never run one before, I was pretty happy with my time of 59:47, and hopefully as I continue to up my distance I can bring that down by quite a bit next year.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on June 27, 2011, 03:13:54 AM
Did my first 10K race over the weekend - Dreaded Druid Hills 10K.   I spent about a month of a half trying to add hills to as much of my practice runs as possible, and good lord,  I was still staring in horror at some of what I came across.   I mean there's hills, and then there's 1710 feet of ascent as you run up a hill, turn a corner thinking you're about to hit the flats, and realize no, it's MORE HILL.   :ye_gods: 

I'll probably run it again next year.  Having never run one before, I was pretty happy with my time of 59:47, and hopefully as I continue to up my distance I can bring that down by quite a bit next year.

That's a pretty respectable time for that distance with that ascent - especially if it's your first race (taking into account I know little about you, your build or your running history). Was it trail or road?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on June 27, 2011, 03:29:36 AM
Did my first 10K race over the weekend - Dreaded Druid Hills 10K.   I spent about a month of a half trying to add hills to as much of my practice runs as possible, and good lord,  I was still staring in horror at some of what I came across.   I mean there's hills, and then there's 1710 feet of ascent as you run up a hill, turn a corner thinking you're about to hit the flats, and realize no, it's MORE HILL.   :ye_gods: 

I'll probably run it again next year.  Having never run one before, I was pretty happy with my time of 59:47, and hopefully as I continue to up my distance I can bring that down by quite a bit next year.

That's a pretty respectable time for that distance with that ascent - especially if it's your first race (taking into account I know little about you, your build or your running history). Was it trail or road?

It's a road race - most of the run involves the service roads behind the Baltimore Zoo, so it's all under the shade at least and is actually a really pretty run. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on June 27, 2011, 07:40:40 AM
Rather than necessarily up the mileage, can I suggest that you have a look at these training programs: http://www2.furman.edu/SITES/FIRST/Pages/FirstTrainingPrograms.aspx (http://www2.furman.edu/SITES/FIRST/Pages/FirstTrainingPrograms.aspx) - they're geared around three dedicated training sessions a week (with additional cross training as you see fit) and I've been using it in the run up to a mountain race in a few weeks time. After a few years of my pace stagnating, I've started running 8 miles in training at the same pace I was doing in a race 7 years ago - and I'm running less mileage a week too.

My hill training sucks sweaty balls though. I hate hills. Been doing squats, step ups and using the step machine in the gym in preparation but it's probably not enough.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on June 27, 2011, 08:03:05 AM
Rather than necessarily up the mileage, can I suggest that you have a look at these training programs: http://www2.furman.edu/SITES/FIRST/Pages/FirstTrainingPrograms.aspx (http://www2.furman.edu/SITES/FIRST/Pages/FirstTrainingPrograms.aspx) - they're geared around three dedicated training sessions a week (with additional cross training as you see fit) and I've been using it in the run up to a mountain race in a few weeks time. After a few years of my pace stagnating, I've started running 8 miles in training at the same pace I was doing in a race 7 years ago - and I'm running less mileage a week too.

My hill training sucks sweaty balls though. I hate hills. Been doing squats, step ups and using the step machine in the gym in preparation but it's probably not enough.

My goal is to try and do a half in October, so yah, training schedules are good things.   The 3 days a week aspect of this one is pretty damn appealing. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: ghost on July 11, 2011, 10:16:49 PM
So the wife and I started regular P90 about a month ago.  I've lost 10 pounds (205 from 215) and I'm pretty sure that I have a six pack underneath my belly flab now.  It's a good little workout for those not super athletic.  It does get repetitive though.  You can finish up the workout in about 40 minutes.   I would definitely recommend. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: ghost on July 27, 2011, 04:52:01 PM
Another update-  now at 203, which isn't much of a loss from the 205 from a few weeks ago.  However I've been able to cinch up my belt by a loop and my pants are now super baggy.   :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Merusk on August 05, 2011, 09:15:37 AM
We should just rename this the fitness thread.

The part that sucks most about getting in shape after 20 years is the in-between stage.  You can feel the muscles forming, and you know it's beginning to kick in. However, the fat is starting to droop but isn't burning off quite fast enough so it just makes you feel unattractive and unsuccessful at your routine.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what's going on, but I can *see* abs under there that I couldn't 6 months ago.  I'm able to do more reps on the crunch machine with a much higher weight than when I started (and more weight on everything, actually) but the way things are starting to jiggle I feel like I've gotten fatter, not fitter.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: ghost on August 08, 2011, 11:11:08 AM
Yeah, when you build muscle underneath the fat it makes it stand up more.  I am starting to get the six pack triangle now underneath my pudge.  I can see it there, but the fat must feel winter coming on.  It's going nowhere fast.   :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on August 09, 2011, 10:03:41 AM
Yeah, when you build muscle underneath the fat it makes it stand up more.  I am starting to get the six pack triangle now underneath my pudge.  I can see it there, but the fat must feel winter coming on.  It's going nowhere fast.   :why_so_serious:

1200 Cal a day with only complex carbs and only water to drink (1 gal per day).  If that doesn't get rid of 10 lbs in 4 weeks, nothing will.  Another way to make your 6 pack more defined is to start doing resistance work.

I've spent this summer doing almost exactly the opposite of what I've done my entire life... I'm trying to trim down from 205 lbs to about 185.  Being in my 40's, I find it much better to drop the bulk in favor of a leaner physique.  I'm sick of carrying the extra weight up and down mountains. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Merusk on August 09, 2011, 11:18:48 AM
1200 cal a day. Wow I'd be a real son of a bitch. I'm mean enough on only 2k.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on August 09, 2011, 11:33:04 AM
1200 cal a day. Wow I'd be a real son of a bitch. I'm mean enough on only 2k.

My cut program:

2 weeks on 1200 Cal, light lifting
2 weeks on 1800 Cal, heavy cardio, light lifting
2 weeks on 1500 Cal, light cardio, heavy lifting
2 weeks on 1800 Cal, heavy cardio, heavy lifting

I try to not go longer than 2 weeks below 1800 cal as it can induce a metabolic slowdown (perceived starvation mode).  Of course, this is knowing my own body well.  Your mileage may vary.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: ghost on August 09, 2011, 11:57:10 AM
1200 calories per day isn't very realistic for most people.  1750 or maybe 1500 could work.  I don't like 1200 because it is certainly not something you'd want to do long term and it is easy to have a bad rebound from. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on August 09, 2011, 12:04:48 PM
1200 calories per day isn't very realistic for most people.  1750 or maybe 1500 could work.  I don't like 1200 because it is certainly not something you'd want to do long term and it is easy to have a bad rebound from. 

You need to cut 500 cal per day or burn 500 cal per day to lose 1 lb per week.  If people can't do 1200, then 1500 is just fine. 

I find that most people fail in their thinking that losing more than 2 lbs a week is a realistic goal. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on August 09, 2011, 12:15:58 PM
1200 calories per day isn't very realistic for most people.  1750 or maybe 1500 could work.  I don't like 1200 because it is certainly not something you'd want to do long term and it is easy to have a bad rebound from. 

You need to cut 500 cal per day or burn 500 cal per day to lose 1 lb per week.  If people can't do 1200, then 1500 is just fine. 

I find that most people fail in their thinking that losing more than 2 lbs a week is a realistic goal. 

Partially that's because everyone sees those initial weeks or diet claims and thinks that's somehow sustainable as opposed to mostly being due to a drastic cutback of salt from their diet and losing their  water bloat.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on August 09, 2011, 12:24:59 PM
Partially that's because everyone sees those initial weeks or diet claims and thinks that's somehow sustainable as opposed to mostly being due to a drastic cutback of salt from their diet and losing their  water bloat.

Want to lose 10 lbs fast?  A laxative and a diuretic will do it.  

Most people have between 5-10 lbs of undigested/underdigested material in their small intestine/colon.  If you want a real eye opener, go on a 3 day, liquid only diet.  Drink fruit/vegetable juice with some psyllium in it for 3 days and watch what gets cleaned out of your system.  Doing this is what got me to change my diet for life.  

Lunch anyone?   :grin:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Minvaren on August 09, 2011, 12:34:09 PM
I once read that a fair bit of the undigested stuff was red meat - any insight there, Nebu?

Also, thanks for the mention of breakfast/starting the metabolism in the morning earlier in this thread.  I had gained some weight earlier this year from inactivity, but even with a healthy diet and frequent exercise it wasn't coming off.  Adding a granola bar early in the AM tipped the scales (heh) over to a slow, steady weight loss again.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Furiously on August 09, 2011, 02:34:31 PM
Salads really are not horrid.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Sky on August 09, 2011, 03:08:45 PM
Drink fruit/vegetable juice with some psilocybin in it for 3 days and watch what gets cleaned out of your system.
:why_so_serious:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: ghost on August 09, 2011, 03:29:54 PM
I'm pretty limited on what I can eat anyway due to a gluten sensitivity.  We eat fairly healthy anyway-  lots of fruits and vegetables.  We shop on the outside of the store.  I don't count calories, but I've lost almost 20 pounds doing base level P90 for the past 50 days, and we haven't even gotten to the more advanced workout (they split it up into 1/2 and 3/4 workouts-  we're still on 1/2). 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on August 10, 2011, 05:22:07 AM
I'm pretty limited on what I can eat anyway due to a gluten sensitivity.  We eat fairly healthy anyway-  lots of fruits and vegetables.  We shop on the outside of the store.  I don't count calories, but I've lost almost 20 pounds doing base level P90 for the past 50 days, and we haven't even gotten to the more advanced workout (they split it up into 1/2 and 3/4 workouts-  we're still on 1/2). 

Sounds like you're doing just fine then.

Further to Nebu's figures though, I personally think it's worth adding a commonly used Harris-Benedict equation to calculate your BMR (Basal Metabolic Rate - i.e. the amount of kCals you burn by just existing):

Women: 655 + ( 4.35 x weight in pounds ) + ( 4.7 x height in inches ) - ( 4.7 x age in years )
Men: 66 + ( 6.23 x weight in pounds ) + ( 12.7 x height in inches ) - ( 6.8 x age in year )

This figure is then multiplied by a factor that refelects your daily activity - I tend to use 1.1 or 1.2 for "mostly sedentary" seeing as how I'm a desk jockey for 40 hours a week.  That gives me, for example (someone of a similar stats and presumably build to Nebu - 6'2" and 205 pounds) a daily calorific need of ~2400kCal.

Having said all that, as I mentioned a page or two ago, I found calorie counting didn't help at the beginning of this year so I revisited my diet and changed what I was eating rather than the amount I was eating.  Again, like Nebu, I'm doing my best to avoid simple carbs and stick to a slow/carbs and a low GI diet with lots of lean, white protein meats. I'm also cutting back a lot on dairy (particularly cheese which is a big, fatty weakness for me).  This is working out fine for me as I've discovered a whole new love of cooking and experimenting with foods.

But I also have the additional aim of trying to retrain my body to more effectively burn fat stores rather than glycogen/carbs (for endurance reasons rather than six-pack reasons).



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Merusk on August 10, 2011, 06:33:04 AM
How odd.. using that calc I should be eating ~2350 calories a day (230#, 5'11) but at 2k-2.1k I'm just maintaining weight instead of losing it; even with 3 days at the gym for 1/2hour of weights 1/2 hour cardio/fat burn.

I guess the weekends are really hurting me more than I thought.. that or I'm really underestimating the calories in the dinners we're cooking at night.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on August 10, 2011, 06:49:07 AM
How odd.. using that calc I should be eating ~2350 calories a day (230#, 5'11) but at 2k-2.1k I'm just maintaining weight instead of losing it; even with 3 days at the gym for 1/2hour of weights 1/2 hour cardio/fat burn.

I guess the weekends are really hurting me more than I thought.. that or I'm really underestimating the calories in the dinners we're cooking at night.

As dull as it sounds, tracking what you eat for a couple of weeks can sometimes help to spot where any issues - if any - lie. It might be the weekends - a drink or two extra or just snacks that you forget to take into account. Or, yes, you're understimating meals.  Or, alternatively, your workouts are effectively converting body mass from fat to muscle so your body fat percentage is dropping but your weight isn't. ;)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Merusk on August 10, 2011, 06:53:52 AM
If I wind up 230# of muscle I'll look a bit freakish.   :drill:  :grin:

Yeah, I should track meals better than just the mental accounting I'm doing. As far as snacks, I've had apples, bananas or a granola bar at work.. maybe some cheese or bread at home.  I'm not keeping snacks anymore and it's driving the family crazy.  They're all used to grazing and I'm done with enabling it.   I'll give that a shot and see how things actually are.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: ghost on August 10, 2011, 09:09:25 AM
You gotta watch granola bars.  They are often full of crap and full of calories.  I have been eating a cup of fruit for lunch every day:  blueberries, strawberries and blackberries most often. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Merusk on August 10, 2011, 04:06:33 PM
Can't keep much fresh fruit at the office, it generates fruit flies within a day.  I don't eat the "granola bars" most folks think of - aka chewey quaker HFCS + Sugar + Chocolate crap.  I eat the Nature's Valley old-style crunchy ones - A little better for me and only 160 cal / 2 bars.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Pezzle on August 10, 2011, 07:54:18 PM
Ordered resistance bands and a mat tonight. 

My diet is already pretty good.  Whole fruits/veg and fish.  I snack on things like almonds and cashews along with a piece of fruit or two during the day instead of eating a normal lunch.  LOTS of water, no soda, almost no dairy.  I cook most of my own meals and do not eat much in the way of processed foods outside protein bars I guess? 

I am mobile enough and a fairly active cyclist.  Hopefully P90X works well for me!


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on August 11, 2011, 01:45:08 AM
So I've had a goal set for myself for the past couple of months that I've been working towards (having small goals helps you achieve big ones!).  I was aiming to be able to do sitting dumbell shoulder presses (military presses, whatever) with 90lbs in each hand, sans spotter (putting it just over my body weight).  I had just about worked up to 85 pounds...can't quite get up the first rep without a spotter.  80 is tough but doable for 6 to 8 reps.  I wanted to be able to do all this without putting on tons of weight that I would have to shed later, so I've been taking my time getting there.

And now I have moved back to Denmark after 5 years in the US.  I've joined up with the local fitness chain.  I think Danes must be a fairly wimpy race, because their dumbells only go up to 34 kilograms!  WTF?  That's like 75 pounds, for the uninformed among you.

So that's a goal I will never now achieve.  Not to mention the lack of challenge for dumbell bench presses.

I need a new goal.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on August 11, 2011, 04:53:20 AM
Switch to bar weights? Try and do 100kg OHP with a bar.

40kg in each hand for seated military press is pretty impressive.

I find pushing weighted dips and chins to be good goals for me, that and the elusive 100kg OHP (I can do 95, with leg drive, 100kg is just too much though).


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on August 11, 2011, 05:31:12 AM
I have a bulging disk in my L5, so I really only dare doing heavy overhead stuff from a seated position.

40kg in each hand for seated military press is pretty impressive.

iknowrite?  Which is precisely why I was trying to get there.   :angryfist:

Another problem with the local gym:  they seem to be allergic to decline bench presses, because they have no real apparatus for it.  That sucks for me, because my shoulder joints don't like going heavy on a flat bench (except with dumbbells for some reason, which I still haven't figured out).  Probably because my form is off somehow.  I feel decidedly less manly as a result.  I can't lift nearly as much on the flat bench.



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on August 11, 2011, 05:35:06 AM
K9 - do I recall you once mentioning that you did CrossFit?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on August 11, 2011, 08:15:00 AM
I flirted with it for a month or two, but the facilities I can use are really not geared right, and I'm happy with my routine of powerlifting and olympic lifts. The more I read about CrossFit the more I have come to think that there are some really good core principles in there (high tempo, varied workouts) that is tied up in an awful lot of voodoo. Their stance on bench presses (no bench press) is frankly idiotic, since it is such a core strength-building lift for the whole of the upper torso.

I have a bulging disk in my L5, so I really only dare doing heavy overhead stuff from a seated position.

40kg in each hand for seated military press is pretty impressive.

iknowrite?  Which is precisely why I was trying to get there.   :angryfist:

Another problem with the local gym:  they seem to be allergic to decline bench presses, because they have no real apparatus for it.  That sucks for me, because my shoulder joints don't like going heavy on a flat bench (except with dumbbells for some reason, which I still haven't figured out).  Probably because my form is off somehow.  I feel decidedly less manly as a result.  I can't lift nearly as much on the flat bench.



Decline benches are a bit rare indeed, I know we used to just prop a flat bench up on a step under one of the power racks to do decline, it was far from ideal though. What is the issue with your shoulder joints, is it pain or lack of coordination? I started locking my traps under the bar and it has greatly improved the stability and power of my bench, if you are not doing that you might want to look into it. Widening your grip could help too.

I don't know much about spinal injuries, so always stick to what feels safest.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on August 11, 2011, 10:01:54 AM
I flirted with it for a month or two, but the facilities I can use are really not geared right, and I'm happy with my routine of powerlifting and olympic lifts. The more I read about CrossFit the more I have come to think that there are some really good core principles in there (high tempo, varied workouts) that is tied up in an awful lot of voodoo. Their stance on bench presses (no bench press) is frankly idiotic, since it is such a core strength-building lift for the whole of the upper torso.

Don't know about bench press - can't tell you the last time I actually lifted a weight - but yeah, I kinda agree about the voodoo thing. I'm very curious about CrossFit Endurance but nearest one is in Bethnal Green which is far too far away.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on August 11, 2011, 11:07:09 AM
I can't lift nearly as much on the flat bench.

Declines recruit lats.  That's why you (and everyone else) can lift more decline.  You can get the same results by doing flat bench and bentover rows.  I only ever use a decline bench for triceps any more and it's really just a method to break up the monotony. 

90lb military dumbell presses?  You're a beast!



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on August 11, 2011, 11:33:49 AM
I flirted with it for a month or two, but the facilities I can use are really not geared right, and I'm happy with my routine of powerlifting and olympic lifts. The more I read about CrossFit the more I have come to think that there are some really good core principles in there (high tempo, varied workouts) that is tied up in an awful lot of voodoo. Their stance on bench presses (no bench press) is frankly idiotic, since it is such a core strength-building lift for the whole of the upper torso.

Don't know about bench press - can't tell you the last time I actually lifted a weight - but yeah, I kinda agree about the voodoo thing. I'm very curious about CrossFit Endurance but nearest one is in Bethnal Green which is far too far away.

Google lists one in Southwark (http://www.crossfitcentrallondon.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=71&Itemid=122), but sod £100 per month. Crossfit seems good if your goal is to be an all-rounder, but it requires quite a lot of motivation to get results I think. I am slightly averse to joining a special cross-fit gym, but then I am fortunate to have access to two very good university gyms. Without that I might be a bit more tempted. Really the only bit of kit that a crossfit gym has that would really improve my workouts are good rings. Olympic bars, kettlebells and spots for chins and dips you can find in any half-decent gym.



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on August 11, 2011, 12:59:45 PM
I can't lift nearly as much on the flat bench.

Declines recruit lats.  That's why you (and everyone else) can lift more decline.  You can get the same results by doing flat bench and bentover rows.  I only ever use a decline bench for triceps any more and it's really just a method to break up the monotony. 

90lb military dumbell presses?  You're a beast!



You missed the part where I am actually unable to do them.  I can probably do a few 85s with a spotter, and 80s for 8 reps without a spotter.  But yeah, I seem to have unusually strong shoulders for my size (I'm about 5'8" 175lbs).

Now its moot though, because my gym only has 36kg dumbbells (i said 34 before), which is about 80 lbs.  Fucking hooray.

Regarding the declines, I find the opposite to generally be true...I usually see people are able to do less than their normal bench.  Probably a combination of not doing them very often combined with the fact that most people neglect their backs entirely.  Might depend on your gym.

K9 - I find that my range of motion gets strangely limited on the flat bench, and it can begin to bother my delts when the weights get heavy.  I am pretty sure that I am flaring out my elbows way too much...and that is primarily why I do the declines.  Not only does it allow me to move more weight (which is almost always a good thing), but I know my form is way better because my elbows are not all flared out.  It's just far more comfortable for me in all ways, so I stick to it.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on August 11, 2011, 02:30:10 PM
Google lists one in Southwark (http://www.crossfitcentrallondon.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=71&Itemid=122), but sod £100 per month. Crossfit seems good if your goal is to be an all-rounder, but it requires quite a lot of motivation to get results I think. I am slightly averse to joining a special cross-fit gym, but then I am fortunate to have access to two very good university gyms. Without that I might be a bit more tempted. Really the only bit of kit that a crossfit gym has that would really improve my workouts are good rings. Olympic bars, kettlebells and spots for chins and dips you can find in any half-decent gym.

£100 a month is definitely steep. I pay £20 for an okay gym that gives me what I need at the moment - i.e. a treadmill, some floor space and a shower. With the option of some weights when I get around to it. No kettleballs though but as and when I get around to using them for training, I'll reassess.

Then again, my goals are specific: run long, run far. The race 10 days ago was 100 miles around the Lake District (although I retired after 75) and I've got an 85 miler in just over two weeks. Common wisdom says you basically need to do loads and loads of long slow runs but I'm intrigued by the fact that some of the Crossfit guys reckon they only do three runs a week and no run further than 13 miles but they still complete 100 mile races (like the Western States in the US) in under 24 hours. That's the type of bodyhack thinking I can get behind which is why I want to find out more.

As a total aside, I've come to the decision over the last couple of days that I'm going to change my career. Fuck software development - fuck it in it's stupid arse. Provided I don't change my mind in the next couple of days, I'm going to retrain as a Level 3 Personal Trainer and start the course in September.  :drill:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: ghost on August 11, 2011, 02:46:58 PM
The £100 per month deal sounds more like it offers classes and actual training.  It sounds pretty awesome, really.  But then it ought to. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on August 11, 2011, 05:29:30 PM
Google lists one in Southwark (http://www.crossfitcentrallondon.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=71&Itemid=122), but sod £100 per month. Crossfit seems good if your goal is to be an all-rounder, but it requires quite a lot of motivation to get results I think. I am slightly averse to joining a special cross-fit gym, but then I am fortunate to have access to two very good university gyms. Without that I might be a bit more tempted. Really the only bit of kit that a crossfit gym has that would really improve my workouts are good rings. Olympic bars, kettlebells and spots for chins and dips you can find in any half-decent gym.
Then again, my goals are specific: run long, run far. The race 10 days ago was 100 miles around the Lake District (although I retired after 75) and I've got an 85 miler in just over two weeks. Common wisdom says you basically need to do loads and loads of long slow runs but I'm intrigued by the fact that some of the Crossfit guys reckon they only do three runs a week and no run further than 13 miles but they still complete 100 mile races (like the Western States in the US) in under 24 hours. That's the type of bodyhack thinking I can get behind which is why I want to find out more.

I suspect part of this is due to the bloody-minded nature of the average crosfitter  :grin:

Doing heavy lifting can definitely improve your stamina, I do very little cardio other than the six miles in and out of work on a bike and I did 22 miles at the weekend from Fulham up to Hampstead Heath and back without much difficulty. I could have gone further, and this was after doing eight sets of bodyweight squats the day before.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on September 02, 2011, 09:23:52 AM
Just signed up to run my first half in October.   Coming off an overuse injury (protip: change your damn running shoes when they start causing issues, not a month or two later). so I may end up looking into the various run/walk plans that get mentioned so as to prevent re-injury.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on September 02, 2011, 09:35:48 AM
protip: change your damn running shoes when they start causing issues, not a month or two later

Excellent tip.  As someone over 40 that runs, I always buy well-cushioned trainers and replace them every 300 miles or so.  It has helped keep my knees in good shape. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on September 02, 2011, 10:03:14 AM
protip: change your damn running shoes when they start causing issues, not a month or two later

Excellent tip.  As someone over 40 that runs, I always buy well-cushioned trainers and replace them every 300 miles or so.  It has helped keep my knees in good shape. 

I  was just being dumb and had a series of events lined up that I didn't want to try and break in new shoes with. So instead, it ended up being a month of hobbling around and PT with a bit of something (maybe ITBS, maybe some strained lower back muscles, maybe both! It's the gift that keeps giving).   But yes, I had figured that the 300-500 mile shoe thing was overstated and mostly driven by marketing.  It really isn't.   


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on September 02, 2011, 12:11:15 PM
protip: change your damn running shoes when they start causing issues, not a month or two later

Excellent tip.  As someone over 40 that runs, I always buy well-cushioned trainers and replace them every 300 miles or so.  It has helped keep my knees in good shape. 

I  was just being dumb and had a series of events lined up that I didn't want to try and break in new shoes with. So instead, it ended up being a month of hobbling around and PT with a bit of something (maybe ITBS, maybe some strained lower back muscles, maybe both! It's the gift that keeps giving).   But yes, I had figured that the 300-500 mile shoe thing was overstated and mostly driven by marketing.  It really isn't.   

You can tell if you need to replace your trainers with a simple test: put them on a table top or similar flat surface. If they rock from side to side then replace them as they've worn down unequally (likely becuase of pronation etc.) The 300-500 mile guideline is okay but generally only if you're pounding concrete. If you do a lot of off-road running, you might get away with double that. (I have one pair of trainers that are nearing the end of their useful life after nearly 800 miles and that's mainly because the uppers are coming away. YMMV - literally.)

But new trainers aren't a panacea for all running injuries. If you think you've got ITB problems (do you work behind a desk?) then you need to address that before it gets serious. Mostly you can do it through stretching the hip flexors, some strengthening and, if you can, go see a good physio for an assessment (and a massage?)

As a total aside, I'm about to start researching this whole barefoot/minimalist running stuff which people swear stops them getting injuries. I'm not convinced but don't know enough about it to make a judgement. I'm trying to keep an open mind.

Good luck with your half btw.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on September 02, 2011, 12:16:23 PM
I heard a great line from a shoe salesman the other day.  He asked me about my running and I told him that I was fairly neutral but tended to supinate when I got tired.  He says to me "Oh, you mean that you under-pronate".  I smiled and thanked him for his time. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on September 02, 2011, 12:40:57 PM
protip: change your damn running shoes when they start causing issues, not a month or two later


You can tell if you need to replace your trainers with a simple test: put them on a table top or similar flat surface. If they rock from side to side then replace them as they've worn down unequally (likely becuase of pronation etc.) The 300-500 mile guideline is okay but generally only if you're pounding concrete. If you do a lot of off-road running, you might get away with double that. (I have one pair of trainers that are nearing the end of their useful life after nearly 800 miles and that's mainly because the uppers are coming away. YMMV - literally.)

But new trainers aren't a panacea for all running injuries. If you think you've got ITB problems (do you work behind a desk?) then you need to address that before it gets serious. Mostly you can do it through stretching the hip flexors, some strengthening and, if you can, go see a good physio for an assessment (and a massage?)

As a total aside, I'm about to start researching this whole barefoot/minimalist running stuff which people swear stops them getting injuries. I'm not convinced but don't know enough about it to make a judgement. I'm trying to keep an open mind.

Good luck with your half btw.

I'm sadly on a first name basis with the physio guys at this point (funnily enough, not even all from running - I was at the beach and had my shoulder fucked up by a wave crashing on it.  And then my wife had to visit them for awhile due to our second child throwing her pelvis out of alignment.).  

I've been doing physio now for almost a month at this point - mostly stretching and strength work, along with massage to try and get certain things to release.  On my own, it's 20-30 minutes of stretching/strength work a day, on top of my usual routine of weekly yoga.  Of course, most of the recommended things he has me doing are yoga (child pose, pigeon, lying spinal twist) and I've added a few other recommended for more hip, IT band, and hamstring work.   And it definitely all seems to be getting better - I did an easy five miles last night and while I was sore, it was nothing like what was happening when this first hit me.  So it's one of those things that'll just take time to really work through I think.

When I started looking at new shoes, I was eyeing the minimalist stuff - but there's a LOT of reports now that they're causing as many problems as they solve.  Just different ones.  Rather than shin splints, you get metatarsal stress fractures.   I figured I'd just stick with my Brooks Defyance's instead, since they've treated me very well.



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on September 02, 2011, 12:45:49 PM
I just picked up a pair of Brooks Ghost 4's (http://www.brooksrunning.com/Brooks-Ghost-4-Mens-Running-Shoe/110098,default,pd.html), and I love them!  I've been an Asics Nimbus guy for years, but after only a few miles I'm sold on these shoes.  The fact that they're also $30 cheaper is a bonus!


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on September 02, 2011, 12:59:40 PM
I just picked up a pair of Brooks Ghost 4's (http://www.brooksrunning.com/Brooks-Ghost-4-Mens-Running-Shoe/110098,default,pd.html), and I love them!  I've been an Asics Nimbus guy for years, but after only a few miles I'm sold on these shoes.  The fact that they're also $30 cheaper is a bonus!

I really wanted to try a set of Ghost 4's - I'm hearing a lot of people rave about them over the old 3's (which I tried and was pretty enh about).



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Jimbo on September 02, 2011, 01:32:52 PM
I switched to Brooks too!  I'm wearing the Beast (http://www.brooksrunning.com/Brooks-Beast-Best-Motion-Control-Running-Shoe/1100794E099.160,default,pd.html?start=1&cgid=mens-runningshoes-control) from them, and Addiction-walker (http://www.brooksrunning.com/Addiction-Walker/1100392E111.140,default,pd.html?start=5&cgid=mens-walkingshoes) which is there all white leather which is a great hospital shoe if your department wants and all white shoe, they have all black if that is what is in the dress code too (mine wants white, the other one I start PRN at wants black...go figure!).


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on September 02, 2011, 03:21:55 PM
Brooks are awesome. I wore Beast for years when I was doing lots of road running. Switched to Ravenna this year and got a pair of trail shoes from them too which have been great - no blisters, feels like I've been wearing them for years (in a good way).

When I started looking at new shoes, I was eyeing the minimalist stuff - but there's a LOT of reports now that they're causing as many problems as they solve.  Just different ones.  Rather than shin splints, you get metatarsal stress fractures.   I figured I'd just stick with my Brooks Defyance's instead, since they've treated me very well.

What little I have looked into regarding minimalist stuff so far, this doesn't surprise me - not because it's anything to do with running barefoot but because people just think they can put on a pair of Vibrams and go running like they usually do.

Skip to the end if you're not interested in my musings:


What I've read so far is that minimalist running requires a total change in technique - shorter stride pace, quicker cadence, forefoot/midfoot landing, more fluid motion and, most importantly, less impacting foot strikes. It's not something that can be rushed into though - for a start, no padding on the heel in particular means that you're achilles and calf are going to work harder than they're used to because they're going to get stretched more. So switching to minimalist shoes is not something someone does unless they're prepared to spend weeks or even months changing the way they run.

What strike me about all this, though, is that it's describing something similar to the technique I was taught 25 years ago when I started getting coached properly on the track (as a sprinter and long jumper). It wasn't revolutionary thinking - it was just my coach trying to get me to run properly - like a sprinter instead of a rugby player. I have a suspicion that the same thing is happening here - the people who find success using barefoot/pose method/chi running or whatever are doing so because they're learning to run more efficiently: not letting the hips sag, avoiding heel strikes, getting a better range of motion with their legs, having a better posture etc. But now I'm at a point where I want to find out more.

tl;dr I don't know that much about minimalist running. Yet.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: NowhereMan on September 03, 2011, 10:09:27 AM
Yeah from what I've read on minimalist stuff for running it's really that if you're not running the way your body is 'designed' to then something lets you know about it pretty soon. If you ease into it and practice the correct form it can clear up issues people have had but mostly because you're being forced to run in a way your body copes well with rather than any magical thing from getting rid of padding and protection of the foot. If you don't change your running style you'll end up a lot worse off than sticking with well padded and properly fitted shoes.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on September 05, 2011, 12:25:28 AM
Other things our bodies weren't designed for:

Clean water
Cooked food
Medicine
Beds
Toilets
Toothbrushes

I'm being snarky, but I don't buy into that minimalist footwear stuff (unless you're hardcore like that Cody guy on Dual Survival).  Plus, don't forget the biggest reason:  they look enormously stupid.  Quite probably the lamest looking footwear ever invented.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: NowhereMan on September 05, 2011, 09:17:39 AM
The 'designed' was very much in quotes, the point being (if you buy into the minimalist hype) having all that cushioning lets us run in ways our bodies aren't really set up to cope with. Heel striking isn't particularly comfortable without a load of cushioning to take the force once you get past a very slow jog. Of course some people also insist that running on concrete will kill you pretty quick since our ancestors never had to run on such hard and regular surfaces and our bodies can't cope, though I believe that there's no strong statistical difference in injury rates for runners who tend to use different surfaces.

As far as looking stupid are you thinking of the Vibrams? They certainly do look awful but there are quite a lot of other makes of minimalist footwear around as well. I've got a pair of Merrel trailgloves that don't look any stupider than other running shoe I've owned and I think you could probably get away with wearing their tough glove as a casual shoe.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on September 05, 2011, 10:29:12 AM
Shoes are similar technology to shock absorbers.  Running with minimal cushioning means that your knees are taking maximal pounding unless you drastically alter your form.  I'd argue that you'd almost have to speedwalk to avoid excess knee trauma while running in the minimalist things.  I know what 40+ years of pounding does to joints as I wake up in pain every morning.  I like my knees.  I wear as much cushioning in my shoes as I reasonably can.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Mosesandstick on September 05, 2011, 10:41:18 AM
Bit OT, but anybody have experience with buying wide trainers?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on September 05, 2011, 10:47:52 AM
Bit OT, but anybody have experience with buying wide trainers?

The Ghost 4's I just bought are 2E width, if that's what you mean.  When I buy trainers, I try to find them in a brick & mortar and see how much room I have in the toe box.  Then I go online and buy the 2E versions adjusting for the extra length it took to make them stop feeling so snug.  Usually 2E's are a 1/2 size smaller than what I'd wear in a standard width. 

I hope that's what you were after. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Mosesandstick on September 05, 2011, 11:09:17 AM
I never thought of that, thanks. I have unusually wide feet, and bought my first pair of wide trainers last week. They feel more comfortable, but I still get pains in my feet when walking and I'm pretty sure I'm not flat footed (done the wet test and everything).


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on September 05, 2011, 01:35:45 PM
Bit OT, but anybody have experience with buying wide trainers?

The big problem with having to go wide is that it does cut down your options by quite a bit.  That said, I usually wear a 9.5 shoe, but my Brooks Defyance 4's are a 10EE. 

If you can find a local running store, they're usually really good at doing a gait analysis (neutral/over/under pronation) and fitting you for the proper shoes.



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on September 06, 2011, 12:16:02 AM
As far as looking stupid are you thinking of the Vibrams? They certainly do look awful but there are quite a lot of other makes of minimalist footwear around as well. I've got a pair of Merrel trailgloves that don't look any stupider than other running shoe I've owned and I think you could probably get away with wearing their tough glove as a casual shoe.

If Vibrams are those things that have an individual compartment for each of your piggies, then yes, those things.  They look like aquasox for the mentally impaired.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on September 06, 2011, 03:31:21 AM
I never thought of that, thanks. I have unusually wide feet, and bought my first pair of wide trainers last week. They feel more comfortable, but I still get pains in my feet when walking and I'm pretty sure I'm not flat footed (done the wet test and everything).

Pain in your feet while walking isn't good. Whereabouts is the pain?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Mosesandstick on September 06, 2011, 03:49:40 AM
Usually in the arch of the foot. I can't really describe why or how it pops up. I'm definitely heavy (working on it), but the shoe feels like it fits decently, thoug the heel is a bit lose, but if I start walking I just end up with an ache the feels like its in the arch of my foot.

The other problem I have with me feet is that they're big as well as wide. I'm somewhere around a size 12.5 (UK) which makes it a bit difficult to find shoes.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on September 06, 2011, 05:23:58 AM
Yeah, I hear that. I don't have quite so many problems as I'm more of an 11.5 - 12 which seems to be easier to find these days.

If you've got a pain in your arch then there's a lot of things it could be - plantar fascitis is normally felt in the heel under the calcaneus (heel bone) but it's not unheard of for the pain to be felt directly in the arch of the foot too (in the plantar fascia). Other symptoms could be tight achilles (the plantar fascia can also be put under strain while walking if there's tension in the achilles) or, rather than flat feet, your arches are quite high and so stretch too much under weight if they're not adequately supported.  If you feel like the heel is la bit loose then it may well be that the shoe is not providing enough support.

Only way to be sure, obviously, is go see a doctor or a podiatrist (who would no doubt suggest very expensive custom made orthotics).


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Mosesandstick on September 06, 2011, 06:00:18 AM
Thanks for the advice. Will probably check in with a doctor. Could very well be the achilles, my martial art involves break falling using the feet (either by landing on the ball or the heel).


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: NowhereMan on September 07, 2011, 04:30:01 PM
As far as looking stupid are you thinking of the Vibrams? They certainly do look awful but there are quite a lot of other makes of minimalist footwear around as well. I've got a pair of Merrel trailgloves that don't look any stupider than other running shoe I've owned and I think you could probably get away with wearing their tough glove as a casual shoe.

If Vibrams are those things that have an individual compartment for each of your piggies, then yes, those things.  They look like aquasox for the mentally impaired.

That's them. I do a bit of weight lifting stuff in them but just feel too self-conscious to wear them out running. Fortunately for me not all minimalist footwear looks as instantly ridiculous. (http://www.merrell.com/US/en-US/Product.mvc.aspx/22875M/50390/Mens/Barefoot-Trail-Glove)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Sky on September 12, 2011, 08:17:12 AM
Shoes are similar technology to shock absorbers.  Running with minimal cushioning means that your knees are taking maximal pounding unless you drastically alter your form.  I'd argue that you'd almost have to speedwalk to avoid excess knee trauma while running in the minimalist things.  I know what 40+ years of pounding does to joints as I wake up in pain every morning.  I like my knees.  I wear as much cushioning in my shoes as I reasonably can.
If you're not going to wear your shock absorbers, you could always run on the surfaces legs were 'designed' for :) Barefoot trail running ftw.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: ghost on September 12, 2011, 09:15:09 AM
I do all my exercising in 5 fingers and it's great.  I can't use regular shoes any more. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on September 12, 2011, 09:31:24 AM
I see absolutely no joint advantage to running barefoot or in rubber-bottomed socks.  Considering the work that has been done on my knees over the years, I can't even imagine running in anything less than a well-cushioned trainer. 

Is there any research backing these new toe shoes?  I can see them being great as water socks or for climbing, but not for running. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: ghost on September 12, 2011, 09:34:26 AM
Not any research that I've seen.  I'm not doing any serious running in them, but I know that some folks have run marathons in them and did okay.  Serious marathoner shoes have always been pretty minimalist, so maybe it's not too much of a change for them.  For the average joe, however, it probably comes back to the deal that everyone is unique to an extent.  Some folks would do better with a minimalist shoe and some won't.  

As a funny aside, I played golf in my vibrams the other day and it was pretty awesome.  


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on September 12, 2011, 09:37:47 AM
As a funny aside, I played golf in my vibrams the other day and it was pretty awesome.  

Play golf barefoot.  The greens feel awesome!


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: ghost on September 12, 2011, 09:49:50 AM
I worry some about the shit the sprinkle on the greens and fairways.  I get enough pesticides and fertilizer in my diet.   :grin:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: bhodi on September 12, 2011, 10:35:32 AM
I see absolutely no joint advantage to running barefoot or in rubber-bottomed socks.  Considering the work that has been done on my knees over the years, I can't even imagine running in anything less than a well-cushioned trainer.  

Is there any research backing these new toe shoes?  I can see them being great as water socks or for climbing, but not for running.  
There are some not really ironclad studies (nature (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v463/n7280/full/nature08723.html), performed by this lab (http://www.barefootrunning.fas.harvard.edu/)), cautiously showing there may be benefits. That one centers around the fact that heelstrikes are bad and, if you have lousy posture, feedback quickly corrects your barefoot running form to prevent heelstrikes. There's also some ancillary evidence talking about more strength in some of the smaller muscle groups used for balance which can also prevent injury.

But they're awful for climbing. You can't really climb in them because of the separated toes. Instead of your weight being spread out over your entire foot, it's concentrated generally on your big toe. They've got the grip (most climbing shoes are made with vibram rubber) but you can't lever all your weight on a single toe.

They're good for water, obviously, assuming you get the full foot one. Unfortunately, sand DOES still get in them and it's pretty obnoxious.

I ran a 5k in them earlier this year, for what it's worth.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: shiznitz on September 12, 2011, 11:25:42 AM
I worry some about the shit the sprinkle on the greens and fairways.  I get enough pesticides and fertilizer in my diet.   :grin:

Don't lick your feet and it won;t matter what's on them.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on September 12, 2011, 12:40:08 PM
There are some not really ironclad studies (nature (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v463/n7280/full/nature08723.html), performed by this lab (http://www.barefootrunning.fas.harvard.edu/)), cautiously showing there may be benefits. That one centers around the fact that heelstrikes are bad and, if you have lousy posture, feedback quickly corrects your barefoot running form to prevent heelstrikes. There's also some ancillary evidence talking about more strength in some of the smaller muscle groups used for balance which can also prevent injury.

Makes a lot of sense.  Thanks for the links.  I'm surprised I missed the Nature paper as I usually read Nature.  I can see how it would be corrective to form and help ancillary muscles, but knowing a bit about the calculation of forces, the knee takes quite a pounding over time.  I have to think that cushioned shoes are still far superior with regard to maximizing cartilage life and durability.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Der Helm on September 12, 2011, 12:42:26 PM
Could that be because the human body is not "designed" ( :grin: ) to last as long as it does these days ?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on September 12, 2011, 12:45:06 PM
Could that be because the human body is not "designed" ( :grin: ) to last as long as it does these days ?

I was going to mention that, but didn't want to start that discussion for the Nth time.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Der Helm on September 12, 2011, 01:25:02 PM
You are welcome, then.  :awesome_for_real:

Carry on.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: ghost on September 12, 2011, 02:12:53 PM
I worry some about the shit the sprinkle on the greens and fairways.  I get enough pesticides and fertilizer in my diet.   :grin:

Don't lick your feet and it won;t matter what's on them.

Hey, if you can play golf without licking your feet then you must be a better player than I am. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on September 13, 2011, 12:43:09 AM
As a funny aside, I played golf in my vibrams the other day and it was pretty awesome.  

As long as you are aware that you looked like a complete tool, then I suppose that's cool  :awesome_for_real:

The only research I've ever heard of on those things amounts to "hey! our primitive ancestors NEVER wore shoes!"  Of course, they also lived to be about 32.  Maybe because they couldn't run fast enough to escape the big scary dinosaurs and stuff.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on September 13, 2011, 04:09:53 AM
I see absolutely no joint advantage to running barefoot or in rubber-bottomed socks.  Considering the work that has been done on my knees over the years, I can't even imagine running in anything less than a well-cushioned trainer.  

Is there any research backing these new toe shoes?  I can see them being great as water socks or for climbing, but not for running.  

So in the last week since we had this discussion, I've been doing a fair bit of reading around on this topic  There are a lot of studies about running injuries, shoes vs barefoot, footstrike and gait etc. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Link&db=pubmed&dbFrom=PubMed&from_uid=9429006).  I didn't have time (or money) to read many of them though. But this article (http://www.sportsci.org/jour/0103/mw.htm) from sportsscience.org does an overview of a lot of studies (and references them) from as far back as 1983. There are studies that show that padded shoes appear to cause more injuries - like this one (http://www.pmrjournal.org/article/S1934-1482%2809%2901367-7/fulltext) - but it's written by someone who may, or may not, have a vested interest. (http://oeshshoes.com/)

A more recent, 2007 study (Incidence and determinants of lower extremity running injuries in long distance runners: a systematic review (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2465455/?tool=pubmed)) explicitly reviewed over 1000 studies and found that only 17 studies matched their criteria. Even then, I have some queries about their findings (namely - they found that most injuries ocurred in the knee but they don't appear to show the nature of those injuries which could be cartilage or could be patellafemoral etc.) They also didn't seem to include many studies on the effect of shoes but that might be me not understanding their tables. A lot of my takeaway from reading this that all the other studies provide low quality or conflicting results.

tl;dr - no studies have conclusively shown that barefoot running lowers or increases injury rate BUT equally, no studies have conclusively shown that padded trainers lower or increase injury rate either.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Sky on September 13, 2011, 08:26:23 AM
Swim instead.

Barefoot.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on September 13, 2011, 09:02:14 AM
Swim instead.

Barefoot.

Studies have shown that you're more likely to get attacked by a shark while swimming barefoot than you are if you go running barefoot.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Sky on September 13, 2011, 09:42:04 AM
I should have a word with the lifeguards at the pool, then.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Merusk on September 13, 2011, 11:23:48 AM
Swimming can fuck you up in other ways.. but it takes a long, long ass time to do it.  (Hello hyperextended knee and tendonitis of the shoulders.)

On the other hand, I remember hearing a recent study found that regular swimmers lived longer than even people in better shape than themselves.  Nobody's quite figured out why.  I should add the pool back in to my routine now that I've got muscles again.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on September 14, 2011, 05:51:24 PM
How do you define 'better shape' though?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on October 13, 2011, 04:12:50 PM
Picked up my bib tonight.  First half on Saturday - my daughter is going to be doing the kids run with Mommy while Daddy tries to remember he thought running 13.1 miles was a good idea.

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-lPJc-73bMmg/TpdWP4_1N1I/AAAAAAAAFg8/0AX9IpwdT_c/s800/11%252520-%2525201%252520%2525281%252529.jpg)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Furiously on October 13, 2011, 11:53:32 PM
Is there crab at the end?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on October 14, 2011, 02:57:56 PM
Picked up my bib tonight.  First half on Saturday - my daughter is going to be doing the kids run with Mommy while Daddy tries to remember he thought running 13.1 miles was a good idea.

Good luck JWIV - hope it goes well and, more than that, hope you enjoy it!

On a side note, I signed up for Fitocracy (http://www.fitocracy.com/) today after seeing the XKCD.com cartoon about it (and then found that it's all over CNN too). It's basically an exercised based social game with MMO/RPG-esque mechanics. You earn "XP" for any exercises you do and get levels, complete quests, earn achievements and other shit. Amused me for at least half an hour (and fortunately ties in with RunKeeper which is what I normally save my workouts too).

Anyone else signed up on it at all?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: luckton on October 14, 2011, 06:20:16 PM
Picked up my bib tonight.  First half on Saturday - my daughter is going to be doing the kids run with Mommy while Daddy tries to remember he thought running 13.1 miles was a good idea.

Good luck JWIV - hope it goes well and, more than that, hope you enjoy it!

On a side note, I signed up for Fitocracy (http://www.fitocracy.com/) today after seeing the XKCD.com cartoon about it (and then found that it's all over CNN too). It's basically an exercised based social game with MMO/RPG-esque mechanics. You earn "XP" for any exercises you do and get levels, complete quests, earn achievements and other shit. Amused me for at least half an hour (and fortunately ties in with RunKeeper which is what I normally save my workouts too).

Anyone else signed up on it at all?

I signed up to get notice about it, but I'm not 'in'.  Is there anyone actually in that hook a playa' up?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on October 15, 2011, 03:58:02 AM
Picked up my bib tonight.  First half on Saturday - my daughter is going to be doing the kids run with Mommy while Daddy tries to remember he thought running 13.1 miles was a good idea.

Good luck JWIV - hope it goes well and, more than that, hope you enjoy it!

On a side note, I signed up for Fitocracy (http://www.fitocracy.com/) today after seeing the XKCD.com cartoon about it (and then found that it's all over CNN too). It's basically an exercised based social game with MMO/RPG-esque mechanics. You earn "XP" for any exercises you do and get levels, complete quests, earn achievements and other shit. Amused me for at least half an hour (and fortunately ties in with RunKeeper which is what I normally save my workouts too).

Anyone else signed up on it at all?

I signed up to get notice about it, but I'm not 'in'.  Is there anyone actually in that hook a playa' up?

Yep - I'm on it as jwiv

Luckton - check your PMs, I sent you an invite link.



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: stray on October 15, 2011, 03:59:38 AM
This is a perfect workout for fatasses trying to reclaim lost glory. Possibly played football once, but then got married and became a middle manager.

Won't do any wonders for the scrawny geek demographic. They've got it harder actually.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: climbjtree on October 15, 2011, 05:04:55 AM
Edit: Thanks JWIV. In as rldmoto.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: climbjtree on October 15, 2011, 05:43:00 AM
Ok, so I logged my last work out and jumped to level four immediately, got an achievement and then spent some time rooting around through the quests to see when I'd be getting other achievements.

This thing is pretty sweet, and I dig the social aspect of it. Definitely going to recommend it to other friends of mine.

I also think that you don't need to be someone who's a fitness nut to get involved. It's got descriptions of all the exercises you'd want to do and I really think the social aspect of it will provide motivation for people who aren't super into working out.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: luckton on October 15, 2011, 08:26:09 AM

Luckton - check your PMs, I sent you an invite link.



Thanks, mang!  :grin:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Merusk on October 15, 2011, 09:15:21 PM
Looks interesting. I signed up just to check it out when it's open.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on October 17, 2011, 12:42:40 AM
How does it work, exactly?  Are you guys in some sort of group/guild, or is it just every man for himself?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on October 17, 2011, 03:03:09 AM
How does it work, exactly?  Are you guys in some sort of group/guild, or is it just every man for himself?

There are groups you can join but on the whole, it's everyone for themselves. I've added an F13 tag to my profile (which is TrailDragon there rather than this one) Haven't delved into it far beyond that apart from having a look at some of the achievements and quests. Danger for me with it all is letting my achiever side take over and try to get achievements done at the expense of my own training goals (yes I might like to be able to deadlift twice my own body weight but I'm not sure it's going to help me).


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on October 17, 2011, 04:15:31 AM
Well, I'm curious.  Any way I can get an invite, or is it just closed at this point?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on October 17, 2011, 04:37:52 AM
DM me your email and I'll send you an invite. (I got in by logging in with my Runkeeper account so if you have one of those, you could try that.)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on October 17, 2011, 05:05:48 AM
PM Sent


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: climbjtree on October 17, 2011, 05:54:29 AM
I added the F13 tag to my profile and went ahead and created an F13 group. That's probably easier than trying to follow everyone, as I think our workouts are automatically posted to groups.

I sent invites to JWIV and TrailDragon, but I'm pretty sure the group is open.

And oh, someone make a better logo. I just cropped the f13.net logo from here.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: NowhereMan on October 17, 2011, 06:33:17 AM
If any of you are SomethingAwful members the Watch and Woot board there has been pretty excited over this, unsurprisingly one or two of the development guys for it are goons and they've been giving out free accounts to anyone on SA that asks.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on October 24, 2011, 07:27:01 AM
DM me your email and I'll send you an invite. (I got in by logging in with my Runkeeper account so if you have one of those, you could try that.)

Belated thanks for the invite.

I find this....interesting.  I don't really have motivation problems when it comes to working out (I usually have the opposite problem....knowing when to take a freaking break).  Still, I find myself consciously thinking about this stuff when I am working out.

Some of the quests seem kind of weird and potentially counter-productive, but I could definitely see it being helpful to people who need a carrot to chase.

They need to figure out how to integrate some kind of random loot engine, so that I can have an avatar and eventually equip him with giant spikey shoulderpads.  I'm only half kidding.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Merusk on October 24, 2011, 08:08:43 AM
I'm finding it's difficult to enter my workouts correctly.  Some of the machines my gym has don't seem to be on their lists, meaning I've got to pick the closest alternate.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on October 24, 2011, 03:05:57 PM
I'm finding it's difficult to enter my workouts correctly.  Some of the machines my gym has don't seem to be on their lists, meaning I've got to pick the closest alternate.

I found that today - two or three of the exercises I did (of six!) weren't in the list. You've reminded me that I need to email them about it.

Belated thanks for the invite.

I find this....interesting.  I don't really have motivation problems when it comes to working out (I usually have the opposite problem....knowing when to take a freaking break).  Still, I find myself consciously thinking about this stuff when I am working out.

Some of the quests seem kind of weird and potentially counter-productive, but I could definitely see it being helpful to people who need a carrot to chase.

They need to figure out how to integrate some kind of random loot engine, so that I can have an avatar and eventually equip him with giant spikey shoulderpads.  I'm only half kidding.

Yeah, I've noticed that about the quests and the achievements. I'll have to reign in my achiever tendencies so as not to decide to aim to be able to bench press my own weight or whatever it is. It's a tempting goal to work to but I absolutely do not need to do it. The sub 6 minute mile, however, is another story!  :grin:

The loot idea is.... interesting.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on October 24, 2011, 03:07:48 PM
Yeah, I've noticed that about the quests and the achievements. I'll have to reign in my achiever tendencies so as not to decide to aim to be able to bench press my own weight or whatever it is. It's a tempting goal to work to but I absolutely do not need to do it. The sub 6 minute mile, however, is another story!  :grin:

I'll make you a deal.  I'll bench your body weight and you run the sub 6 mile for me.  We can powerlevel each other!


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on October 24, 2011, 03:12:39 PM
Yeah, I've noticed that about the quests and the achievements. I'll have to reign in my achiever tendencies so as not to decide to aim to be able to bench press my own weight or whatever it is. It's a tempting goal to work to but I absolutely do not need to do it. The sub 6 minute mile, however, is another story!  :grin:

I'll make you a deal.  I'll bench your body weight and you run the sub 6 mile for me.  We can powerlevel each other!

Done!  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on October 25, 2011, 12:21:15 AM
I'm pretty sure that's against the EULA! 

The achievements appear to be generally good ones, depending one what your specific goals are.  The weightlifting ones are perfectly valid, for example...being able to bench your body weight, or deadlift 1.5 times your wait (et.c) are pretty normal goals people set for themselves.  The weirdness I was referring to was more in some of the "quests" themselves...such as the ones that require you to do ten sets of something in a single week.  I deliberately try to avoid stuff like that for the most part, as it can actually be counter-productive to making actual progress.

But whatever.  It's still a good idea. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on October 25, 2011, 12:29:28 AM
German volume training (http://www.muscleandstrength.com/articles/german-volume-training-for-shocking-muscle-growth.html) would take care of that.  You do 10 sets of 10 reps for a single exercise to get a complete breakdown of the associated muscle.  It's great for getting gains when you've plateaued. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on October 31, 2011, 01:39:27 AM
German volume training (http://www.muscleandstrength.com/articles/german-volume-training-for-shocking-muscle-growth.html) would take care of that.  You do 10 sets of 10 reps for a single exercise to get a complete breakdown of the associated muscle.  It's great for getting gains when you've plateaued. 

That's an interesting looking program, I might have to try it.  My comments on the counter-productiveness of 10 sets a weeks was more thinking about the people who spend every session on the bench press.  I.e. 5 sets on Monday, 5 sets on Tuesday, 5 sets on Wednesday, etc., for the whole damn week.  This GVT thing makes actual sense, because it still has a sensible split. 

Meanwhile, I was able to perform squats yesterday for the first time in about a year-and-a-half!  I probably mentioned earlier in this thread that I have had a fairly significant bulging/herniated disc in my L5, and injury that dates back to spring of 2010  (ironically caused by deadlifts, in that I've since been back to doing deads just fine, but have had to stay away from the squat rack).  I've been noticing lately that I have been in significantly less pain than usual through the course of an average day, so I decided to try some relatively light squats.  I was surprised to find out that I could do them pain free.  Kept the max weight fairly low (about 210 x5), as I figure I need to be careful...and since my legs are girlishly weak from lack of squats.

Still, as much as I hate actually performing squats, I am thrilled.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on October 31, 2011, 03:23:19 AM
Nebu - I'm looking more into that GVT link you posted....it is potentially very useful for me, because I have have definitely hit a few plateaus that I want to break through.  I have a question for you (assuming you've tried the routine);  while it says that it is a 10x10 routine that aims for 100 total reps, it also gives the conflicting message that you should "keep pushing out the extra reps"...and then it goes back to saying how you shouldn't worry about the easy first few sets, because you'll be begging for your mama by the later sets.  Bunch of conflicting things.  Basically, then, I wonder about how many reps I should really be attempting, especially for the first few sets.  I mean, at 50-60% of 1RM, it would be easy to exceed 10 reps early on...should you do so?  It seems you would potentially overload the front of the workout at the expense of the back end.

If in doubt, I think I would stick to doing exactly 10 reps every time.  Let me know what you think.  I think I am going to give this a whirl.  I'm a little bit scared, I don't mind saying.



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: NowhereMan on October 31, 2011, 04:15:43 AM
I think that article is saying you should be aiming for 100 reps but if you can't do that you should be doing as many as possible. I'd guess you leave the early sets on 10 reps for a good warm up that doesn't overtax you and then be trying for 10 reps on the final few sets. If you can manage it then next time you up the final weight by 5lbs and do that until you manage 100 reps with that weight.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on October 31, 2011, 05:01:15 AM
That sounds like a good way of reading it, thanks.  I'll give chest, shoulders and triceps a go today and let you guys know how much I hate Nebu tomorrow.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on October 31, 2011, 07:14:18 AM
I think that article is saying you should be aiming for 100 reps but if you can't do that you should be doing as many as possible. I'd guess you leave the early sets on 10 reps for a good warm up that doesn't overtax you and then be trying for 10 reps on the final few sets. If you can manage it then next time you up the final weight by 5lbs and do that until you manage 100 reps with that weight.

This.  The whole point of GVT is to completely obliterate all muscle fibers in the group involved.  You want to pick your weight so that you can do 10 reps pretty well for the first 5 sets.  By set 6, you'll start to feel the damage.  By set 9, you should be lucky to do 8 reps.  If you can crank out 100 reps, then add some weight the next week. 

You can get away with a 3-per-week using GVT. 
Mon: Chest/back supersets
Wed: Legs (focused work on quads/gluts)
Fri: Shoulders/Arm supersets

This kind of workout requires more rest than normal.  I work out 4-5 days a week and find that MWF destroys me. 

Hope that helps.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on October 31, 2011, 07:34:16 AM
So here's what I'm thinking:

Mon: Barbell bench press, Sitting Dumbbell shoulder presses, Skullcrushers
Weds: Pendlay Rows, Close gripped Lat pulldowns, preacher curls, ab machine
Fri: Squats, Leg Curls, calf raises

Half tempted to mix in Deadlifts somewhere, but all indications point to it being a bad idea. 

When I think of the 50-60% of the 1RM I have to use...man, it just doesn't sound hard.  I think I might be in for a rude surprise.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on October 31, 2011, 07:38:56 AM
I want you to consider this: Your triceps will get blasted during the bench.  No need to work them with skullcrushers.  This is why I work chest/back on the same day.  Chest works pecs and tris.  Back works lats and biceps.  With GVT you want to focus only on the major muscle groups.  The ancillary muscles will get plenty of work, believe me. 

I'm starting a new GVT today.  I'm going to do 6-10 weeks and then doing crossfit for a couple of months.  I'll try to post updates. 



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on October 31, 2011, 12:04:05 PM
I want you to consider this: Your triceps will get blasted during the bench.  No need to work them with skullcrushers.  This is why I work chest/back on the same day.  Chest works pecs and tris.  Back works lats and biceps.  With GVT you want to focus only on the major muscle groups.  The ancillary muscles will get plenty of work, believe me. 

I'm starting a new GVT today.  I'm going to do 6-10 weeks and then doing crossfit for a couple of months.  I'll try to post updates. 



I'm still thinking of doing some Crossfit. I sort of already am but in my own ubiquitous way and probably nowhere near as hardcore as the actual thing. Will be interested to know how you get on.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on October 31, 2011, 01:16:41 PM
I'm still thinking of doing some Crossfit. I sort of already am but in my own ubiquitous way and probably nowhere near as hardcore as the actual thing. Will be interested to know how you get on.

I'm dreading it to be honest.  While I'm pretty fit for lifting, I'm in bad aerobic condition.  I have a tough time running 3 miles in under 25 mins, but attribute it to being 30 lbs over my normal running weight.  I'm at a solid 205 lbs now (at 6' tall).  When I'm in my best aerobic condition, I'm much closer to 175 or so.  I just bought myself a power tower to help me get some of my mass off and sculpt to a more natural build.  

I'll keep you guys posted after New Years.  Of course, I'm open to hearing about the programs you guys are on.  Talk me out of crossfit, I beg you!

I forgot to add: GNC has these things for buy 1 get the 2nd 50% off.  I love these things.

(http://www.opamerica.com/images/blender-bottle.jpg)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on November 01, 2011, 02:07:14 AM
I want you to consider this: Your triceps will get blasted during the bench.  No need to work them with skullcrushers.  This is why I work chest/back on the same day.  Chest works pecs and tris.  Back works lats and biceps.  With GVT you want to focus only on the major muscle groups.  The ancillary muscles will get plenty of work, believe me. 

I was essentially just going after pretty much the exact program that was laid out in the article.  At any rate...

GVT Day 1:  Yeah, so the program is tough.  One of the harder parts of it for me is holding to the 60 - 90 second rest period between sets.  I don't usually time myself, and tend to take it fairly relaxed between sets, so I found that speeding up the pace was a bit of a challenge.  Sometimes you just don't quite feel ready to start that next set, but I forced myself anyway.

Start off with the barbell bench presses.  Wasn't really sure how much weight to use (not really sure what my 1RM is), so I went with 55 kg to be a bit on the conservative side.  It was a bit more challenging than I thought it would be, but I did manage to crank out all 100 reps by the end of the last set.  Was glad to be done with it.  In hindsight, I should have put a little more weight on the bar...will definitely do 60kg next week.  I just didn't struggle as much as I probably should have through the last few sets.

Next up, seated dumbell shoulder presses.  This is usually right in my wheel house, but my arms are already feeling a bit rubbery after all the bench presses.  Start off with 18kg per hand, which is still a bit on the light side for me.  Do three sets with that, and then move up to 20 kg per hand.  That's better, but ultimately probably still not quite enough.  I'm not loving life, but I do manage to crank out every last rep in relatively good shape.  Arms are rubbery, and can definitely tell that I have had a different kind of workout today.  Probably need to try 22kg per hand next week, because the challenge just wasn't quite enough for the last three sets...don't get me wrong, they sucked - but there was never any doubt in my mind that I would push them out.

Decided to go against the skullcrushers, because my arms are rubbery enough at this point that I genuinely feared I might end up with a broken nose if I tried them.  I did, however, still have something left in the tank, so like the article said I should, I kept pushing.  Chose simple cable triceps pushdowns.  Tried 25kg on the first set, but had to bump it down to 20kg from the second onwards, because while I seem to have plenty of endurance left, my power is just gone.  Manage to push out all 100 reps without too much trouble.

The day after.  I am not sore.  I can tell my arms are in a clearly weakened state (still quite rubbery), but I don't have any DOMS going on at all.  That's fine, I guess...I usually only ever get sore after I take a week or two off from lifting, or if I start an exercise I haven't tried in a while.  Still, I was expecting some amount of pain.  I already know that I need to increase weight a little both on the bench and the shoulders, so maybe that will help.  I need to get closer to failing these lifts.

Wednesday will be Pull day.  Not too worried about that, because, well....I like pulling?  Friday scares the bejeesus out of me.  That's going to hurt (because you'll remember from earlier that I am just getting back to the squats), and I like be able to walk like normal.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on November 01, 2011, 05:38:09 AM
I have a tough time running 3 miles in under 25 mins, but attribute it to being 30 lbs over my normal running weight.  I'm at a solid 205 lbs now (at 6' tall).

Yeah, you keep using that as an excuse. I haven't had the heart previously to tell you that I'm 6'2" and 200lbs (down from nearly 225 at the beginning of the year) Bet your body fat % is half mine too! :why_so_serious:



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on November 01, 2011, 06:20:43 AM
Hey, now...you forget that Nebu is a senior citizen.  Respect your elders and whatnot. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on November 01, 2011, 08:01:43 AM
Hey, now...you forget that Nebu is a senior citizen.  Respect your elders and whatnot. 

True. Those couple of years or so make all the difference.  :grin:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Merusk on November 01, 2011, 09:02:05 AM
Neb's previously mentioned his 6-pack.  His body fat % is probably pretty damn low for a guy half MY age, never mind his own.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on November 01, 2011, 09:10:25 AM
Hey, now...you forget that Nebu is a senior citizen.  Respect your elders and whatnot.  

It's the walker.  I'm mid-40's and it's hell to stay lean.  I've been on about 1200 Cal the past two weeks and it's making me REALLY crabby.  

Cyrrex: You should be fine today.  Tomorrow is when I feel it the most, but my recovery times tend to be a bit on the long side.  I spent Monday lunch doing chest/back and started with 155lb bench presses (barbell) and 132 lb narrow grip lat seated rows as a superset (crank out 10 bench presses and immediately do 10 seated rows, then take 60-90s rest).  I started to fail around 8 reps on bench at my 6th set.  By the 10th set, I could barely muster 6 reps.  I'm fine with this.  

My evening workout is usually a 3 mile run followed by naturals.  I do pushups (flat and incline), vertical knee raises, inclined situps with a medicine ball on my head, dips, wide and narrow grip pullups.  I try to do 3 sets of everything, though today I could barely do my wide grip pullups due to my lunch workout.  

Edit: I hate to admit it, but I've recently turned to thermogenics to help me cut some weight I picked up when my GF of two years dumped me.  For those of you considering thermogenics, I've found OxyElite pro to be about the best of the lot with Lipo6 to be a close second.  Hydroxycut is worthless.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on November 01, 2011, 10:05:13 AM
I'm shifting back to powerlifting for the winter I think. I have hardly benched or deadlifted all summer and I want to get back to heavy lifts. On the up side, I can max out hangcleans at my bodyweight (90kg) and I managed 3x60kg hang snatch the other day. I'm not sure how to balance olympic lifts with power lifts with bodyweight stuff (that I have been weaving in and out of since the start of the year). I don't have a chain belt so I'm not really going anywhere with my dips and chins now. I need to have a rethink about what my goals are I guess.

I'll keep you guys posted after New Years.  Of course, I'm open to hearing about the programs you guys are on.  Talk me out of crossfit, I beg you!

KIP ALL THE THINGS! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKp7fBtj81c)  :why_so_serious:

I can see the appeal of Crossfit, but the more I read about it the more I conclude that it is a high intensity exercise for ADD alpha-bro types designed by ADD alpha-bro types. There's a lot of good ideas in there, but there's also a lot of unstructured voodoo. I think they achieve most of their results through brute force and tears than by finesse; it doesn't seem like an efficient system. It probably depends on your goals though, if you are an all-out type of person then Crossfit will probably reap you some benefits, but then if you are that type of person you'd probably do just as well on any sufficiently interesting programme.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on November 01, 2011, 11:09:23 AM
It's the walker.  I'm mid-40's and it's hell to stay lean.  

Maybe a few more than a couple of years then! ;)

The closest I get to taking thermogenics is a liberal application of chilis in most meals. It has the bonus side effect of meaning that my wife won't eat any meals I make so I can make a huge batch of very hot chili and know it won't get eaten before I get home.

I can see the appeal of Crossfit, but the more I read about it the more I conclude that it is a high intensity exercise for ADD alpha-bro types designed by ADD alpha-bro types. There's a lot of good ideas in there, but there's also a lot of unstructured voodoo. I think they achieve most of their results through brute force and tears than by finesse; it doesn't seem like an efficient system.

Could you elaborate a bit on this - particularly about what you consider "unstructured voodoo" and why you don't think it's efficient?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Minvaren on November 01, 2011, 01:00:30 PM
Thanks to everyone for the shoe talk a few pages back.  Got a good pair of running shoes last week, and man does it make a difference.   :awesome_for_real:

Now to find some work shoes that give the same support...


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on November 02, 2011, 01:35:41 AM
Hey, now...you forget that Nebu is a senior citizen.  Respect your elders and whatnot.  

Cyrrex: You should be fine today.  Tomorrow is when I feel it the most, but my recovery times tend to be a bit on the long side.  I spent Monday lunch doing chest/back and started with 155lb bench presses (barbell) and 132 lb narrow grip lat seated rows as a superset (crank out 10 bench presses and immediately do 10 seated rows, then take 60-90s rest).  I started to fail around 8 reps on bench at my 6th set.  By the 10th set, I could barely muster 6 reps.  I'm fine with this.  


No pain whatsoever.  For now I will blame it on a combination of already being in good lifting shape, and also due to underestimating myself and not lifting heavy enough.  Like I said, I wasn't really in danger of failing reps.  I probably underestimated my 1RMs a little bit, and then I took 50% of that to stay conservative.  My puny 125 pound benches could have easily been 160 pound lifts if I had calculated more aggressively.

Even so, I'm not going to go too far to the other extreme.  I will add 10 pounds or so to the bar and see what happens next week.  And I'm still quite sure leg day is going to kill me.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on November 03, 2011, 01:50:04 AM
GVT Lifting Day 2 - Back, Biceps and Abs:

Did my first "pull" day yesterday.  Not feelling sore at all, but once again I can feel that my arms are fatigued and weak.  Whole workout was harder than I expected, and I find that it takes a bit of mental fortitude to get through every last set.  Tried to go with a 70 second rest between sets.

Close-Grip Pulldowns:  Decided to go with 75kg, based on a theoretical 1RM of 120kg (machine only goes up to 100, so I'm guessing a little).  Seems like a pretty good weight.  My lats and arms are fairly well burning by the last couple of reps in the last couple of sets, but I manage to get through them okay.  I will probably try 80kg next week.

Pendlay Barbell Rows:  Started with 40kg, based on a 1RM 75kg.  I probably went too conservative with the weight, but I find Pendlay Rows to be so awkward that I decided to keep it a bit on the low side until I can get a little bit more solid form.  Will probably go up to 45kg next week.  Even so, my arms are getting very weary by the last two sets.  I can barely crank out the final rep in 8, 9 and 10, but I manage it.  This exercise also seems to make me more arm weary than anything else, and I can feel almost nothing in my back. 

Crunches:  Did 30 simple sets between exercises, just to kill time and rest.  Didn't really plan on doing any major abs work anyway, as the squats on Friday will hit those well enough.

Seated Cable Rows:  Because of the lack of impact on my back from the Pendlays, I decided to add a 10x10 of Rows to my workout.  Believe me, at this point in the workout, that was no light decision to make.  My arms are fucking tired, and I'd just as soon curl up in a ball and weep for a while.  Nonetheless, I press on.  Set the machine to 45kg, which would ordinarily be a bit too low, but for this workout I was genuinely worried about being able to complete 10 sets.  It ended up being spot on.  I finished all 100 reps, but holy fuck the last 2 reps in the last 8 sets were tough.  I wanted to go home after the second set.  Damn are my arms tired.

Barbell Curls:  At this point in the workout, I really could have just called it a day.  My biceps are basically numb.  Still, I have a tiny bit left in the tank.  I am under no illusion that I will get more than about 3 sets of 10 here, even at a low weight.  I put 30kg on the bar (probably more like 27kg...no idea how much the curl bar here actually weighs).  God damn.  I somehow manage to crank out 2 sets, but that is IT.  This curl bar can go fuck itself for all I care.

Can't wait for Friday  :uhrr:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: bhodi on November 06, 2011, 08:21:18 PM
Since this the general workout thread, an update for myself; I decided after my shitty 5k that I really need to work on a more rounded exercise and that climbing, while fun, ain't doing it. Time to gain some muscle.

So, I'm hitting the gym with my roommate and his coworker mon-thurs and then climbing at some point on the weekend, generally Sat. I'm also increasing my intake with 1-2 350 cal ensure shakes per day plus a single protein shake since I can't easily increase my per-meal consumption or my number of meals. I hope to gain quite a bit of muscle though I'm not willing to strip out the occasional weekend beer drink and do the diet requirements for the Nebu-style abs.

I do whatever they tell me to do, which is generally 40 minutes of cardio (15 on leg day) Treadmill/Row machine/Eliptical/Stairclimber then 2 sets of 12 reps of each, weighted to failure on the end of the 2nd set. Roughly, Monday = Upper back, Tues = Legs/Lower Back, Wed = Arms, Thurs = core. Workouts look something like this, but are changed up every week, I think my roommate's coworker has a program that spits out workouts or something:

Leg Press
Leg Extension
Leg Curl
Dumbbell Lunges
Abductors
45 Calf Raises (flat to toes)
Decline Sit Up
Seated Calf raises (flat to dropped)
45 calf press (flat to heel)
Medicine Ball Sit Up
Twisting Sit Up

I'm about 3 weeks in. I was "waking up in the middle of the night" sore the first week. Now, it's just unpleasant. Still far away from the traditional "Bench 1.5x weight" and other traditional measures; I am much stronger in some muscles than others due to climbing and some things in particular like my chest have a ways to go.

Ultimately, I would like not only to bench 1.5% body weight but also complete an actual pullup-to-dip "mantle", something I have always wanted to be able to do. Fuck running, though. I feel like I gave it the college try. I still hate it.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: MuffinMan on November 06, 2011, 08:44:18 PM
I'm confused by this 1.5% body weight bench. Should that be 150%?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: bhodi on November 06, 2011, 09:17:33 PM
1.5x I meant. Obviously! Long week...


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on November 07, 2011, 02:28:10 AM
....(bhodi's routine)...

Hey bhodi - I'll get straight to it.  That program sounds....weird.  It's extremely (overly) leg intensive, and think it is possible that your roommate's co-worker has a calf fetish of some kind.  It's also too ab centric, especially when you consider doing abs in isolation isn't terribly necessary to begin with.  And then he changes it every week and mixes in loads and loads of cardio?  It's a bit too scattershot and unfocused, IMO.  The guys who workout like this may be in relatively good shape, but they never improve anything.

If you are really looking to put on muscle, there are far more efficient (and well known) methods.  Your first order of business is to go tell your roommate's co-worker to go workout with the other women.  :awesome_for_real:  Second, simplify and narrow down your workout using the following lifts:

Squats
Deadlifts
Bench Press (any incline/decline dumb/barbell variation)
Overhead presses (standing/seated dumb/barbell
Bent over or Pendlay rows - a good seated cable row would be okay as well
Pull/chin-ups or a good cable lat pulldown machine

And that is basically all you need to get a real solid base going.  Any ab, biceps, triceps, calves, etc., is basically superfluous in the beginning and only really need be done in moderation and only if you have something left in the tank after doing the above (i.e. always do them last or not at all).  You want to focus on the difficult compound lifts in the beginning.  Find a good split that divides your workout over a week into an intelligent split (i.e. only legs on leg day, etc.).  Unless you are specifically trying to improve your cardio, you should only do enough to maintain your current level - and you can do that with very little.  If you ARE trying to improve your cardio at the same time, then be aware that you are potentially working at cross purposes.  It is more efficient to focus on one thing or the other.  If you want to build muscle, you have to add bunches of extra calories, and doing too much cardio will just eat into that.

In short, go find a good 5x5 strength program that incorporates the above lifts.  That is a fantastic way to get started, and I am very much speaking from experience.

One last piece of advice:  Have a goal or two that you want to reach.  A long term one (for example, my long term one is to look like one of the cast of 300), and a short term one (I am still working towards that damn 40kg per hand dumbell shoulder press).  It will help you focus and plan better, I have found.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on November 07, 2011, 02:41:47 AM
GVT Lifting Day 3 - The Dreaded Leg Day

Three days later, and my quads are still stinging a bit.  At least I can walk straight now, which is more than I could say for yesterday.

The squats were a bitch.  Only 65kg on the bar, I was practically laughing at how simple they were for the first 3 or 4 sets.  By the 10th rep of the 10th set, I wanted to barf until death took me.  The squats practically melted my face off.  Much of this is simply because I am out of squatting condition.  Despite the pain, which honestly wasn't quite as bad as I was expecting, I will put on at least 5kg more next week.

But damn, my legs were wobbly afterwards.  I'll not even bother to discuss the leg curls and calf raises I followed up with, because they were trivial in comparison.  Hilariously, the gym I work out at decided to put five flights of stairs down to the changing room, and boy was that fun to negotiate when you are having an out-of-body experience.  And of course, every hot chick in the gym decides at that time to come up the stairs in the other direction, so I have to do my damnest to appear like someone didn't completely remove both my femurs.

Even still, Monday has rolled around again, so I'll be hitting chest and shoulders for the second time and looking forward to it.  Should be interesting to see if I can handle bumping up the weight from last week.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: bhodi on November 07, 2011, 09:22:19 AM
Hey bhodi - I'll get straight to it.  That program sounds....weird.  It's extremely (overly) leg intensive, and think it is possible that your roommate's co-worker has a calf fetish of some kind.
Maybe I didn't explain clearly, but that's a single leg day workout last week, those aren't all the exercises I'm doing all week. The other days are similarly focused and are, as such, completely different. Squats are mixed in there on leg days, we didn't do squats that week. We do bench & overhead presses, rows, pullups on mondays. I don't have the full list because it changes up every week and I didn't ever get it written. The roommate's coworker is kind of a meathead so he's got all the bases covered. We're also doing about 70% barbell/dumbell so I'm also not just using isolation machines.

I completely agree on the cardio, but since I'm working with others the only option is to either show up late (which I do sometimes) or sit and wait for them to be done. I haven't decided how I want to handle it, I'm still in the adjustment phase, as I'm only 3 weeks in. I'm not even really keeping track of the weight right now, once I get a good baseline I'll start setting goals.


Go Cyrrex! The first week is the worst.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Sky on November 07, 2011, 10:45:34 AM
It's the walker.  I'm mid-40's and it's hell to stay lean.  I've been on about 1200 Cal the past two weeks and it's making me REALLY crabby.  
I'm kinda pissed because this summer my normal outdoor chores didn't drop my little winter paunch (41 this year). First time that happened excepting a couple years when I was drinking heavy in the 90s. Compounded by not hiking this past summer (which I'm pretty upset about, but pre-marital bliss is important) and an old injury leading my doc to tell me to lay off the benchwork I would do in the past when the summer work didn't quite accomplish the whole task. I'm up about 15 lbs over where I normally am this time of year!

I might have to actually pay attention to diet and exercise soon, dernit. That or chop more wood! :) I think the Fiskars axe is actually slowing down my fat loss, because I do so much less work with the superior tool, the crappy maul I used to use was like wrestling a mule.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on November 07, 2011, 11:37:25 AM
bleh, double post ftw.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on November 07, 2011, 11:51:10 AM
Hey bhodi - I'll get straight to it.  That program sounds....weird.  It's extremely (overly) leg intensive, and think it is possible that your roommate's co-worker has a calf fetish of some kind.
Maybe I didn't explain clearly, but that's a single leg day workout last week, those aren't all the exercises I'm doing all week. The other days are similarly focused and are, as such, completely different. Squats are mixed in there on leg days, we didn't do squats that week. We do bench & overhead presses, rows, pullups on mondays. I don't have the full list because it changes up every week and I didn't ever get it written. The roommate's coworker is kind of a meathead so he's got all the bases covered. We're also doing about 70% barbell/dumbell so I'm also not just using isolation machines.

I completely agree on the cardio, but since I'm working with others the only option is to either show up late (which I do sometimes) or sit and wait for them to be done. I haven't decided how I want to handle it, I'm still in the adjustment phase, as I'm only 3 weeks in. I'm not even really keeping track of the weight right now, once I get a good baseline I'll start setting goals.


Go Cyrrex! The first week is the worst.

Heh, I'm pretty experienced with lifting at this point, so my first week issues are not normal first week issues.  The pain is manageable.  The workout itself, however, is a motherfucker.  I quite literally want my mommy.  You know when you reach that last set on the bench where you just feel like you couldn't possibly do more?  Just do 5 more sets just like that, complete with mounting pain and weariness.  Then switch to shoulder presses and repeat.  Jesus H. Criminy.

Your clarification of the routine makes more sense.  Not total sense, mind you, just more. :grin:  Is that leg day or core day?

It still seems a bit scattershot to me, and if you are relatively new to strength training or bodybuilding (which are NOT the same thing) then it is probably too many exercises and not enough focus.  At least, if that single day routine is anything to judge by.  I'd be curious to hear whatever else meathead has you doing on other days, especially if you are trying to cram in a shitload of cardio on top of it.

What I said further above still holds true.  Best thing you can do early on is to find a good 5x5 program incorporating the above (and only the above) lifts.  Dead serious.  If you did one of those programs while your roomie and his co-worker did theirs, I guarantee that you would FLY past them.  If you are interested in giving it a go, just speak up...pretty easy to hook you up with a program tailored just for you.  You just need a power rack (safety bars), motivation and a willingness to eat.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on November 07, 2011, 11:56:17 AM
I have to agree with Cyrrex, that schedule seems overly complex and involved. Unless you are a body builder type you really don't need to be doing that many different types of isolation lift. Squats alone could replace the first five exercises on your leg day. More sets of fewer exercises if better I find, if nothing else than for the reasont hat you often need a set or two to get your mind set and your form down, so if you only do a set or two you probably aren't through your warm-up stage and at the point where you are pushing yourself for benefit.

an actual pullup-to-dip "mantle", something I have always wanted to be able to do. Fuck running, though. I feel like I gave it the college try. I still hate it.

do you mean a muscle-up (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2Sr6FFdcII)?

I can see the appeal of Crossfit, but the more I read about it the more I conclude that it is a high intensity exercise for ADD alpha-bro types designed by ADD alpha-bro types. There's a lot of good ideas in there, but there's also a lot of unstructured voodoo. I think they achieve most of their results through brute force and tears than by finesse; it doesn't seem like an efficient system.

Could you elaborate a bit on this - particularly about what you consider "unstructured voodoo" and why you don't think it's efficient?

Sorry for not replying to this sooner, I missed it somehow. My main issue with CrossFit is that it trys to take a jumble of ideas from many different fitness regimes, and throws them all together without any particular logic. The 'Workout of the Day' (WOD) is the prime example of this. For example today's WOD is:

Code:
Three rounds for time of:
30 Wallball shots, 20 pound ball (10.5 foot target)
75 pound Squat snatches, 30 reps (movement initiates with barbell below the knees)

The two prior to this are

Code:
For time:
Row 300 meters
135 pound Push press, 20 reps
Row 300 meters
135 pound Push press, 15 reps
Row 300 meters
135 pound Push press, 10 reps
Row 300 meters
135 pound Push press, 5 reps

and

Code:
For time:
25 GHD sit-ups
1 Muscle-up
20 GHD sit-ups
2 Muscle-ups
15 GHD sit-ups
3 Muscle-ups
10 GHD sit-ups
4 Muscle-ups
5 GHD sit-ups
5 Muscle-ups

If you follow this to the letter, you are doing intense exercise for sure, but it doesn't follow any particular direction other than towards ever-greater intensity. Other exercises which mix things like cleans and sprints, or chinups and boxjumps just all seem to me to be a bit arbitrary. Then there is the culture of doing everything to failure, and the Crossfit mascots "Pukey the Clown" and "Uncle Rhabdo" which do not emphasise health exercise in my mind.

My feeling isn't that CrossFit is ineffective, anyone doing the stuff CrossFit sugegsts, with the intensity encouraged will get fitter and stronger. However, I think you can achieve the same for less effort with more conventional training patterns; and if all you do is go to a crossfit gym and do snatches, squats and ring pull-ups you're not really doing CrossFit. Crossfit is the WODs, it is pushing yourself to breaking point, and those don't make tons of sense to me.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on November 07, 2011, 12:55:30 PM
Thanks for replying. Quick follow up though:

However, I think you can achieve the same for less effort with more conventional training patterns.

Such as? What to you would be a conventional training pattern that gives comparable results?

(I should clarify that I'm asking because I'm interested in different viewpoints.)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: bhodi on November 07, 2011, 12:57:05 PM
I have to agree with Cyrrex, that schedule seems overly complex and involved. Unless you are a body builder type you really don't need to be doing that many different types of isolation lift. Squats alone could replace the first five exercises on your leg day. More sets of fewer exercises if better I find, if nothing else than for the reasont hat you often need a set or two to get your mind set and your form down, so if you only do a set or two you probably aren't through your warm-up stage and at the point where you are pushing yourself for benefit.

do you mean a muscle-up (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2Sr6FFdcII)?

Yes, that thing. I want to do it. More than once. It's called mantling in climbing, I couldn't find the 'real' name for it. As for the routine, I'm pretty much tagging along with what they're doing. When I get more comfortable, I'll probably take your advice and branch out into my own. I personally want to do more squats and especially learn how to deadlift; they hate them and won't do anything but hug the smith rack. I've got I think 4 sessions with a "personal trainer" (har) so I'll probably use that to get form down on stuff like that for myself.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on November 08, 2011, 12:19:06 AM
You should get into your head that the smith rack is just another machine....because, well, it is just another machine.  Other than having a bar that you put individual weights on, it has otherwise nothing in common with free barbell exercises.  It doesn't recruit your muscle fibers in the same way at all.  Some people argue that they use them because they are safer, but the real truth is that they use them because, like all machines, it makes them feel stronger than the actually are...the exercises are easier and you can put more weight on!  Win!

Do go investigate the deads and the squats when you get more comfortable.  Those are the two best exercises you can do, period.  The reasons your friends hate them is because they are hard as shit, and the squats in particular are psychologically challenging as well - make sure you do those inside a rack with safety bars setup.  And don't forget to go low...thighs parallel to the ground is what you are aiming for.  9 out of 10 people squat wrong.  Look them up on youtube or something and make sure you understand the form.  Same for deadlifts, really.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: NowhereMan on November 08, 2011, 04:14:21 AM
Having spent about 3 months with work going crazy and not doing any exercise at all I'm getting back into running and lifting. I started out real low in the lifting but the numbers are starting to creep up again, I'm at least getting back to the point where I'm feeling somewhat worn out by the end of a session, my shoulder press numbers are pretty pathetic though. Doing my best to build them up a bit but they've always been very low. I'm not sure if it's technique or just me being wimpy about them but I find that set 3 or 22kg can leave me unable to finish, I literally can't get the bar up. Despite that I don't feel like it's muscle exhaustion or anything, it's like there's just one muscle group that's not pulling its weight. Like I said I suspect its primarily psychological but once I've done shedding a bit more fat I'm going to concentrate on eating a bit more and pushing myself harder with the lifts. The routine I'm following is one of the ones posted by SA goon Alfalfa that's a 4 day split 3 times a week. Lots of compound lifts and that sort of fun. My squat form still sucks although at least now I don't look like I'm performing good mornings, doing fairly light front squats at the moment in the hope that having the weight a bit forward will help stop me leaning too far forward for fear of falling over backwards.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on November 08, 2011, 04:36:03 AM
You may just have an arm, or a specific muscle, that is weaker than the others.  Lots of work on the barbell will even that out to a degree, but I can tell you from my own experience that it may never be completely fixed.  Despite my best efforts, my right shoulder is noticeably stronger than my left.  The only reason I can't reach my mythical goal of the 40kg (per hand) dumbbell presses is because of my stupid ass left shoulder...it won't even let my put up 38kg, despite the fact that the right hand has no problem with complying.

Also, barbell presses are a bit awkward anyway, because you have to move your head out of the way.  Barbell is better for the Olympic moves, IMO...you might be happier trying seated dumbbell presses.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Sky on November 08, 2011, 08:56:12 AM
Haven't thought about that, I should start doing some kindling splitting with my left hand to even out the single-arm part of my 'workout'  :grin:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on November 09, 2011, 04:53:42 AM
I spent last night sorting out my next 16 weeks worth of training but it'll probably be not so interesting to you guys as doesn't inolve much weights: three (occasionally four) run sessions a week, two cross-training sessions and one or two strength/conditioning sessions.

Typical week will be along the lines of:

Mon: Rest
Tue: X-training on bike (15-20 miles commute)
Wed: 7-8 mile run at tempo (normally with my club so will be on trails, at night)
Thu: X-training (tabata intervals on stationary bike/rowing machine) + strength/conditioning
Fri: fast interval sessions covering 3 - 4 miles in total (things like 12x400m, 3x1600m or 5x1km)
Sat: Rest (or occasional Long run for back-to-back training)
Sun: Long run (12-25 miles) at slightly slower than marathon pace.

Ideally I want to fit in a second str/con session but not sure when.

It's all building up to an ultra at the beginning of March (100 miles from London to Oxford along the Thames Path). I've got two 30 mile events in Jan & Feb (both on the day after a cross-country league match so good back-to-back sessions) so I'll be maxing out at 40-45 miles a week all told.

That's the plan. Sticking to it is another matter!  :grin:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on November 09, 2011, 05:17:18 AM
Of course we're interested.  Though I'll admit my interested is primarily centered on wondering why any human being would choose to run on a regular basis.  I mean, is someone chasing you?  I was good at it back in the day (US Army, and I always had run-happy sergeants) and could probably get pretty good at it again...but damn I hate it.  Good for you, though.

GVT update:  Did my Monday Chest and Shoulder session a couple of days ago.  Increased weights as intened (7.5 kg up on the bench, 2kg total on the shoulder presses).  Was a bitch, especially the bench presses.  It's amazing how relatively little weight can kick your ass.  Last few sets were a major struggle.  Got every rep up, but the last ones were not looking pretty.  Will probably up the bench another 2.5kg next week and add another 2kg to the shoulders.  I have a feelling that might get me to fail a lift or two.

Today is pull day.  Still not sure I have the right mix of exercises here.  Just not sure if I am hitting my lower back enough.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on November 09, 2011, 05:50:27 AM
Of course we're interested.  Though I'll admit my interested is primarily centered on wondering why any human being would choose to run on a regular basis.  I mean, is someone chasing you?  

Well, they're rarely chasing me because I'm normally at the back!  :awesome_for_real:

As for why I do it? Easy! This is where I run:

(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6189/6052992454_5279533c14.jpg)

(http://www.lakelandtrails.org/images/Keswick1001.jpg)


This is a gym:

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Q1V68XKHeFA/TblPkcbdGKI/AAAAAAAAAEI/6V_PAgWK98A/s1600/1.jpg)

 :why_so_serious:


(The first picture is one I took on a race at the end of July, at about 11am. The second picture I didn't take but was where I was at a few hours earlier at dawn. The race had started at 5pm the evening before. I pulled out later on though so didn't finish. Trying again next year. )


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on November 09, 2011, 06:39:17 AM
To be fair, the gym I used to work out (before I moved back to Denmark) was ginormous, and absolutely filled to the teeth with MILFs and extremely good looking college age girls.  Okay, some of them were probably high school age, but that didn't make me appreciate the scenery any less.   :pedobear:

My current gym...not so much.  Unless you are into hairy guys that are allergic to deodorant.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on November 09, 2011, 07:29:54 AM
I don't love running, which is why the thought of upping my mileage into marathon levels makes me twitch (20-25 miles/week is about my limit).  That said, I'd go insane if I weren't running - there's something amazingly therapeutic about going out for an hour jog and just clearing your head.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on November 09, 2011, 07:32:04 AM
Replace "running" with "going to the gym" and I feel the same way.  I'm addicted to it.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on November 09, 2011, 10:51:27 AM
I'm with Cyrrex, I can't stand running, although once I hit 30 I'll be forcing myself into it. I do love my gym though, but it's a different feeling. I'm cycling about 7-8 miles every day (commute and bits) so I feel I get enough of a cardio stretch as it is. I'm also playing American Football again, so that gives me another outlet.

DraconianOne, this is also a gym  :why_so_serious:

(http://i.imgur.com/bZry3.jpg) (http://imgur.com/bZry3)

Having spent about 3 months with work going crazy and not doing any exercise at all I'm getting back into running and lifting. I started out real low in the lifting but the numbers are starting to creep up again, I'm at least getting back to the point where I'm feeling somewhat worn out by the end of a session, my shoulder press numbers are pretty pathetic though. Doing my best to build them up a bit but they've always been very low. I'm not sure if it's technique or just me being wimpy about them but I find that set 3 or 22kg can leave me unable to finish, I literally can't get the bar up. Despite that I don't feel like it's muscle exhaustion or anything, it's like there's just one muscle group that's not pulling its weight. Like I said I suspect its primarily psychological but once I've done shedding a bit more fat I'm going to concentrate on eating a bit more and pushing myself harder with the lifts. The routine I'm following is one of the ones posted by SA goon Alfalfa that's a 4 day split 3 times a week. Lots of compound lifts and that sort of fun. My squat form still sucks although at least now I don't look like I'm performing good mornings, doing fairly light front squats at the moment in the hope that having the weight a bit forward will help stop me leaning too far forward for fear of falling over backwards.

Shoulder press is a tricky exercise, there are quite a lot of variables in it, moreso than most other exercises. I assume you are doing it with the bar, not dumbbells. Are you standing or sitting? If you sit do you have a backrest? In front of your head or behind? Are you doing a full range of motion or partial? Do you use leg drive or not?

At the very bottom end of a shoulder press you are invoking your traps more than pretty much any other muscle in your shoulder, and your shoulder joint and elbow are in a very disadvantaged position, so you may be limited by those more than your deltoids. If you are using the bar behind your head you should try to pull your shoulderblades together by tensing your rhomboids and then lean slightly forward.

You may want to try some tricep work too, since they can be a limiting factor in shoulder press.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on November 09, 2011, 11:03:46 AM
Sorry for double posting.

Thanks for replying. Quick follow up though:

However, I think you can achieve the same for less effort with more conventional training patterns.

Such as? What to you would be a conventional training pattern that gives comparable results?

(I should clarify that I'm asking because I'm interested in different viewpoints.)

It depends on your goals I guess, and what you define as CrossFit. If you go to a gym and simply do sets of squats, deadlifts, rows, chins, cleans, snatches, bench or whatever you are not really doing CrossFit in my mind, you are merely exercising in a CrossFit gym. To be doing CrossFit you need to be doing the WoDs, doing exercises to failure and using a mixture of unrelated exercises ostensibly for the purpose of tiring you out. Your goal is to be an all-rounder, and so you do a bit of everything. If you want to be strong I think doing something like 5/3/1, or even 5x5 will give you more consistent results, and there is no reason why you cannot do running or cycling or swimming at the same time, independently of your gym routines. I don't see the benefit of trying to do it all at once

Here is a list of WODs (http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/faq.html#WOD0)

Many of these seem dangerously unsafe to me. Exercises such as Snatches, Cleans even Squats should not be done in high-rep, high-tempo routines. These are exercises which are very form dependent, and encouraging people to do them at speed seems to me to be a recipe for injury.

Examples:

Grace - 135lb C+J x 30 (to time)
Isabel - 135lb Snatch x 30 (to time)
Amanda - 9,7,5 x MuscleUps and Snatches (to time).

There is no clear explanation for these exercises other than trying to push your body to a limit. And while that is fine at times, encouraging overtraining on a regular basis is detrimental, whereas a more measured system might not seem as dramatic, but would achieve the same benefits.

My caveat is that I haven't really done enough CrossFit to be entirely objective. I stuck with it (as best I could) for about 2 months a while back, and while I saw some improvements, I also lost out in other areas, and felt like a wreck after most trainings. Now I am sticking with a more paced regime and I am still seeing improvement, but I can go put in a day's work after a workout, or go out with friends.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on November 09, 2011, 12:55:19 PM
For the record, I agree with everything K9 is saying on Crossfit.  Is probably good as a general all-around fitness plan, but there are more efficient ways to accomplish those goals (either separately or at the same time).  And timing some of those lifts, including the Olympic ones?  That is a back injury waiting to happen.  You have to take your time with those lifts, because bad form could ruin you for years.

I feel like a broken record at this point, but people are terrible at goal setting when it comes to training.  If you have tangible goals, it is way easier to develop a plan to achieve it.  And you should also study the methods for what you are trying to accomplish, because that's how you learn important things, like how you are sabotaging your own progress.  And I guarantee that if you haven't studied the methods, there is a good chance you are sabotaging yourself somehow.  Seriously...goals, goals, goals.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on November 09, 2011, 03:13:48 PM
I have three simple rules when it comes to lifting:

1) High intensity, short workouts are best.

2) Focus on working large muscle groups rather than small.

3) You get zero growth without proper rest and nutrition.

I also hate running.  If I could find a replacement that gave me the same result to my aerobic capacity and core strength, I'd never run again.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on November 09, 2011, 04:19:51 PM
Skipping?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: NowhereMan on November 11, 2011, 08:23:13 AM
K9 thanks for the input on the sholder press. I've been doing them with a barbell military press style, I think it's partly psychological and partly form related. Although weak triceps could well be a possibility, it's something I'm working on :grin: Form is an issue with some of these things though, doing incline dumbell presses the other day and found I got to 22kg (I'll use big boy weights one of these days) and I just couldn't lift it on the right side at all, despite the fact that last session with them I was going to up the reps cause it wasn't too hard. I moved the weights down and found I couldn't then do the warm up weights I'd just done a set of either because I'd just loss the necessary tightness and couldn't seem to figure out how to get myself into the right position.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Minvaren on November 11, 2011, 12:07:20 PM
I also hate running.  If I could find a replacement that gave me the same result to my aerobic capacity and core strength, I'd never run again.

Dunno if it's a complete replacement for running, but during the few years I did Kundalini Yoga, I had a massive increase to core strength and a substantial increase to lung capacity and endurance.  YMMV, some restrictions apply, void where prohibited.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Selby on November 11, 2011, 09:51:23 PM
I also hate running.  If I could find a replacement that gave me the same result to my aerobic capacity and core strength, I'd never run again.
High intensity stationary bike riding is what I do (while playing video games naturally ;-) ).  I can't stand running due to boredom and my knees and back can't handle the impact it gives.  I feel much better and stronger after years on the bike than I did running 20 miles a week (I bike 13.5 miles a day 5-6 days a week).  I'm sure running would probably be a better thing to do, but my genetics pretty much guarantee that I can't do serious running (my dad has the same problems but worse due to age) so I do what I can to make up for it.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on November 11, 2011, 11:27:35 PM
High intensity stationary bike riding is what I do (while playing video games naturally ;-) ). 

I don't understand.  When I do a high intensity workout, I'm ready to puke... and sometimes do.  How can you do high intensity stationary bike AND play a video game?  I don't see the two as compatible at all.  Not to be critical, but I'd go so far as to argue that if you can concentrate on a video game, your intensity isn't nearly high enough. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Yoru on November 12, 2011, 07:10:02 AM
High intensity stationary bike riding is what I do (while playing video games naturally ;-) ). 

I don't understand.  When I do a high intensity workout, I'm ready to puke... and sometimes do.  How can you do high intensity stationary bike AND play a video game?  I don't see the two as compatible at all.  Not to be critical, but I'd go so far as to argue that if you can concentrate on a video game, your intensity isn't nearly high enough. 

This. I lift weights to get my mind off stuff. I can go to the gym with my head stewing in whatever the latest office bullshit is and as soon as I've finished the warmup, the bar starts coming down and it goes something like...

"Man I really wish I could fix--" (unrack) "FUCK FUCK FUCK THIS IS HEAVY OH GOD PUSH PUSH JESUS FOR THE LOVE OF FUCK GO UP OKAY IT'S MOVING OKAY OKAY PHEW" and then do that for 3-4 more reps and rack.

If you can think about anything that isn't directly related to your workout ("SHIT MY ARM IS SLIPPING BETTER SAY SPOT") while you're working out, dial it the fuck up.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Selby on November 12, 2011, 05:32:08 PM
I don't understand.  When I do a high intensity workout, I'm ready to puke... and sometimes do.  How can you do high intensity stationary bike AND play a video game?  I don't see the two as compatible at all.  Not to be critical, but I'd go so far as to argue that if you can concentrate on a video game, your intensity isn't nearly high enough. 
Brain dead grinding of monsters (think old-school RPG enter commands and watch outcome stuff).  We're not talking twitch games or anything that requires thought.  When I'm done I tend to want to puke or pass out too and my legs are killing me.  It wasn't done overnight, I worked up to where I am over the better part of 2-3 years.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on November 13, 2011, 08:12:22 AM
Brain dead grinding of monsters (think old-school RPG enter commands and watch outcome stuff).  We're not talking twitch games or anything that requires thought.  When I'm done I tend to want to puke or pass out too and my legs are killing me.  It wasn't done overnight, I worked up to where I am over the better part of 2-3 years.

I still don't understand how you can ride a bike, particularly a stationary bike, at high intensity without using your upper body.  That's like doing a time trial without using your arms.  You need your upper body to maintain speed and momentum.  If you're only using your legs, you're leaving half the workout on the table.  When I'd do spinning or riding my road bike on rollers, I'd get going to a point that I could barely hear the music in my iPod.  I can't imagine focusing on anything else but my cadence... and the pain. 

If it's working for you, that's all that matters.  I'm just saying that a trainer would scream at you if they thought you had the ability to do anything but cry while doing a high intensity workout. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Selby on November 13, 2011, 11:46:10 AM
If it's working for you, that's all that matters.  I'm just saying that a trainer would scream at you if they thought you had the ability to do anything but cry while doing a high intensity workout. 
It works for me.  Like I said, bad back extremely limits the upper body work I can do.  I know a trainer would think I'm being lazy, but that's their job ;-)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on November 13, 2011, 12:07:29 PM
I didn't mean to be an asshole, Selby.  If you have back problems, then you're doing the best that you can.  Just being on the bike is better than most people would do in your situation. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Selby on November 13, 2011, 12:48:52 PM
Just being on the bike is better than most people would do in your situation. 
Tell me about it!  My doctor said I was going to be heading to health problems due to my desk job and weight issues combined with medication I take making it worse.  So I got a stationary bike and ride it intensely (high resistance) for 5-6 days a week for an hour and have been doing that for 4-5 years now.  My doctor practically doesn't ask any weight, etc questions because it's now obvious I'm taking care of it.  Down to 195 from 295 and I have so much energy it's not even funny!


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Jimbo on November 13, 2011, 08:41:23 PM
I do it too, I get the exercise bike out and play xbox 360, although some games I spaz and try and pedal faster to make my character run faster (CoD MW), but most of the RPG's I could ride and get a sweat and do some tasks that they want done.  I've read of someone that took a recumbent bicycle, put a small table and keyboard, and played WoW from 0-80 and lost a ton of weight.  I can't stand the recumbent though, it doesn't feel right, too many years in the upright makes it hard to do it the other way.  They have made some games where how fast you peddle the bike is how fast your character will go, another way is it helps power the game or controls the on off, like it will pause or shut down if you aren't peddling fast enough.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: NowhereMan on November 14, 2011, 02:32:52 PM
I can't imagine doing it with a high intensity workout either but I could easily see someone cycling just hard enough to work up a sweat and being able to play WoW and losing a tonne of weight due to throwing an extra hour or two of cardio into their daily routines. Now they probably could be doing far better for themselves and losing that weight far more efficiently but frankly considering the state of most people that spend a huge amount of time on WoW (or television or almost anything nowadays) fuck that, they're doing good. I think there's definitely a need to push oneself to improve in terms of lifting or cardio but really, if you're consistently doing some exercise everyday and it's working for you you're doing better than 80% of the western world.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: ffc on November 27, 2011, 12:34:33 AM
Anybody try what I guess is called suspension weight training for strengthening core and/or building muscle?  

Over Thanksgiving I got to try out a TRX unit (pretty sure it's this one (http://www.amazon.com/TRX-Suspension-Training-Pro-Pack/dp/B002YIA6SM)) which is just a set of tie downs with a handle attached to each end. But the TRX tie downs must be made from unicorn blood and fairy tears to justify its price.

My current core exercises are just planks and mountain climbers so I like this suspension weight idea because every exercise seemed to engage my core (basic pushups with my arms in the handles had my arms shaking like crazy, and if my feet were in the handles then my middle got sore) but at the same time I felt like using it for other exercises like curls or tricep pushdowns turns it into all-or-nothing where I was either using too much or too little of my body weight with no sweet spot even after fiddling with height adjustments.  I'll readily accept my problem is user error though.  

The person who owned the unit swore it could replace all dumbbells while strengthening my core in fewer exercises.  This same person could do a crazy looking iron cross move, pulling up from a near horizontal position up to vertical, so something must be working.  Any thoughts before I throw together a set of my own?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Jimbo on November 27, 2011, 07:21:59 AM
Skyrim has lots of dead time so being on an exercise bike or even maybe a stair type would work, especially on RPG's for the Xbox 360, then again I'm good at multi tasking, straight up computer gaming seems so one sided, it makes me want to do a "one for one" trade off of exercise for computer gaming.



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on November 27, 2011, 08:22:18 AM
Anybody try what I guess is called suspension weight training for strengthening core and/or building muscle?  

Over Thanksgiving I got to try out a TRX unit (pretty sure it's this one (http://www.amazon.com/TRX-Suspension-Training-Pro-Pack/dp/B002YIA6SM)) which is just a set of tie downs with a handle attached to each end. But the TRX tie downs must be made from unicorn blood and fairy tears to justify its price.

My current core exercises are just planks and mountain climbers so I like this suspension weight idea because every exercise seemed to engage my core (basic pushups with my arms in the handles had my arms shaking like crazy, and if my feet were in the handles then my middle got sore) but at the same time I felt like using it for other exercises like curls or tricep pushdowns turns it into all-or-nothing where I was either using too much or too little of my body weight with no sweet spot even after fiddling with height adjustments.  I'll readily accept my problem is user error though.  

The person who owned the unit swore it could replace all dumbbells while strengthening my core in fewer exercises.  This same person could do a crazy looking iron cross move, pulling up from a near horizontal position up to vertical, so something must be working.  Any thoughts before I throw together a set of my own?

I play around a little bit with the TRX stuff - it definitely hits you differently, because you're having to do a lot of support and stability, especially in the core.   Getting the body weight/angle stuff for some of the exercises can be a complete pain in the ass.

My general feeling is that I'm glad my local gym has a set, so I can mix it into my exercise rotation, but I wouldn't rush out and buy one. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on November 27, 2011, 11:37:36 AM
I'd probably save yourself $160 and just get some gymnastic rings. (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pellor-Gymnastic-Rings-Exercise-Crossfit/dp/B005D67TP0/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1322416041&sr=8-4) Lets you get the same effect pretty much I think?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on November 28, 2011, 12:25:41 AM
Hell, why not just buy a pommel horse?  Pretty sure it works arms, upper body and core!  And let's be honest, it looks fairly bad-ass.

Here's my thoughts on iron cross guy:  He was probably already hella strong in terms of strength-to-weight ratio.  These doohickeys didn't get him there, though maybe they help maintain it.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on November 29, 2011, 08:23:46 AM
Talking of programs and the like - anyone done Stronglifts 5x5? http://stronglifts.com/stronglifts-5x5-beginner-strength-training-program/ 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on November 30, 2011, 01:16:06 AM
I have done Madcow's variant of the 5x5, which works similarly to Stronglifts...minus the hyperbole and irritating sales pitch.  Jesus Christ, that link makes me want to stab my own face  :awesome_for_real:

The bullshit:  5x5s are NOT the only way to build muscle, and it is NOT all about how heavy you lift....unless you are a power lifter.  Body building uses completely different, but valid concepts.  It is fair enough to say that a good body building program would benefit using a 5x5 as a foundational program, but they practically state that the 5x5 power lifting program is the only way to go.  That's just wrong.  They also imply that muscle confusion is not an important factor in training, and that, too, is misleading.  All training programs, including this one, will get you to a plateau...and you need to change things up if you ever want any hope of breaking through that.

That truth:  All the hyperbole and bullshit aside, 5x5s are REALLY good way to build strength and put on mass, particularly if you're a relative beginner.  Eat like a monster and use their spreadsheets to ensure constant progression, and you will achieve results.  I will be going back to a 5x5 as soon as I am done with Nebu's God-Forsaken horrible German Volume Training program (seriously, fuck Germans*).  I like the Madcow variant better, mostly because it adds in more deadlifts, and it also had me throw in pull-ups for better lat work.  It is critical that you make sure you are either working out with a spotter or are using a power rack with safety pins.  This is a whole different kind of muscle failure...where before you were worried about looking like a dork because you couldn't quite get that last rep of 135 up, with this program the muscle failure might lead to a crushed windpipe or a serious back injury.  Don't fuck around with it....spotter or rack.  If you don't have these things, you will not be able to follow the plan.

*The only reason I am dissing the GVT program is because it is so goddamn hard.  On body, mind and ego.  I have managed to increase weight every week for every lift, but holy shit am I tired.  I just want it to end.  I am in week number 5 now, and the prospect of doing pull day today is really wearing on my mind.  Just the thought of doing 95kg pull downs a hundred times makes me want to curl up into a ball and cry like a bitch.  And then to follow that up with Pendlays and seated rows....I may have to quit the program today.  I mean, I've done the minimum four weeks, so I am entitled, right?  RIGHT?  I am trying to convince myself that I have hyperextended my knee a little (and I may actually have) so that there is no way that I can do squats on Friday, so I might as well stop now.  :grin:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on November 30, 2011, 01:00:16 PM
I will be going back to a 5x5 as soon as I am done with Nebu's God-Forsaken horrible German Volume Training program (seriously, fuck Germans*). 

I hate GVT as well.  I totally do.  The sad truth is that it works.  Not only does it work, it works when other routines don't.  That's the other reason that I hate it so.

My advice: Stick to it for 6 weeks if you can.  After that, it's tough to get significant gains anyway. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on November 30, 2011, 02:14:38 PM
I did manage to make it through today (okay, I crapped out an only did five sets of the seated rows...but those were always additional anyway).  But I think after Friday (squat day), that'll be it for this time around.  That will be five weeks.  I've been putting five to ten pounds on each exercise every week, and I don't honestly think I can for one more week.  It just feels like time to stop and take a break.  I can tell that my nervous system is in tatters and needs to recover.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on January 03, 2012, 06:39:47 AM
Arise!  It is 2012 now, so no better time to revive what in my opinion is one of the more important threads we have around here.

As mentioned in the New Years thread, I need to figure out my new short term goals for fitness.  Since I finished the five week hell that was German Volume Training (big middle finger to Nebu for introducing us to that one  :awesome_for_real:), I've gone back to a traditional 5x5 program using only the basic compound lifts.  I don't think I will do this for long, because I doubt I will get benefit for long.  If the GVT did anything for me, it sure as shit put on mass (some muscle, some fat)...I think I gained about 12 pounds over the 5 weeks.  I think it may provide a nice foundation for some increases on the heavy lifts, but I doubt it will last too long.  Also, after 1.5 years of suffering through a fairly major bulging/herniated disc, it appears that that is mostly behind me know - which is a relief you cannot imagine unless you've gone through it yourself.  Getting back into good squatting and deadlifting form.  The weights are not huge at this point, but I am concentrating on perfect form and steady progress.

But still, not sure where I am going next.  I think I need to continue the 5x5 to see how far it can go, without gaining any additional weight, maybe even lose a few pounds.  Then I definitely need to go on a cut to rid myself of some of the extra poundage around the middle.  Kind of feel like I am treading water at the moment.  Probably need to start mixing more cardio into my week if nothing else.  I've done practically nothing for the last three months.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Yoru on January 03, 2012, 06:49:13 AM
I'm still doing my basic 5x5 program. I got a compliment from one of my gym's trainers last night when doing 50kg barbell overhead presses, as I weigh about 65kg.

My current goal is to be able to do one-handed pull-ups, unassisted. I'm using an assist machine to do one-handed pull-ups right now, working each arm for up to 5 reps and doing 3-5 sets (depending on exhaustion). I'm down to about 12kg of assist right now, having started around 20kg three months ago. Using the additional strength, I've managed to push from a V4 to a V5 average/V6 max bouldering rating.

The hard part is gaining strength without significantly gaining mass, which is why I've been avoiding any of the serious mass-building programs.

I'm also moving to a warmer country in a few months; looking forward to pushing my outdoor rating from 5.10 to 5.11 and starting to try some low-V deep-water solos.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on January 03, 2012, 07:05:32 AM
Can I assume you are talking about rock climbing?  I don't recognize all that jargon. 

One major disadvantage of putting on weight and sticking to programs for several months that neglect them is that I am now discovering that I all of a sudden cannot do pullups worth a shit.  I hate pullups with a fiery passion to begin with (which is odd considering I love lat pulldowns and rows in any form  :headscratch:), but they are important fundamental movements.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Yoru on January 03, 2012, 09:56:15 AM
Can I assume you are talking about rock climbing?  I don't recognize all that jargon. 

Indeed. Roped routes are (in the US) rated on the Yosemite system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yosemite_Decimal_System), and non-roped routes are rated on the Hueco/Vermin scale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_%28bouldering%29). When climbing, your outdoor grades are usually lower than indoor grades as there's more protection from falls available in indoor gyms compared to real rock formations, letting you push yourself farther with a lower risk of serious injury.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 03, 2012, 11:09:47 AM
The hard part is gaining strength without significantly gaining mass, which is why I've been avoiding any of the serious mass-building programs.

Yes...

I've cut 30 lbs since September (mostly muscle mass) and have lost so much strength that it's almost embarrassing.  I used to be able to decline 225 lbs x 10 with relative ease and now find it difficult to manage 185.  On the plus side, pullups and dips have gotten much easier.  My knees also thank me for dropping the weight.  All of my knee issues have vanished.

I've become a BIG fan of naturals and my workout is now primarily body weight exercises (or with a hanging weight belt for added resistance) with only adding the weight room as a supplement.  As a man in my mid 40's, I'm enjoying my new build much more.  I'm leaner with less bulk and have a much more 'practical' build.  I'm even entertaining the idea of competing in triathalons again.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: luckton on January 04, 2012, 07:12:38 PM
As part of that 'New Year's Resolu-thinga ma-bob", the wife and I are trying the 17-day diet again, and I started doing the Lifehacker workout.

Wish me luck  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on January 04, 2012, 09:04:18 PM
As part of that 'New Year's Resolu-thinga ma-bob", the wife and I are trying the 17-day diet again, and I started doing the Lifehacker workout.

Wish me luck  :why_so_serious:

Get after it and have fun.   Just remember - if you don't like the workout, change it up and don't be afraid to do other things. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: bhodi on January 04, 2012, 09:09:19 PM
Whereas I am the complete opposite. I can't even get into my gym's parking lot this week. Oh well. I guess I needed a week off anyway?

I'm steadily heading towards a generic level of fitness, 1:1 press and 1.5:1 squat but I've only been going for a few months. I expect to get there in the spring. Yoru makes me feel weak, though. I also want to be able to do a one armed pullup but I'm definitely not as close. Also, I want to be able to campus mantel which I guess in the gym world is called a muscle-up. Plus, I also want to be able to do a one armed pullup. I suspect all these goals have to do with climbing.

I do find it interesting that you're pushing V7+ and can't do a 5.11, as I'm definitely no more than a V5 and I can climb (won't lead) any 5.10 up to a crimpy 5.11a or so. Quite odd since we have the same body type.

None of us will ever touch Nebu, though :)


I really, really need to get my goddamned eating under control. I just tend to skip dinner because I'm not hungry, don't want to go out and lose my parking spot, and have only a remedial level of cooking skill.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on January 05, 2012, 12:42:24 AM
I managed a 150kg (330lb) deadlift yesterday and I still seem to have all my discs in place, which is good news for my recovering back.  I am tempted to put on some kind of hand protection and try a little more, because my grip strength is failing at this weight....but I probably shouldn't push my luck.

I wonder how skinny I would have to get before I could even think about attempting a one armed pullup.  I think I would snap a tendon if I tried it now.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Yoru on January 05, 2012, 08:59:15 AM
I do find it interesting that you're pushing V7+ and can't do a 5.11, as I'm definitely no more than a V5 and I can climb (won't lead) any 5.10 up to a crimpy 5.11a or so. Quite odd since we have the same body type.

None of us will ever touch Nebu, though :)

Back when I was top-roping and leading regularly, I managed a 5.12a a few times, but that's three years in the past. It's a conditioning and mental block, as the gyms up here don't have anything aside from bouldering. As a result, my endurance is total shit and I'm not used to being up that high any more.

Last time I was in the US, I managed a 5.11b without much technical trouble, but had to take two rests, which is fucking embarassing. My outdoor rating is pitiful because there's like two months of outdoor-friendly weather in Iceland. Now that I'm moving to Malta, that gets completely flipped on its head. Why stay indoors when it's 20C and sunny all the time? :grin:

I managed a 150kg (330lb) deadlift yesterday and I still seem to have all my discs in place, which is good news for my recovering back.  I am tempted to put on some kind of hand protection and try a little more, because my grip strength is failing at this weight....but I probably shouldn't push my luck.

Nice! I keep trying to push my deadlift, but I keep scraping the shit out of my shins inadvertently while lifting. So far the only thing I've been able to do to control that is to drop 5-10kg off the bar and do a much slower lift, being very conscious of the bar's distance from my shins. Thing is, I don't feel the burn so much at those weights, even at 5 reps, so I know I should be going heavier... Any ideas?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Merusk on January 05, 2012, 09:07:35 AM
Whereas I am the complete opposite. I can't even get into my gym's parking lot this week. Oh well. I guess I needed a week off anyway?

Just go earlier.  I go in at ~5am before heading to the office and have seen a marginal uptick in people.  Maybe 3-4 new faces.  My wife reports that when she goes in later in the morning the parking lot is nearly full.   After work?  Forget it, you're parking in the office building across the street.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 05, 2012, 09:17:11 AM
Men's health had an article on the 10 things a fit man should be able to do.  I thought I'd post it here for discussion.

Quote
Bench 1.5 Times Your Body Weight
Run 1.5 Miles in 10 Minutes
Touch the Rim
Leg-Press 2.25 Times Your Weight
Swim 700 Yards in 12 Minutes
Do 40 Pushups
Measure Up
Run 300 Yards Sub 1 Minute
Touch Your Toes
Toss a Basketball 75 Feet Kneeling
   

The funny thing... the only one that I can't do is "touch my toes".  The bench may be tough without a spotter, but I think I could manage 240 once with some screaming.  For those wondering about "measure up", it's simply the circumference of your waist divided by the circumference of your hips. 

The Scorecard:
0.92 or higher: Your wife and kids are going to miss you
0.82 to 0.91: Ordinary
0.81 or less: Flat and happy

None of us will ever touch Nebu, though :)

I bet many of you are in better shape than I am.  I'm just content to be in my mid 40's with a body most 25 year olds would be happy to have.  Next week I start my killer workout.  It's going to be 10 weeks of hell, but I think I'll like the results.  I'll provide some details later.





Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Merusk on January 05, 2012, 01:34:11 PM
Hm.. I can do most of those except the weights and measure-up.  12min for 700 yards (25.66 laps in a 25m pool) is  :why_so_serious: for most folks, though.  Even a lot of fit people can't swim for shit.

Some of that also seems way different than "Fit."  At my lightest and best-shape ever I weighed 175#.  That's leg-pressing 438# and is crazy.  Or are they saying "Just put it up and hold it for an x count?"


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on January 05, 2012, 09:01:34 PM
I'll say right now, at 5'6" touching the rim ain't going to fucking happen in my lifetime.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on January 06, 2012, 12:25:10 AM
Yeah, I would say that list is a little strange.  A lot strange, maybe.  Depends tons on your body type and what you train.

I could probably get to a certain weight/strength combination that lets me bench 1.5...but to be honest, there are a lot of relatively fit guys at the gym, and it is only a rare few that can bench 1.5 of their body weight.  Most articles I have ever heard said that 1.0 body weight is fit.  1.5 is where you are getting into advanced lifting.  And yeah, I can probably do 2.25 on the leg press, but that is simply insane for most people.

I almost never run, so 1.5 in 10 minutes is out, though I could probably train up to it fairly quickly.  300 in less than a minute...probably.

The only way I am going to ever swim 700 yards in any amount of time is if the water is 700 yards deep and you tied a cement block to me.

I can touch my toes like a motherfucker...but so what?  Anybody can take about 30 minutes out of their lives and work up to that if they really want to.

I am 5'8" and haven't touched the rim since my early 20s.  I'll still ruin most of you on the court, though.  So again, so what?  As far as tossing the ball 75 feet kneeling?  I imagine that has more to do with the length of your limbs.

Interesting discussion, though.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on January 06, 2012, 04:11:51 AM
I hate lists like that because they're so arbitrary and flippant. 1.5 times my weight is 150kg and I don't even want to be able to bench that much because I want to be able to run 1.5 miles in 10 minutes (6:40 a mile) - something that I probably can do now but I couldn't even do when I was doing sub 60 sec 400m Hurdles.  300 yds in under a minute? Possibly - I can comfortably run 400m (440yd) in 1:20 consistently for 12 reps so a one off sprint? Yeah, why not.

Touching the rim? Is that a euphemism? :why_so_serious:

Anyway, my main New Year goal is to complete the 100 mile ultra in July that I DNF'd last year.  

Other running goals (which would be a bonus):
- to break 20 mins for a 5k
- to beat my road half-marathon best (although most of the local road races I'd try this in are on the same day as trail races I'd prefer to do).
- to run 100k in 10.5 hours (for a race qualification - might shift to next year depending on schedule)
- to run a marathon on road.
- to do at least 1 race per month.

General fitness goals
- to train more consistently and regularly (shouldn't be hard as up until December, it was going okay)
- to complete my Personal Training qualification (first exam shortly after moving house!)
- to drop my weight properly so I can move faster. Which probably means cutting back quite severely on beer and cheese.

And bacon sandwiches.  :oh_i_see:

EDIT: Just remembered that I've also joined a Fitocracy group with a challenge of running 1200 miles or more this year. :uhrr:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Merusk on January 06, 2012, 06:25:26 AM
I workout with 320#-340# on the leg press.  I don't feel like working up to more because my legs are already rather large.  I tried pressing "only" 400# today and nearly shat myself. 

I also nearly hurt myself trying /near/ my body weight (230) on the machine press.  Fuck trying more than that.  (Though to be honest I only work with about 150# max on it.  I lack upper body strength and always have.)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on January 06, 2012, 07:12:07 AM
I workout with 320#-340# on the leg press.  I don't feel like working up to more because my legs are already rather large.  I tried pressing "only" 400# today and nearly shat myself. 

I also nearly hurt myself trying /near/ my body weight (230) on the machine press.  Fuck trying more than that.  (Though to be honest I only work with about 150# max on it.  I lack upper body strength and always have.)

And to make it even worse, you can be assured that the list Nebu posted for the bench press was for a free weight barbell bench press, which at 230 would be waaaaaaay harder.  Girly man  :why_so_serious:

The more I think about it, the more the whole 1.5 body weight for the bench bothers me.  I would wager a hundred bucks that that represents less than 2% of the male population.  Probably less than 1%.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 06, 2012, 09:45:14 AM
I'd bet that being able to do 40 push ups puts you in the top 2% in the US.  Most people are in terrible shape. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Merusk on January 06, 2012, 09:50:43 AM
You're probably right and that saddens me because I'm no paragon myself.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 06, 2012, 10:06:50 AM
I have a colleague that comes to me often about diet and workout advice.  He really illuminated the issue for me, especially since he's a very well-educated man.  He asked me what I ate in a day.  When I told him, he looked at me like I was crazy and said "is that is?"  I don't think people realize what a healthy amount of food is per day.  Between that and the complete lack of exercise most people get (I see students waiting 5 mins to take an elevator up 1 floor), our society is in sad condition. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: 01101010 on January 06, 2012, 10:46:24 AM
I workout with 320#-340# on the leg press.  I don't feel like working up to more because my legs are already rather large.  I tried pressing "only" 400# today and nearly shat myself. 

I also nearly hurt myself trying /near/ my body weight (230) on the machine press.  Fuck trying more than that.  (Though to be honest I only work with about 150# max on it.  I lack upper body strength and always have.)

I am stricken with the skinny leg syndrome. No matter my focus, I can not ever put mass on my legs, even when I was on steroids. I could squat a fair amount for my body weight (at the time), same with presses and lunges... strong, but thin. I could cut them without issue, but never could gain mass... then again, I can't gain large amounts of mass anywhere really.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 06, 2012, 12:57:07 PM
I am stricken with the skinny leg syndrome. No matter my focus, I can not ever put mass on my legs, even when I was on steroids. I could squat a fair amount for my body weight (at the time), same with presses and lunges... strong, but thin. I could cut them without issue, but never could gain mass... then again, I can't gain large amounts of mass anywhere really.

Two things will fix this.  

1) Start a high intensity, low rep training program.

2) Eat 12k quality Calories a day.

I guarantee you'll gain mass.  The hard part is cutting the 70% fat that you will also put on 6 months from now.  


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: 01101010 on January 06, 2012, 01:05:51 PM
I am stricken with the skinny leg syndrome. No matter my focus, I can not ever put mass on my legs, even when I was on steroids. I could squat a fair amount for my body weight (at the time), same with presses and lunges... strong, but thin. I could cut them without issue, but never could gain mass... then again, I can't gain large amounts of mass anywhere really.

Two things will fix this.  

1) Start a high intensity, low rep training program.

2) Eat 12k quality Calories a day.

I guarantee you'll gain mass.  The hard part is cutting the 70% fat that you will also put on 6 months from now.  

Did that in college with a dietitian from the hospital - I gained 10 lbs over 1year and 1 month. After I quit force feeding myself, which had a nasty effect of giving me the shits pretty frequently, I dropped 12 lbs in 4 months even returning to normal consumption and continuing to work out.  My body just will not allow intake of that amount of calories, no matter if it is just a lot of real food or supplement shakes or whatever.

And yes, I was doing 5 set of 3-5 reps of weight I had no business putting on the machines. Even my spotter remarked I should not be able to hit 3 reps and struggled with 4 and 5 if I could get there.

Of course this was at a point in my life where I wanted to fill in the spots on my frame that were lacking. After struggling for 7 years with it, I gave up on the mass thing. Maybe when I hit the point where my metabolism slows down, I will be able to have a somewhat representable weight. Of course, in my late 30s now and really don't care so much and have no need to anymore.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on January 07, 2012, 04:24:37 PM
I'd bet that being able to do 40 push ups puts you in the top 2% in the US.  Most people are in terrible shape. 

Probably, but high volumes of pushups are a bit funky in my experience. I never do pushups as an exercise, but I can usually do 20-25 fresh as a baseline when I do feel inclined to do them. If I gave myself a week or so of doing pushups I could probably get up to 40 in one set, but as soon as I stop I'll drop back to 20-25. Stamina for these type of exercises seems to stick so poorly in my experience.

I also know I can't do 1.5x bodyweight bench, but I can do bodyweight+50% dips (using a belt) for 5, so I guess I'm not too heartbroken.

I think the goal for this year is just to get an extra gym session in a week. 2011 was a mess for various reasons and I dropped to only twice-a-week gym and I miss it. In all other regards I'm pretty happy with where I am at, doing a mix of olympic lifting and bodyweight exercises for the most part (plus assistance work for the Oly lifts like OH squats and push press). It's a routine which is giving me slow but steady and manageable progress, and I am not so desperate for size or strength that I'm looking to change. Perhaps some more high-intensity cardio, but I'll just have to see how things pan out.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on January 07, 2012, 06:37:43 PM
This entire goal thing has always driven me batty.   Because I have a hell of a time trying to figure out what is or isn't a good realistic goal.   I didn't even really do sports in high school, so it's not like I have any type of real baseline to go from.   Looking at the general men's health mags, and they assume you're 20-something and do nothing but lift.  Look at a runner's mag, and they all think you want to do nothing more than run 50+ miles a week and do marathons.    So I'm sorta stuck with having to guess at goals that are little better than get my waist/hip ratio under 9.0, keep knocking times off my PR's, and see progress in lifts.   

All of which is a convoluted and poorly phrased way of asking if people have any recommendations as to what to aim for or how they go about setting goals.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on January 07, 2012, 08:33:42 PM
In general I guess the first step is to have in mind what you want out of exercise in general; do you want to look huge, ripped, huge and ripped, or do you want to be strong, or do you want to foster the health of your heart, or improve your flexibility, or have better stamina, or run a marathon. 'A bit of everything' is also a fair result, and true for most people. Working that out should help you decide what sort of exercise you should be attempting. Enjoyment is also a factor. Once you have that down, goal setting (as I do it) falls into one of two categories: 'i want to do x' and I want to do y at this level'. So personally, goals of the latter type include things like holding a handstand, learning to muscle up, learning to do a full snatch. These are techniques or abilities I cannot yet do, but once mastered will enable to to follow the second type of goal, the 'doing y better' goal. In this case I just look at where I am at, and then aim to be % better after a certain time, so maybe 15 percent better after six months. If you are lifting this translates easily into weights. So for me, the 100kg push press, the 125lg bench, the 70kg snatch and the 80kg clean and jerk are goals I have. If you were more into running/cycling/swimming it might be a matter of running longer distances, or the same distance in less time.

I find having a mix of the two types of goals helps, especially with gym-based routine. Setting new techniques or skills as goals gives you something novel to work towards. Sometimes you may not be able to directly do this, so if you wanted to learn muscles ups say, but cannot do a chin up, doing an unassisted chinup would be a prior goal. I know that once I have muscleups I will start working on front lever progressions, and so the goals continue.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 07, 2012, 09:47:37 PM
Goals: I tend to think of something, usually a physical activity, and setting my goal according to that.  If it's a 5k race, I'll train to be a better runner.  If it's a sport, I'll train to be better at that sport.  As I've gotten older, it's more about maintaining my body and a general level of fitness.   

Hope that helps.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on January 08, 2012, 07:42:56 AM
Goals: I tend to think of something, usually a physical activity, and setting my goal according to that.  If it's a 5k race, I'll train to be a better runner.  If it's a sport, I'll train to be better at that sport.  As I've gotten older, it's more about maintaining my body and a general level of fitness.   

Hope that helps.

I think so.  The general impression I'm getting from people is stop worrying about arbitrary external benchmarks, and accept that progress on whatever thing I'm working on at the time is a worthwhile goal in and of itself.

So knocking off 5 minutes from my time between two five mile races (2010 v 2011) is a damn good thing and what matters, not exactly what those two times were. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 08, 2012, 03:37:43 PM
You're getting good advice.  My absolute worst habit is comparing myself to others at the gym.  I've decided to think about the activities that I enjoy most and build my physique to better enjoy them.  I was hovering around 220 lbs for the last few years and found that I was carrying too much extra bulk for the things that I enjoy (running, biking, kayaking, skiing, golf, etc.).  Since I've dropped to around 190 lbs, my body is MUCH happier with me and my joints don't show my battlescars so much. 

Just find a place where you feel like your body is a fine-tuned machine.  It gives you such an energy boost that the rest of your life will show great benefit.  That includes your sex life!


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: bhodi on January 10, 2012, 08:15:09 PM
Trip report! Max strength test, 1 rep, two month anniversary for new weight benchmark/adjustment. I took the previous week off before doing this so it's pretty much as good as it gets. I'll use these numbers to adjust my workout weight to 2-3 sets of various similar exercises, 12 reps @ 80%.

FTR, I'm 5'8, 135lb.
Bench Press    135
Lat Pulldown   144
Cable Rows     132
Shoulder Press 135
Preacher Curls  70
Triceps Press   90
Leg Press      450

I've got the gym routine pretty down, so this next two months I'm focusing more on nutrition and cutting down the eating out / eating like crap. Less chick-fil-a and chicken parm and more grilled fish and veggies. Also, no more skipping meals because I am lazy/tired.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on January 10, 2012, 08:39:04 PM
Trip report! Max strength test, 1 rep, two month anniversary for new weight benchmark/adjustment. I took the previous week off before doing this so it's pretty much as good as it gets. I'll use these numbers to adjust my workout weight to 2-3 sets of various similar exercises, 12 reps @ 80%.

FTR, I'm 5'8, 135lb.
Bench Press    135
Lat Pulldown   144
Cable Rows     132
Shoulder Press 135
Preacher Curls  70
Triceps Press   90
Leg Press      450

I've got the gym routine pretty down, so this next two months I'm focusing more on nutrition and cutting down the eating out / eating like crap. Less chick-fil-a and chicken parm and more grilled fish and veggies. Also, no more skipping meals because I am lazy/tired.

Good christ man, you're a twig.  When you were saying you were worried about eating shit, I figured you were getting into the 200+ range.  Still, if you're concerned about your diet, I'd say definitely look into adding some clean protein into your general diet and non-shit carbs on weight days.  Maybe some wholesome fat sources such as olive oil and avacado as well.

The weights you're shoving around are pretty respectable.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Selby on January 10, 2012, 10:48:23 PM
It gives you such an energy boost that the rest of your life will show great benefit.  That includes your sex life!
I will second this.  When I was fat and lazy, life sucked.  Even now with the aches and pains from high intensity cardio 5-6 days a week, I still feel better than I've felt since probably junior high school.  Energy to do whatever I want and some depressive issues even became less of an issue.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on January 11, 2012, 12:19:18 AM
Trip report! Max strength test, 1 rep, two month anniversary for new weight benchmark/adjustment. I took the previous week off before doing this so it's pretty much as good as it gets. I'll use these numbers to adjust my workout weight to 2-3 sets of various similar exercises, 12 reps @ 80%.

FTR, I'm 5'8, 135lb.
Bench Press    135
Lat Pulldown   144
Cable Rows     132
Shoulder Press 135
Preacher Curls  70
Triceps Press   90
Leg Press      450

I've got the gym routine pretty down, so this next two months I'm focusing more on nutrition and cutting down the eating out / eating like crap. Less chick-fil-a and chicken parm and more grilled fish and veggies. Also, no more skipping meals because I am lazy/tired.

Good on you.  Quick piece of advice, if I may:  Even if you have to start light, replace those leg presses with barbell squats (start light so that you can go deeeeep).  If you've never seriously done them, you will quickly realize that squats utilize your legs in a way that leg presses don't come close to duplicating.  It is also a very powerful core exercise.  The reason that you don't see people doing them at the gym is NOT because they aren't effective...it's because they are hard, and psychologically challenging.  I.e. people are scared of them.  In truth, squats are probably the single most effective exercise you can do.

Deadlifts are worthy of consideration as well.  Right up there with squats as being one of the most effective exercises.



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on January 11, 2012, 03:03:07 AM
Trip report! Max strength test, 1 rep, two month anniversary for new weight benchmark/adjustment. I took the previous week off before doing this so it's pretty much as good as it gets. I'll use these numbers to adjust my workout weight to 2-3 sets of various similar exercises, 12 reps @ 80%.

FTR, I'm 5'8, 135lb.
Bench Press    135
Lat Pulldown   144
Cable Rows     132
Shoulder Press 135
Preacher Curls  70
Triceps Press   90
Leg Press      450

I've got the gym routine pretty down, so this next two months I'm focusing more on nutrition and cutting down the eating out / eating like crap. Less chick-fil-a and chicken parm and more grilled fish and veggies. Also, no more skipping meals because I am lazy/tired.

Good going man! I'm just curious, are the bench and shoulder press done with free weights or machines?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: bhodi on January 11, 2012, 09:58:54 AM
We stuck to the safe stuff doing the strength tests, so a lot of it was done on the smith, but we generally take the freeweight option whenever it is available. Normal routines are 2-3 sets, 80% of that figure, 12 reps or until failure. Adjusted up/down a little for various exercises, of course.

I'm a big fan of squats, personally. As a climber, it's pretty much the one exercise that helps my climbing the most. Unfortunately, the two guys I go with are less enthusiastic.

I don't do deadlifts (yet) because I can't get the form quite right and I've had a lower back injury in the past (fell off a wall, landed bad) which makes it dicey. I've got a few 'personal trainer' sessions that I got when I signed up at the gym, and I'll be using those almost exclusively to get correct form on some of the harder stuff - squats, deadlifts and kettle bells in particular in the months ahead, once the gym empties out a bit from the resolutioners.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on January 11, 2012, 01:02:24 PM
Ah right, that explains that then; I was trying to see how you could have bench and shoulder press both at body weight (which is really good); since shoulder press will always lag behind bench with free weights (in theory).


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 11, 2012, 03:26:34 PM
135 lb Military presses are tough for me at 185, so great work!  You've really put together a nice set of numbers there.  The tough part will be in deciding where to go from here.  It's always fun for me to think about how I want to shape and improve my level of fitness.  I hope that you can find some fun in it as well.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on January 11, 2012, 05:28:42 PM
If I was that weight I'd be hitting weighted chinups like crazy.

Agreed though, it's a damn fine set of numbers to be working with.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: bhodi on January 11, 2012, 08:22:45 PM
135 lb Military presses are tough for me at 185, so great work!  You've really put together a nice set of numbers there.  The tough part will be in deciding where to go from here.  It's always fun for me to think about how I want to shape and improve my level of fitness.  I hope that you can find some fun in it as well.
Thanks for all the kind words :)  Though as K9 intimated, bench press on the smith rack is basically like cheating.

I'm up for absolutely anything but running. Fuck running! That 5k last year was plenty. I have no interest in ever pushing for distance again; I found it pretty miserable. I am just not built for it. I can't wait for it to get warmer though, I think water is on the menu for this year - I'm going to do a few kayaking daytrips for sure.

The winter is really not the best time to start getting the 'I need to do something outside' itch. We'll see how things look in a few more months once it's warmer.

Edit: Not military. I wish!


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Margalis on January 11, 2012, 10:37:28 PM
Military press != bench press.

Edit: Hmm...shoulder press?

If you can military press the same that you can bench press that is quite odd. 135 is quite a lot for a military press and pretty low for a bench press.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: bhodi on January 11, 2012, 10:39:44 PM
Edit: Getting terms confused again. Yeah, I didn't do military presses, only shoulder. So basically, straight arm down to the top of the head / 90 degree elbow. I've never done military presses, actually. I'll try them out.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on January 12, 2012, 12:39:45 AM
Uh....what?  You are all confusing me.  People often use the military/shoulder terms interchangeably.  I think the original definition of the military press is that you are standing up (like, at attention).  Shoulder press or overhead press would be the generic terms for all these kinds of movements.

I'm not saying anyone is wrong here, I am just trying to figure out what we're talking about.  Each of the variations has its different advantages and disadvantages (range of motion, safety, ease of starting position), but your relative strength would generally be the same.  Unless you are doing some behind the neck stuff, which you should probably avoid.

Personally, I prefer the seated dumbbell shoulder presses.  Range of motion is the best possible for shoulder exercises, and they are totally safe. Hard to cheat.  Downside is that it is a motherfucker to get heavy weights into starting position, and also that it doesn't stimulate your whole body like a standing press would do.  I am routinely doing about 80lbs per hand, up to 8 reps.  Hilariously, I can't even get off one rep at 85 lbs per hand, because of the aforementioned difficulty getting into start position.  My stupid left arm seems to call it quits at that point.  :oh_i_see:

And bhodi - I can't remember if you are the same person I had this conversation before in this thread...but get thee away from that Smith machine ASAP.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Teleku on January 25, 2012, 07:05:12 PM
Hey Nebu, you mentioned last page that you were mainly doing (or had been) body weight exercises, and that you were going to start your ‘killer’ routine for the next 10 weeks.  Mind an update on that?  I’ve just started dieting and exercising again, seeing if I can pull off using nothing but body weight routines.

You gave me some great advice before, and the Body for Life book was very useful.  Alas, I fell off the wagon the last few years, and my body is probably in the worst shape of my life, after spending the last half of the year eating, drinking, and whoring (well, less of that one) across the US and Europe.  However, I really don’t feel like paying for a gym membership, and I’ve read that body weight exercises are actually really effective for getting lean.

To start me off my first few weeks, I’m warming up by running through the routines in an iPhone app called Gorilla Workout (http://www.gorillaworkoutapp.com/).  They don’t take too long to do, but they’re daily, and I’m certainly feeling pretty god damn sore after a few days.  However, from reading around, I get the feeling that I’ll need to be doing longer routines than this if I want to make significant improvement.

Any opinions you have on these sorts of routines would greatly be appreciated.  My main goal is to just look and feel better.  Need to shred all this god damn weight I put on.  While it would be nice to be able to bench press high amounts, run marathons, and perform other feats of strength, my only real goal is to shred fat and look/feel better.  Would keeping up a body weight routine be my best route, or should I move to a more traditional home exercise program like the P90 (I don’t think I’m close to being able to start the P90X right now)?  That also goes for anybody else who has any thoughts, not just Nebu.  ;) 

I just need to find a nice workout and diet program to dedicate myself to intensely over the next 3-6 months, hoping to see significant improvement by summer.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on January 26, 2012, 09:34:07 AM
Sounds like your main goal is shedding fat/weight, and close behind it would be generally getting into shape?  Your diet is your first priority, which should be no surprise.  Energy spent needs to exceed energy intake.  Don't worry about a specific diet, just make sure you aren't devouring calories.  Keep your protein intake (lean protein) relatively high to help avoid too much muscle loss while you lose weight (though depending on what kind of shape you are in, it may be possible to actually gain some muscle while you lose weight).  Avoid drinking your calories at this point.  Protein shakes...probably save it for later.  Water is your friend.

I'm not familiar with a full blown body weight program, but it seems to me that you might need access to at least SOME equipment.  I'll bet Nebu is doing a shitload of pull/chinups, for example, and probably body weight dips (not the girly kind where you hang your ass off a bench and put your feet up...okay, you might need to start with those).  Hell, those are exercises you should consider for any program.  But you need something to do them on, so keep that in mind.

Do some cardio, but don't rely on it.  Cardio is actually a somewhat inefficient way to lose weight - strength training is more effective by far...not only does it burn calories, but it has far greater long term impacts on your metabolism.  Do the cardio for your heart (maybe some running for your core), not your weight.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 26, 2012, 09:41:37 AM
Hey Nebu, you mentioned last page that you were mainly doing (or had been) body weight exercises, and that you were going to start your ‘killer’ routine for the next 10 weeks.  Mind an update on that?  I’ve just started dieting and exercising again, seeing if I can pull off using nothing but body weight routines.

I mentioned that I bought a Power Tower. (http://www.amazon.com/Stamina-50-1700-1700-Power-Tower/dp/B002QCIS6I/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1327592216&sr=8-7)  For body weight exercises, I think that it's a must.  My workouts were mainly a series of supersets that used opposing body groups.  I was pretty surprised to find that I could lose weight and still maintain a reasonable amount of strength as a result. The other great thing was that my workouts were short but intense, rarely lasting more than 30 mins.  Here's what I'd do 6 days a week.

Narrow, reverse grip pullips (biceps/back) to failure followed by dips (shoulders/tris) to failure. (3 sets)

Wide grip pullups (shoulders/back) to failure followed by pushups to failure. (3 sets)

Etc.

I'm halfway through my second week in the weight room. Since it has been a while (and I'm old), I'm starting off easy for a couple of weeks until the soreness subsides.  Here's my routine for the first month:

M: Shoulders/Arms
Dips for a warmup
Side lateral raises (dumbell) x 3
Upright row supersets (6 reps to failure with a curl bar, 10 reps with a 45 lb plate) x 3
Military barbell presses, behind the head (as much weight as I can handle for 6 reps) x 3
Tricep killers (8 skull crushers followed by 8 french curls followed by 8 narrow grip presses) x 3
Tricep pushdowns (use machine and a rope)
Neutral grip pullups to failure x 3
Bicep dumbell killers (8 seated curls, decrease weight and do 8 more, decrease weight and do 8 more) x 3

W: Legs
40 m sprints followed by 100 m cooldown x 10
front squats x 3
leg presses x3
quad curls x 3
reverse quad curls x 3
calf raises x3
jog 1-2 miles

F: Chest/back
Bench press (enough weight to fail at 6-7 reps) followed by wide pushups to failure x 3
incline dumbell presses followed by wide grip pull ups x 3
decline press
Dumbell flys followed by narrow grip machine rows x 3
Machine lat pull downs x 3

If I'm not sore, I do my naturals (above) on T, Th, and Sat along with ab work
Abs:
Vertical leg raise x 3
vertical knee raise, obliques x 3
incline crunches with a plate on my head.  (if using a weight or medicine ball on your chest is too easy, raise it higher for more resistance)


NOTE: I'm a big believer in not working small muscle groups too much, particularly biceps.  They get enough work on chest/back day so I don't over fatigue them on arm days.  If you focus on the major muscle groups (pecs, lats, tris, delts, quads) the smaller, supporting muscles will follow. This helps with strength as well as flexibility.

Also: Nutrition is 90% of the battle.  All the gym time in the world is wasted if you don't eat well.  My diet has become VERY strict lately and I'm seeing the results.  Eat with purpose and fuel with quality.  It makes a HUGE difference.  Maybe some day I'll post pictures.  

I'll be starting GVT (German Volume Training) again in February.  I'll post a routine then.

Hope that helps.











Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 29, 2012, 03:14:53 PM
I'm guessing I went over the top with that.  To simplify: I tend to mix my routines to add muscle confusion and to alternate between building and fitness to keep my joints healthy. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on January 30, 2012, 06:17:19 AM
Yeah, that is a fairly mental schedule.

I'm tempted to give GVT a go. Does it have to be done as a complete program, or can you restrict it to discrete muscle groups while doing other types of work elsewhere? So say, could I be doing a 10x10 chest set using weighted dips and bench on alternate weeks while doing other sorts of work for back and legs?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 30, 2012, 07:03:50 AM
Trust me when I say that just working chest, back, shoulders, and legs will cover the support muscles as well.  A single exercise for each major area 10 x 10 will have the target area and all small muscles screaming.  So feel free to do a little research and see what style fits you best.

M: Chest/back
W: Legs/Abs
F: Shoulders/arms

Would do fine.  With GVT you don't want to workout too often as you'll need the recovery time.

This is the workout I'm planning to start next week.  I'll probably start with flat bench presses and lat pulldowns today and am contemplating doing them as a superset for added intensity.  I try not to allow more than 90s rest between reps, but by the 6th set it gets harder to stay on time.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on January 30, 2012, 08:47:56 AM
I get a sense of that, I tried 10x10 bench on friday to see what it's like and the DOMS over the weekend has been pretty nuts. What do you think of leg press as an exercise for GVT by the way?

I wish I could do 10x10 chins as my back work, but sadly I can't quite do that, and frankly doing assisted chins with less than ~25% of BW feels pointless as the assistance gets lost in movement of the hips and legs. (also I hate assisted chins). I guess I could drop the cleans and snatches for a month and do deadlifts and rows.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 30, 2012, 08:51:54 AM
I get a sense of that, I tried 10x10 bench on friday to see what it's like and the DOMS over the weekend has been pretty nuts. What do you think of leg press as an exercise for GVT by the way?

I much prefer normal squats, front squats, or dumbell lunges for legs as they work more minor groups.  Leg presses, particularly on a machine, just don't offer the same work as using free weights.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on January 30, 2012, 09:27:44 AM
That's fair, I just want to put more emphasis on my quads, and I feel that squats tend to end up favouring the glutes more than I want. Perhaps front squats might be the best.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 30, 2012, 09:29:12 AM
That's fair, I just want to put more emphasis on my quads, and I feel that squats tend to end up favouring the glutes more than I want. Perhaps front squats might be the best.

The nice thing about front squats is that you can get a lot of quad work with much lighter weight than with normal squats.  My back loves them too.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: RhyssaFireheart on January 30, 2012, 09:37:14 AM
I went to my first Zumba class over the weekend.  Made it through the entire class without totally stopping, although I didn't do every move exactly like the instructor showed it (near the end I was freaking tired and sweaty).  I also realized I can't jump.  I'm planning to go back for more since I did enjoy it.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 30, 2012, 11:55:53 AM
Zumba sounds like a wonderful way to get fit.  It reminds me of a time when I was dating a Puerto Rican woman and she made me take salsa lessons.  It quickly brought me to the realization that my hips just don't move that way no matter how badly I wanted them to.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on February 01, 2012, 05:25:15 AM

I'm tempted to give GVT a go. Does it have to be done as a complete program, or can you restrict it to discrete muscle groups while doing other types of work elsewhere? So say, could I be doing a 10x10 chest set using weighted dips and bench on alternate weeks while doing other sorts of work for back and legs?

Having done this a couple months ago for the first time, I can add a little benefit of experience:

- Start at roughly 50 to 60 % of your max for 1 rep.  Be conservative....it is harder than you think.
- Do squats of some sort, no leg presses.  You will want to barf up your fucking guts by set 10 and will laugh at yourself for even considering any other leg exercises.  Walking will be a challenge for the next few days, and that will remain an issue for the duration of the program. You can do some leg curls, but I found them to be a waste of time after the squats (still did them, though).  Also did calf raises, but again, those are laughably easy after the squats.
- Deadlifts are not recommended for GVT.  Considered to be too much stress on the body.  I tend to believe it.
- Don't worry about having to use the lat pulldown machine instead of doing pullups.  Your arms and lats will be melting by the last set.
- I also did pendlay rows and seated cable rows.  Could probably just get by with one of those.  Doing these and lat pulldowns on the same day was sooooo painful.
- For rest times, I actually set my timer for 60 seconds between sets.  This is the single most difficult thing about the program, IMO.  The timer would go by so fast...it had me rethinking my life.  I almost always managed to stick to the time, but it will slip once in a while.
- Every week, put another 5 or 10 pounds on the bar for every exercise, assuming you completed all the reps last week.  It is going to be hell, but that is the point of the program.
- I did abs (simple crunches) on back day, but to be honest...I doubt they are necessary.  The squats are probably giving you all the ab work you need.  I only did them to stretch out my recovery time between pulling sessions.
- While I did incorporate bicep curls and tricep pushdowns, don't worry too much if you can't do full 10 x10s on these.  Your arms are going to be burning anyway.
- Eat.  A lot.
- Be prepared to be tired, crabby, and psychologically impacted.

By far the most difficult training program I have ever tried.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on February 01, 2012, 06:10:29 AM
Considering how beat up I'm feeling from just doing these 5x5 lifts, I want no part of GVT any time soon.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on February 01, 2012, 07:29:38 AM
By far the most difficult training program I have ever tried.

I'm a huge fan of having at least 3 months per year of high intensity training.  It really shocks the hell out of the muscles and the last 3 sets ensure that you destroy even deep muscle for rebuilding.  I do have to confess that I was supposed to start GVT this week, but I put it off.  I was still having some slow recovery days on my current plan and I know that GVT would leave me in a mess.  Hopefully next week.





Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on February 01, 2012, 08:50:04 AM
Yeah, for all my apparent negativity, it is a really good program.  I will do it once in a while just to keep things honest.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on February 01, 2012, 01:39:32 PM
Thanks for the added feedback. I'm still on the fence about leg exercise as I need to be able to cycle 7-9 miles per day getting to and from work, the gym and other places. The lat pulldown is a good idea, I tend to overlook the machines, but this might be appropriate.



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Teleku on February 01, 2012, 11:29:30 PM
Hey guys, thanks for the info!  Sorry for the late response.

Sounds like your main goal is shedding fat/weight, and close behind it would be generally getting into shape?  Your diet is your first priority, which should be no surprise.  Energy spent needs to exceed energy intake.  Don't worry about a specific diet, just make sure you aren't devouring calories.  Keep your protein intake (lean protein) relatively high to help avoid too much muscle loss while you lose weight (though depending on what kind of shape you are in, it may be possible to actually gain some muscle while you lose weight).  Avoid drinking your calories at this point.  Protein shakes...probably save it for later.  Water is your friend.
t inefficient way to lose weight - strength training is more effective by far...not only does it burn calories, but it has far greater long term impacts on your metabolism.  Do the cardio for your heart (maybe some running for your core), not your weight.
Ok, two main questions here (for anybody really): 

First, how much protein should I be consuming in a day?  I've seen the recommended range from .5 grams per pound of body weight, to 1 per pound, to 1 per Kilo.  I'm currently sitting at 222, and am 6'1.  Been logging my meals the last few days since I started my diet.  I'm hitting about 120 grams a day (and that comes from a variety of protein sources.  Chicken breast, black beans, pea soup, Protein bar).  This sound about right, anyone?  Or do I need to increase it?

Second, I've dropped my caloric intake to about 1300-1400 a day.  I know you aren't suppose to go too low, but I think I've adjusted to this.  Take that in about 5 meals spread throughout the day, with nothing after 8-9 PM.  I don't really feel weak, dizzy, or starving at all through the day (just kind of hungry in the run up to the next snack).  Any thoughts/criticisms?

And actually a third question, why do you say not to drink my calories?  I've been looking at possibly grabbing some protein powder if it seems my protein intake isn't high enough.  Also, I've been trying to go for more of a soup diet this time around, as you can get some pretty good stuff out of the can that's healthy (low fat, lots of fiber, decent protein), and its waaaaay easier than trying to cook everything.  So, just curious.

Nebu:
Thanks for the ideas, I'll see if I can read up on some other stuff and clobber together a good program.  Hopefully I'm getting the nutrition stuff down perfectly, as both of you and others say its the most important part.  I've ordered one of those door frame pull-up bars that you can also do dips with.  Between that, push up bars, and a pretty nifty set of resistance bands I ordered in place of dumb bells, I think I can actually pull off some pretty good stuff at home.  However, I can't even really do a full pull up at this point, heh.  Any good exercise I can do to really work those same muscles, so I can start actually doing the damn things?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Margalis on February 01, 2012, 11:37:43 PM
I think far too many people get hung up on exactly what exercises they are doing or exactly what they are eating, probably because a lot of advice trickles down from people like athletes and trainers where it really makes a difference. For a typical person the most important thing by far is to stick to it and not slack. That is why nearly everyone fails at losing weight and keeping it off.

Sticking to a schedule and plan is more important than the particulars.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Teleku on February 02, 2012, 12:15:37 AM
Eh, its also a motivational thing for me.  I have to min/max everything to enjoy it.  I do it in every MMO I play, and I do it for everything IRL.   :awesome_for_real:  I need to at least feel like I doing the most efficient diet and workout routine combo, so that I know what I'm doing is in fact the very best way to shed fat and get healthier.  Very hard for me to follow through and keep up with something (especially something like this, which impacts my daily comfort level so heavily) if something makes me doubt that.  Just a personal qwerk I guess.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on February 02, 2012, 12:18:54 AM
Diet is far more important than anything.  Walking daily with a good diet will lead to weight loss.  

Teleku,

1) About 1.5 g protein per kg mass is a good place to start.  Keep in mind that taking in extra protein will also require extra water (to excrete the excess ammonia as urea).

2) I make a point of never going below 1500 cal for longer than 2 weeks.  Anything longer will reset metabolism to starvation mode.

3) 5-6 small meals a day is great as long as they are a) balanced and b) have only high quality, complex carbs

4) Don't eat within 2h of bed time and always eat breakfast... even if you don't want to.

5) Find a routine that you can stay with.  Make working out an integral part of your daily routine.  A partner will help keep you going.

Hope that helps.  If you want gory details, I'll get to it in the morning.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on February 03, 2012, 01:21:12 AM
What I meant by the "don't drink your calories" statement was simply because I believe that when you are trying to stick to a low calorie diet, you will want to try to get your calories out of something more filling.  For example, 30 grams of protein in a chicken breast will fill you up much better than 30 grams in a protein shake (the chicken also requires more calories to digest it, but that is nit picking).  In other words, it makes holding to your diet easier, because you will be more filled up.  It should go without saying that you also shouldn't drink your calories in the form of sugary drinks...that would be a diet killer.

If the min/maxing is important to you, go for it.  But to be honest, when weight loss is your prime goal, it is probably more important that you just focus on the calories in versus calories out ratio.  If you want to worry about the macro nutrients, and how much protein per kg of mass...that's cool, but really that has more of an impact later on when you are more advanced and specifically trying to build muscle mass or are going through a cutting phase.  Eat less, and eat intelligently.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on February 08, 2012, 01:13:38 PM
So... a friend of mine has been doing the Insanity workout program and is pretty impressed by it.  Anyone here tried it yet?  I don't remember if it has been mentioned or not in this thread.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: murdoc on February 08, 2012, 04:03:18 PM
So... a friend of mine has been doing the Insanity workout program and is pretty impressed by it.  Anyone here tried it yet?  I don't remember if it has been mentioned or not in this thread.

I actually just got back from talking with a friend about doing either the Insanity workout, or the p90x. She couldn't give too many details but it sounds VERY similar.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on February 08, 2012, 04:18:25 PM
I know a few people who have started it and seem to enjoy it (providing they survive the vomit inducing first week).  Seems to be just intense interval training with a lot of Plyo stuff. I keep meaning to track a copy down on eBay but I know I'm never going to make room in my life for an hour each day in front of a TV doing exercise. I have to be out on the trails or in the gym. My lounge is a sacred, exercise-free zone.  :grin:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on February 08, 2012, 07:38:26 PM
One day I will learn how to handle enforced rest due to injury.  Or, maybe not be such a god damn idiot and re-injure the same fiinger three weeks in a row and be forced to become friends with Mr. Splint.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Ghambit on February 08, 2012, 08:38:38 PM
There's some good fitness stuff on Hulu (Plus), and I'm sure Netflix too.  Hulu has the GAIAM network which is pretty popular.
I've actually been diggin my Kinect for 'Your Shape 2012.'  It's no joke on hardmode, especially with a nice set of soft handweights (say between 3 and 12 lbs).   

Between those two and my community gym for weight work there really are no excuses.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: brellium on February 10, 2012, 11:33:26 PM
Well, I picked up P90X earlier in January after reading the reviews specificly regarding the diet plan as I had become sick of my diet and was unable to mantain it (when actually the probem was I was just sick and unable to mantain the diet). It looks like a good program, and I gave it a shot this week.

Day 1

Oh push ups this is easy I was doing 100+ a day in september 20, 10, 2, 2, 1....
Pull ups? ??

That six month run in with a sinus infection was evil, so was the 4 months off my excerise regimen and 2 months off Tae Kwon Do.

Day 2

Polymetrics, ok at 30 minutes in I realized I had TKD classes and I would be doing everything I was doing in class again that evening (which I did for an hour), and stoped.

Day 3 

No P90X, instead had an hour of kickboxing and an hour of TKD.

Day 4 & 5

Nothing, too sore to move.

Tomorrow is more TKD

I suspect I will be using it just to fill holes.

The diet plan is nice but I'm too lazy to follow it and will contiue to stick with brown rice oatmeal and chicken for protein.

It was really odd the sinus infection goes away and without missing a beat I'm back on the diet, since August of the year prior through June I managed to push off what I suspect is around 80lbs (sadly I gained 15 back with the sinus infection)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on February 13, 2012, 04:02:25 AM
Looking for some advice/good ideas.

I may have mentioned in this thread before that my left arm seems to be a fair bit weaker than my right.  Seems to be something in the front delt/shoulder region.  I am starting to think that whatever is going on is preventing me from "breaking through" to my next level of gains.  Time and again I will experience something where my left arm will fail to push up a weight (like if I am trying to 1 rep max something...) where my right arm will push it up with relative ease.

I was on a machine doing supplemental bench presses (after a round of dumbbell presses) the other day...one of those where you actually load up the plates for each arm.  I was going for one rep at 120kg (about 260 lbs-ish), so that is 60kg isolated on each arm.  I start pushing, only to realize that I am failing miserably on my left arm.  Just for giggles, I continue pushing with my right and have little trouble getting it up.  I've no doubt I could have pushed 70kg on that arm.  This is just an example of something I encounter pretty frequently when going for new maxes.  It seems to be even worse on shoulder/military presses, which is why I tend to think it has mostly to do with an issue in my delt muscles (I can also feel it there).  It's this same problem that keeps me from getting past the 36kg dumbbell shoulder presses.  Right arm will push up 38kg no problem, but the left fails almost immediately.

Any ideas how I can work to get past this?  It doesn't necessarily bother me that one arm is a little weaker than the other - that actually makes some sense.  But when the weaker arm is preventing my from moving forward, that's another matter.

If it helps with your advice giving, be aware that I stick almost exclusively to doing traditional, compound lifting with free weights (barbells and dumbbells).  I stay away from isolation exercises and only use machines as a supplement or for certain pulling exercises.  Not that I am totally against doing things differently, it was just to provide better context.



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on February 13, 2012, 07:26:00 AM
My advice: Do dumbell military presses and side lateral raises.  Do both seated so that you avoid the use of momentum.  Dumbells will ensure that your strong arm doesn't help the weak arm.  When your weak arm fails, stop.  In a few weeks it will catch up.  Some bodybuilders will suggest using a dumbell 5 lbs heavier on your weak side.





Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on February 14, 2012, 12:59:06 AM
My advice: Do dumbell military presses and side lateral raises.  Do both seated so that you avoid the use of momentum.  Dumbells will ensure that your strong arm doesn't help the weak arm.  When your weak arm fails, stop.  In a few weeks it will catch up.  Some bodybuilders will suggest using a dumbell 5 lbs heavier on your weak side.


Sometimes I think you don't understand me at all!   :oh_i_see:

Seated military presses are one of my favorite exercises...I cannot realistically do them more than I already do.  I also thought about doing 2kg heavier on the weak side, but the more I think about it, the less sense it makes to me.  I mean, it would end up failing at the same point on the weak arm anyway, and the strong arm would just have even more strength left over.  The disparity would end up being even larger, would it not?  I begin to wonder if it wouldn't make sense to put more weight on the strong arm, but that presents its own issues.

I don't know.  I might just have to accept this as a fact of life.  In the meantime, I think the approach I will take will be to do a better overall shoulder routine...involving more lateral raises and other isolation exercises targeting the medial and posterior heads, as well as better isolation on the traps.  Maybe if I can better build up some of the supporting muscles in isolation, I will find a way to break through.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Der Helm on February 14, 2012, 10:02:38 AM
My advice: Do dumbell military presses and side lateral raises.  Do both seated so that you avoid the use of momentum.  Dumbells will ensure that your strong arm doesn't help the weak arm.  When your weak arm fails, stop.  In a few weeks it will catch up.  Some bodybuilders will suggest using a dumbell 5 lbs heavier on your weak side.

Seated military presses are one of my favorite exercises...I cannot realistically do them more than I already do.  I also thought about doing 2kg heavier on the weak side, but the more I think about it, the less sense it makes to me.  I mean, it would end up failing at the same point on the weak arm anyway, and the strong arm would just have even more strength left over.  The disparity would end up being even larger, would it not?  I begin to wonder if it wouldn't make sense to put more weight on the strong arm, but that presents its own issues.
In my (limited) understanding, the idea is to reach the "failure" point. Because (I think Nebu used that term) "destroying" the muscle gives him the largest growth stimulus. And since only one arm reaches that state, it should catch up sooner or later.

Also... diet question. I am trying to find out how much calories I am supposed to eat. I am about 1.80mtall, and my goal is reaching a weight of around 80kg (metric system for the win). Almost every internet source I can find tells me that I should eat abot 2500 calories per day at that weight. Right now I am way to far into the triple digits wheigt wise. If I just limit my intake to that ammount and (of course) start up doing sport (again), nothing can go wrong, right ? So far, I seem to have been losing about 100g of weight every other day for the last 2 weeks.

I ask this because every friend/family member I asked told me that 2500 calories are WAY TOO MUCH and that I should aim for 1800 at the most.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on February 14, 2012, 10:35:33 AM


In my (limited) understanding, the idea is to reach the "failure" point. Because (I think Nebu used that term) "destroying" the muscle gives him the largest growth stimulus. And since only one arm reaches that state, it should catch up sooner or later.

Also... diet question. I am trying to find out how much calories I am supposed to eat. I am about 1.80mtall, and my goal is reaching a weight of around 80kg (metric system for the win). Almost every internet source I can find tells me that I should eat abot 2500 calories per day at that weight. Right now I am way to far into the triple digits wheigt wise. If I just limit my intake to that ammount and (of course) start up doing sport (again), nothing can go wrong, right ? So far, I seem to have been losing about 100g of weight every other day for the last 2 weeks.

I ask this because every friend/family member I asked told me that 2500 calories are WAY TOO MUCH and that I should aim for 1800 at the most.

Your goal is roughly to lose .5-1kg per week, so roughly a 550 calorie/day deficit


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Der Helm on February 14, 2012, 10:38:58 AM
Your goal is roughly to lose .5-1kg per week, so roughly a 550 calorie/day deficit
Then I am right on track atm. Only 1,5 years to go. Yay!.  :drill:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on February 14, 2012, 10:42:52 AM
Also... diet question. I am trying to find out how much calories I am supposed to eat. I am about 1.80mtall, and my goal is reaching a weight of around 80kg (metric system for the win). Almost every internet source I can find tells me that I should eat abot 2500 calories per day at that weight. Right now I am way to far into the triple digits wheigt wise. If I just limit my intake to that ammount and (of course) start up doing sport (again), nothing can go wrong, right ? So far, I seem to have been losing about 100g of weight every other day for the last 2 weeks.

I ask this because every friend/family member I asked told me that 2500 calories are WAY TOO MUCH and that I should aim for 1800 at the most.

Common formula to work out Basal Metabolic Rate is the Harris-Benedict equation. The metric version for a male is:

66 + ( 13.7 x weight in kilos ) + ( 5 x height in cm ) - ( 6.8 x age in years )

Then you multiply this by a factor that's dependent on how active you are from day to day. (1.1 for a very sedentary, deskbound lifestyle up to 1.7+ if you are extremely active, do a load of sports etc.) It's a rough guideline but seems to work.

EDIT for spelling. Also, yeah, for your height and target weight, you would be roughly looking to take in about 2000-2200 kCal (bearing in mind I don't know how old you are).


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on February 15, 2012, 05:21:18 AM
Here's an interesting chart for you to stroke/deflate your ego with:

http://www.strstd.com/ (http://www.strstd.com/)

Apparently I am up near the "elite" group in terms of shoulder strength, so I think I will stop whining about that. :oh_i_see:  My bench stacks up a little better than I thought, too, getting up to the "advanced" region. 

My squats and deads, otoh, are only a bit over the intermediate (thought my deads were a little higher), so I think I will have to consider putting in a little more effort there.

Take it all with a grain of salt, I guess.  I find these kinds of things fun, if only for the debatability of them.  No idea what they base this on.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on February 15, 2012, 07:09:33 AM
Here's an interesting chart for you to stroke/deflate your ego with:

http://www.strstd.com/ (http://www.strstd.com/)

Cool site.  I like that it generates a 5/3/1 plan for you. 

I want an age adjustment, damnit!!!


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on February 15, 2012, 07:11:08 AM
Well, let's see...because you are X number of years older than me, you have had X number of additional years of available training to take advantage of, thus you should be X% stronger.

So, reduce all your numbers by, say, 25% and you should be just about right  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on February 15, 2012, 07:28:35 AM
Need some help from you guys.  I'm having a tough time getting gains on my back.  I'm really trying to get up to 10 wide grip chin ups but I can't seem to get past 8.  I've been doing chest-back supersets to try and shock muscle, but even fresh I still struggle to get more than 8.  Bent over dumbbell rows don't work well for me, so I've been doing most of my back work with chins and machines (wide grip pull downs and seated narrow grip rows). 

If you guys have some good back exercises for strength gains, I'd love to hear what has worked well.   


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on February 15, 2012, 07:45:28 AM
I hate hate HATE wide grip pullups.  They are just so uncomfortable to me.  That said, as you must know, wide grips are far more lat intensive, so one way you could go about it is to find a lat machine and try to murder your lats on it for a few weeks.  My arms generally fail before my lats will on pullups, which is one of the reasons I like the lat machine...it seems to target my lats slightly better, as counterintuitive as that seems.

Another thing I have noticed several times...I prefer close grip chins or neutral grip pullups, and one week I will be able to pound out 15, 15, 12, 10, etc., no problemo  Next week, I go back and do 10, 10, 5 and my arms are absolutely dying.  Seriously, last week I wanted to puke after doing exactly this.  What I noticed is that when I am failing big time on these pulls/chins, it is because I am on a low calorie diet.  In other words, this one exercise, more than any other exercise I do, seems to have a success factor almost directly related to my general calorie intake and/or general energy level.  It is weird as hell, and I have noticed it on several occasions.  I mean, other lifts will start to degrade and get weaker as one would expect, but I flat out FAIL with these.  So, maybe try a week or two off of the famous Nebu 1200 calorie diet - bump it up to 2k - and see what happens?  Just a thought.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on February 15, 2012, 08:56:26 AM
I hate hate HATE wide grip pullups.  They are just so uncomfortable to me.  That said, as you must know, wide grips are far more lat intensive, so one way you could go about it is to find a lat machine and try to murder your lats on it for a few weeks.  My arms generally fail before my lats will on pullups, which is one of the reasons I like the lat machine...it seems to target my lats slightly better, as counterintuitive as that seems.

Just a tip I learned years back:  Don't go to full extension when targeting back on chins or a machine.  if you keep your elbows slightly bent, you will isolate the back more and fatigue your arms less.  I sometimes even use straps so that I don't fatigue grip using higher weight/lower rep workouts. 

Diet: I'm going up to 1500 cal.  I've hit my 185lb target and don't see a reason to get smaller.  I'm still not to 6% body fat yet, so I'll just have to watch the quality of calories.  Last night for dinner I ate a pound of shrimp (bad nebu, high cholesterol) and a salad.  If you're not familiar, Richard Wiendruch (U Wisconsin) does some very interesting research on delayed aging and caloric restriction.  Science 27 August 1999:Vol. 285 no. 5432 pp. 1390-1393  or DOI: 10.1126/science.285.5432.1390

I'm contemplating staying on a high nutrient, 1500 Cal diet if I can manage it.  I just need to drink more water and give up diet coke.



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on February 17, 2012, 03:56:20 AM
Interesting tip, I will keep that in mind.  I think I sort of naturally do that anyway, except for the last few reps of pullups - then I am simply hanging as an excuse rest for half a beat.

Reminds me of something funny - I get a chuckle out of most people who use the pull down machines when they try to go heavy.  The angle of their elbows only changes a few degrees from flexion to extension, and instead they kind of stretch out their entire upper body and kind of bob up and down at the same time.  Looks hilarious.  Maybe they are just really, REALLY trying to isolate their lats?  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Chimpy on February 17, 2012, 06:14:00 AM
Since this apparently has turned into the general diet and exercise thread, I decided at the first of the year that I had to start eating better and lose some weight. I found this little app for my phone that lets me scan/lookup foods and keep track of my calories and it has really helped a lot.

I started out around 280 and am down below 260 for the first time in probably 3-5 years. I have found that keeping myself right around 1500 calories a day is not too bad. I never ate a huge amount of food I just ate way too much red meat/cheese/bread/fried food and was drinking high sugar lemonade.

Next week I am going to start working out to get in better shape as well. I think my "goal" is to finish around 225 or 230 which I haven't been since I got out of high school.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on February 17, 2012, 06:45:05 AM
Yeah, this has been the general fitness thread for a while.  Somebody should think about changing the name of the thread.

Anyway, good you on Chimpy.  You should join our Fitocracy group.  It's kind of a fun way to make you push yourself a little bit, especially if you have that min/maxer thing in you, plus it also can help you track your workouts a little (though there are admittedly better ways).


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Chimpy on February 17, 2012, 07:10:10 AM
My problem with working out is always motivational. I really think I need to have a personal trainer, at least at first. Without someone pushing me I tend to give up.

I have a free through work membership at a gym on the other side of town, but it takes me 15 minutes each way to get there and my schedule is so busy with the two jobs that I don't have that kind of time so I will probably join the gym that is 4 blocks away. It is 20 a month which is definitely doable.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on February 17, 2012, 07:19:44 AM
My key to working out is to make it a part of my daily routine.  It's as important as any other aspect of my day.  If you don't treat it this way, it's far too easy to take a day off.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on February 17, 2012, 07:20:34 AM
The problem with personal trainers is that they seem to universally be complete idiots.  Either that or they just don't give a shit.  If it paid anything even remotely decent, I would soooooo become a PT, just so I could balance out the world of retarded PTs.  You can do so much better just by learning about things yourself, in my opinion.

Honestly, in any case, you need to find the motivation inside yourself.  I don't think it works if it is someone else trying to project it onto you, because you will only learn to resent them.  My advice to you right now would be to just force yourself through the motions for the first few weeks.  I don't mean cheating your way through it, I mean literally pushing your way through it despite the fact that you are feeling miserable about it.  At some magical point, things start to change.  You start to like it.  Then, you start to love it.  Keep at it long enough, you will actually become addicted to it.

There is no finish line, but the starting line is right in front of you.  Go for it.  If you want any help in terms of what kind of stuff to do and what kind of goals you want to achieve, there are intelligent people in this very thread that can help guide you.

My key to working out is to make it a part of my daily routine.  It's as important as any other aspect of my day.  If you don't treat it this way, it's far too easy to take a day off.

Not only that, but I think you get to a point where you begin to prioritise your life differently.  My working out is not secondary in my life, it is right near the top of my priorities (as long as family is not neglected).  I intensely dislike having to skip a day.  Through reasons I cannot control, I haven't worked out since Tuesday and it is driving me absolutely BONKERS.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on February 17, 2012, 07:31:00 AM
Also, I am reminded about a guy I see going to my gym.  I see the guy there at least 30% of the time I am there, which means he is probably going there quite a lot, maybe every day.  This is a big, big guy.  I imagine that when I saw him for the first time about 4 or 5 months ago, he was pushing 400 pounds, and it wasn't a lot of muscle.  He plugs away at it, day after day.  You can almost see the shame he has in his eyes, the embarassment he feels as he rather slowly plods along on the bike or the treadmill, or pushes rather modest weights over his head.  But god dammit if this guy hasn't changed the way he looks over the past few months.  You can see the confidence build, the change in the look in his eye, and the outline of his frame decreasing.  The wheels on the bike are going faster, and the weights above his head are a bit heavier.  I cannot imagine what he has gone through or is going through, but this is the one guy at the gym that impresses me more than any other five combined.  Fucking good for him.  If he kind find motivation, and the dedication to stick with it, then the rest of us can too.  That's what I think every time I see the guy.  I want to go over and high-five him every time I see him, but I imagine that would just make him feel weird.   :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on February 17, 2012, 10:56:18 AM
That's awesome


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on February 17, 2012, 11:48:25 AM
I think Cyrrex has nailed it.  Yes, you have the stupid little twats in yoga pants, heels and make-up that are flirting with the latest Jersey Shore extra who was doing curls in the god damn squat rack, but everyone hates those jackasses.  Even though that seems to be the rep a lot of gyms get, and people's greatest fear of not fitting in.

For the most part, if you're there and putting in the honest effort, people will respect that - regardless of what you look like, and it won't matter if you're doing 10 lb dumbbells or 75's. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: RhyssaFireheart on February 17, 2012, 12:20:40 PM
I think Cyrrex has nailed it.  Yes, you have the stupid little twats in yoga pants, heels and make-up that are flirting with the latest Jersey Shore extra who was doing curls in the god damn squat rack, but everyone hates those jackasses.  Even though that seems to be the rep a lot of gyms get, and people's greatest fear of not fitting in.

For the most part, if you're there and putting in the honest effort, people will respect that - regardless of what you look like, and it won't matter if you're doing 10 lb dumbbells or 75's. 
I've decided to just ignore those types and just focus on myself.  Yes, I'm not proud I'm the biggest woman in the Sunday morning Zumba class, but goddammit, I'm there and moving my fat ass around so that it will eventually not be so fat.  I can't always keep up with the move changes (this class is seriously crowded and seeing the instructor can be a challenge) but I do keep moving.  In fact, I'm rather surprised at the fact that I have been able to keep moving for a solid 50 minutes all told.  This Sunday will be the 4th class I've gone to but already I'm not dying in soreness and pain on Monday and Tuesday.  I am far less coordinated than I thought, though.

Plus the class is much more interesting than just walking on a treadmill for 30 minutes at a time.  I do need to add some weights into the mix to build up my muscle strength, but right now I'm focusing on doing the Zumba first and getting the routine of that more solid before adding another step.  I'd also like to add in a fitness yoga class to help with flexibility somewhat, but the class I want to go to is Wednesday nights at 7:30 and I've ended up working late the past few Wednesdays.  If I don't leave work by 5pm, there is no way I'm making a 7:30 class :(

Probably once I'm ready to seriously add the weights, I'll post here for advice.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on February 17, 2012, 12:39:01 PM
For the most part, if you're there and putting in the honest effort, people will respect that - regardless of what you look like, and it won't matter if you're doing 10 lb dumbbells or 75's. 

This.  I have far more respect for someone trying than someone going as part of the fashion show. 

Have I mentioned that I hate people that swing weights just to look like they're curling more?  Fucking posers.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: RhyssaFireheart on February 17, 2012, 01:52:07 PM
Have I mentioned that I hate people that swing weights just to look like they're curling more?  Fucking posers.
I was always under the impression that swinging weights could be detrimental or even hurt you.  Not from anything anything someone said, just the idea that swinging a weight around can't be a good thing.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: bhodi on February 17, 2012, 02:33:43 PM
Speaking of swinging weights around, kettlebell figure 8s are monstrous. I feel like I'm crippled - I'm still hobbling around from Tuesday's all-kettle leg day. Figure 8s, squats, lunges, calf raises. I haven't been this sore since my first two weeks.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on February 20, 2012, 12:17:58 AM
Have I mentioned that I hate people that swing weights just to look like they're curling more?  Fucking posers.
I was always under the impression that swinging weights could be detrimental or even hurt you.  Not from anything anything someone said, just the idea that swinging a weight around can't be a good thing.

The swinging that Nebu is talking about in this case is when someone is doing standing dumbbell curls for their biceps.  The thing is, if you kind of get your upper body moving too much and your arms going back too far without coming to a stop, you can rather easily "swing" up quite a bit more weight than you are actually capable of lifting.  It isn't dangerous, so much as it makes you look like a giant douche.

But while we're on the subject, I tend to agree with you.  I don't understand the kettlebell phenomenon, which almost always involves swinging the weights.  This is partly do to ignorance, I will admit, but what are people supposedly achieving with these things?  I suppose the squat and other leg related exercise are okay, as I doubt you are swinging too much...but that Figure 8 thing looks like a terrible idea.  KBs in general seem like a bad idea to me, I don't know.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Merusk on February 20, 2012, 06:37:09 AM
For the most part, if you're there and putting in the honest effort, people will respect that - regardless of what you look like, and it won't matter if you're doing 10 lb dumbbells or 75's. 

This.  I have far more respect for someone trying than someone going as part of the fashion show. 

Have I mentioned that I hate people that swing weights just to look like they're curling more?  Fucking posers.

What baffles me is seeing these guys at 5am.  Nobody's there to look at you, studly.  Stop dropping the weight into your thigh then hip-thrusting to get it going again and drop some weight if you can't do it without the gyrations.

I guess another part of it is self-delusion.   "I can do 75# one-hand curls!"  No.  No, you can't.

It could also be that he's just an ass, since it's the same jackass who likes clanging the weights and wears a T with the sleeves and neck ripped-out and shorts no matter the weather. Yes, all the 40 & 50 year old women are swooning at you, brosef.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on February 20, 2012, 07:14:13 AM
Pushing the dumbbell off from the thigh with hip thrust?  Haven't seen that one...sounds hilarious, though.

For the record, I wear shorts at the gym almost all the time.  Largely because it is more comfortable.  I will also wear those dry-fit lycra tops without the sleeves (not torn out...they come that way).  Mostly, this is because I am a little OCD about having things like sleeves and loose clothing get in the way of my concentration when I am lifting.  Seriously, the thought of an errant sleeve while I am pushing weight over my head...just the thought drives me bonkers.  If it also makes the cougars a little randy, well, I can live with that.   :uhrr:

I am now wondering if I am the giant douche type that I usually can't stand.  Thanks for the complex, Merusk!



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Chimpy on February 20, 2012, 07:18:23 AM
We all are a bit of the giant douche we can't stand. It is a fact of life.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on February 20, 2012, 07:21:20 AM
We all are a bit of the giant douche we can't stand. It is a fact of life.

The only time I'm a douche at the gym is when people don't pick up after themselves.  I really hate it when people leave their weights on the bar or dumbbells on the floor. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Merusk on February 20, 2012, 07:25:30 AM
Unless you're clanging the weights on purpose, you're not the douche. (How do I know it's on purpose?  He just ripped out 12-15 of those exercises where you're bending sideways on the machine with the weight strap held at your head.  (I don't know what they're called, obviously.)   Little effort expended but he lets go of the weight when he's halfway to neutral so it CLANGS and shakes the floor.

Shorts I understand at a lot of gyms.  I wear them once the weather warms up myself.  However, my gym is a glass-box Urban Active where they turn the heat down at 6pm Sunday when they close the gym.  It doesn't get turned up again until sometime around 4:30am Monday when the first trainer shows up(and sometimes not until 5)  That place is damn chilly when it's below 32 outside, even if you're working out.   Maybe I'm just old and the weather's starting to affect me.

Even Muscle shirts I get. But Ripped-T's?  :awesome_for_real:  Why not pull on that <high school sport team> shirt in your mid-20s and 30's?

See there's a line and he's over it on all of them.  :grin:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on February 20, 2012, 07:39:44 AM
Hah!  Barring people with neck injuries, I doubt you ever really need to train your neck muscles in isolation.  Pretty hilarious to envision.

Re: the weight cleaning up thing.  I actually will often leave the 45 plates on the bar (one on each side) because I expect that actually makes it easier on the next person.  6 in 1, half dozen in the other?

I also once deliberately left something like 14 45lb plates on a squat machine because the guy kept watching me like some kind of impatient dick.



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: bhodi on February 20, 2012, 09:48:32 AM
.but that Figure 8 thing looks like a terrible idea.  KBs in general seem like a bad idea to me, I don't know.
Just to make sure we're on the same page, This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAlHvT1tH5Y) is what I'm talking about. Half squat, I guess that the weight is really just shifting around making you use the different stabilizer muscles. Whatever it does, it works. Try 30-45 seconds with 30lbs.

I just wear gym shorts & tshirts that got accidentally splashed with bleach / have holes / used when I painted. There are tons of people with form-fitting underarmor or other, worse, 'dress up' style tshirts with no arms and what not. I'm not there to flirt or strut, I'm there to get stronger.


I guess another part of it is self-delusion.   "I can do 75# one-hand curls!"  No.  No, you can't.

This reminds me of The Iron, by Henry Rollins (http://www.oldtimestrongman.com/strength-articles/iron-henry-rollins). Truer words have never been spoken:
Quote
The Iron never lies to you. You can walk outside and listen to all kinds of talk, get told that you're a god or a total bastard. The Iron will always kick you the real deal. The Iron is the great reference point, the all-knowing perspective giver. Always there like a beacon in the pitch black. I have found the Iron to be my greatest friend. It never freaks out on me, never runs. Friends may come and go. But two hundred pounds is always two hundred pounds.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on February 20, 2012, 10:07:12 AM
Ah, okay.  I was only looking at pics, so I imagined something more horrifying going on.  That actually looks okay.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: NowhereMan on February 26, 2012, 04:40:36 PM
Finally got back into the gym, spent the previous two weeks not lifting because I managed to horribly burn my hand grabbing a red hot pan. I never imagined I'd be happy to have somewhere to go at 6 in the morning, starting to think I need to switch up my routine a bit though, I've been doing more or less the same thing for 6 months but have had a couple of weeks off her and there for various reasons, so I'm not sure if I need to' shock my body' or whatever for more gains but it might be nice to shake things up a bit.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Chimpy on February 26, 2012, 04:59:09 PM
So I went and got the membership to the nearby club on friday, it is a no-frills at all kind of place so I don't think I will have to worry about the meat market types. The clientele seems to be mostly middle aged office workers. Have not had a chance to get in to work out yet as their weekend hours are shorter and I had to work yesterday and today I was super busy.

Probably will start going on Tuesday as tomorrow is my first day at the new job and I don't think I will have any time.

Diet is still going well, though weight loss has slowed a bit. Am down between 25-30lbs from my heaviest, and probably 20-25 from where I was at when I started the diet the first week of January.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on February 28, 2012, 07:03:26 AM
Nowhereman:  Want to shock your system?  Try out that German Volume Training we have talked about in the recent past.  Whether or not it leads to improvement is something we can discuss, but it will no doubt "shock" you.

For me, I am going back and doing Starting Strength, even though it is technically for novices.  I have realized that my squats are going terribly, in large part because my form is SHIT.  I don't think I have been going down to parallel and lower, and it has meant that I don't believe I have actually been getting any stronger.  So I am resetting things a bit and starting over..  I think it will improve my other lifts (my bench form has always been shit, too, so I will work on that), and will make me do Power Cleans as well, which I have never really tried.  Turns out I suck at them.

Chimpy:  good on you, dude.  Keep plugging away at it.  And make sure you are lifting weights.  Cardio is for your heart and lungs, not for your weight loss.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on February 28, 2012, 08:56:17 AM
Chimpy:  good on you, dude.  Keep plugging away at it.  And make sure you are lifting weights.  Cardio is for your heart and lungs, not for your weight loss.

I agree. 

Chart of Cal/hr burned by a variety of activities. (http://www.nutristrategy.com/activitylist3.htm)

Building muscle mass is the fastest way to increase your base metabolic rate.  More muscle, the more you can eat without gaining weight.  This is one of the biggest drawbacks to my new physique.  I love to eat.  Having dropped 30 lbs, about 70% of which was muscle mass, has forced me to eat a lot less to maintain my new weight.  I miss being able to eat until full.  Now I just eat until I'm satiated... and drink water to fill up.  Meh.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Merusk on February 28, 2012, 10:21:56 AM
That chart has never, ever made sense to me when looking at the swimming numbers.  Never.   Somehow swimming laps is ~= to running an 11.5 min mile?

Funny. Very funny.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on February 28, 2012, 11:01:55 AM
That chart has never, ever made sense to me when looking at the swimming numbers.  Never.   Somehow swimming laps is ~= to running an 11.5 min mile?

Funny. Very funny.

It's certainly not a one-size-fits-all thing.  I'm sure some of the approximations are terribly wrong.  It was more to show that you have to do a lot of aerobic work to get any serious calorie loss from it.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on February 28, 2012, 12:22:40 PM
That chart has never, ever made sense to me when looking at the swimming numbers.  Never.   Somehow swimming laps is ~= to running an 11.5 min mile?

Funny. Very funny.

Have you seen how most people swim laps?   :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Merusk on February 28, 2012, 07:11:52 PM
You have a very good point. 

I'd be less dissatisfied if - like they do with running - they'd break it down to speeds or ability.   My 200yard warmup kick is not someone else's.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on February 29, 2012, 12:13:31 AM
Yes, and MY 200m warmup kick - whatever that is - would take even greater amounts of energy, as I would be in a titanic struggle just to complete it.  I swim like a sack of rocks.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on February 29, 2012, 08:36:49 AM
My gym has a pool, so occasionally I'll swim laps in it.  Me swimming laps isn't even fucking close to the swim team practice going on in the next lane.   


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: RhyssaFireheart on February 29, 2012, 10:23:15 AM
My gym has a pool, so occasionally I'll swim laps in it.  Me swimming laps isn't even fucking close to the swim team practice going on in the next lane.   
Ugh, this is why I don't care for swimming laps with the husband.  He was on the swim team in HS and it shows.  Makes me feel like I'm flailing around while he's just gliding through the water, the bastard.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Der Helm on March 01, 2012, 10:56:47 AM
Anyway, good you on Chimpy.  You should join our Fitocracy group. 
I am not Chimpy, but I just got my invite to Fitocracy, I need some peer presure, so how do I join ?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on March 01, 2012, 11:08:10 AM
If there's some kind of motivational support fitness group here, count me in as well.  As much of a psycho as I am about diet and fitness I still have my moments of weakness.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on March 01, 2012, 12:01:24 PM
http://www.fitocracy.com/group/2781/ is the group link.  It looks like we need one more person before we're able to send out group invites proper.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Mosesandstick on March 01, 2012, 12:07:52 PM
Now you have enough! I'm kind of like Nebu, except the complete opposite where I'm weak with the odd moment about diet and fitness.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Der Helm on March 01, 2012, 12:09:23 PM
Joined.

Also, Ding/gratz level 3. Wohooo...  :grin:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Chimpy on March 01, 2012, 08:45:32 PM
Someone send me an invite plz. I guess this is like the old school Gmail where you have to know someone on the inside?

(No I am not using my facebook login).


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on March 01, 2012, 09:57:27 PM
Don't think I want to put the group invite and code publically, but Chimpy, check your PM


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on March 02, 2012, 06:29:29 AM
Awesome, we seem to be a legitimate group now. 

Nebu, I'll PM you the code.  Anyone else wants one, just say so.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on March 02, 2012, 07:10:04 AM
Thanks.  I'm in.  I'll try to log my workout today. 

I've gone to a strange floating schedule to maximize recovery time and minimize injury.  I seem to be getting strength gains, but it almost feels like I'm not doing enough. 

Been lifting for 30 years and I'm still learning.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Chimpy on March 04, 2012, 06:06:00 PM
So I had my "complementary" session with the trainer that came with my gym membership. It was not bad, but I realized just how out of shape/inflexible I am these days. Was all body weight/balance/core kind of things. I definitely need to work on my flexibility and basic cardio stuff before I really dig deep into the resistance stuff. But at least I crossed the "got in there and did SOMETHING" threshold. I was unable to go all week because my sinuses were so plugged I could barely breathe.

Think this week is going to be me focusing on doing 30 minutes on the bike each morning.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on March 19, 2014, 04:57:01 AM
I am trying out something new.  Had started back on a Starting Strength program, but because I broke the shit out of my barbell at home, I had to ditch it (because the weights at my gym only go down to 2.5 kg, which makes that kind of linear progression almost impossible).  So I am doing a variation on the German Volume Training program, where instead of doing many sets at about 60% for 10 reps, I am doing many sets at about 80-90% for 3 reps.  So a few warmup sets, and then 7 sets of 3 reps at heavy weight.  Then top it off with a final set of 10 to 20 reps at a 50-70% max.  So would look something like this (lifted from my Fitocracy stats):

Barbell Squat:

    60 kg x 8 reps (+64 pts)
    80 kg x 5 reps (+76 pts)
    100 kg x 5 reps (+102 pts)
    110 kg x 3 reps (+95 pts)
    110 kg x 3 reps (+95 pts)
    110 kg x 3 reps (+95 pts)
    110 kg x 3 reps (+95 pts)
    110 kg x 3 reps (+95 pts)
    110 kg x 3 reps (+95 pts)
    110 kg x 3 reps (+95 pts)
    60 kg x 20 reps (+74 pts) - 74 points...hah!  I wanted to die by number 17.

Then adding some complementary stuff after doing the main compound lift (e.g. leg presses and calf raises after the squats).  I rather like it so far.  Kinda tough like GVT, but no so psychologically challenging that I want to cut myself.  Getting some nice DOMS...deadlift day hit my traps like that haven't been hit in a long time (with help of the heavier-than-shit rack pulls).  Downside is that it takes a long time.  That above example took like 50 minutes, or something close to that.  In terms of progression, I am trying to figure out if I should attempt 115kg x3 next week, or if it should be 110kg x 4 for the 7 working sets.  

Anyway, for the first time in a while (since GVT, really), I feel like I have really upped the intensity.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Chimpy on March 22, 2014, 08:28:52 PM
Update:

Haven't been able to make it to the gym much at all, though I did make it yesterday morning and rode the bike for a while and kept my heart rate pretty much in the cardio target zone the whole time which is good.

Weighed myself this morning, 247.

I am almost at the point where my 36 waist khakis might even fit!


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Chimpy on April 03, 2012, 07:46:32 AM
So I am down to 245. Did some weight machine work at the gym today instead of just riding the bike. Realized just how much my muscles have atrophied since I stopped working manual labor.  :sad_panda:

FYI for you fitocracy folks, they have an iOS app now.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on April 03, 2012, 09:17:18 AM
Keep at it.  2 lbs a week is a solid rate of loss.  I recommend doing weight work.  It will do far more for your weight loss and fitness than riding the bike will.

Updates:

1) I have stopped posting on Fitocracy.  Thanks for all of the support there, but I just didn't have the time to update now that I'm working out 4-6 times a week and running more in the evenings.

2) I've found a really interesting new program that some of you may like to try.  It's called a 7-4-7 system.

You do 3 sets of an exercise, each set containing 7-4-7 reps.  You do 7 reps at a weight where the last rep is a challenge, add weight so that you can barely do 4 more reps, and then remove weight to a few pounds less than your original weight and crank out 7 more reps.  Repeat this for 3 sets. 

It's HARSH, but in a good way.  Like GVT only takes less time. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on April 03, 2012, 09:32:47 AM
Keep at it.  2 lbs a week is a solid rate of loss.  I recommend doing weight work.  It will do far more for your weight loss and fitness than riding the bike will.

Updates:

1) I have stopped posting on Fitocracy.  Thanks for all of the support there, but I just didn't have the time to update now that I'm working out 4-6 times a week and running more in the evenings.

2) I've found a really interesting new program that some of you may like to try.  It's called a 7-4-7 system.

You do 3 sets of an exercise, each set containing 7-4-7 reps.  You do 7 reps at a weight where the last rep is a challenge, add weight so that you can barely do 4 more reps, and then remove weight to a few pounds less than your original weight and crank out 7 more reps.  Repeat this for 3 sets. 

It's HARSH, but in a good way.  Like GVT only takes less time. 

7/4/7 sounds pretty good and a bit more saner for me to attempt than full on GVT.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on April 03, 2012, 09:41:02 AM
It's from the May 2012 issue of Men's Fitness if you want to find the source.  I'll see if I can find more about it on the web.

Here's a blurb, but it's full of popup ads.  (http://nicktumminello.com/2011/12/the-747-protocol-a-new-rep-scheme-for-new-muscle-gains/)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on April 04, 2012, 05:24:28 AM
To be honest, GVT probably isn't something one should be doing anyway unless you really need to shake things up.

I'm doing a different sort of volume training at the moment, that I actually think is more effective, though it is probably not a very good beginner program (too much work).  First, I focus almost soley on the proven compound lifts.  Deadlifts, Squats, Bench, Chins, One armed rows, Power Cleans and Overhand presses (sometimes just clean and presses).  Not really much else.  I try to maximize my volume for a minimum of 70% of my 1 rep max.  So if my max weight for one rep for a give exercise is 200 lbs, then I will try to max out my volume for 140 lbs and up...as much of that as possible up to 180 to 190 lbs of 3 to 5 rep sets.  And then just do as many god damn sets as I can manage.  When it starts to get too hard repping 180, then I back off to 170 and increase the reps.  Whatever keeps me working above that 70% threshold.  It seems to be really effective so far.  Lots of work with heavy weights.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on July 13, 2012, 06:23:19 AM
Arise!

Someone was talking to me about Insanity the other day (from the makers of P90X) saying that it involved a lot of plyometrics (which I love doing as a hangover from my competitive days). Has anyone tried the workout? Thoughts, opinions? Pros, cons?

I should add that I'm not actually thinking of doing it, I'm just curious to find out more and peoples opinions.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on July 13, 2012, 08:27:35 AM
To take this completely full circle - my wife wanted to get herself on something really structured in terms of both a diet plan and exercise routine - so I'm doing P90X with her for a bit.  Honestly, there's nothing really new here.  With the exception of yoga, it's different muscle groups for 60 minutes a day 6 days a week with a 50/30/20 (protein/carb/fats) diet.  I swapped out Kenpo to a 4-5 mile run to at least get some running in (also transitioning to a minimal shoe and recovering from a calf/ankle injury still).  

So we'll see how this goes.  So far, into the second week of workouts (first week of doing the diet), and it's not too bad at all.  Nothing really new here, and some of it is a bit silly because it's geared towards home as opposed to having access to a gym, but overall, I've certainly seen stupidier shit come across in the monthly men's mags.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: bhodi on July 13, 2012, 09:56:22 AM
Oh, Hi thread. Update time!

Still getting stronger, healthier, looking better, though haven't gained a whole lot of weight. At ~140. Haven't been eating enough or enough of the right things. Still. Several friends commented independently on my biceps which are visibly larger. Not a ton of change in my chest, abs. I am still working out Mon-Thur, though I end up generally missing at least a day. I missed the entirety of last week due the 4th and backslid two weeks. I recently had two PT sessions to get a routine for my lower back which is still giving me trouble from a years-old old climbing injury. This is what I'm doing 1-2x a week for it:

The bosu transfer is the absolute worst, so of course it's last. Plank on a bosu (half ball) and then go left, center, right, center on your elbows/arms. That's one. I did that on Tuesday.

The biggest change for the last month or two is that I've started tracking rest periods and scaling them down to keep the heart rate up.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on July 13, 2012, 10:33:24 AM
To take this completely full circle - my wife wanted to get herself on something really structured in terms of both a diet plan and exercise routine - so I'm doing this with her for a bit. 

Ah... come to think of it, it may well have been one of your Fitocracy updates that made me think about this again too.  :grin:

Can you give an example of what one of the workouts looks like?

Oh, Hi thread. Update time!

Well done. Had to look up what "Inch Worms" - interesting exercise. Not enough room in my gym for those (and I already get enough funny looks for doing dynamic stretching.) Might have a try of that Bosu plank with cross-transfer though.

My own update:

Lost a stack load of weight and am the lightest I've been in about 15 years (195lbs). Running's going well (knocked 2 mins off my 5km pb, nearly broke the 20 minute mark) and am currently in taper before a 100 mile race in two weeks.  Looking beyond that, I'm going to be taking most of August off and then going back to strength, speed and power work and learn how to lift heavy weights properly (deadlift, snatch, power clean).


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on July 13, 2012, 10:45:41 AM
To take this completely full circle - my wife wanted to get herself on something really structured in terms of both a diet plan and exercise routine - so I'm doing this with her for a bit.  

Ah... come to think of it, it may well have been one of your Fitocracy updates that made me think about this again too.  :grin:

Can you give an example of what one of the workouts looks like?

I actually have found myself in fair agreement with this girl and her reviews.  Here's her take on one of them.
http://azahorik.hubpages.com/hub/A-Review-of-P90X-Chest-and-Back


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Salamok on July 16, 2012, 09:02:31 AM
So for those who like to swim I have been having great success with a high resistance/high intensity swim workout.  Lost about 10 lbs total but have also gained muscle mass faster than I ever have in the pool.

This workout has been pretty good for me because my cardio and breathing just isn't good enough at the moment to handle distances over 200, plus I am not at this point attempting to work on this as my goal is weight loss first.  It also probably isn't going to improve my swimming technique (more like the opposite):

I mix up the order and change things up every few weeks but basically I do the following (as sprints/full speed):
100 free warm up.
200 fly kicks with fins
50 freestyle with fins
15 chinups using the diving block (pretty much like an assisted chinup)
200 backstroke kicks with fins
50 breast no fins
15 chinups using the diving block
200 breastroke kicks no fins
50 backstroke with fins
15 chinups using the diving block
200 freestyle kicks with fins
50 fly with fins
15 chinups using the diving block

Next is sprints interwoven with some water weights (http://www.amazon.com/Exervo-Fitness-Dumbbells-Maximum-Resistance/dp/B001W1Z3OE/ref=sr_1_5?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1342445777&sr=1-5&keywords=Exervo+Aqua+Fitness+Pool+Dumbbells), I only use 1 weight so I bastardized mine into a single mega weight (been upping it every 6 or 7 workouts).
25 fly/25 back no fins
15 dips/15 tricep pull downs (each arm)
25 fly/25 back no fins
15 dips/15 tricep pull downs (each arm)
25 fly/25 back no fins
15 dips/15 tricep pull downs (each arm)
25 fly/25 back no fins
15 dips/15 tricep pull downs (each arm)

I then pull on the aqua gloves and do 75 reps of a stationary/standing breastroke pull (very similar to using the butterfly press in the gym).

Lastly I finish with a 100 free cooldown.  

I started at 230lbs and after 2 months I am 10 lbs lighter and it's like the fat has been melting off from my extremities and slowly working inward.  At this point my arms, chest and legs are completely toned and it's down to the gut and love handles, both of which are showing improvement but needed the most work.  I think the next phase is adding 1 day a week in the gym to work biceps and shoulders (my biceps need some help keeping up with the tricep growth).  

Also it seems like the rowing machines are a great warmup in prep hitting the weights, for some reason no one ever uses these machines at my gym but after a 2000 meter row the blood was flowing nicely to all the areas I wanted to hit with the weights.

Once I lose a bit more gut I'll be working abs and obliques more as well but for now the fly & fly kicks are a pretty good core workout.

edit - I would like to note that the chinups/water weights and time spent swapping fins on and off are all the time I allow for catching my breath, other than that I do not have any breaks in the swim schedule that last more than 5 seconds or so.

edit2 - Oh yeah been doing this 4-5 days a week.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: MuffinMan on July 16, 2012, 10:54:32 AM
If you don't mind me asking, where are you swimming and how much does it cost? I've been thinking about training for a triathalon.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Salamok on July 16, 2012, 12:17:35 PM
If you don't mind me asking, where are you swimming and how much does it cost? I've been thinking about training for a triathalon.

Lifetime Fitness, it is expensive ($134/mo for the family, I think $65 for a single) because of all the kids facilities but worth it for me because the kid starts nagging me to go to the gym the second I pick her up, plus it has 5 lanes indoor and another 6 outside as well as separate water facilities for kids/water aerobics.

24 hour fitness where the Q used to be (just north of the Arboretum) has a good pool (5-6 lanes) and you can join there for under $30/mo for a single, costco sells a 2 year up front membership for $300 if you are committed.  The 24 hour fitness by UT isn't bad (3 lanes), my main problems with 24 hour fitness are that the water aerobics ppl tend to take over the pool from 5-7pm and after 9pm it turns into a bathhouse.

If you do not need coaching and are looking to do a big tri I would suggest Pure Austin Fitness as it allows you to swim in quarry lake to do some open water training and the few times I have looked I never see more than a few people in the entire lake.  

If you need coaching and/or don't want to fight kids/water arobics/old asian ladies then I have heard Nitro is good ($90/mo IIRC).


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on July 19, 2012, 04:13:09 AM
I actually have found myself in fair agreement with this girl and her reviews.  Here's her take on one of them.
http://azahorik.hubpages.com/hub/A-Review-of-P90X-Chest-and-Back

Been away for a few days so a little late saying cheers for the link - but cheers for the link.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: murdoc on July 19, 2012, 11:32:01 AM
Yeah, that link is great. Thanks!


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Salamok on July 31, 2012, 01:00:54 PM
So I was reading the BMR page on wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basal_metabolic_rate#Cardiovascular_implications) and in the cardiovascular section it hints at targeted training that can lower your resting heart rate and blood pressure while raising your BMR within 4 to 6 weeks.  It also mentions increased oxygen availability which is what really caught my eye. 

Quote
The anaerobic threshold is defined as the energy utilization level of heart rate exertion that occurs without oxygen during a standardized test with a specific protocol for accuracy of measurement,[citation needed] such as the Bruce Treadmill protocol (see Metabolic equivalent). With four to six weeks of targeted training the body systems can adapt to a higher perfusion of mitochondrial density for increased oxygen availability for the Krebs cycle, or tricarboxylic cycle, or the glycolitic cycle.[citation needed] This in turn leads to a lower resting heart rate, lower blood pressure, and increased resting or basal metabolic rate.

Unfortunately they do not provide any details on the "targeted training" anyone able to maybe enlighten me a bit, keeping in mind that I only understand 2 words in 3 of this section of the article.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: tazelbain on July 31, 2012, 01:33:48 PM
So did anyone get any results with P90X? my friend offered to lend me his copy.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on July 31, 2012, 01:59:03 PM
So I was reading the BMR page on wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basal_metabolic_rate#Cardiovascular_implications) and in the cardiovascular section it hints at targeted training that can lower your resting heart rate and blood pressure while raising your BMR within 4 to 6 weeks.  It also mentions increased oxygen availability which is what really caught my eye. 

Quote
The anaerobic threshold is defined as the energy utilization level of heart rate exertion that occurs without oxygen during a standardized test with a specific protocol for accuracy of measurement,[citation needed] such as the Bruce Treadmill protocol (see Metabolic equivalent). With four to six weeks of targeted training the body systems can adapt to a higher perfusion of mitochondrial density for increased oxygen availability for the Krebs cycle, or tricarboxylic cycle, or the glycolitic cycle.[citation needed] This in turn leads to a lower resting heart rate, lower blood pressure, and increased resting or basal metabolic rate.

Unfortunately they do not provide any details on the "targeted training" anyone able to maybe enlighten me a bit, keeping in mind that I only understand 2 words in 3 of this section of the article.

I'd link some articles for you but they make that section sound like it's in plain English. One short, simple answer is interval training.

My questions to you would be, what are you trying achieve and why?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on July 31, 2012, 02:08:04 PM
So did anyone get any results with P90X? my friend offered to lend me his copy.

I'm in the rest week of stage 1 right now, but because I suck, instead of doing yoga and light cardio, I'm doing runs all week.   So far on it, I've dropped about 3% BF and about 4 lbs


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Salamok on July 31, 2012, 02:12:01 PM
I'd link some articles for you but they make that section sound like it's in plain English. One short, simple answer is interval training.

My questions to you would be, what are you trying achieve and why?

Better oxygen efficiency for swimming.  I realize I could do swimming by itself as it is an excellent means to this end, the article makes it sound like there is an exercise specifically targeted at this though.

Not really worried about it at the moment but in another 15 lbs or so when I switch from a power workout to an endurance one I will be.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on July 31, 2012, 04:13:48 PM
My feeling is that what they're referring to is HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training) which can mirror the benefits of more LSD based endurance training (Long Slow Distance - not Lysergic acid diethylamide  :grin: ) but uses a different mechanism to do so (don't ask how unless you really want to hear about the differences between calcium–calmodulin kinase and adenosine monophosphate kinase). The studies done by Izumi Tabata back in 1996 (and copious amounts of subsequent research) have suggested that HIIT can increase VO2Max and endurance capability by equivalent amounts to standard endurance training in as little as 6 weeks - so that would make sense.

Couple of points though: firstly, 6 weeks was under a rigorously controlled test condition with the appropriate means to measure power output and VO2Max etc. You probably won't have that so you have to go by feel and you may not get the exact results in exactly the same time period.

Secondly, if it's anything like running then a lot will affect your oxygen efficiency - not just fitness, strength and endurance but also technique. In running we call it "running economy" and a quick chat with my triathlete friends tells me it's referred to as "swimming efficiency" (i.e. body position, stroke length etc) These can be improved through drills, practice etc. You essentially get more bang for your buck - greater return on the power expended - without necessarily improving your fitness. Sports are skills and can be taught.

Lastly, I'd also say that it's not to early to start working on some of this now. If you start doing some strength endurance sessions and interval sessions (ie circuits) then you can build strength, power, endurance and burn calories all at the same time. Win!  :drill:  Throw in some circuit sessions (5 sets of 5 exercises) which will take maybe 20 minutes max if you do it without rest interval and make it good cardio as well as good strength/power. Don't forget plyometrics too (but ease into them if you're not used to it because they can really hurt if you go too hard at first).





Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Salamok on August 01, 2012, 01:12:38 AM
I am a fairly decent swimmer (ie ex-competitive) and my technique is better than most (if not all) of the triathletes I have encountered who have no previous exposure to swimming other than being a triathlete.

That said my current workout is intentionally inefficient with the goal of building muscle mass and power.   This routine has me losing 4 lbs a month (going in to month 4 now) while building some nice muscle mass. It certainly involves intervals, high intensity and some pretty good resistance.  I'm just looking forward 2-3 months for when my gut is no longer in the way of my diaphragm and I can hopefully start increasing my distances w/o having to hyperventilate every 100 meters.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on August 01, 2012, 03:17:53 AM
One thing I'd suggest that you might add into the mix at this point, looking over your workout a few posts back, is adding some cross-training cardio work in at this point. You mentioned that you did a bit of rowing as a warm-up but if you started including rowing (or cycling or running) interval sessions, you'll build strength, cardio endurance and, based on what I was researching last week (about how swimmers retain more body fat than runners/cyclists even if they burn more calories (http://www.sportsci.org/news/compeat/fat.html)), you might torch even more fat. The downside is the lack of specificity but would that be a real problem at this stage for you?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: brellium on August 01, 2012, 04:56:54 AM
What I found worked well was the routine I had (which I'm the process of restarting).

100 push ups,
100 sit ups,
100 leg lifts,
100 lateral leg lifts (50 each side),
100 back lifts laying on the stomach (mainly to stretch out the back),
100 squats,
100 scissor kicks,
100 outward kicks (side kicks) while prone (50 each leg)
Followed by a 15 minute stretch routine.

With the 1500 calorie diet and 5-7 hours of Tae Kwon Do and kick boxing I was losing about 10lbs a month.

For those with time constraints I've found that http://www.warriorxfit.com/ works well, the routines are changed daily with new exercises.  You can repeat the segments as necessary adjusting for additional time you may find.

*edit, I also did a few exercises with resistance bands for upper body which I forgot


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Salamok on August 01, 2012, 09:41:48 AM
One thing I'd suggest that you might add into the mix at this point, looking over your workout a few posts back, is adding some cross-training cardio work in at this point. You mentioned that you did a bit of rowing as a warm-up but if you started including rowing (or cycling or running) interval sessions, you'll build strength, cardio endurance and, based on what I was researching last week (about how swimmers retain more body fat than runners/cyclists even if they burn more calories (http://www.sportsci.org/news/compeat/fat.html)), you might torch even more fat. The downside is the lack of specificity but would that be a real problem at this stage for you?

I may up my once a week row from a 10 minute warmup to a 30 minute interval workout, the article is pretty inconclusive other than stating that statistically swimmers retain higher body fat %.  My guess is that the body is reacting to prolonged periods in cool water by retaining some insulation.  

With all previous swim workouts I have experienced the ravenous hunger associated with swimming but for some reason this time around my appetite has actually dropped.  I certainly have not gone on a diet or anything but being occupied at the gym from 6pm to 9pm (hour with the kid, 75 minute workout, 15min hot tub/sauna) does tend to cut into what was normally my prime feeding time.  Also the current workout with the heavy use of fins, chinups, 130lbs tricep pulldowns and dips, feels more like a weight lifting routine than anything I have done before.

Who knows as we head into winter I may even move my entire workout out of the pool but I would be fine with a 10-12% body fat and personally do not think 7% is desirable.  So far I have been hesitant to do much out of the water work as swimming at 220lbs has very little risk of injury compared to running and cycling just takes up too much time.

@brellium - I couldn't do a quarter of that, that sounds like a workout for someone who is already in good shape.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: brellium on August 01, 2012, 08:40:17 PM
@brellium - I couldn't do a quarter of that, that sounds like a workout for someone who is already in good shape.
You're telling me, it took 4 months to build the regimen to that level, mainly for the first month I focused on my core and due to that I found I couldn't manage any push-ups when I tried a month later (core was too sore to stay in the prone position to do any).

I would recommend registering at warrior x-fit and following that daily the routine is just 20 minutes, something that should be easy to do in the morning (so long as you don't hit that snooze button, when the alarm goes off).


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Mosesandstick on August 05, 2012, 01:01:48 PM
Anyone have any thoughts/experiences with medicine balls? Changed gym recently and feel like trying new stuff out. Mainly looking to firm up my core.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Salamok on August 05, 2012, 02:10:56 PM
@DraconionOne - So back on the subject of:
Quote
With four to six weeks of targeted training the body systems can adapt to a higher perfusion of mitochondrial density for increased oxygen availability for the Krebs cycle

I was thinking maybe they were hinting at something along the lines of a breath trainer (http://www.swimoutlet.com/product_p/25403.htm).


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on August 06, 2012, 01:27:01 AM
Anyone have any thoughts/experiences with medicine balls? Changed gym recently and feel like trying new stuff out. Mainly looking to firm up my core.

The best way to firm up your core is to avoid most of the exercises that seem logically geared towards firming up your core.  No really!  Some of those movements are even downright bad for your spine.

If you want to do some targeted ab work (like simple crunches or something) then go for it...but some of the best ab exercises are as follows:

-Deadlifts
-Squats (particularly front squats)
-Overhead pressing of any variety (bonus points for clean and jerks, which also involve some element of front squatting if you do it right)
-Pull/Chin ups.  Lat pulldowns are okay, but don't require quite the same amount of spine stabilization.

Not surprisingly, these are also excellent exercises for other reasons as well.  The reason they work so well for your core is because they all require you to stabilize those muscles (and it is stabilization, not flexion, that you really want to work) under a significant amount of weight. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on August 06, 2012, 04:49:34 AM
@DraconionOne - So back on the subject of:
Quote
With four to six weeks of targeted training the body systems can adapt to a higher perfusion of mitochondrial density for increased oxygen availability for the Krebs cycle

I was thinking maybe they were hinting at something along the lines of a breath trainer (http://www.swimoutlet.com/product_p/25403.htm).

I'm not sure that's right. Powerbreathe is a training tool to aid "Inspiratory Muscle Training" which is designed to improve the breathing process and affects something called the metaboreflex (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10199868). Basically - when breathing muscles are worked hard (eg during strenuous exercise), oxygen gets diverted away from limbs and to the breathing muscles. So, the theory goes, directly training the breathing muscles increases the load at which the metaboreflex kicks in. What it doesn't do, which the BMR article was talking about, is affect VO2Max or mitochondrial density.

Jury's still out on Powerbreathe for me - most of the research I've found has all been carried out by the woman who commercialised the product. Having said that, she has addressed that very issue in a blog of her own (http://blog.breathestrong.com/2011/08/clearing-air-some-myths-about-breathing.html) and seems quite reasonable, although I'd like to see some more independent research about the benefits for myself.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on August 06, 2012, 05:15:24 AM
Anyone have any thoughts/experiences with medicine balls? Changed gym recently and feel like trying new stuff out. Mainly looking to firm up my core.

Very useful for plyometric work/dynamic resistance work, especially for sports training. Used it in both track & field training (sit ups with ball where you throw it to a partner at the top of the sit-up, and then catch it again before the lowering phase) and rugby training (side twists and throwing it to partners either side.) Be careful if you don't have a partner as bouncing it off a wall isn't as controlled and those things can hurt if you get one in the face.  :awesome_for_real:

Also, using a medicine ball instead of dumb-bells in complex exercises (e.g. forward lunge with overhead raise) will change the stress on target muscles and can help with stabilisers as well as working muscles through slightly different ranges of movement.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: NowhereMan on August 06, 2012, 12:58:36 PM
In other news I'm getting to discover that paying attention to your diet actually does matter, having successfully lost a few kilos and basically spending the last year hovering about the same point with a small increase in my lifts. The Livestrong MyPlate tool on their site is really useful and has made calorie tracking far less intimidating. My only problem now is when I go out to a restaurant to eat and have to try and make up my meal from what they've got on the site.

I assume most restaurants would give you weird looks if you asked them how many calories and how many grams of protein there are in any of their dishes.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on August 06, 2012, 01:16:26 PM
Medicine balls are good for throwing around or as something to hold while you do bodyweight exercises, such as jump-squats. The best medicine ball exercises in my view tend to require a partner. Using one for chest-passes between two of you is a decent warm up exercise, or you can have one person lying on the ground who takes the ball over their head and then throws it to a partner while sitting up. You can use medicine balls for twisting exercises on a roman chair, but I'm not massively keen on those myself.

Anyone have any thoughts/experiences with medicine balls? Changed gym recently and feel like trying new stuff out. Mainly looking to firm up my core.

The best way to firm up your core is to avoid most of the exercises that seem logically geared towards firming up your core.  No really!  Some of those movements are even downright bad for your spine.

If you want to do some targeted ab work (like simple crunches or something) then go for it...but some of the best ab exercises are as follows:

-Deadlifts
-Squats (particularly front squats)
-Overhead pressing of any variety (bonus points for clean and jerks, which also involve some element of front squatting if you do it right)
-Pull/Chin ups.  Lat pulldowns are okay, but don't require quite the same amount of spine stabilization.

Not surprisingly, these are also excellent exercises for other reasons as well.  The reason they work so well for your core is because they all require you to stabilize those muscles (and it is stabilization, not flexion, that you really want to work) under a significant amount of weight. 

He said medicine balls, not exercise balls. Although with respect to the latter I agree with everything you say. I'd also add that I like using them with dumbbells or kettlebells. Sitting on an exercise ball doing dumbbell shoulder press, or using one under your shoulders, with feet on the floor, and doing dumbbell press will both place a dynamic strength requirement on your core. One handed kettlebell presses sitting on the ball are also decent, doing one side at a time, alternating. I wouldn't use balls for much else really. The half-balls that you can stand on are


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: brellium on August 13, 2012, 01:09:49 AM
In other news I'm getting to discover that paying attention to your diet actually does matter, having successfully lost a few kilos and basically spending the last year hovering about the same point with a small increase in my lifts. The Livestrong MyPlate tool on their site is really useful and has made calorie tracking far less intimidating. My only problem now is when I go out to a restaurant to eat and have to try and make up my meal from what they've got on the site.

I assume most restaurants would give you weird looks if you asked them how many calories and how many grams of protein there are in any of their dishes.
I have the app, it's a nice little tool.

http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/calorie-tracker-livestrong.com/id295305241?mt=8


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: lamaros on August 14, 2012, 01:25:10 AM
Not really as involved as what you're all doing in here, but I ran the Sydney City 2 Surf on Sunday, which is very likely the longest distance I've ever ran. Was surprised by how much I enjoyed it as previously I've only really liked competitive sports (and bike riding) for exercise.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on August 14, 2012, 04:44:23 AM
Excellent, well done. Just watched the video, that's a fuck load of people! Bet it was a great atmosphere.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on August 14, 2012, 06:42:10 AM
That's awesome - congrats lamaros!


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on September 19, 2012, 04:32:55 AM
Because I think this thread shouldn't ever be off page 1, I will herewith post some mindless gym observations:

- Keep it up, fat guy.  You're not nearly as fat as you were a year ago.

- Some of you people really, really need to start wearing deodorant.  Do you have any inkling of how powerfully terrible you smell?  I don't know if it is some kind of cultural thing or something, but surely there is something you can do about it.  Maybe rub a dead squirrel over that shit, it'd probably help.  And they guy that also smells like sweaty man ass at the same time?  Fuck.

- Giant Tall Guy - you are naturally strong because of your enormous size, but you aren't helping your cause with those fake squats you are doing.  We can all see that you have five plates on each side, and that is impressive...but you are in the smith rack, and you are only slightly bending your knees.  I mean, maybe only like 30 degrees or something.  Pretty sure I can do that.  Why don't you just do real squats?  I bet you'd be good at them.

- All the regular sized guys who think they can bench press 2 plates on each side.  I know you actually can't.  You know it.  Everybody watching you knows it.  The only reason we are even watching is to see if you need an emergency spot, or to see how far you actually manage to bend your elbows before your spotter takes 70% of the weight off while you bullshit your way through 3 reps.  Who are you trying to fool anyway?  WAIT A MINUTE YOU ARE NOT ACTUALLY GOING TO PUT A COUPLE OF 10s ON AS WELL ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?  Idiots.

- Steroid Guy - yes, you look impressive.  Except for your scrawny chicken legs, but whatever.  But no, your triceps and back muscles are not any bigger than there were 40 seconds ago when you last flexed for the mirror.  And yes, I know you are juicing, because your workout routine is fairly retarded and only works because of what is obviously flowing through your system.  You aren't even really particularly strong.  Shit, I can't help but notice that I am slightly stronger than you in most of the non-bro lifts.  Even so, yeah, you are pretty big, and I wish I could match some of that lifting intensity.  But can I ask you why you wear four layers of clothing, only to strip off each layer in order reveal slightly increased amounts of your amazingness?  I think I just answered my own question.  Still, you seem alright, Steroid Guy.  Now, hook me up with your dealer already.

- Ugly cougar-aged lady with the amazing rack and ass.  Why do you have to be so ugly?  It makes me feels ashamed about admiring your tits so much.

- Really skinny guy - drop those 6kg dumbells your are curling with and get thee to an all-you-can-eat buffet.

- Curling guy - seriously, weren't you here doing the same curls you were doing yesterday and the day before?  Granted, your biceps are bigger than mine (which is no great accomplishment), but I'm starting to wonder if you are even capable of performing other movements.  Are you doing some kind of biceps rehab due to an unfortunate land mine injury or something?  Fool.  You're all sizzle and no steak.

- My favorite new exercise - Forward Leaning Gravity Assisted Douchebag Cable Chest Pushdowns.  This is like doing cable crossover chest flys (or whatever) in a standing position, but where you lean forward as much as possible so that Newtonian Physics take over.  Runner up favorite new exercise: Whatever it's called when you use those gymnastics rings on the pull up bar, and just aimlessly swing and rotate and hang upside down.  What the fuck muscle are you working?  Your pussy?

That is all for now.  If you resemble any of the above, I'm just having some fun.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on September 19, 2012, 05:17:17 AM
Good list - which one are you?   :why_so_serious:

My favourite guy in the gym at the moment is the one who pulls his shirt up to admire his abs in the mirror every 5 fucking minutes.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on September 19, 2012, 05:55:21 AM
Hmm, which one am I...good question.  I'm not any of the above, but that doesn't mean I don't fit into a category somewhere.  I am probably the slightly too old creeper guy who needs to stop eye-fucking all the young hot chicks.  But come on, I'm only human!  And it's certainly not my fault that one chick looks just like Olivia Wilde.

But anyway, I suppose I am the person that puts the lie to the popular belief that "don't worry about what you look like at the gym, nobody cares"...because to be honest, if you are an interesting person in any way when it comes to your gym presence, you better believe I'm observing.  That's half the fun of going to the gym.  I am quite sure I am not the only one.



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on September 19, 2012, 08:41:59 AM
Speaking of stench though - anyone got any recommendations for some of my older gym clothes other than fire?  I mean, I'll wash this shit, pull it out of the dryer and it'll be smelling like it's made of a pure bouquet of spring flowers and the second a touch of sweat hits it it turns into cat piss.



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on September 19, 2012, 09:10:55 AM
Hmm, which one am I...good question.  I'm not any of the above, but that doesn't mean I don't fit into a category somewhere.  I am probably the slightly too old creeper guy who needs to stop eye-fucking all the young hot chicks.  But come on, I'm only human!  And it's certainly not my fault that one chick looks just like Olivia Wilde.

But anyway, I suppose I am the person that puts the lie to the popular belief that "don't worry about what you look like at the gym, nobody cares"...because to be honest, if you are an interesting person in any way when it comes to your gym presence, you better believe I'm observing.  That's half the fun of going to the gym.  I am quite sure I am not the only one.

I tend to look at the floor between sets.  It helps me keep my rage up while simultaneously avoiding creeper-dom.

Working out in a university facility is torture.  I'm surrounded by athletic 20-something women... half of them are my students. 

"Look at the floor.  Look at the floor.  Look at the floor, asshole"  is my mantra. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Merusk on September 19, 2012, 09:38:22 AM
Dear Old - possibly gay - Guy:

Please stop running in to the changing area from the showers as you have for the last 2 weeks.  You're naked so you're not uncomfortable with yourself.  I know you're only running to trip our hunter instincts and get eyes on you.  There's only 3 of us in the room at 6:30am and it's always the same 3. We're not interested.   I'm tired of my instincts making me look and catching glimpses of your shaved sack.

Thanks.

On the upside clanging, grunting, weight-dropping douche stopped coming in the morning. He must've finally realized that the few women there from 5-6:15 weren't interested.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: RhyssaFireheart on September 19, 2012, 11:32:56 AM
What is it about free weights that makes guys think grunting obnoxiously loud and dropping the weights is a good thing?  Monday night there were a few guys that were just annoying with the "HUNNNGH!" grunts while lifting.  And then the clang when they dropped the weights.  Added to the hogging some machines whilst off gossiping with their bros (by hogging, I mean leaving all the stuff on/at the machine and being no where in sight) and my workout that evening wasn't as complete as I would have liked it to be.

Still, they were better than the couple with the big headphones that were tag-teaming the machines that work your hamstrings.  Not just one machine, mind you, but two different ones - the Nautilus style type where you lay on your stomach and then the Freemotion machine where you stand up.  Guy would be doing one machine and girl the other, then they'd switch - over and over again.  It's there something to doing multiple sets (like 5+) to work the same muscle group?

And for all the women walking around in the volleyball style panty shorts - yeah.  I'll be honest, I'm jealous and wish I looked like that, which is why I'm the fat chick at the gym working out.  But honestly - stop sauntering around in a group occasionally and randomly doing sets.  Either workout or go to a bar to show off, but right now you're just annoying and getting in the way.  Plus I want to use that machine, so move bitch.

Taking a week and a half off for vacation was nice, because I had my evenings back, but I actually missed working out.  And I can feel it, since I ache extra-specially this morning.  Still, that's a good thing and I'm starting to feel a bit of muscle hiding under all this fat. :)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on September 19, 2012, 11:55:10 AM
What is it about free weights that makes guys think grunting obnoxiously loud and dropping the weights is a good thing? 

Lifting heavy is very intense, particularly if you're doing it to failure.  I often yell/grunt on my last two reps and will get so ATP depleted that my arms fail after my last rep.  It's VERY painful to lift this way but it yields great results.  The yelling is a result of the pain involved and the rage required to get out an extra rep or two.  Dropping weights isn't something I recommend, but happens when your muscles just give up (ever see runners crash at the end of a race?  It's like that).

It is annoying... but part of the program for those of us that take lifting seriously.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Merusk on September 19, 2012, 12:38:40 PM
^^  This I understand and wouldn't bitch about.

Mr. Douche?  He was cranking 60#-80# for 20ish reps on the cables and grunting with each rep.   That he never worked-up much of a sweat and ALWAYS ended with a drop/clang was indicative of exactly why he was doing it.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on September 19, 2012, 04:41:31 PM
What is it about free weights that makes guys think grunting obnoxiously loud and dropping the weights is a good thing?

Lifting heavy is very intense, particularly if you're doing it to failure.  I often yell/grunt on my last two reps and will get so ATP depleted that my arms fail after my last rep.  It's VERY painful to lift this way but it yields great results.  The yelling is a result of the pain involved and the rage required to get out an extra rep or two.  Dropping weights isn't something I recommend, but happens when your muscles just give up (ever see runners crash at the end of a race?  It's like that).

It is annoying... but part of the program for those of us that take lifting seriously.

Seconding this. It's a bit of a dilemma because it is annoying, but I know I do it when I'm maxing; it's often hard not to yell out when you're putting everything into a big lift. Also to add, as far as dropping weights goes, if you're doing heavy olympic lifting you ideally drop the weights after each lift, since the concentric (lowering) portion of the lift isn't at all safe. That said, odds are that you're not at an olympic/powerlifting gym and the guys crashing and grunting are douches. If they're throwing plates or dumbbells on the floor and grunting while doing repetitious work, they're douches. If they're doing 1-3 rep sets and yelling on the last one, that's probably kosher.

Still, they were better than the couple with the big headphones that were tag-teaming the machines that work your hamstrings.  Not just one machine, mind you, but two different ones - the Nautilus style type where you lay on your stomach and then the Freemotion machine where you stand up.  Guy would be doing one machine and girl the other, then they'd switch - over and over again.  It's there something to doing multiple sets (like 5+) to work the same muscle group?

Without getting too technical, in general doing more sets with higher weight for fewer reps is better for developing strength, while doing fewer sets with more reps is better for developing muscle mass. I can't speak for people I don't know, but among the guys I train with (mostly powerlifters, olympic lifters and american football players) most people are trying to get strong, and will do something like 7-10 sets of 2-4 reps on their lifts.

Taking a week and a half off for vacation was nice, because I had my evenings back, but I actually missed working out.  And I can feel it, since I ache extra-specially this morning.  Still, that's a good thing and I'm starting to feel a bit of muscle hiding under all this fat. :)


Keep going, you'll get there!


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Trippy on September 19, 2012, 04:53:48 PM
- Curling guy - seriously, weren't you here doing the same curls you were doing yesterday and the day before?  Granted, your biceps are bigger than mine (which is no great accomplishment), but I'm starting to wonder if you are even capable of performing other movements.  Are you doing some kind of biceps rehab due to an unfortunate land mine injury or something?  Fool.  You're all sizzle and no steak.
Haha, that's a good one. I used to semi-resemble that remark in my youth since I hated working on my triceps -- biceps are so much easier!

Quote
- My favorite new exercise - Forward Leaning Gravity Assisted Douchebag Cable Chest Pushdowns.  This is like doing cable crossover chest flys (or whatever) in a standing position, but where you lean forward as much as possible so that Newtonian Physics take over.
That's actually might not be so bad if you are intentionally trying to work on your core at the same time.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on September 20, 2012, 12:47:25 AM
Come on Trippy, we both know the kind of guy I am talking about, and he isn't working on his core.  Most people don't even know what their core actually is.

Grunting:  Fine as long as you aren't exaggerating or just being a douche (e.g. triceps cable pushdowns rarely or never require grunting).

Clanging:  Only for Olympic lifts or in certain cases where you're working to failure.  In short, nobody at my gym.  I think I am the only one I have ever seen doing any sort of Olympic lifts at my gym (cleans, cleans and presses), and I don't even clang those because we don't have bumper plates.   My deads clang a little, but that is sorta unavoidable. Steroid Guy likes to clang the Hammer Strength chest press for some reason.  Pretty sure it is a signal to everybody else saying "I just fucking killed this set and WILL YOU JUST LOOK AT MY GORGEOUS PECS!"

Another person I need to add to my list:  Gross Old Man.  This is not just any one guy, it is a all old men in general who frequent the gym.  Only another man can truly appreciate Gross Old Man, because he only reveals his splendor in the changing room.  And by splendor, I mean ballsack.  Seriously, old man, nobody wants to see that shit.  I know you are proud of your body and stuff, but in truth you have little reason to be.  You are disgusting to behold.  I'm not sure who it was who ever said that the human body is a beautiful thing, because in my experience, that proves false in at least 99.7% of cases.  And tell me, Gross Old Man, why in hell do you insist on grabbing one of the bath towels, emptying half a can of baby powder into it, and slamming that thing repeatedly into your sack?  Just what the fuck is that all about, exactly?  Not only does the sight make me want to puke, but you seriously just got baby powder everywhere.  I want to punch you in the face.  And as if it weren't bad enough, as if your base nudity and powder-sack-slapping wasn't more than I can already handle, your behavior in the steam room...fuck.  It was expected that you would leave it all hanging out in spread-eagle fashion, but really, the steam room is not the best place for your stretching exercises.  So gross.  Why are you so hairy, anyway?  Did your mom fuck an orangutan?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on September 20, 2012, 09:11:02 AM
Another person I need to add to my list:  Gross Old Man. 

At what age is the gym off limits? 

I like seeing old people at the gym.  It means that they haven't given up. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Merusk on September 20, 2012, 10:52:06 AM
The issue isn't the age, it's the display, as delineated in the entry.   He should have called it Pervy or Lecherous or "Gratuitously Naked" old man.  And it's always old men, never young ones. Something I don't quite get.

Older folks at the gym on a whole being ok?  You bet, makes me feel good knowing I won't look out of place in 20 years.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on September 20, 2012, 11:31:43 AM
The issue isn't the age, it's the display, as delineated in the entry.   He should have called it Pervy or Lecherous or "Gratuitously Naked" old man.  And it's always old men, never young ones. Something I don't quite get.

Older folks at the gym on a whole being ok?  You bet, makes me feel good knowing I won't look out of place in 20 years.

Yeah, this.  Older folks working out is totally cool.  And don't worry Nebu, I think you probably got at least 15 years before you'll start showing your ballsack to everyone.

(I am pushing 40 myself, so it's not like you're tons older than me)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on September 21, 2012, 04:43:20 AM
Speaking of stench though - anyone got any recommendations for some of my older gym clothes other than fire?  I mean, I'll wash this shit, pull it out of the dryer and it'll be smelling like it's made of a pure bouquet of spring flowers and the second a touch of sweat hits it it turns into cat piss.

Right, so - looks like this is a runners only issue then   :awesome_for_real:

Two things I recommend if you can find US equivalents. First is some kind of specific Sports Wash* (I use Halo Sports Wash (http://www.tesco.com/groceries/Product/Details/?id=270802583)) and the second is anything you might use to wash nappies/diapers. I use Napisan (http://www.tesco.com/groceries/Product/Details/?id=255296892).

For really stubborn stench (you know, the type you get after running for 24 hours!  :grin:) I leave the offending items to soak for several hours in warm water mixed with one of the above.

I have also read that vinegar will work but haven't quite got around to trying that yet.

*I have no idea if the sports wash is actually any different from using a non-bio washing detergent but as the cost is the same, I'm not too bothered.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on September 21, 2012, 04:49:45 AM
Why are you so hairy, anyway?  Did your mom fuck an orangutan?

Fuck. You.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on September 21, 2012, 05:16:07 AM
Why are you so hairy, anyway?  Did your mom fuck an orangutan?

Fuck. You.

 :grin:

None of the above is personal, by the way.  It all contributes to making my gym visits more interesting and enjoyable.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on September 21, 2012, 05:35:24 AM
None of the above is personal, by the way.  It all contributes to making my gym visits more interesting and enjoyable.

Yeah - I could have made that green text but where's the fun in that?  :why_so_serious: (My personal hang-ups about how hairy I am and the social stigma attached to being a hairy male are not something I'm willing to go into here.)

Personally, I want to go to Nebu's gym.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Merusk on September 21, 2012, 06:29:17 AM
Speaking of stench though - anyone got any recommendations for some of my older gym clothes other than fire?  I mean, I'll wash this shit, pull it out of the dryer and it'll be smelling like it's made of a pure bouquet of spring flowers and the second a touch of sweat hits it it turns into cat piss.

Right, so - looks like this is a runners only issue then   :awesome_for_real:

Two things I recommend if you can find US equivalents. First is some kind of specific Sports Wash* (I use Halo Sports Wash (http://www.tesco.com/groceries/Product/Details/?id=270802583)) and the second is anything you might use to wash nappies/diapers. I use Napisan (http://www.tesco.com/groceries/Product/Details/?id=255296892).

For really stubborn stench (you know, the type you get after running for 24 hours!  :grin:) I leave the offending items to soak for several hours in warm water mixed with one of the above.

I have also read that vinegar will work but haven't quite got around to trying that yet.

*I have no idea if the sports wash is actually any different from using a non-bio washing detergent but as the cost is the same, I'm not too bothered.

Perfumes, etc in detergents don't remove smell they just cover it up.  You need something that'll actually remove the oil and sweat that's sat around and set in to the clothes which is what the soap part is supposed to do but doesn't quite get since it's formulated for normal everyday body dirt, not exercise staining.  Chances are that stink is coming from the crotch and underarm  areas of your clothes - the two places most prone to absorbing sweat and oil during a workout.

Vinegar in the rinse cycle works for me.  The stuff Drac linked should work as well and there's a few other suggestions on LiveStrong (http://www.livestrong.com/article/173483-how-do-i-get-the-smell-out-of-my-gym-clothes/)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on September 21, 2012, 06:37:50 AM
None of the above is personal, by the way.  It all contributes to making my gym visits more interesting and enjoyable.

Yeah - I could have made that green text but where's the fun in that?  :why_so_serious: (My personal hang-ups about how hairy I am and the social stigma attached to being a hairy male are not something I'm willing to go into here.)

Personally, I want to go to Nebu's gym.

Yeah, Nebu's gym sounds like paradise.  I would probably never look at the floor.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Yoru on September 21, 2012, 07:42:03 AM
I, too, would prefer Nebu's gym.

My current gym adjoins a hotel, so it's half geriatrics on vacation and half roided-out guidos flexing their pecs in the mirror. There's a couple of us normal workaday dudes and middle-aged moms just trying to stay in shape.

We do occasionally get a visit from a Little Miss Makeup - the sort of girl who goes to the gym in an inch of foundation, hot pink lipstick, designer athletic duds and has a $50 manicure. She'll sit on the upright bench and curl 1kg weights for twenty minutes or maybe walk slowly on the elliptical.

Inevitably, whenever there's one of those down in the free-weight area, all the guidos form a kind of cloud around her and do their own curls or flies with the largest weights they can manage. I liken it to an electron cloud, with the alpha guidos forming the innermost shell and moving out from there.

The nice thing is that the cloud effect usually frees up the squat rack, which they often occupy to do barbell bicep curls.

Also, maybe it's just southern Europe, but pretty much all the guys go about bare-sacked in the changing room here. I prefer to swap boxers in a swift and efficient manner rather than air out my nuts in front of strangers. Also, I have A/C at home, so I can perform any necessary ball-chillery in private.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on September 21, 2012, 07:57:41 AM
Also, maybe it's just southern Europe, but pretty much all the guys go about bare-sacked in the changing room here. I prefer to swap boxers in a swift and efficient manner rather than air out my nuts in front of strangers.

There's a reason Douglas Adams advised never to travel without your towel.

Most of the weights guys in my gym never bother having a shower. They come in wearing trackie bums, t-shirt and baseball cap, do their "workout" and then leave again. I've seen a couple come in and workout wearing their jeans.  Then again, it's not exactly the most affluent area nor is it the most exclusive gym.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Yoru on September 21, 2012, 01:21:42 PM
I don't shower at my gym, but I live literally 2 minutes' walk from it. I prefer to shower at home so I don't have to lug a showering towel plus toiletries around.

I usually go straight from the office to the gym to cut down on the temptation to plunk my ass in a chair and play video games dick around on the internet use the computer for legitimate and productive things. As a result, I usually just walk home in my sweaty gym garb.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on September 21, 2012, 02:00:46 PM
Speaking of stench though - anyone got any recommendations for some of my older gym clothes other than fire?  I mean, I'll wash this shit, pull it out of the dryer and it'll be smelling like it's made of a pure bouquet of spring flowers and the second a touch of sweat hits it it turns into cat piss.

Right, so - looks like this is a runners only issue then   :awesome_for_real:

Two things I recommend if you can find US equivalents. First is some kind of specific Sports Wash* (I use Halo Sports Wash (http://www.tesco.com/groceries/Product/Details/?id=270802583)) and the second is anything you might use to wash nappies/diapers. I use Napisan (http://www.tesco.com/groceries/Product/Details/?id=255296892).

For really stubborn stench (you know, the type you get after running for 24 hours!  :grin:) I leave the offending items to soak for several hours in warm water mixed with one of the above.

I have also read that vinegar will work but haven't quite got around to trying that yet.

*I have no idea if the sports wash is actually any different from using a non-bio washing detergent but as the cost is the same, I'm not too bothered.

Perfumes, etc in detergents don't remove smell they just cover it up.  You need something that'll actually remove the oil and sweat that's sat around and set in to the clothes which is what the soap part is supposed to do but doesn't quite get since it's formulated for normal everyday body dirt, not exercise staining.  Chances are that stink is coming from the crotch and underarm  areas of your clothes - the two places most prone to absorbing sweat and oil during a workout.

Vinegar in the rinse cycle works for me.  The stuff Drac linked should work as well and there's a few other suggestions on LiveStrong (http://www.livestrong.com/article/173483-how-do-i-get-the-smell-out-of-my-gym-clothes/)

Yah, I've tried a few different sports washes with not a lot of success -  (Win and SportSuds).  I may give things a good soak overnight in something and see how that helps.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on September 24, 2012, 12:22:42 AM
It's one thing to display sack whilst changing and/or moving from one area to another.  I mean, I'm sure it will make some people uncomfortable, but whatever.

It's quite another to prop your leg up on something and blow dry your nutbag in full view of everybody.  Or the aforementioned stretching exercises in the steam room.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: bhodi on September 25, 2012, 06:55:30 PM
It's one thing to display sack whilst changing and/or moving from one area to another.  I mean, I'm sure it will make some people uncomfortable, but whatever.

It's quite another to prop your leg up on something and blow dry your nutbag in full view of everybody.  Or the aforementioned stretching exercises in the steam room.

Seriously. I think old men have the monopoly on "one leg up on the bench" maneuvers. I really don't need to watch you furiously saw a towel between your legs, grandpa, go not care somewhere else.

We have one awesome-to-watch roided guy at the gym, he does the grunting, standing around, trying to chat up girls, dropping weights, everything on the sterotypical checklist. He also has "Mass" tattooed on one bicep and "Power" on the other. We call him the mass power guy.

FWIW, I'm the skinny dude doing 6kg presses. My workout partners are my roommate who's the fat guy getting skinnier and the 40 year old who can't stop staring at women. He'll literally stop in the middle of a conversation if someone walks by. To be fair, those yoga pants are really distracting. But sorry, they aren't looking to get hit on at the gym. Except for maybe that one woman wearing lipstick.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: proudft on September 25, 2012, 07:03:27 PM
I'm just curious as to what age that nudity thing kicks in.  I'm starting to get worried for myself.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Der Helm on September 25, 2012, 07:25:16 PM
Last t-Shirts I bought were 3 or 4XL but yesterday I tried an old XXL shirt on I had not worn in years and it did fit.  WTF.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: RhyssaFireheart on September 25, 2012, 08:19:18 PM
Last t-Shirts I bought were 3 or 4XL but yesterday I tried an old XXL shirt on I had not worn in years and it did fit.  WTF.  :awesome_for_real:
Congrats!


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on September 25, 2012, 08:41:36 PM
Last t-Shirts I bought were 3 or 4XL but yesterday I tried an old XXL shirt on I had not worn in years and it did fit.  WTF.  :awesome_for_real:

That is awesome!  Keep it up!


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on September 26, 2012, 04:19:32 AM
Last t-Shirts I bought were 3 or 4XL but yesterday I tried an old XXL shirt on I had not worn in years and it did fit.  WTF.  :awesome_for_real:

Well done.  :awesome_for_real:

Also, thanks for bringing the thread back to actual workouts and results rather then about other guys ball sacks. That was getting a little too... well, let's go with offtopic.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: climbjtree on October 06, 2012, 12:42:12 PM
Well I stopped using Fitocracy a while back because I hate the completely arbitrary way points are assigned to a given exercise. Right now I'm deployed, but we managed to bring over some Rogue Fitness stuff and kettlebells and junk. Almost everything I'm doing now is barbell oriented and it's just a modified Starting Strength routine anyway. I've got an A workout and a B workout that are spaced out every other day, with core stuff and cardio done on my "off" days.

The following is my workout, and weight (in lbs) I'm currently doing:

Height: 5'11"
Weight: 192 lbs

A Workout

3x5 SQUAT - 335
3x5 BENCH - 250
1x5 DEADLIFT - 225
3x10 DIPS w/ RINGS
3x10 TRICEP EXTENSIONS  - 100

B Workout

3x5 SQUAT - 335
3x5 STANDING MILITARY PRESS - 155
3x5 BENT OVER ROWS - 155
3x10 PULL UPS w/ RINGS
2x8 CURLS - 40

For core stuff I do a lot with TRX straps and for cardio I generally run 2 miles and shoot for a sub 7 minute pace.

I'm really digging this routine, and what really sets it off is doing squats every workout.

If anybody has any questions or critiques I'd be happy to hear it!


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on October 06, 2012, 01:29:21 PM
Other than hello beastmode, looks like a really solid routine. The TRX stuff is sorta trendy, but I'm a bit of a fan of them myself.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: climbjtree on October 06, 2012, 03:57:29 PM
Thanks man!

Dude, I was very skeptical about TRX at first! However I am really starting to like them and I try and work it in with more traditional stuff, i.e. hanging leg raises and stuff like that. I guess the only real goal I have right now is to have massive tree trunk thighs, though I'm not sure how reasonable a goal that is for my frame.





Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on October 07, 2012, 09:22:40 AM
The following is my workout, and weight (in lbs) I'm currently doing:

Height: 5'11"
Weight: 192 lbs

You sir, are a beast.  I'm almost identical in height and weight and I can't push nearly as much iron.  I'm currently doing iso work on MWF, but may change that to a MT/Th F workout to try to spur more strength gains.  Thanks for the motivation!


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on October 07, 2012, 10:57:08 AM
climbjtree - out of curiosity, why isn't your deadlift higher?  It's picking nits, I know, but considering your 350 lb squats...well, most people do stronger deads than squats.  Back problems?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on October 08, 2012, 02:03:26 AM
I wouldn't normally do this sort of product schlepping, but it seems worth a mention.  I have been taking N.O. Xplode for the last several weeks prior to my workouts (and also during).  I don't normally go for all the supplement hype, but I was out of creatine, which is generally the only supplement I do take.  So I bought the Xplode to give it a try, knowing that if nothing else, at least it had the creatine in it (though not monohydrate, I guess). 

I'll start out with the side effects, as that seems important:  Apparently there is a caffeine free version, but I am not sure I can even get that here in Euroland.  The Xplode I am taking seems to be absolutely loaded with it.  The first couple of times I took it, it really hit me.  Elevated heart rate, clammy perspiration, weirdly increased mental acuity, and a crash several hours later.  I also felt a bit wobbly, to be honest.  Left me feeling rather strange for the rest of the day the first many times I took it.  Some people report headaches, but I expect that has something to do with the caffeine dosage as well.  That same caffeine has also been messing with my sleep, especially in the early going.  Fuck, that was annoying.  Getting better now, but still a bit of an issue....I would personally say that this has been the biggest negative with it.  Also, it tastes like shit.

The subjective:  I feel a little more focused when working out.  Much easier to achieve that "rage" mode when you have all that stuff flowing through your system.  Maybe a little more endurance as well, but hard to be certain of that.  It actually DOES seem to "increase your pump" while you are working out...it could be my imagination, but it appears to be having some of the vascular effect that it is promising (more protusion of the veins), at least if the visual reference is anything to go by.  In short, it appears to make my muscles look more impressive during the workout itself.  I suppose that is some combination of the blood supposedly flowing through your system due to the NO, plus the creatine helping to retain the water in your muscles.  At least, that's the theory.  Might be something to it.

For reference, I'm about 5´8", 78 kg (a hair over 170 lbs).

The objective:  Last January I did a personal best barbell deadlift of 160 kg.  I remember it clearly, because it was actually an extremely shitty rep and I probably shouldn't really have counted it.  My real max was probably from a week prior to that, a legit lift of 155 kg.  6 weeks ago (starting up again after the long cut), I finally managed to barely squeak out a legit 160 kg deadlift.  Let's call that the baseline.  Messed around a bit trap bar deadlift variations for a while without trying to max out, and at the same time began taking the Xplode.  Two weeks ago, I did a 165 kg regular deadlift.  A week ago, I did a 180 kg trap bar deadlift (these are a little easier to get off the ground, hence the higher weight).  Yesterday, I did a 175 kg deadlift.  I was stunned...I did not think I had it in me.  It was solid as a motherfucker, and I even held it there for a few extra seconds to show up all the younglings.  My goal for the longest time has been a 180 kg deadlift (e.g. roughly 400 lbs), but I never seriously thought I would get close to it.  Something remarkable has happened to my deads over the last few weeks.  Coincidence? 

Related to the above, my grip strength has vastly improved over the same short period.  This is not something I can bullshit.  I am a relatively small guy, with relatively small hands.  One armed DB rows are one of my favorite exercises, but I usually have to wear straps on anything over 30 kg, otherwise my grip will fail.  The other day, I was able to whip out 10 reps of 36 kg without straps, and without any seriously issue with grip strength.  It may sound minor, but this was a HUGE revelation for me.  I had just assumed that I would never be able to do that because of my smallish hands.  Even moreso than the increased deadlifts, this has proven to me that I have actually grown measurably stronger over a relatively short period of time.

There are other things as well, but none that have been quite as eye opening as the above.  I whipped out 4 sets of 8 incline DB presses with the 36 kg DBs the other day in a pretty convincing fashion.  I may have once managed 8 or 10 reps with these in the past, but it never felt this easy, and probably not for repeated sets.

My conclusion?  There may be something to this stuff.  I am a skeptic by nature and generally stay away from all the snake oil, but I have not other explanation for these recent improvements.  My diet is not great, nor am I consuming all that many extra calories (only gained about 2 kg since stopping my cut a couple months ago).  Not even particularly a lot of protein.  Sleeping worse, not better.  No other drugs or anything in my system.  At any rate, while I cannot be absolutely positive this stuff is the catalyst, I will be buying a second tin when this one runs out.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: climbjtree on October 08, 2012, 10:33:58 AM
climbjtree - out of curiosity, why isn't your deadlift higher?  It's picking nits, I know, but considering your 350 lb squats...well, most people do stronger deads than squats.  Back problems?

Last time I really did some deadlifts, I was at 405. I could probably muscle up some more weight, but I've got terrible form and I know it. I've also got this fear of hurting my back. I can work through a lot of other injuries, but a back injury basically puts me out of work and then I'm a liability to my team. That said, I just do 225 to keep those muscles active.

I took NOExplode for a while, but it makes me feel funky. Now I've just got a Musclepharm pre-workout and afterwards I do like 35g of 100% whey. I'm going to start some creatine soon though, so we'll see what that adds.

Thanks for the motivation!

Thanks man! How are you when it comes to running? I am complete and utter garbage, and if I get up around 200 lbs? Fuggetaboutit.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on October 08, 2012, 11:01:26 AM
Thanks man! How are you when it comes to running? I am complete and utter garbage, and if I get up around 200 lbs? Fuggetaboutit.

I'm losing strength on my way down to 180.  I just can't seem to get lighter than 190 without getting sick or getting skinny. 

I started running 3 miles a day (~ 8 min mile pace) but found that it was pretty low yield in terms of fitness vs injury.  Lately I've been riding a stationary bike with resistance high enough to keep my HR around 140 BPM (resting is ~50 BPM) and find that more effective from a fitness standpoint while less from an aerobic standpoint.  Since I doubt I will qualify for the Olympics, that's a fine sacrifice for me.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Merusk on October 08, 2012, 12:48:45 PM
Nebu,

Have you looked at any of the elliptical or cross-trainers vs. the stationary bike?  I can't run as it'll destroy my knees, (Jogging's ok but not as effective) but I feel better working on those than on a stationary bike. Plus you can get the arms and butt in to it vs. on the bike machines at my gym.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on October 08, 2012, 02:58:31 PM
Have you looked at any of the elliptical or cross-trainers vs. the stationary bike?  I can't run as it'll destroy my knees, (Jogging's ok but not as effective) but I feel better working on those than on a stationary bike. Plus you can get the arms and butt in to it vs. on the bike machines at my gym.

My legs feel like jello when I finish with the stationary bike... but I ride it with intensity.  I've never tried an elliptical.  Perhaps I should. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Merusk on October 08, 2012, 04:04:35 PM
I get the same feeling off the Elliptical and the bonus is the ease on my joints and additional muscle groups.  The ones at my gym have some nice resistance settings to them at about 10-15.  Set it for performance, level 10 and go.  There's a few different models at my place, my favorites have the heart rate monitors on the moving handgrips.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on October 09, 2012, 03:33:08 AM
Thanks man! How are you when it comes to running? I am complete and utter garbage, and if I get up around 200 lbs? Fuggetaboutit.

I'm losing strength on my way down to 180.  I just can't seem to get lighter than 190 without getting sick or getting skinny. 

I started running 3 miles a day (~ 8 min mile pace) but found that it was pretty low yield in terms of fitness vs injury.  Lately I've been riding a stationary bike with resistance high enough to keep my HR around 140 BPM (resting is ~50 BPM) and find that more effective from a fitness standpoint while less from an aerobic standpoint.  Since I doubt I will qualify for the Olympics, that's a fine sacrifice for me.

What do you mean by "fitness" in this context?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on October 09, 2012, 09:18:53 AM
What I meant by 'fitness' was that I feel strong and lean, but it doesn't give quite the aerobic benefit (improved VO2 max) that I'd get from road work. 

I'll try to be better about mu verbage.  I wrote this with two students in my office. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on October 09, 2012, 11:17:50 AM
Heh - no problem but I wasn't sure whether you were talking aerobic, anaerobic or other.

How long are you on the bike and have you incorporated intervals into that (working at 160-170 bpm)?





Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on October 12, 2012, 09:26:56 AM
Heh - no problem but I wasn't sure whether you were talking aerobic, anaerobic or other.

How long are you on the bike and have you incorporated intervals into that (working at 160-170 bpm)?

I'm not sure that I can physically get to 170 bpm anymore without something like a stress test.  I also don't care to do much more than spin.  I'm not training for anything at the moment.  Just trying to keep my legs in shape without doing anything that will make my knees hurt in the morning.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on October 13, 2012, 07:36:43 PM
Ran another half today and finally managed to avoid any type of long lasting injury.  Both calves twinged at 10.5, so I did a mix of run/walk/stretch and slowing my pace.  Finished with a new PR and the idea of stretching out to the full is beginning to sound less terrible.   I think I do need to get at least one more half in with a set of compression socks or something to see if I can avoid the calf cramping, since it's now happened in every half I've ran.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on October 14, 2012, 02:38:15 PM
Does anyone have any views on skipping (with a rope) as a warmup/agility exercise?

I'm thinking about giving it a go; although this would also require me learning how to skip. Cue hilarity I'm sure.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Mosesandstick on October 14, 2012, 03:15:30 PM
I skip a fair bit, most often just before I start my martial arts sessions. I really enjoy it but I don't know how useful it is. Skipping is definitely hilarious though.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: climbjtree on October 15, 2012, 12:51:43 AM
Jumping rope is good cardio, I like to rotate it with running and rowing to keep things fresh. Cardio is excruciatingly boring so I definitely need some variance.

In other news, I managed to bench 315 yesterday for the second time in my life. Though I must say it was ugly... real ugly... but it happened!


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on October 15, 2012, 12:58:42 AM
Does anyone have any views on skipping (with a rope) as a warmup/agility exercise?

I'm thinking about giving it a go; although this would also require me learning how to skip. Cue hilarity I'm sure.

I see more and more people doing it at my gym.  Often times it is hot women, for some reason.  I can only conclude that it might turn you into a hot woman.  Joking aside, boxers do it, so I imagine it must be pretty effective.

On another note, I managed to pull off a 190 kg trap bar deadlift yesterday.  My grip started to fail about a half a heartbeat after I locked it out, so I am going to count it.  I may have made a grunting sound.  Form is starting to get a little too dodgy at these weights, so I may have to try to plateau here for a while until such time that I can do it a little more cleanly (though I will have to give 180 kg a go on the regular bar this week).


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on October 15, 2012, 04:47:46 AM
Ran another half today and finally managed to avoid any type of long lasting injury.  Both calves twinged at 10.5, so I did a mix of run/walk/stretch and slowing my pace.  Finished with a new PR and the idea of stretching out to the full is beginning to sound less terrible.   I think I do need to get at least one more half in with a set of compression socks or something to see if I can avoid the calf cramping, since it's now happened in every half I've ran.

Well done on the new PR.  :drill:

I fully encourage you to stetch and also work on your mobility far more - because I didn't and am now paying the price for it. My ITB is still an issue and that's because of poor hip mobility, tight quads and also tight calves (and my last ultra probably didn't help). A week ago, after a not-as-gentle-as-it-should-have-been  8 mile run to work, I got extreme pain in my left foot that left me unable to walk without pain for two days. Diagnosis: plantar fasciitis -  caused, unsuprisingly, by tight calves and achilles (and possibly having put on a few too many pounds over the last couple of months - currently around 205).

I'm confident most of this could probably have been avoided by not slacking off and doing my stretching regularly and making out with my foam-roller religously.

I also suffer from calf cramping a lot (as well as Benign Fasciculation Syndrome (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i23DoNFDjCE) usually after running 10-15 miles) but have had far less problems when I do use the foam roller so if you haven't got one, I really recommend getting one.

So now I'm not running for a while and will be putting my legs back into order (and shifting those extra pounds in the gym).


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on October 15, 2012, 06:39:59 AM
I skip a fair bit, most often just before I start my martial arts sessions. I really enjoy it but I don't know how useful it is. Skipping is definitely hilarious though.

I'm a fan.  Just mix it up a little doing a set forwards and then a backwards set. 

DraconianOne -  I've been bad about it the past month or so, but I was usually doing yoga at least once a week for about that reason.  I've had IT issues in the past and yoga helped a lot in stretching that out and keeping it from recurring.  I'm terrible with forcing myself to use the roller though.  I need to, but that stupid thing hurts like hell, even if it does feel better afterwards.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on October 16, 2012, 07:25:49 AM
Cool, thanks for the feedback. Does anyone have any tips on learning it other than just doing it? Also, do you aim to do sets for time, or to failure?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Mosesandstick on October 16, 2012, 02:10:25 PM
As a warm up I usually do sets of a certain number of skips (unless I bung it up and mangle my toes). Alternate sets between two leg hops, hopping from leg to leg, front and back, left and right and that sort of thing. I tend to do it ad hoc. If I ever want to tire myself out I start doing double skips.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on October 18, 2012, 04:25:10 PM
Since I don't have a particularly long race for awhile, I'm mixing things up and going to let my weekly mileage drop a little bit and start doing some heavy lifting again.  Even though I enjoyed my first go around with P90x, it's a little too much since I'm going to still be keeping a run schedule of some sort.  I went ahead and grabbed an Android app called jefit which seems to basically allow you to tie in nicely to a user driven site with a bunch of workouts. I went ahead and grabbed a beginner bulking one that looked at least somewhat fundamentally sound without the stupidity from whatever nonsense Men's Fitness is pushing this month.

So basically a standard 3 day split
today was Chest and Triceps

half a mile run (to the gym)
Bench Press 3x6
Barbell Incline Bench Press 3x6
Dumbbell Fly 3x8
Triceps Pushdown3x10
Dips 3x10
half a mile run home

Rest of the week

Back and Biceps
Deadlift  3x8
Bent over Rows 3x8
Wide-Grip Lat Pulldown 3x8
Dumbbell Bicep Curl 3x10
EZ-Bar Curl 3x10
Cable Crunch 2x15

Legs and Shoulders
Barbell Squat 3x8
Leg Press 3x8
Seated Calf Raise 3x12
Barbell Shrug 3x12
Barbell Shoulder Press 3x8

Any thoughts on this?  Things I may want to swap out, etc?




Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: climbjtree on October 19, 2012, 01:18:54 AM
Looks good. I might add in one more tricep exercise, and on legs/shoulders I like my calf raises tacked on to the end of my sets of squats. Also you might look at alternating standing shoulder press and push press.

But like I said, those are just ideas.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: climbjtree on October 19, 2012, 06:24:27 AM
Alright, I've made some big changes to my workout and I'd like to share 'em. I'm training up for a pretty intense assessment after this deployment, an this workout is very SOF oriented but I think there might be some of you who would enjoy it. It's certainly an interesting read anyway.

Quote
This program was designed as a way to build a solid operator base of fitness. We pulled material from these sources: Mark Twight (gymjones.com), Rob Shauls (mtnathlete.com), Greg Glassman (crossfit.com), Dan John (Google him) and Scott Ramsdell (athleticperformanceinc.biz). We combined the idea behind the Gym Jones 3 month operator fitness program, a lot of Mountain Athlete workouts, some Crossfit WOD and API workouts and turned them into a 4 month workout program that has numerous options each day so that you could use it for 2-3 rotations and not become bored with it.
Our goals specifically in making this program are to be able to DL 2.5x, Front Squat 1.5x, Bench 1.5x, Military Press 1x our BW and still be the cardio shape to run 3 miles easily in under 20:00. Also, we will have a score of at least 200 on the SSST. Whatever your individual goals are just tweak this program towards them in order to achieve them within 4 months.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1za5J2MmFd9rPUCgJlah7GcVkcKz8fFs6OtXPmR4FbAs/edit (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1za5J2MmFd9rPUCgJlah7GcVkcKz8fFs6OtXPmR4FbAs/edit)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on October 19, 2012, 10:54:22 AM
Since I don't have a particularly long race for awhile, I'm mixing things up and going to let my weekly mileage drop a little bit and start doing some heavy lifting again.  Even though I enjoyed my first go around with P90x, it's a little too much since I'm going to still be keeping a run schedule of some sort.  I went ahead and grabbed an Android app called jefit which seems to basically allow you to tie in nicely to a user driven site with a bunch of workouts. I went ahead and grabbed a beginner bulking one that looked at least somewhat fundamentally sound without the stupidity from whatever nonsense Men's Fitness is pushing this month.

So basically a standard 3 day split
today was Chest and Triceps

half a mile run (to the gym)
Bench Press 3x6
Barbell Incline Bench Press 3x6
Dumbbell Fly 3x8
Triceps Pushdown3x10
Dips 3x10
half a mile run home

Rest of the week

Back and Biceps
Deadlift  3x8
Bent over Rows 3x8
Wide-Grip Lat Pulldown 3x8
Dumbbell Bicep Curl 3x10
EZ-Bar Curl 3x10
Cable Crunch 2x15

Legs and Shoulders
Barbell Squat 3x8
Leg Press 3x8
Seated Calf Raise 3x12
Barbell Shrug 3x12
Barbell Shoulder Press 3x8

Any thoughts on this?  Things I may want to swap out, etc?

Looks decent enough, the only thing that raises an eyebrow for me is sticking in dips right at the end of your chest/tricep session. Dips are one of the most demanding exercises you can do, and I don't think they belong at the end of a workout. If you can do sets of 10 dips after everything else then you haven't been doing anywhere near enough work on your earlier lifts. If you're doing the earlier lifts seriously then you'd probably be failing through the dips. I'd be tempted to actually roll the dips into your shoulders day, since dips overlap with shoulders pretty much as much as they do with chest work. Alternatively (if you have a belt) ditch the incline bench and the triceps pushdowns and do weighted dips.

Shrugs aren't really a shoulder exercise despite the name, they're predominantly working your traps and rhomboids. I guess this depends on your definition of what shoulders are, but in my book they're a back exercise.

So I guess if I was designing this sort of plan I'd move dips to legs and shoulders day, move shrugs to back day and probably ditch the cable crunches or move them to leg day.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on October 19, 2012, 12:33:35 PM
I disagree about the dips.  I often do sets of 10 dips after a workout as a way to shred any remaining muscle.  If I do them early, I either need to do weighted dips or do 30 of them (which is tedious) to get a good burn.  At the end, you're so spent that your body weight is more than sufficient to do the job. 

I love doing naturals at the end of my workouts.  It's a great way to fully crush the muscle group.

I do agree about shrugs.  I find them worthless for anything but vanity and helmet-wearing sports. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on October 19, 2012, 01:48:14 PM
For me, my arms were toasted enough by the end of the workout, that I ended up doing about 2 bw dips and then just switched over to an assist machine in order to finish off the sets.   Which isn't ideal obviously, but I've got a long ways to go in general anyhow with lifting.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on October 19, 2012, 05:46:52 PM
Shrugs are good to give yourself a cushion behind your neck for jerks  :grin:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on October 21, 2012, 06:37:27 AM
Shrugs don't feel like a very natural movement to me...and when I think about it, it is probably because shrugging heavy weight is not something the human body should ever need to do and therefore was not designed to do it.  More to the point, though, I find that deads and rack deads rape my traps in a way that shrugs never could, so why bother?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on October 22, 2012, 08:00:29 AM
I've decided that the NO explode stuff has more caffeine in it than I really want to be dealing with (sleep issues improved, but not gone completely), so I have temporarily switched to another blend of some Swedish shit that has half the caffeine.  Will probably just ultimately switch to a pure creatine solution, as I am willing to admit that my recent gains are due largely to a combination of the creatine, and maybe even some placebo effect.

But that said, the last 4 weeks have given me some shockingly good results:

- Tied my squat personal best (with better form than before).  Still a shitty 130 kgs (I don't think my body was designed for squatting, somehow), but I have no doubt I will push it higher.
- Set a new personal best for the flat bench.
- Destroyed my previous PB on the incline bench.  Maybe a 10 kg improvement or so.
- Tied my PB in the power clean/press, despite doing them immediately after wearing myself completely on deadlifts.
- Absolutely demolished my PB in deadlifts.  In reality, including clean locked-out lifts, I added 25 kg to my deadlifts in 5 weeks or so.  I managed to get 180kg cleanly off the ground yesterday (might have had enough in the tank for 185...).  Four plates per side! 

I have never looked or felt stronger, and I am a good 10 pounds below my usual bulking phase weight.  For all the lifts that matter to me, I have met or significantly exceeded my old records.  I am not even eating like a pig.  The only thing that has changed is the NO explode...again, willing to admit that it could be just the creatine, because I don't think I have ever ingested so much of it, nor so regularly.  Or the psychological factor.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on October 22, 2012, 09:34:22 AM
Creatine will help you gain weight, but much of it is water weight.  It has a tendency to hold water in muscle making them appear bigger. The fact that it supports both anaerobic ATP production and anabolic growth in muscle makes it a wonderful supplement for strength gains as well.  I try not to use it mostly because a) it adds work to the kidneys (if you're <35 that doesn't matter if you're healthy) and b) it generates plateaus that I find nearly impossibel to break through without continuing creatine supplementation.   


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on October 31, 2012, 12:07:46 PM
Update: You got me taking creatine (500 mg/2x daily) again just to see the results.  Last time I used it was about 10 years ago.

Result: DAY-UM.  Muscles feel bigger, tighter, and stronger after just a week.  Added 10 lbs to military barbell presses and did 10 sets of 8 reps like it was nothing.  Chest doesn't seem to be responding as well, but it has only been 1 week. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on November 01, 2012, 02:00:43 AM
I KNOW!

Another good thing about the creatine is that, if you are just taking it straight without all the bullshit, it can be had relatively cheaply.  I am pretty much taking it straight now, and will try to assess the difference I feel between the pure creatine and the mixed stuff like the Explode.



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: climbjtree on November 02, 2012, 10:28:45 AM
Gave the 1000 lb club a shot today made my entry at 1125 lbs. No bigs.  :rock_hard:

... but seriously I am pretty happy about it!


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Salamok on November 02, 2012, 11:07:16 AM
Gave the 1000 lb club a shot today made my entry at 1125 lbs. No bigs.  :rock_hard:

... but seriously I am pretty happy about it!

Congratz! What was your breakdown?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on November 02, 2012, 11:48:37 AM
Impressive.  Well done.

If I squat more than 225, my knees will explode.  Fuck I hate getting old.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on November 02, 2012, 11:59:45 AM
Gave the 1000 lb club a shot today made my entry at 1125 lbs. No bigs.  :rock_hard:

... but seriously I am pretty happy about it!

Damn!  Really awesome work.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: climbjtree on November 02, 2012, 12:47:32 PM
Thanks for the support guys!

315 for bench, 425 for squats, and 385 for dead lifts.

I have terrible form when it comes to dead lifts, and very rarely work on them because I hate them. Also don't care to hurt my back... but I'm starting to think I'm shorting myself by skipping over them.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on November 02, 2012, 10:58:37 PM
apropos of nothing, but god do I need to remember to hide the scale when shifting from running 35-30 miles a week to lifting and strength training.   


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on November 05, 2012, 12:50:19 AM
Impressive.  Well done.

If I squat more than 225, my knees will explode.  Fuck I hate getting old.

Maybe this is why my body refuses to get better at squats, because I am getting too old?  I think you just ruined my day.

I failed my 185kg (just over 400lb) deadlift attempt over the weekend.  My back and legs were ready, but the grip in my left hand was not.  I'm not sure how to overcome that, as I want to avoid straps.  Will probably just have to hover here for a bit until my hands catch up.

Climbjtree:  Huge congrats, must feel nice.  I am trying to get to 1000 as well, but I have a feeling my terrible squats are going to keep me from getting there.  Got 65 pounds to go.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: climbjtree on November 15, 2012, 07:31:31 AM
Push pressed 205 lbs today, which is a new high for me. I have been doing a lot of squats and a lot of clean and press lately and I think that's what led improvements in push press.

I like to celebrate the incremental gains... if you wait to celebrate until after the big gains, you don't get to celebrate enough  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on November 15, 2012, 07:46:54 AM
On that same token, I cleaned and pressed 95 kg (just about 210 lbs) the other day, which smashes my old Personal Best.  I have rarely been more thrilled with a single lift.  Not trying to one-up you or anything (you are probably plenty stronger than me on other lifts, and this is roughly the same weight anyway).  I might be able to do 100 kg if I weren't tiring myself out on deadlifts first...but to be honest, the bar starts to get pretty damn intimidating when you get up around here.  I don't have access to bumper plates, so I am always aware of the price of a failed lift somewhere in the back of my mind.  Afraid I am going to fall down, drop the weight on my head or neck, or otherwise just make and ass of myself.

And you should celebrate.  Putting 200 lbs over your head is a rare thing.

Earlier that same day, I managed a 200 kg trapbar deadlift.  There is something intense about lifting this heavy, especially when you succeed.  The adrenaline rush, and then dump of the same, is something I've rarely experienced before.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: climbjtree on November 15, 2012, 07:54:28 AM
I'm not sure of my max clean and press, but I usually do it as a sort of in-between exercise on legs/shoulders day. After several sets of 155 my wrists start to hurt in the same way that they do with front squats, so I have shied away from going much heavier. You motivate me though! Next time I'll give it a go, but I don't expect that I'll just put it up no problem.

There's no one upping here - this thread is a font of motivation!


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: NowhereMan on November 15, 2012, 08:11:21 AM
I've gotta say reading this thread is an inspiration to actually work on increasing my lifts. My deadlift max is about 120kg but my form falls apart after a couple of reps, mostly I think because my grip starts failing badly and it's hard to keep everything in place when I'm aware of the bar rolling out of my fingers. My military press is also really poor, I do it after incline bench and dumbell bench though so I'm not sure if it's form or if my shoulders have already been run a little ragged. Would poor form explain a crappy military press? (Seriously I can manage 30kgs for about 6 reps)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on November 15, 2012, 08:54:57 AM
Incline bench is a serious shoulder workout.  You're fatiguing your delts on the inclines.  

I work shoulders and legs on the same day to get the most out of my shoulder workouts.  I military 70kg x 8 reps (barbell) for 5 sets and I'm not a big guy.  If I tried after inclines it would be much lower.  Maybe you just need to change your weekly splits?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on November 15, 2012, 02:38:50 PM
You all put me to shame.  :ye_gods:  I still can't lift for shit and I feel I should care more than I do.  Apart from my squat which is okay - I think.  :grin:




Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on November 16, 2012, 12:58:10 AM
I'm not sure of my max clean and press, but I usually do it as a sort of in-between exercise on legs/shoulders day. After several sets of 155 my wrists start to hurt in the same way that they do with front squats, so I have shied away from going much heavier. You motivate me though! Next time I'll give it a go, but I don't expect that I'll just put it up no problem.

There's no one upping here - this thread is a font of motivation!

I have somewhat similar issues with my wrist, mainly because I seem to be mechanically unable to bend my arms and wrists to nearly the degree that is required.  I mean, not even close.  I can basically not do front squats at all.  That said, it seems not to matter nearly as much for cleans & presses...as long as I can still hold the bar in rack position - which I can, despite the bad form - then it doesn't cause me too much problem.  I do get some wrist pain, but it seems to get better over time. 

On the subject of Military Presses:  As Nebu says, inclines hit your front delts really hard, so there will be a natural effect there.  So will the flat benches, but to a slightly lesser degree.  And really, military/shoulder presses are just plain hard.  You use a much higher proportion of delt (front and rear) and a much smaller proportion of pecs (they are still very involved).  As such, you will lift way less than you will on the bench press.  I also find them to be somewhat uncomfortable with a barbell, but that might just be me.  Still, they should always be a staple of your workouts, as they are one of the 5 key lifts.  Not only is it a heavy compound lift, but putting big weights over your head has a way of stimulating the entire body.  Try different variations as well...they all have their advantages.  Seated or Standing Dumbell presses are great because they get rid of the problem of the barbell wanting to be on the same plane as your head and give you the best range of motion.  Push presses are not only a good explosive movement, but they will also allow you to get even heavier weights above your head, which again benefits your whole body.

And yeah - keep shoulder day at least two days away from your chest day if you can.  I do push presses on the same day I down clean & presses and deadlifts.  I then do dumbbell and/or barbell military presses 4 days later together with squats.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: NowhereMan on November 16, 2012, 06:28:54 AM
It's a programme off one of the SA threads that has a pretty good balance of compound lifts with some isolation supplemental stuff. I'm enjoying it and I'm not too worried about not being able to lift heavy on the military presses if it's probably due mostly to wearing myself out on the earlier stuff. I seem to be spending most of my time at the moment getting comfortable with one of the big lifts and then pushing the weight up on one of the others and finding my form going to shit. One of these days I think I might just take everything back a bit and maybe get a couple of sessions with a personal trainer to get the form on everything really down.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on November 20, 2012, 08:47:27 AM
Right - bit of a long shot this but if you don't ask...

I'm trying to find someone who can spare an hour or so this Saturday at midday in central London. I have a Fitness Instructor test and need a volunteer to demonstrate on after my last one had to cry off. Person needs to be in good health and between 18 - 45 and fairly fit.


Thanks NowhereMan for helping me out on this.  :drill:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on November 27, 2012, 05:24:07 AM
More creatine fueled updates for the last couple of weeks.  My weight has stabilized to around 80kg, which in total is up about 3kg from when I seriously started using the creatine.  I have not at any point in this processes deliberately tried to really devour the calories, just eating slightly above maintenance levels.  In the past two weeks alone:

- As mentioned previously, a new Personal Best in the Clean & Press of 95kg.  I managed the same weight a second time a week later, just to convince myself it was legit.  Too scared to attempt 100kg.  Overall improvement of 10kg since beginning this whole creatine thing.
- New PB in the plain old deadlift of 182.5kg.  Haven't done a trapbar deadlift recently.  Attempted and failed a 190kg deadlift...grip on left hand gives out before I can lock it out.  I will get there.  Overall improvement..about 27.5kg.
- New PB in the flat bench at 120kg.  Overal improvement about...10 to 15 kg, not sure.
- New PB in the incline bench at 115kg.  Overall improvement of about 25kg (!).
- New PB in the squat at 140kg.  Overal improvement...10 to 15kg, not sure.

Three of the five above were achieved whilst under the influence of a serious cold virus last week.  My stamina is fairly considerable at this point as well, which I think may be key to the whole thing....I am not doing a simple 3x5 for any exercise, nor do I have elaborate splits.  I got to the gym and then work the shit out of one or two things.  Lots and lots of sets of heavy weights with low reps, tapering off into lower weights with higher reps.  For example, here is what my last Incline Day looked like:


    Barbell Incline Bench Press:
        55 kg x 6 reps (+65 pts)
        75 kg x 3 reps (+66 pts)
        95 kg x 3 reps (+89 pts)
        105 kg x 1 reps (+71 pts)
        115 kg x 1 reps (+82 pts)
        95 kg x 4 reps (+100 pts)
        95 kg x 3 reps (+89 pts)
        85 kg x 5 reps (+96 pts)
        85 kg x 5 reps (+96 pts)
        85 kg x 5 reps (+96 pts)
        85 kg x 5 reps (+96 pts)
        85 kg x 5 reps (+96 pts)
        75 kg x 6 reps (+88 pts)
        75 kg x 6 reps (+88 pts)
        75 kg x 6 reps (+88 pts)
        75 kg x 6 reps (+88 pts)
        65 kg x 8 reps (+81 pts)
        65 kg x 8 reps (+81 pts)
        65 kg x 10 reps (+84 pts)
        65 kg x 10 reps (+84 pts)
    Machine Bench Press:
        43 kg x 6 reps (+33 pts)
        83 kg x 6 reps (+60 pts)
        123 kg x 6 reps (+100 pts)
        123 kg x 6 reps (+100 pts)
        113 kg x 6 reps (+94 pts)
        113 kg x 6 reps (+94 pts)
        103 kg x 6 reps (+81 pts)
        103 kg x 6 reps (+81 pts)
        93 kg x 6 reps (+70 pts)
        93 kg x 10 reps (+77 pts)
        83 kg x 10 reps (+67 pts)
        83 kg x 10 reps (+67 pts)

I spend literally like an hour or more sitting at that incline station.  I then go to the machine bench (Hammer Strength...not a shitty cable/pulley thing) just to destroy whatever muscle fibers that are left intact.  I remember when I started this whole thing a couple months ago, when the 60kg on the incline bar felt like a chore.  It now seems hilariously light in comparison.

I am starting to draw conclusions from all of this.

- Creatine.  Fucking.  Works.
- Singles, Doubles and Triples are GREAT.  Just do a bunch of single/double rep sets of really fucking heavy weights as top priority.  Worry about additional reps and working sets after you've peaked on those. 
- This may be controversial, but I am finding out that I spend less energy on warming up.  I am no longer concerned with "getting the blood flowing" or any of the other perceived benefits of warming up.  My sole goal now is simply to make sure that I am mechanically sound enough to do the heavy stuff.  Make sure my rotator cuffs are up to doing heavy presses.  Makes sure my lower back is up to a max deadlift attempt.  Etc.  Otherwise, I make sure that my warmup has as little impact on my ability to lift as heavy as possible.
- Major compound lifts only.  Absolutely everything else detracts from this and is a waste of time, and more importantly, energy that should be devoted to your main lifts.  I don't do ab work, I don't do triceps work, I don't do shrugs, lateral raises, or anything else.  The lone exception I make is for my puny little biceps...both because it is a relatively harmless exercise to perform between other sets (non-taxing) and also because genetically speaking my biceps do not "pop" like I wish they would and need extra attention. 
- I will stop making snap judgements about how other people are on the juice.  Because I now suspect some may be looking at me thinking the same thing.
- I still fucking suck at squats.  I am going to work on this.

Sorry if this is all coming across as Cyrrex's Personal Blog - I am eager to share my experiences, and hope that it give others of you ideas you can use.   The main takeaway here is TAKE CREATINE.  And then lift like a mad man.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on November 27, 2012, 06:13:53 AM
You're warming up the muscles you're going to be using to help you lift better and protect from injury - not sure what's controversial about that!  :grin:

How much and how often are you (and Nebu) taking Creatine? I have a tentative plan to start supplementing in the new year with it as I've got a half baked notion to going back to sprinting but my power and speed has definitely been affected by combined factors of age and plenty of distance running over the last few years (although there's a small matter of an ultra I've got my eye on at the end of March...)

Well done on the PBs. I'm surprised that you don't do specific ab work though - is that because you find your core gets enough of a work out from the compound lifts or other reasons?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on November 27, 2012, 06:43:46 AM
What I mean about the warming up is that I feel that I am doing quite a bit less warming up in total than what would be professionally recommended, and the less I do, the better I perform overall.  I am beginning to believe that most of the popular opinion on warming up is simply bullshit.  Less is more.

On creatine intake:  I am mixing the creatine (both in pre-mixed blends as well as manually mixing it with some blends), so I don't know the exact measurement I am taking...but I would guess it would be about 8 to 10 grams a day?  Maybe a tad more.

On ab work:  Well, there are a few reasons I don't do it.  Number one, the movements themselves are unnatural, and potentially harmful.  They aren't true compound movements and do not have much practical application in terms of strength improvement.  Secondly, and more importantly for me, your abs are primarily stabilizers, not movers.  "Crunching" them together is all well and fine (not) but they are better worked by holding your spine in place while doing things like squats, deadlifts, overhead presses and even pull-ups.  Oh, and the power cleans.  Each of those exercises are better core/ab moves than any isolated ab move.  So ultimately, I work the ever-loving shit out of my abs...just not by doing isolated ab work.  Try holding up 170kg for 5 seconds without getting your abs into it  :awesome_for_real:

Again, if it's not a compound move, it is a waste of time.  The only true exception to that rule is for calf raises, because they are otherwise impossible to work properly.  I make another exception for myself for my puny biceps, but I doubt I should even bother.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: climbjtree on November 27, 2012, 09:07:56 AM
I take 4g of Creatine HCl a day. I'd say do a loading dose of about double that for a 4-5 days, and then you're good to come down after that just to maintain a constant level in your bod.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on November 27, 2012, 09:13:19 AM
I take 4g of Creatine HCl a day. I'd say do a loading dose of about double that for a 4-5 days, and then you're good to come down after that just to maintain a constant level in your bod.

I strongly urge you to reduce your dose.  Of that 4g, your body is maybe using about 1g and the rest is working your kidneys.  You can save money and your kidneys by buying creatine as the methyl ester which will allow you to take less and absorb more. 

I've been taking 1g creating monohydrate (500mg 2x daily) on off days and 2g (1g 2x daily) on workout days.  It makes me significantly increase my water intake, but I do notice that wonderful 'tightness' that you get from it. 

Also note: a high protein diet requires a significant increase in water as well.  You need to get rid of the ammonia from muscle breakdown as urea which works your urea cycle hard.  I've read cases of people dying from liquid protein diets due to inadequate water intake.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on November 27, 2012, 11:23:39 AM
What I mean about the warming up is that I feel that I am doing quite a bit less warming up in total than what would be professionally recommended, and the less I do, the better I perform overall.  I am beginning to believe that most of the popular opinion on warming up is simply bullshit.  Less is more.

Funnily enough, there was a study published in the Journal of Applied Physiology last year that was titled "Less is more: standard warm-up causes fatigue and less warm-up permits greater cycling power output (http://jap.physiology.org/content/111/1/228.long)". One thing most studies agree on (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19996770) is that the benefits of warming-up can be demonstrated but there's no agreement on what a warm-up should be, exactly. Having said that, the one thing a lot of research seems to be indicating is that static stretching in a warm-up may not be beneficial for performance (but you'll find fitness professionals still teaching it because it's still in the course materials).

As for ab core workouts, I don't disagree that the gains you would get from isolated moves would be minimal because you're a conditioned, experienced lifter. I wouldn't recommend someone new to lifting to skip on making sure their postural muscles are strong enough though because their technique will probably suffer for it.

And as for you guys and your creatine doses, I guess tonights task is to dig out research on that too. :grin:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on November 27, 2012, 11:29:26 AM
And as for you guys and your creatine doses, I guess tonights task is to dig out research on that too. :grin:

Most literature studies that I'm familiar with have a 20g per day for 5 day loading phase followed by 3-5g per day regiments.  Even in these large doses, the gains are in the 3-5% range in terms of performance.  Of course, individual results will vary.



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on November 27, 2012, 01:21:16 PM
What I mean about the warming up is that I feel that I am doing quite a bit less warming up in total than what would be professionally recommended, and the less I do, the better I perform overall.  I am beginning to believe that most of the popular opinion on warming up is simply bullshit.  Less is more.


As for ab core workouts, I don't disagree that the gains you would get from isolated moves would be minimal because you're a conditioned, experienced lifter. I wouldn't recommend someone new to lifting to skip on making sure their postural muscles are strong enough though because their technique will probably suffer for it.


Right....But!  The whole point, from my POV, is that doing those kinds of lifts is exactly what you should be doing to strengthen those muscles.  Why not?  Not as heavy, of course.  Make sure your form is good, and go to town.   Crunches don't do it barely at all, and the same is true of most other ab work I see people doing.   


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on November 27, 2012, 01:25:00 PM
All most people need to do are 3 exercises.

1) Bench press
2) Deadlift
3) Squats

This would do so much to strengthen their core, that the ancillary muscles would follow. 

The most common mistakes that you see at the gym are poor form, too much arm work, and too high a number of reps.   I workout 30 mins 4x a week in the weight room and I get more benefit than most of the kids I see swinging weights for an hour a day 6x a week.  It's not about volume, it's about quality and intensity. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: RhyssaFireheart on November 27, 2012, 02:06:35 PM
All most people need to do are 3 exercises.

1) Bench press
2) Deadlift
3) Squats

This would do so much to strengthen their core, that the ancillary muscles would follow. 

The most common mistakes that you see at the gym are poor form, too much arm work, and too high a number of reps.   I workout 30 mins 4x a week in the weight room and I get more benefit than most of the kids I see swinging weights for an hour a day 6x a week.  It's not about volume, it's about quality and intensity. 
So what's the best way to "define" quality and intensity in your workout?  My typical workout is 30 mins on the treadmill (usually at or about 2mph, no incline yet) and then I alternate days between upper body and lower body workouts.  I do 2 sets of 10-12 reps with the second set being 5lbs higher than the first set.  I try to make it a challenge and not lift easy weights, but the second set is usually tough.  I try to get to the gym at least twice a week bare minimum, more if life permits.

My biggest problem is that I'm seeing little outward physical change although I can tell there are changes (walking is easier and I can increase the speed, muscles under the fat, that kind of thing) but no change in measurements.  I've fallen off the bandwagon the past couple of weeks but surprisingly, have only gained less than 5lbs back.  Which doesn't make a bit of difference when you're talking about the amount of weight I need to lose.

I need to figure out what is going wrong since I'm not getting any changes.  Yes, muscle weighs more than fat but honestly?  I should be seeing something different. And I don't really think seeing my doctor would be very useful since his response would probably be to just lose weight.  Hate being a female over 40.. it's almost impossible to slim down.

Anyways, any suggestions on different workout techniques to try?  I'm not going to go for those more intense crazy workouts a few of you were talking about upthread.  That stuff is insane and I enjoy living.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on November 27, 2012, 02:18:37 PM
So what's the best way to "define" quality and intensity in your workout?  

Disclaimer: I know almost nothing about training women.  My experience is entirely with training for power or endurance.  Crossfit is about the best way I know to train for both.

Quality: I would define this as working large muscle groups (shoulders, back, chest, butt, thighs, and calves) with proper form.  In my own workouts, I rarely do more than 6-8 reps per set.  Beyond that point I'm really only testing endurance.  If endurance isn't a goal, then I want to focus on higher weight, 4-6 rep sets.  It's all about your specific goal and desired outcome.

Intensity: This is best measured by how terrible you feel while working out.  You should be working your body to a point on the edge of failure.  A good personal trainer can walk this edge without losing their client.  When training for an event, it's not uncommon for me to vomit during a workout due to intensity.  I'm trying to make my body adapt to a new situation.  My body will only adapt if it fails.  Overcoming failure is how your body adjusts to a new workload.  This is the reason that programs like P90x and insanity work.  They force the body to adapt to a new 'normal'.

Set a goal for your workouts and be as specific about this goal as possible.  When I train, I'm doing it with a very specific purpose in mind.  Beginners should set a less specific goal for the first 10 weeks and get more specific each 10 weeks after.  

I know that this is VERY general, but it's a good way to start.  


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on November 27, 2012, 03:47:43 PM
Right....But!  The whole point, from my POV, is that doing those kinds of lifts is exactly what you should be doing to strengthen those muscles.  Why not?  Not as heavy, of course.  Make sure your form is good, and go to town. Crunches don't do it barely at all, and the same is true of most other ab work I see people doing.   

So chicken and egg: if your postural muscles aren't strong then your form for, say, squat will be poor and you probably won't work them well. Bearing in mind that postural muscles are more than just abs and include ab/adductors, hip flexors, ilipsoas, not to mention lumbar and cervical erector muscles and the deep core muscles like quadratus lumborum.

Essentially, it's going back to one of the fundamental principles of training - start general and work to specific. Doing a squat is a skill that you need to develop, like running or playing tennis. Sure you can walk in off the street and start doing any of them but you need to do them effectively and well, you need to do develop the right strength and skills.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on November 27, 2012, 04:21:13 PM
So what's the best way to "define" quality and intensity in your workout?  My typical workout is 30 mins on the treadmill (usually at or about 2mph, no incline yet) and then I alternate days between upper body and lower body workouts.  I do 2 sets of 10-12 reps with the second set being 5lbs higher than the first set.  I try to make it a challenge and not lift easy weights, but the second set is usually tough.  I try to get to the gym at least twice a week bare minimum, more if life permits.

My biggest problem is that I'm seeing little outward physical change although I can tell there are changes (walking is easier and I can increase the speed, muscles under the fat, that kind of thing) but no change in measurements.  I've fallen off the bandwagon the past couple of weeks but surprisingly, have only gained less than 5lbs back.  Which doesn't make a bit of difference when you're talking about the amount of weight I need to lose.

I need to figure out what is going wrong since I'm not getting any changes.  Yes, muscle weighs more than fat but honestly?  I should be seeing something different. And I don't really think seeing my doctor would be very useful since his response would probably be to just lose weight.  Hate being a female over 40.. it's almost impossible to slim down.

Anyways, any suggestions on different workout techniques to try?  I'm not going to go for those more intense crazy workouts a few of you were talking about upthread.  That stuff is insane and I enjoy living.

Intensity is going to be subjective and the most common way of defining it is as "peceived exertion". When you're working out, try to gauge how you feel on a scale of 1 to 10 - where 1 is very light effort, almost sedentary and 10 is full tilt, all out effort. So if you're walking on the treadmill for 30 mins, how do you feel by the end of it? Was it easy? Could you keep going? Or are you struggling to be able to talk? (If you have a treadmill with HR sensors on the grip, get your HR reading and see what that is.)  Quality is more objective in that when you're exercising, you need to be getting the most benefit out of it - so form, technique and other scary words like that. Mostly you need to make sure that you're not cheating on lifts (so swinging a dumb-bell if you're doing bicep curls) or leaning to the side etc.

Next, are you following a plan of workouts and are you keeping track of what you're doing and how much you're lifting?  If not, try to keep a training diary.

Nebu's right in that goal setting and targets are very important but I'd suggest something different to a 10 week cycle and up it to a 12 week cycle - but split that into 3 x four weeks periods. Set up a plan and stick to it for four weeks. You can progress exercises during that four weeks (like upping the speed of the treadmill, adjusting the incline or add a pound to the weight you're lifting) but at the end, set up a new plan with new exercises - say swap treadmill for the elliptical or stationary bike or move to the resistance machines rather than weights and do that for four weeks.

Working at 2 sets of 12 reps is probably a good starting point for what you're trying to do - you could even up it to 15 reps - but try to keep the rest intervals between sets to not much more than about a minute. I'd also say that if you're adding 5lbs to your second set and doing a full number of reps then your first set is probably not heavy enough. Try to keep the weight the same - if that means upping the weight on the first set and lowering it on the second, so be it.  (Yes, there are benefits to overloading weight like that but at this point, I'd say keep it simple).

I don't recommend doing like Nebu and working out until you vomit at this stage - it's horrible and really not attractive!  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on November 27, 2012, 05:50:56 PM
There will be no emesis on my account.  I was more using it as an illustration of intensity.  As for the rest, incremental gains are the key. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on November 28, 2012, 02:24:25 AM
Right....But!  The whole point, from my POV, is that doing those kinds of lifts is exactly what you should be doing to strengthen those muscles.  Why not?  Not as heavy, of course.  Make sure your form is good, and go to town. Crunches don't do it barely at all, and the same is true of most other ab work I see people doing.   

So chicken and egg: if your postural muscles aren't strong then your form for, say, squat will be poor and you probably won't work them well. Bearing in mind that postural muscles are more than just abs and include ab/adductors, hip flexors, ilipsoas, not to mention lumbar and cervical erector muscles and the deep core muscles like quadratus lumborum.

Essentially, it's going back to one of the fundamental principles of training - start general and work to specific. Doing a squat is a skill that you need to develop, like running or playing tennis. Sure you can walk in off the street and start doing any of them but you need to do them effectively and well, you need to do develop the right strength and skills.

I am working from the assumption that the vast majority of the population can, with some brief instruction, do a single squat with an empty barbell on their back (even something less than an Olympic barbell if necessary).  The squat is the single best overall exercise for the entire posterior chain.  A bunch of physiologically unnatural isolated movements are a poor substitute for a single weighted squat, even for a beginner.  ESPECIALLY for a beginner.  And while I will agree that it is a skill to be developed, it isn't a particularly hard one to learn.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on November 28, 2012, 05:05:49 AM
I am working from the assumption that the vast majority of the population can, with some brief instruction, do a single squat with an empty barbell on their back (even something less than an Olympic barbell if necessary). 

That's quite an assumption to make and to be honest, up until not long ago, I probably would have agreed with you but from recent experience, not any more - and I'm talking about not even being able to do body weight squats with good form, not with weights.  Even something that I percieve to be simple, like a lunge, can be a difficult move for absolute beginners because of lack of strength in the glutes or ankles, lack of mobility in the hips and so on.

But this isn't really an argument because I absolutely agree about the benefits of the squats and compound movements in general. I just don't dismiss the utility of isolation moves and don't agree that they're physiologically unnatural or harmful (although I promise to keep an open mind and read any study or research you care to put my way  :awesome_for_real: ). In the same way that you recognise you have an imbalance in your arms, some people are going to have imbalances between their quads/hams and abs/back and they'll need to be developed in isolation to develop balanced strength.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on November 28, 2012, 05:39:08 AM
I had a feeling you would make that exact rebuttal (which is cool)...my thinking here is something along the lines of "if a person is not healthy enough to do a single squat with an empty bar on their back, then this is not an ordinary, otherwise healthy individual".  Because, you know, he/she wouldn't be.  A healthy human being should be able to do this one time.  My contention is then that such a person would probably benefit more from a serious diet and/or some major calorie burning activities. 

I am not including people here with serious back/knee or other joint issues.  That's another matter.

Natural vs Unnatural...here is what I mean by way of example.  Adductor/Abductor machines, the ones the women can't seem to stay away from.  The movements you have to perform to execute these things are wholly invented by fitness people.  They are not otherwise motions that the human body would naturally make in any other setting or environment.  Unnatural to the extreme.  Same with crunches.  Same with almost all isolated movements (even biceps work).  That isn't to say that they aren't without potential benefit.  What I AM saying, is that they are extremely inefficient, and the only people who really should bother with them overly much are extremely advanced bodybuilders, or people doing specific rehab.  Everyone else will get better results doing the 4 or 5 key compound movements.  Everyone.



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on November 28, 2012, 06:19:19 AM
By the way, I enjoy the discussion and the different POV, so I hope I am not coming across as overly argumentative.  If so, please understand I don't intend to.



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on November 28, 2012, 07:18:09 AM
Likewise. :awesome_for_real: My own studies (yeah, I'm working towards being "one of those fitness guys" as hinted at above) and experience is making me question a lot of assumptions and beliefs and everything that I/we've ever been taught. I enjoy discussing it because it helps me learn more and will probably help me try new things out.

I had a feeling you would make that exact rebuttal (which is cool)...my thinking here is something along the lines of "if a person is not healthy enough to do a single squat with an empty bar on their back, then this is not an ordinary, otherwise healthy individual".  Because, you know, he/she wouldn't be.  A healthy human being should be able to do this one time.  My contention is then that such a person would probably benefit more from a serious diet and/or some major calorie burning activities.

I agree with you but here are some figures:

In 2011, the WHO stated that "Physical inactivity is the fourth leading risk factor for all global deaths". (http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/notes/2011/world_cancer_day_20110204/en/index.html) (They include in this stats related to deaths from coronary heart disease, type 2 diabetes and breast/colon cancer)

A study published in July this year (http://www.lancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(12)60646-1/fulltext) showed that 31% of the worlds adult population are classed as inactive. In countries like the US and UK, that figure is as high as 43%.


In a 2011 NHS study in the UK (http://www.ic.nhs.uk/webfiles/publications/003_Health_Lifestyles/opad11/Statistics_on_Obesity_Physical_Activity_and_Diet_England_2011_revised_Aug11.pdf), 25% of adults in the UK were classed as obese, 25% of adults said they did regular exercise and 20% of adults said they had maybe done one single 20 minute walk - if that - in the previous year.

I don't know about you, but I think these numbers are horrifying. Also, if you squint and generalize a lot, you could probably wangle this to mean that only 1 in 4 people would actually be healthy enough to do a single squat. :ye_gods:  (Okay, maybe it's 1 in 4 that can't - but even so...!)




Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on November 28, 2012, 07:29:00 AM
Yeah, that's horrifying for sure.  Let's at least agree that I not talking about those people.  I would tend to think it comes out closer to 1 in 4...but who knows?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on November 28, 2012, 07:30:09 AM
I'm in the process of re-tooling part of my lab to do nutritional research, so any and all debates are welcome.  I'm particularly looking for gaps in the current literature to see what I can add to existing knowledge.  If anyone here wants to discuss nutrition, metabolic biochemistry, or supplementation, I'd enjoy the debate.  


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on November 28, 2012, 07:46:46 AM
I have some very specific areas of nutrition that I'm interested in and that's regards protein intake during endurance events but not sure whether that's part of your remit or not.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on November 28, 2012, 09:21:44 AM
I have some very specific areas of nutrition that I'm interested in and that's regards protein intake during endurance events but not sure whether that's part of your remit or not.

I'll be happy to provide opinions, but most of the processes I'm looking at are related to anabolic processes. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on November 28, 2012, 09:46:17 AM
I am also curious in talking more on the subject of the supposed Nitric Oxide effect and L-Arginine (and not as it relates to improved boners, Nebu, get your mind out of the gutter).  Also the effect of Caffeine on training.

And relevant to the above, I am experimenting with some different creatine mixes.  A new flavor of NO Xplode (blue raspberry, and not the 2.0 version with the extra extra caffeine), as well as Dymatize Xpand (Xtreme Pump edition, grape flavored).  The Dymatize is supposed to be similar to the Xplode, but with more creatine.  First impression:  The Dymatize tastes waaaaaaaay better.  Both the Xplode products I have tried taste like sweaty butthole, or at least how I image that might taste.  The Dymatize is actually palatable.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on November 28, 2012, 12:16:18 PM
Regarding protein intake during exertion, I don't really see the point unless you're running an ultramarathon.  During exertion, your body is primarily craving glucose.  Protein is an inefficient fuel source and you're certainly not going to be doing much muscle repair during exercise.  The only purpose that I could see for protein would be to shuttle NH3 away from muscle to be processed in the liver (urea cycle).  You're producing plenty of pyruvate from the anaerobic burning of glucose in muscle and that pyruvate can easily be converted to alanine to shuttle the NH3.  Perhaps some B3 would be helpful for keeping your glycolysis running without the production of lactate.

Protein during a workout makes no sense to me.  You won't digest it because you're sympathetic.  You won't use it for repairs because you're catabolic.  Seems like protein would just create an extra BUN load. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on November 28, 2012, 02:25:27 PM
Regarding protein intake during exertion, I don't really see the point unless you're running an ultramarathon. 

That's really what I meant. I did a 100 mile mountain race in the summer and took a load of recovery powder (2 parts maltodextrin to 1 part whey powder) to supplement my usual jelly baby craving. This was based on some old research that indicated that protein can make up to 10% of energy sources in exercise over 5 hours. What I don't know and haven't really been able to find out (because I'm not asking the question in the right way?) is whether this protein has to come from breaking down the muscle or if ingested protein will do.  Plus there's the whole thing about whether muscle damage will be offset by taking in additional protein during an ultra or not.

All I can say is that it didn't hinder my performance and I finished comfortably (well, relatively comfortably  :grin:)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on November 28, 2012, 02:48:22 PM
I think what you're reading is that you'll burn through all of your glycogen stores during the race and then your body will begin to catabolize fat/muscle for fuel.  If it were me, I'd just eat a lot of simple carbs while racing and then eat protein and carb near the finish.  The carbs would give you a ready fuel source and keep you from catabolizing so much muscle if you deplete your glycogen.  The protein near completion will increase your serum protein levels which, with the glucose will help you start repairing immediately after you rest. 

This is all hypothetical mind you.  We should look for some literature on ultramarathoners and see what the empirical data suggest. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on November 29, 2012, 12:30:31 PM
I decided to switch up my routine a tiny bit today.  Started with clean & presses (I ordinarily always do them after deadlifts on the weekend and am a bit worn before I even start).  Decided to attempt 100kg after a bit of warming up, and I FUCKING SUCCEEDED.  I might have 105 in me.  Might.  I held it locked out over my head for about the count of five, just fucking because.  1.25 times my body weight, over my damn head.  So psyched.

Only another 170 kg or so up to the world record.  :oh_i_see:  I should make it there in about 4 trillion weeks.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: climbjtree on December 01, 2012, 12:03:21 AM
That's badass dude! I've been working on my cleans, but my form is so terrible that I can't get above 185 lbs. The issue is that I end up doing a lot of pulling with my arms and end up smoking myself... guess I'll figure out the technique someday but I feel like I'm just doing the wrong thing over and over. All the reading in the world doesn't substitute for a good coach!

I've been working the hell out of squats and deadlifts, and my deadlift is still 30 lbs less than my squat. Lame, right?

Anyway, motivational YAAAARGH picture taken a few days ago:

(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/82469/SAM_0284.jpg)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on December 02, 2012, 08:01:49 AM
That's a great pic man...looks like you got about 400 lbs on there?  At any rate, 4 plates per side is what it's all about.

I was going to go into a whole "what's up with the straps" spiel, but then I got to thinking a bit, and you've inspired me, at least for one day.  I have been deliberately avoiding straps for everything except heavy dumbbell rows, because I have been trying so hard to improve my grip strength.  I'd gotten to the point where I had sorta ignored the possibility of lifting with straps, and maybe I shouldn't be.  So!  Today (deadlift day) I decided to bring my straps with me.  Worked up to my 180kg lift strapless, then decided nut up, put on the straps and try 190kg.  Was pretty confident that I would get it up, and I did.  Pondered it for a minute, and put it up to 200kg (which is scary looking on the bar, let me tell you).  Had to really work myself up mentally for the attempt.  It's crazy how you can feel the adrenaline start to shoot through your system for something like this.  Anyway, I pulled it off.  Like a gay man in a brothel, I had a really hard time getting it up.  But I got it up and held in there for a few seconds.  Holy shit.  Even the concentric move back to the floor was a motherfucker.  Worse part about the whole thing?  There was nobody within 20 meters of me who saw me do it.  There might have been a guy on a treadmill far back to my left who may have stumbled for a moment whilst admiring my fantasticness  :oh_i_see:

I guess it counts as a PB?  I think I will keep track of two numbers now, 200 with the straps, 182.5 without.

For the cleans, yeah, technique is what it's all about.  I wasn't too good at them in the beginning (and some of my form still leaves much to be desired).  Learned a couple simple things that help a little:  One, keep your elbows pointed outwards, directly parallel to the bar for the first part of the lift.  Second, treat the lift as three different phases....you have to slowly pull it up to about around your knees.  Once you get it to that point, only then do you really increase the speed of the lift an pull it hard.  Third, and the part I am still not good at, drop your body by bending your knees and throwing yourself under the bar in a bit of a front squat position.  Part of the problem I had was that I found slightly lower weights to be so easy that I would cheat on the form...and then when it came time for the heavier stuff, it just didn't work.  Practice practice practice.  



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on December 02, 2012, 08:10:01 AM
Also, that is an epic beard.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: climbjtree on December 02, 2012, 11:15:01 AM
Thanks for the beard props, I'm rather proud of it! I started growing it in September, and I'll grow it until the end of April... should be pretty legit by then!

As for the straps - my buddies can deadlift more than I can and straps let me pretend I can keep up. My grip sucks and that was at the end of a workout so without straps there's no way I'd be able to hold on. A 200kg DL, straps or no, is plain ol' bad assery. Hell yeah it's a PB! Good job!

As you said, the rush from lifting something super heavy is awesome. And it's also awesome when someone is there to bask in your post lift glory! There's not a lot that compares to it, so please accept this virtual basking.

I stepped on a digital scale today, and the readout said 189.2 lbs which means I've lost a little bit of weight. You're lifting more than I am, what do you weigh?



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on December 02, 2012, 11:30:14 AM
Nice lift man. 

I gave up on deadlifts when I hit 35 because they were too hard on my old injuries.  I do a lot more iso work now to stay fit and have really been hitting the naturals hard.  At home, I have a backpack that I fill with plates for dips, pullups and pushups.  It's a bit to get used to, but the shifting helps me maintain form and focus while lifting. 

I'm starting to sound like a crazy man in the Montana mountains.  I'll shut up now. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on December 03, 2012, 12:31:36 AM
I stepped on a digital scale today, and the readout said 189.2 lbs which means I've lost a little bit of weight. You're lifting more than I am, what do you weigh?

I think you are lifting quite a bit more than me on the bench and squats though, and that's significant.  I weigh right around 177 lbs at the moment, on a 5'8" frame.  I'm also almost as old and crusty as Nebu, but my mind is still sound, so I haven't yet resorted to backpacks filled with rocks and wet diapers ( :grin:)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Yoru on December 03, 2012, 08:28:19 AM
I'm moving tomorrow, so I won't have access to a gym for a few weeks. Do you guys have any ideas for good bodyweight exercises I can do in the intervening time? Stuff that doesn't require equipment.

So far, all I've got is lunges, squats and push-ups, but that doesn't seem comprehensive enough.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on December 03, 2012, 08:47:43 AM

I like your exercise dungeon

I'm moving tomorrow, so I won't have access to a gym for a few weeks. Do you guys have any ideas for good bodyweight exercises I can do in the intervening time? Stuff that doesn't require equipment.

So far, all I've got is lunges, squats and push-ups, but that doesn't seem comprehensive enough.

You're missing a pulling exercise, but unless you have somewhere to do pullups your options for that will be a bit limited. Walkouts (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMNjTHHxkU4) are one bodyweight exercise I quite like for shoulders, core and upper back.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on December 03, 2012, 09:13:44 AM
I'm moving tomorrow, so I won't have access to a gym for a few weeks. Do you guys have any ideas for good bodyweight exercises I can do in the intervening time? Stuff that doesn't require equipment.

So far, all I've got is lunges, squats and push-ups, but that doesn't seem comprehensive enough.

There's loads you can do with just body weight and even more if you can find a bench/chair/steps to use:

Variations: sumo squat, transverse/reverse lunge, wide-arm/diamond press-ups.
With bench/seat: decline push-ups, bulgarian split quats, tricep dips, inverted shoulder press, step-ups (with high knees)
Dynamic: squat jumps, lunge/split jumps, squat thrusts, burpees, bastards (burpees with added push-up)

If you have space to move (a park or field) there's obviously a load more you can do - only limit is imagination.  :grin:

I regularly do body weight circuits at 4-5 sets of 10-15 reps of 6 exercises with no RI. Takes 20 minutes or so and feels like I've had a good workout. At risk of Cyrrex rolling his eyes, I also occasionallly include core work - crunches, planks, superman etc - although most of the time I work them through high knee raises, squat thrusts and so on.

EDIT: K9 makes a good point about a pulling exercise you can do one using a table if you're prepared to risk it.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on December 03, 2012, 01:39:11 PM
I'm also almost as old and crusty as Nebu, but my mind is still sound, so I haven't yet resorted to backpacks filled with rocks and wet diapers ( :grin:)

Hey man... it worked for this guy!

Everyone loves a montage! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SUzcDUERLo)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on December 04, 2012, 06:06:46 AM

I regularly do body weight circuits at 4-5 sets of 10-15 reps of 6 exercises with no RI. Takes 20 minutes or so and feels like I've had a good workout. At risk of Cyrrex rolling his eyes, I also occasionallly include core work - crunches, planks, superman etc - although most of the time I work them through high knee raises, squat thrusts and so on.

EDIT: K9 makes a good point about a pulling exercise you can do one using a table if you're prepared to risk it.

 :roll:

Nah, just kidding.  Anything is better than nothing, and your advice is particularly good for someone only doing bodyweight stuff.  Also, I have done most of those very things whilst rehabbing my bulging disc issue. 

Meanwhile, I got a tad over-eager yesterday and nearly ended up doing "The Roll of Shame".  I was going for a 125kg bench, a full 5 kg increase on my PB.  I did not succeed, and had no spotter (I know, pretty smart of me, but I never use one).  So I was hovering there for what felt like an eternity, about two inches short of locking it out.  I just couldn't do it.  Took me a couple seconds to realize that I had managed to push it up far enough to rack it back on the lower rack of the bench.  Phew.  Was a bummer though, because I was so close.  Even a single kilo or two less and I would have had it.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on December 04, 2012, 09:17:28 AM
Meanwhile, I got a tad over-eager yesterday and nearly ended up doing "The Roll of Shame".  I was going for a 125kg bench, a full 5 kg increase on my PB.  I did not succeed, and had no spotter (I know, pretty smart of me, but I never use one).  So I was hovering there for what felt like an eternity, about two inches short of locking it out.  I just couldn't do it.  Took me a couple seconds to realize that I had managed to push it up far enough to rack it back on the lower rack of the bench.  Phew.  Was a bummer though, because I was so close.  Even a single kilo or two less and I would have had it.

Call me crazy, but I've found that little things like what I had for breakfast or how much sleep I got the night before could have a huge impact on reaching a PB.  I bet that you'll bang that weight out on a day when you're feeling at your best.  Just get a spotter this time!

On a side note, I'm getting tendonitis in my elbows from doing wide grip pullups.  I think I'm going to do nothing but naturals from now until mid-January and see if I can give my joints a rest.  Anyone else have this issue?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on December 04, 2012, 09:50:13 AM
Meanwhile, I got a tad over-eager yesterday and nearly ended up doing "The Roll of Shame".  I was going for a 125kg bench, a full 5 kg increase on my PB.  I did not succeed, and had no spotter (I know, pretty smart of me, but I never use one).  So I was hovering there for what felt like an eternity, about two inches short of locking it out.  I just couldn't do it.  Took me a couple seconds to realize that I had managed to push it up far enough to rack it back on the lower rack of the bench.  Phew.  Was a bummer though, because I was so close.  Even a single kilo or two less and I would have had it.

Call me crazy, but I've found that little things like what I had for breakfast or how much sleep I got the night before could have a huge impact on reaching a PB.  I bet that you'll bang that weight out on a day when you're feeling at your best.  Just get a spotter this time!

On a side note, I'm getting tendonitis in my elbows from doing wide grip pullups.  I think I'm going to do nothing but naturals from now until mid-January and see if I can give my joints a rest.  Anyone else have this issue?

Not crazy at all...state of mind and what's in your stomach mean a great deal, IMO.

I have only ever gotten tendonitis from preacher curls and the like, but I guess that is a similar movement for the elbow.  Usually just take a short break.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Yoru on December 06, 2012, 03:55:54 AM
Cool, thanks guys. I'll make up a circuit from those. Chairs/stairs/beds are easy enough to use, but I definitely don't have anywhere I can do pullups - a shame, as they're my absolute favorite bodyweight exercise and I include 3 sets of them at the end of every single gym workout I do.

On a side note, I'm getting tendonitis in my elbows from doing wide grip pullups.  I think I'm going to do nothing but naturals from now until mid-January and see if I can give my joints a rest.  Anyone else have this issue?

You could do some straight-arm hangs to maintain grip strength. Very little stress on the elbows, but still gets you a bit of time on the hands and shoulders and stabilizing muscles. Bonus points if want to do leg raises while hanging.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on December 06, 2012, 09:29:25 AM
You could do some straight-arm hangs to maintain grip strength. Very little stress on the elbows, but still gets you a bit of time on the hands and shoulders and stabilizing muscles. Bonus points if want to do leg raises while hanging.

The reason that I've been doing wide grip pull ups is that I want more back work, but bent over rows make me sick to my stomach for some odd reason.  I'm also not a huge fan of cable machines.  Usually, I hang a 25lb plate and do sets of 8 rather than sets of 12 with no body weight.  My gym is closed from Dec 15th to Jan 15th (campus), so I usually just do naturals at home for that month. 



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on December 06, 2012, 11:43:01 AM
I read a good paper a while back that actually looked at the varying degrees of muscle activation with different pull-up grips. Overall there was no significant difference. Wider grip pull ups are more challenging certainly, but the authors of the paper concluded that there was no obvious advantage to picking any one grip over another.

As a result I have stuck with neutral grip chins, partly because it goes easier on my shoulders, but also because I can add on more weight and do a greater range of motion. YMMV.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on December 06, 2012, 12:32:46 PM
I read a good paper a while back that actually looked at the varying degrees of muscle activation with different pull-up grips. Overall there was no significant difference.

My physiology training suggests otherwise.  I'll see if I can find that paper.  

Think about it.  Wide grip pullups are the same motion as lat pull downs. Neutral grip are the same as hammer curls.  Chins are wide grip curls (much like seated rows if you pull your body up with the row motion).  Normal pull-ups emphasize shoulders more (reverse curls).

It's like saying that bench, fly, incline, and decline do the same thing for your pecs.  



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on December 06, 2012, 01:48:00 PM
I'd like to read that paper too but at the moment, I agree with Nebu.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on December 06, 2012, 03:45:04 PM
I read a good paper a while back that actually looked at the varying degrees of muscle activation with different pull-up grips. Overall there was no significant difference.

My physiology training suggests otherwise.  I'll see if I can find that paper.  

Think about it.  Wide grip pullups are the same motion as lat pull downs. Neutral grip are the same as hammer curls.  Chins are wide grip curls (much like seated rows if you pull your body up with the row motion).  Normal pull-ups emphasize shoulders more (reverse curls).

It's like saying that bench, fly, incline, and decline do the same thing for your pecs.  



I get your point, and I'm not going to argue that there's no difference, but as I recall the main summary of the paper was that the net effect across all muscles involved was fairly equal, within confidence intervals. The analogy between pullups and chest exercises is a bit limited as you are working different planes of motion; and I don't really see the analogy between hammer curls and neutral grip. Any pullup you do will incorporate your lats biceps, rhomboids and traps; you can't dramatically isolate or target one of those groups merely by widening or closing your grip, that was the thesis I remember at least.

My personal experience from alternating between neutral and wide is that I can do more weight and a fuller range of motion with neutral grip, which equates the mechanical disadvantage of wider grips and at the end of the day my lats feel equally tired and progress equally fast either way; I just don't get as many cramps and tears on my shoulders.

The paper was in something like Exercise Physiology and Nutrition, I can't remember the exact name, but I'll have a look for it later.

Anyhow, as soon as I find somewhere to hang my rings this whole discussion will become a bit redundant for me.  :grin:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on December 07, 2012, 12:54:43 AM
I have seen that same exact information.  They physically measured the output of each muscle being recruited, and found the differences to be small enough to be insignificant.  For most people, wide grips simply seem like they are working you harder due to the mechanical disadvantage.  Close, neutral grips fool you into believing you are working your biceps far more...simply because you are probably actually doing more reps and/or more weight.  I think this is becoming the new best practice.  Simply do the one that you are best at, which for most people is the close/neutral.

That said!  The current bro-science community doesn't seem fully agree.  Anecdotal experience from more advanced body builders tends to still favor the widegrip stuff for emphasis on the lats, from what I can tell. 

Personally, I don't know.  I tend to alternate between three or four different grips, because why not? 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Yoru on December 07, 2012, 02:40:54 AM
I prefer wide-grip because it feels like it wears my hands out more, and it's easier to cling to the bar using only fingertips overhand rather than underhand.

I doubt most people are just using their fingertips for these though; I do it to build/maintain crimp strength for climbing since I rarely have access to an actual rock simulator.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: proudft on December 07, 2012, 02:50:34 AM
I use fingers only as well.  I started like that to avoid banging up my ring but now that my ring doesn't fit on my fingers anymore I still do it that way just to avoid getting weird callouses.  Close grip, too - I can't even do a single wide grip one compared to my whopping three close ones.   

Pullups have been my slowest-increasing exercise BY FAR.  I keep hoping rows will help them out, I dunno, maybe they are.  It took me like three months to do one, and the third one at the moment involves quite a bit of flailing about.    :ye_gods:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on December 07, 2012, 03:24:36 AM
Well, pull-ups are hard.  Most people can't do them at all, so feel proud(ft) that you can do any.  Try palms in, and see if you can churn out a couple more (you might).

I prefer wide-grip because it feels like it wears my hands out more.

When I first read that, I was all  :uhrr:, but yeah, I guess that makes a lot of sense for a rock climber.  There are otherwise better was to work on your grip, but that seems a rather relevant exercise for you.  Most pros recommend doing all pulling exercises (including heavy things like rows and deadlifts) with your fingers, if for no other reason than to help avoid callouses.  Hard for a lot of people to do, though, because usually you will fail sooner that way.

And Nebu?  You know darn well that close grip pullups/chins are not analogous to hammer curls.  How much do you weigh, 85 kg?  Can you hammer curl that much?  If I weigh myself down, I can just about do a chin up for about 120-125 kg, and there is no way on earth I could curl even 60% of that amount.  Your back muscles are worked like crazy on an ordinary chin up (palms in, close grip), otherwise you would never be able to do one..  I think you know this, but it is worth making it clear if there are others reading this that don't know it.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on December 07, 2012, 06:29:39 AM
I doubt most people are just using their fingertips for these though; I do it to build/maintain crimp strength for climbing since I rarely have access to an actual rock simulator.

We have a fingerboard in my gym, which is sweet for those times when I really want to murder my fingers. I don't know how serious climbers do it to be honest. I really want to have a pegboard (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwAfxkUrZIE) though.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Yoru on December 07, 2012, 07:53:03 AM
I doubt most people are just using their fingertips for these though; I do it to build/maintain crimp strength for climbing since I rarely have access to an actual rock simulator.

We have a fingerboard in my gym, which is sweet for those times when I really want to murder my fingers. I don't know how serious climbers do it to be honest. I really want to have a pegboard (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwAfxkUrZIE) though.

If you're really pushing it, you shouldn't be able to even hold on to a beer or open a door for an hour or so after. After a few weeks of breaking your hands consistently, you can grip some insane shit. Looks like magic to climbing virgins.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on December 07, 2012, 10:07:14 AM
I recommend rugby to break your fingers. Literally.

(I'd link the pics to show why I can only do pull-ups or deadlift with a two fingered grip but they're not pretty.  :grin: )


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: LK on December 07, 2012, 04:07:42 PM
Great stuff here guys. Thanks for all the information. I have been searching for new body-weight exercises to work muscle groups -- walkouts look great and something I will try.

As an addendum, I've found the Perfect Pull-up and its ilk has been useful to getting a pull-up / chin-up routine wherever there is a doorway. Not terribly costly either.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on December 10, 2012, 02:56:32 AM
Deadlift day again yesterday, and this time there happened to be a relatively large crowd around (in a relatively tight space).  When I had 200kg on the bar, there were now people noticably staring at me as I was getting ready for the attempt, including at least one rather hot woman.  That was more pressure than I really needed, thanks.  I think I preferred it without onlookers.  Got it up, thank goodness.  Was hard, but a smidge less so than week, probably because my preceding lift at 180 was done with straps this time, so I had more energy left over.  So I decided that I had enough left for an attempt at 205kg as well.  It might seem kind of insignificant to put two tiny plates on the end of the bar at this point, but I was actually pretty nervous about it.  And for good reason, it turned out.  I did manage to pull it off, but God help me it was a bitch.  I don't think it would be possible for me to put more effort into a lift.  I probably should not have done 200 immediately before.  My form broke down, and I managed it only through sheer force of will.  I may try again next week at the same weight without doing 200 before, just to see if I can get it up with a bit less of a struggle, but beyond that I am not sure I have it in me to go any higher.  It blows my mind that there are human beings that can actually take this much weight, and quite a bit more, and throw it up over their damn heads.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: climbjtree on December 10, 2012, 05:44:34 AM
Yeah dude, it's nuts. 5kg isn't a lot of weight, but it makes a significant difference when you're at your max.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on December 10, 2012, 05:23:09 PM
It blows my mind that there are human beings that can actually take this much weight, and quite a bit more, and throw it up over their damn heads.

I'm the same. When I'm maxing out on some lifts it just seems impossible to me that people could lift so much, with such ease. That 205kg deadlift you could barely move? This is what it looks like when you snatch it (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkPWjpURboQ), or how about a 225kg push press (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdN1Sg4j-Sk). This stuff just amazes me. I know there are some ridiculous powerlifting records, but some roided up freak wrapped up in more kevlar than a US marine, moving a bench press 3inches down and up will never be as impressive as what some of these Olympians do.

 :ye_gods:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on December 12, 2012, 10:56:09 AM
Anyone fancy trying this?   :drill:

(http://i.imgur.com/E0KwT.gif)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Soln on December 16, 2012, 04:37:22 PM
Anyone able to recommend a good running phone app?  I've been using Nike+ for many months, but it's become far too unreliable.  Need a recommendation for a gps + tracker app that won't shit the bed with an audio player.  Thank ye.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Trippy on December 16, 2012, 11:54:10 PM
Which iOS device are you running with? The older ones don't support multitasking which will complicate music playback.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on December 17, 2012, 01:46:22 AM
Prior to getting a Garmin, I used the RunKeeper (http://runkeeper.com/) app and I still upload my data to the RK site.  My racing partner swore by MapMyRun (http://www.mapmyrun.com)'s app. There's also Endomondo (http://www.endomondo.com) which seems to be adding lots of features all the time - it looks like you can now set it up to do intervals and set programs which it didn't used to. I've never used it though but a cycling mate of mine does and likes it.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Soln on December 17, 2012, 02:02:44 PM
Apologies -- this is for Android   :oh_i_see:

Edit: thanks for the good advice DraconianOne


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Trippy on December 17, 2012, 02:15:48 PM
:awesome_for_real:

RunKeeper and Endomondo which DraconianOne mentioned are available on Android as well. So too is MapMyRun though that seems to be getting some negative reviews.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on December 17, 2012, 02:44:35 PM
If you just want solid basic functionality -  mytracks is solid

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.maps.mytracks&feature=nav_result#?t=W251bGwsMSwxLDMsImNvbS5nb29nbGUuYW5kcm9pZC5tYXBzLm15dHJhY2tzIl0.



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on December 20, 2012, 05:38:03 AM
No idea where to put this video so I'll leave it here. It's a short film about the race I did in the summer (http://vimeo.com/55802575#) and really captures the mood, imo. It may or may not be of interest.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on December 22, 2012, 06:58:48 AM
215 kg trapbar deadlift today.  I have grunted noisily at the end of a lift before, but with this one it was a full on "rrrrrrraaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh!" that inadvertently spewed forth from my diaphragm. 

Added another 2.5kg to my best bench a few days ago too, so the creatine fueled gains continue to come.  My body is also craving more calories all of a sudden - it is like your muscles want to catch up to the gains your nervous system is making - so I am eating more and putting on some real weight (as opposed to just water weight).

So everything is fantastic.  Except for my squats, which still fucking suck.  I am running out of ideas.  I think maybe my frame just wasn't made for that movement.  Possibly because of my curved back, I am starting to think.  Or some other mechanical issue.  Don't really know what to do about it, so I am supplementing with some leg presses to see if that will help me bust through a barrier.

Any ideas?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: climbjtree on December 22, 2012, 07:26:58 AM
Nice improvements, dude.

As far as squats go - keep form in mind, and do supplementary exercises to strengthen the muscles that you use when your form goes to shit. What I mean to say is that as you tilt forward onto your toes, or vary from proper form in any way, you put focus on isolated muscle groups. As I understand it, you tend to rely on your stronger muscles when form breaks down and this is why you need to work those smaller muscle groups with supplementary exercises. It helps you maintain form, and form helps you lift weight.

I'm on a 9 week peaking program and have had some decent results so far. I'm currently in week 4, but in the end I'll add 15 pounds to my bench and 25 pounds to my max deadlift and back squat. Have you looked into something like that?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on December 22, 2012, 07:37:56 AM
I haven't, but at this point I am making so many overall gains that I am loathe to change up too much just yet.  That said, I will look into it at some point,  because I'm sure I'll hit a wall soon enough.

As for supplementary exercises, what do you have in mind?  You hit it right on the head with the leaning forward on the toes bit.  What I think happens is that I lean forward, and then my lower back tries to take over and I end up doing that weird good morning movement.  When the weights get heavy, that is...I think my form is pretty good on lighter loads.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: climbjtree on December 22, 2012, 09:54:43 AM
I think once you start to roll onto the ball of your foot, you're isolating the quads.

Go to YouTube and search for "So You Think You Can Squat." It's three parts, about five minutes each, and talks about form and the way the whole thing works. It is a pretty good lesson - you're basically watching a coach while he coaches someone through it. Really informative. I think the coach actually mentions something about not being able to correct your form without doing supplementary movements, if the culprit of bad form is a weak muscle group. I'd link the videos for you, but YouTube loads like shit in Afghanistan.

On leg day, I do the following exercises: Back squat, front squat (really deep with a light load), leg press, Romanian dead lifts, and calf raises. I feel like I have all my bases covered with those.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on December 23, 2012, 01:10:36 PM
Those are pretty good videos. Cheers for that.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: lamaros on December 24, 2012, 02:36:33 PM
Merry Christmas to you all in this thread. It has provided much information and inspiration.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on January 02, 2013, 07:10:25 AM
New Years goal time! 

First, a summary of current goals...

- 400 lb Deadlift:  Passed!  Blew that one away.  When I set that goal for myself a couple years ago (I actually think I set the goal for 380, not sure why), I didn't seriously think I would achieve it.  It seemed like such a stupidly big number.  And it kind of is...I won't set any further DL goals, because it all seems rather crazy once you get past that marker.

- 90 lb (per hand) seated dumbbell shoulder presses:  Failed!  I don't have access to anything over 86 lbs, so this one is officially off the list.  It was rather arbitrary anyway.  I think I only wanted to be able to do it because so few people can do it to begin with.  I stopped doing this exercise anyway, as I didn't seem to be getting anywhere with it.  Have since cleaned and push pressed 225 lbs, which seems a better accomplishment anyway, and definitely a more worthwhile exercise.

- 275 lb bench press:  Okay, this wasn't really a goal until I just failed the attempt two weeks ago (the near Roll of Shame incident).  So I just now put it on my list.  And I achieved it three days ago.  So it is a retroactive goal.  Got a spotter this time, but he didn't have to touch the bar.  Got it up with relative ease.  Funny how things can be so different from one day to the next.

- Physique of a cast member of 300 or Spartacus:  Maybe?  They could cast me as the hornery old Doctore, or that Quasimodo fella.  I am too old, too bald, and considerably less handsome than Gerard Butler.  But I'm not that far off.  This is the official Long Term Goal anyway, so it is a constant work in progress. 

So, new goals...I could talk about a 300 lb bench, because climbjtree can do that and he is sort of my hero.  Maybe that goes on the list.  I need to get my squats up if I can, but I am not sure if these decrepit curved bones are going to let it happen.  330 lbs for reps would be nice, but I don't know.  I am starting to think that my whole training bent is overly focused on strength, and too little on aesthetics.  I am demonstrably stronger than 99% of the people at my gym (family type place, so it isn't like I am competing with Olympians), despite many of them being visibly quite a bit larger than me, including almost all of the scary looking biker dudes with the skull tattoos.  I have very well developed triceps, back and shoulder/delt muscles, but some of my "glory" muscles need work, irrespective of how strong those muscles might actually be.  Pecs, biceps, calves, etc.

So I am thinking of switching over to a pure high rep body building routine very soon to build some real mass and address some of these aesthetic weaknesses.  I don't know.  I am loathe to stop what I am doing, but I doubt I will get much further with it anyway unless I decide to start piling on the extra calories.  And I'm not sure my body responds quite as well to the high rep, lower weight routine.  So, still debating what my next short term goals should be.

What about the rest of you?  If you don't already do it, I find it to be extremely important to have both short and long term goals in mind, and to talk about them with others (like with all you people).  Not only does it help for getting advice, but it forces you to think, study and be accountable for it.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: JWIV on January 02, 2013, 07:23:37 AM
My goals this year is pretty straightforward. 

Don't get injured and

Tackle first full marathon in October.  I've done 3 halves now, and will have a 4th in April/May, so it's time.



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on January 02, 2013, 07:45:38 AM
That's awesome Cyrrex.

I'm a bit lost as far as goals go. Between illness, injury, and work and sporting commitments my gym attendance over the past couple of months has been a bit erratic. I haven't really lost much, but I'm not progressing either. I'm tempted to stick with more of a bodyweight program since that seems more manageable in my current schedule.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Nebu on January 02, 2013, 10:40:38 AM
You guys are amazing.  I need to step up my game if I'm going to be a contributor here.  

All I can say is that I've completely transformed my body to get ready for the sprint triathalon season.  I'm getting to the point in life where I may be able to compete at a high level in my age bracket.  If I can get my run times down without affecting my cycling, then I may be able to place.  I just wish I still lived at altitude.  It would help with my aerobic capacity.  

Keep up the posts guys.  You're great motivation for this old man!


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Merusk on January 02, 2013, 11:54:46 AM
Bleh.. projects blew-up at work from October through the Holidays meaning I simply didn't have the time or energy to go in.  Which also means I put on 15 goddamn pounds. 

My goal is to lose that over the next 3 months.  Long term for the year is simply to get down to 200#.  I don't do marathons or triathlons or any of that because running really kills my left knee. (Hooray improper Breaststroke form)  I don't have any lift goals because I don't want a lot of bulk. 

So yeah.. weight loss is my goal.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Salamok on January 02, 2013, 01:14:00 PM
Bleh.. projects blew-up at work from October through the Holidays meaning I simply didn't have the time or energy to go in.  Which also means I put on 15 goddamn pounds. 

My goal is to lose that over the next 3 months.  Long term for the year is simply to get down to 200#.  I don't do marathons or triathlons or any of that because running really kills my left knee. (Hooray improper Breaststroke form)  I don't have any lift goals because I don't want a lot of bulk. 

So yeah.. weight loss is my goal.

Other than things blowing up this is my story and game plan for the year.  I was pretty faithful about working out from May (230lbs) through the end of October (210lbs) but then the holidays hit and there wasn't much time for any of that and a whole lot of food hanging around (220lbs).

I think I'll wait until mid January before I resume my workouts, hopefully some of the new years resolution crazies will be gone by then.  Maybe my winter fat will assist with another growth spurt in the muscles as I didn't lose a ton of muscle mass during the 2 months off.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Merusk on January 02, 2013, 01:35:46 PM
My experience the last 2 years was they disappeared after the first week and a half, but I also go in to the gym at 5am.  The parking lot remained full after work through at least February.  I suspect that was because it takes that long to go through the smallest trainer package my gyms sells. (8 sessions)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on January 02, 2013, 03:59:57 PM
Bleh.. projects blew-up at work from October through the Holidays meaning I simply didn't have the time or energy to go in.  Which also means I put on 15 goddamn pounds. 

My goal is to lose that over the next 3 months.  Long term for the year is simply to get down to 200#.  I don't do marathons or triathlons or any of that because running really kills my left knee. (Hooray improper Breaststroke form)  I don't have any lift goals because I don't want a lot of bulk. 

So yeah.. weight loss is my goal.

Good luck!

I have two celebrations today - first is that I ran 5 miles outdoors for the first time in three months after injury (hampered this time by astounding NYE hangover and overindulgence) and the second was that my first client has lost 8lbs in his first month of working with me. :drill:  My next challenge is to get him to start doing some regular exercise.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Selby on January 02, 2013, 06:16:04 PM
Bleh.. projects blew-up at work from October through the Holidays meaning I simply didn't have the time or energy to go in.  Which also means I put on 15 goddamn pounds. 

My goal is to lose that over the next 3 months.  Long term for the year is simply to get down to 200#.  I don't do marathons or triathlons or any of that because running really kills my left knee. (Hooray improper Breaststroke form)  I don't have any lift goals because I don't want a lot of bulk. 

So yeah.. weight loss is my goal.
Pretty much what happened to me since October, except no weight gain, just sitting there +/- 1-2lbs.  Plateau'd out at 205 in July and haven't been able to budge from that regardless of how much I work out (or don't).  A friend of mine is really pushing me to lift weights, she said I'll start seeing better results.  My main concern is just taking it slow enough to not damage my back or knee again as those recoveries can take 3-6 months in my experience.  I have been hoping for 195 for the last 2 years and while getting close, something seems to come up and railroad the plans every time.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on January 03, 2013, 02:01:47 AM
Bleh.. projects blew-up at work from October through the Holidays meaning I simply didn't have the time or energy to go in.  Which also means I put on 15 goddamn pounds. 

My goal is to lose that over the next 3 months.  Long term for the year is simply to get down to 200#.  I don't do marathons or triathlons or any of that because running really kills my left knee. (Hooray improper Breaststroke form)  I don't have any lift goals because I don't want a lot of bulk. 

So yeah.. weight loss is my goal.

If you would, define for me what you mean by "bulk"...usually when people say they don't want a lot of bulk, it is a massive misconception of how it all actually works.  Getting "bulky" (by my definition of the word) is actually extremely hard, and only a small percentage of people I see lifting actually get that way, and only through a calculated effort.  Most people are just trying to get a leaner, more muscular physique, and for 9 out of 10 people, that also means trimming down.  By your own admission of your weight issues, that would include you.  We can talk forever about why this is the case, but I will just throw this out there for you:  lifting weights is a far more effective way for you to lose weight and keep it off than what you are probably doing now.  Maybe I am reading too much into your statement of not wanting to set lifting goals, but it would be a mistake for you to dismiss doing any lifting altogether.

Women tend to make this mistake far more often then men, which is a bit ironic considering it is even far more difficult for a woman to get "bulky" (and do I need to point out the irony of overweight people saying the same thing?)  At the risk of sounding a bit dickish, I also think lots of people use it as a smokescreen, because lifting weights is uncomfortable and requires an effort they are unwilling to put in.  Others think that they have to be breathing hard and sweating profusely, otherwise they aren't burning calories, which is patently wrong.  Cardio certainly has it's place, but it isn't the place most people think it is.

Anyway, might be that I am taking your comment out of context, but I think it is an interesting conversation point nonetheless. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: lamaros on January 03, 2013, 03:20:53 AM
My goals are to get my body fat down a bit and put on a little more weight: I'm going for 75kg and sub 15% body fat. It should be achievable pretty easily for me if I can maintain my motivation, as I'm 73kg and about 20% now, so making a plan that keeps me motivated is my first goal!

I'd like to get in to lifting weights, something I have never really done, but don't know where to start. My apartment complex has a gym I can use, but it's somewhat intimidating going in with no knowledge.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Yoru on January 03, 2013, 03:33:10 AM
I've found, after basically ignoring the bodyweight routine I'd written out, that I much prefer lifting weights to equivalent amounts of other exercises. After a point, you have to focus on the lift to keep form and it squeezes all the bullshit of the day out of your mind. Either that or you fail and your spotter has to keep you from splintering yourself into eighteen tiny pieces.

It's kind of like yoga or zen, except with blood and steel instead of patchouli and New Age crock.

Finally getting settled into the new city; I found a gym about 20 minutes walk/5 minutes bike from my place. It's a shitty big-box place, but it looks to have a decent weight area. Looking forward to buying new gym shoes and signing up there this weekend.

(Aside: Wtf is with the explosion in women-only gyms? Of the 8 gyms that I found on Google Maps, 5 were women-only, 2 were MMA clubs, and only this last one was a "real" gym, and I use the term loosely when attaching it to big-box places.)

Anyway, my goal this year is to get back to where I was last summer: 80kg bench, 120kg squat, 120kg deadlift, 3x12 pull-ups, and however much I can punch overhead. After July, I had business trips and guests and moving between countries, so my routine went to shit and I expect I've dropped a fair amount off those highs.

There's also a decent climbing gym in my area for the first time in 5 years, so I might join up there. If I can find a decent climbing partner, I want to work back up to a 5.12a indoors and try to bust my outdoor lead best of 5.10d this summer.

I'd like to get in to lifting weights, something I have never really done, but don't know where to start. My apartment complex has a gym I can use, but it's somewhat intimidating going in with no knowledge.

Sounds like me four years ago. :) Just find a buddy or hire a personal trainer for a few sessions to get the form down and a routine established. Do some Googling, or maybe one of our resident muscle experts can recommend a beginner's program. It's not as bad as you'd think! Go for it.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: proudft on January 03, 2013, 03:34:09 AM
I'd like to get in to lifting weights, something I have never really done, but don't know where to start. My apartment complex has a gym I can use, but it's somewhat intimidating going in with no knowledge.

http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/Starting_Strength_Wiki

I've been doing this for a while - about 9 months total but I had some halfass gear for the first four months until I finally got a rack and some secondhand weights - and have been pretty happy with it.  I did a (common) swap of various rows for the power clean as the miscellaneous weights I put together are standard bar instead of olympic and don't spin.  Plus I'd probably hit the chandelier.  But anyway, I'm still slowly getting up to 'decent' weights on it (my squat/bench are about 115 lbs, deadlift about 140), but the visible results have been really good so far even though I still have a ways to go before I even hit my own weight on the big lifts.  That's the good part about starting from basically nothing, I guess.

But most importantly, it's been the only exercise I've ever done that has kept my interest for more than a week, and thus I kept doing it, and thus results are happening.  It's magical!


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on January 03, 2013, 04:39:29 AM
I'd like to get in to lifting weights, something I have never really done, but don't know where to start. My apartment complex has a gym I can use, but it's somewhat intimidating going in with no knowledge.

http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/Starting_Strength_Wiki

I've been doing this for a while - about 9 months total but I had some halfass gear for the first four months until I finally got a rack and some secondhand weights - and have been pretty happy with it.  I did a (common) swap of various rows for the power clean as the miscellaneous weights I put together are standard bar instead of olympic and don't spin.  Plus I'd probably hit the chandelier.  But anyway, I'm still slowly getting up to 'decent' weights on it (my squat/bench are about 115 lbs, deadlift about 140), but the visible results have been really good so far even though I still have a ways to go before I even hit my own weight on the big lifts.  That's the good part about starting from basically nothing, I guess.

But most importantly, it's been the only exercise I've ever done that has kept my interest for more than a week, and thus I kept doing it, and thus results are happening.  It's magical!


Yes, yes and yes.  This is the defacto starting program.  No need to look elsewhere.  Hopefully you have access to a rack that will allow you to do squats.  Follow the program to the letter.

On Power Cleans (with presses):  I am becoming convinced that these should be considered one of the must-do exercises, provided you have the room to do it.  I wonder about needing the spinning weights, to be honest, but maybe that depends on how heavy the weight is getting, not really sure.  Anyway, it seems a good exercise for getting some more "explosive" power.  It is one of the best trap and upper back exercises you can do, and if you do the push press at the end it might just be the king of all exercises for all-around benefit.  Legs?  Check, especially if you front squat with the heavier weights.  Lower and Upper back?  Fucking Check.  Rear delts, front delts and pecs?  Check.  Abs and core?  Double check.  My recent experience has me pretty much believing that (combined with the creatine intake) cleans & presses are the One Thing that have helped me break through the barriers I had hit.  The deadlifts might be more important overall, but I don't think I would have been able to improve the deads so significantly without these.  You also look bad-ass, because nobody else does them.  They are also waaaaaaaaay more fun that barbell rows.  Also, fuck barbell rows.



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on January 03, 2013, 05:22:15 AM
Doing cleans without an Olympic bar seems like a quick way to ruin your wrists, perhaps you could fudge it at low weights, but I'm cleaning 100kg on good days now and the amount of torque I can feel even with a good bar is noticeable.

Otherwise I second all points. The best thing about starting strength is that it works. The main challenge is to stick with the core problem and get over any worries of how people at a gym might percieve you at the start. I guarantee that if you stick with it for 3-4 months, you will be significantly stronger.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on January 03, 2013, 06:24:48 AM
Doing cleans without an Olympic bar seems like a quick way to ruin your wrists, perhaps you could fudge it at low weights, but I'm cleaning 100kg on good days now and the amount of torque I can feel even with a good bar is noticeable.

Probably true, but I am assuming here that proudft is starting at something around half that weight or even less.  I would think it would be doable, but I am seriously just guessing.  I think the bar already kind of naturally spins a little when you put it into the rack position, so 40 to 50kg probably isn't going to torque your wrists too much.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Merusk on January 03, 2013, 07:35:33 AM
Bleh.. projects blew-up at work from October through the Holidays meaning I simply didn't have the time or energy to go in.  Which also means I put on 15 goddamn pounds.  

My goal is to lose that over the next 3 months.  Long term for the year is simply to get down to 200#.  I don't do marathons or triathlons or any of that because running really kills my left knee. (Hooray improper Breaststroke form)  I don't have any lift goals because I don't want a lot of bulk.  

So yeah.. weight loss is my goal.

If you would, define for me what you mean by "bulk"...usually when people say they don't want a lot of bulk, it is a massive misconception of how it all actually works.  Getting "bulky" (by my definition of the word) is actually extremely hard, and only a small percentage of people I see lifting actually get that way, and only through a calculated effort.  Most people are just trying to get a leaner, more muscular physique, and for 9 out of 10 people, that also means trimming down.  By your own admission of your weight issues, that would include you.  We can talk forever about why this is the case, but I will just throw this out there for you:  lifting weights is a far more effective way for you to lose weight and keep it off than what you are probably doing now.  Maybe I am reading too much into your statement of not wanting to set lifting goals, but it would be a mistake for you to dismiss doing any lifting altogether.

Women tend to make this mistake far more often then men, which is a bit ironic considering it is even far more difficult for a woman to get "bulky" (and do I need to point out the irony of overweight people saying the same thing?)  At the risk of sounding a bit dickish, I also think lots of people use it as a smokescreen, because lifting weights is uncomfortable and requires an effort they are unwilling to put in.  Others think that they have to be breathing hard and sweating profusely, otherwise they aren't burning calories, which is patently wrong.  Cardio certainly has it's place, but it isn't the place most people think it is.

Anyway, might be that I am taking your comment out of context, but I think it is an interesting conversation point nonetheless.  

You're out of context. I'm lifting but I'm not concerned about bulking up enough to do my own weight in bench or stair-stepping, etc.  I work out for an hour, 30 of lifting and 30 of cardio.  When the weights get too easy (i.e. I'm not sore after my 30 mins) I increase the weight by one plate the next workout.

Before October I was at 140# on the chest press machine, 120# on the tricep, 140# on the ab crunch, 150# on the lower back, 140# on the lateral pull-down, 100# on the shoulder press, 320# on the leg press, 140# on the quad and 120# on the hamstring machines.  (Bad knee means quad and hams go up very slowly as that stresses it worse than the leg press)

I do upper body & core one day and legs and core the next.  All exercises are 3x10 and I don't do the "throw it around because if I do it fast it's more effective!" crap.  It's all slow and controlled motions.

I started working out in 2009 at about half of that on everything.  I'm comfortable with the slow increase and it was slowly letting me drop-weight.  I can see abs beneath the fat on my belly, my main problem with weight is overeating and a hyperactive sweet-tooth.  

My wife isn't of any assistance in this despite years of conversations about eating better she still falls back to her white trash diet roots.   (Ez cheese, processed everything and lots of meat - red or white - with few vegetables and those that we have are canned.)  So unless I decide to divorce or make my own meals I know it's going to be a very, very long slog to get to where I want and need to be.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on January 03, 2013, 07:40:06 AM
Cool, gotcha.

My diet is pretty ugly right now, too.  Calorie intake is probably okay, because I am okay with putting on a few kilos right now, but I am eating too much shit.  Too much snacking.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: DraconianOne on January 03, 2013, 08:13:08 AM
My wife isn't of any assistance in this despite years of conversations about eating better she still falls back to her white trash diet roots.   (Ez cheese, processed everything and lots of meat - red or white - with few vegetables and those that we have are canned.)  So unless I decide to divorce or make my own meals I know it's going to be a very, very long slog to get to where I want and need to be.

Does your wife do all the food shopping? What would happen to your relationship if you decided to make your own meals or not eat EZ Cheese?


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: proudft on January 03, 2013, 10:06:55 AM
Doing cleans without an Olympic bar seems like a quick way to ruin your wrists, perhaps you could fudge it at low weights, but I'm cleaning 100kg on good days now and the amount of torque I can feel even with a good bar is noticeable.

Probably true, but I am assuming here that proudft is starting at something around half that weight or even less.  I would think it would be doable, but I am seriously just guessing.  I think the bar already kind of naturally spins a little when you put it into the rack position, so 40 to 50kg probably isn't going to torque your wrists too much.

My overhead press is about 80 lbs right now (36 kgs), so you have guessed pretty well.  And yeah, the rows totally suck.  I did bent-over for a while but when the weight got up to around 150 I couldn't keep my back from humping even though my arms/upper back could have totally done more weight so I switched to Pendley and am bringing the weight back up on that.  (I have a tendency when something doesn't look right to me to drop the weight to 80% next time and start working back up by 2.5 lbs - my squat has been the biggest sufferer of this, but hey I'm aged and not injured, yet).



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on January 04, 2013, 04:35:44 PM
None of those numbers are shabby, and you're being sensible to focus on form over everything else. If you have patience it will pay off for you. Too many folks rush their lifts and get frustrated or bored when they don't get any benefit.

On another note, all of you need to start doing this exercise (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpKjmJjkCWg)  :drill:


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on January 05, 2013, 09:37:23 AM
 :ye_gods:



Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on January 09, 2013, 06:52:57 AM
Okay, so I had a strange little epiphany the other day.  You have by this point read my whining about my relatively terrible squatting.  My previous max was something around 135 kg, and it probably wasn't the easiest rep I'd ever done.  True max with a perfect rep was probably more like 130 if I have to be honest with myself.  I have been fretting endlessly over it, and have felt like the squat has been winning the battle against my psyche.  So for a change, I have been doing them in the Smith Machine, to see if I could build up more power without fear of failure, and just get a general confidence boost.  I didn't feel it was working.  I just don't like the Smith Machine...for anything, really.  None of the movements feel natural to me at all.  Probably because they aren't.  My time with the Smith has just proven to me that I should avoid it at all costs.  Le sigh.

Towards the end of last week, I decided to go back to the real squat bar.  I am at a new gym (better, yet older equipment.  Waaaay more hawt ladies), and they don't have a traditional power rack.  It's rather a big ass station where you can attach these monster safety pins out from it's pillars.  The pins are a bit of a pain, and nobody ever uses them, probably because absolutely less than 1% of them are squatting correctly and none of them are pushing themselves.  Not wanting to buck the trend, I did not put the pins on and started warming up.  First couple of sets felt good, so I decided to warmup to a couple of singles.  Got up to 125 and had no problem with it at all.  Why not do a rep at 135, I asked myself.  Had been a couple months since I had been squatting that heavy outside of the Smith.  It went down deep and back up perfectly.  I found I had more in my, so I did another set of 3 at 135, which would constitute a clear personal best.  It was heavy, but I managed all three reps quite nicely.  Then I did another set of 2, no problem.  Then another single after that.  Then worked my way back down, decreasing weight and increasing reps.  The whole thing was odd, due to how (relatively) easy it was all of a sudden.  WTF?  My confidence was instantly restored.  I was really trying to concentrate on keep my back totally rigid, and pushing through my heals.

Back at the gym yesterday, 4 or 5 days later.  Going to squat again.  This time, I'm looking forward to it because raawwrrr.  Put the pins on this time, as I have a feeling I'll be pushing my limit today.  Did my warm-ups up to a 135 single, all was good.  Said "fuck it" and put the bar to 145kg.  Down and up.  Said "fuck it" again, and bumped it up to 150kg.  That's a lot of weight to rack on your shoulders, feels like it is going to squish you.  Got it down, and got it back up.  It probably wasn't beautiful (I probably squat-morninged it a tiny bit), but I am counting it. 

So, something of a breakthrough, and I can't really explain it.  I said only a week ago that I'd be thrilled if I could get 150kg for reps.  Seems well within reason all of a sudden.  Best of all, I can now go back to the gym with the mindset that I am going to utterly rape the squat bar, and not the other way around.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on January 09, 2013, 06:58:03 AM
And to add something to the general discussion, here's something from T Nation which I find pretty interesting.  Can't remember if we've done this before.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/how_much_can_you_lift_wimp (http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/how_much_can_you_lift_wimp)

Basically, how much you should roughly be lifting based on the value of any single lift.  For example, you can calculate from the following indexes if you use your Deadlift as the base:

   Index
Deadlift   100
Squat   71,4
Bench press   55,6
Pull-up   55,6
Hang Clean   45
Dumbbell bench   43
One arm row   43
Push Press   40
DB Incline   40
DB OHP   32,5
Hammer Curl   31,5
DB Curl   30
BB Curl   30
Skull Crusher   24
Pec Fly   20

As ever, take it with a grain of salt, but I find stuff like this useful in determining what needs work.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: climbjtree on February 13, 2013, 10:46:29 AM
Well, my first post of the new year and some goals have been met. These are all my current maxes, but I'm benching 330, DL'ing 415, and can deep squat 405 all pretty reliably with no belts or wrist straps or anything.

I've also ventured into the realm of Olympic lifts a bit more and currently I'm addicted to snatches (insert joke here). If I can master the full hip extension and if I man up and catch the weight lower, I thin the weight will skyrocket.

Here's 175 lbs, feel free to critique: http://db.tt/ORU6HSuT (http://db.tt/ORU6HSuT)


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: K9 on February 13, 2013, 10:52:02 AM
That's an impressive snatch weight man, grats. Are you using straps for that? If you are I'd recommend dropping them in favour of chalk. I used to snatch with straps, but I have had one or two near-misses with snatches where I have had to ditch the bar backwards, and the prospect of being dragged down with it scared me off them. I still sue them for heavy DL and cleans, although even there I'm starting to prefer chalk as my grip strength improves.

As you say, olympic lifts are all about technique, get that down (it's hard) and you can put up some silly numbers.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: climbjtree on February 13, 2013, 11:01:24 AM
Thanks dude! Those are just wraps for wrist support and my hands are chalked up. I'd be too nervous if I felt like I was attached to the bar... seems like you'd just be asking for an injury.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on February 15, 2013, 02:45:39 AM
Dude, that's one nice snatch you got there. :drill: 

And 1150 lbs total for the Big Three is damn impressive.  I am hugely jealous of your bench, but even more so your squat.


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: climbjtree on February 15, 2013, 03:49:10 AM
There's the joke I was looking for! And thanks dude. I am lucky in that physical fitness is a requisite of my job and I am afforded ample time to work on improving. We've also got trainers and nutritionists and coaches to tell us how to keep those improvements coming. So in the end, there's nothing to be jealous of - you're knocking out gangster lifts without the support that I've got! If anything I'm envious!


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: Cyrrex on February 15, 2013, 05:51:36 AM
While we're on the subject of jealousy, here's a few more things I could wish for:

-That I could go back in time and start this whole weightlifting thing as a younger man.  It's just too easy to put on extra fat at this age, and too hard to grow muscles.  It's also harder to find the time.
-That I worked out at a place where I could use chalk.  Never tried it.
-That I worked out at a place where dropping weights was allowed.  Can't push the cleans as much as I want to, and have to abstain from the snatch entirely (heh).

Nearing 40 years of age now, with a body weight around 180, and my Big Three is somewhere between 1040 and 1065.  I suppose I should be happy with that, but I guess I'm not entirely. 


Title: Re: So. P90X anyone? (Misery loves company)
Post by: slog on February 15, 2013, 01:29:19 PM
While we're on the subject of jealousy, here's a few more things I could wish for:

-That I could go back in time and start this whole weightlifting thing as a younger man.  It's just too easy to put on extra fat at this age, and too hard to grow muscles.  It's also harder to find the time.
-That I worked out at a place where I could use chalk.  Never tried it.
-That I worked out at a place where dropping weights was allowed.  Can't push the cleans as much as I want to, an