Terminator: Salvation

[Samwise]

There wouldn't be a John Connor at all if not for Skynet's meddling.  Remember, John's dad is the guy who got sent back in the first movie to protect his mother.  So if Skynet hadn't sent that first Terminator back to stop John from being born, Kyle Reese would never have gone back either, and Sarah Connor would never have gotten knocked up in the first place.

Skynet = epic fail.

[Tebonas]

I still think its possible the original John Connor was not sired by Kyle. He just replaced the original Daddy that didn't get a shot at Sarah because she was running from killer robots instead of hanging around in a bar looking for a hookup. Anybody ever saw a picture of Vanilla John Connor?

[Merusk]

No.

This is a temporal paradox.. something that makes physicists rage, but always seems perfectly logical to storytellers and nutjobs like me.   Yes, it was a self-fulfilling prophecy, and there is no way in a reality where John Connor exsists - in any form - to avoid Judgement Day and Skynet's rise to power.

"There is no destiny but what we make" is a falsehood in this reality. There are certain events that must happen for J.C. to exsist, up to and including Skynet's defeat and humans figuring out how to time travel.

[Tebonas]

You say that, but there is nothing in the movies that makes this the only possibility.

Sarah Connor got pregnant around the time Kyle was sent back. Sarah (who was the only person deciding on the name) called her first son John.

Those are the only known facts true in every future.

[Geki]

See, this is the crappy thing about all of this speculation.  The damn movie won't be half as good as the half-baked theories people here have come up with on here.

[DraconianOne]

You say that, but there is nothing in the movies that makes this the only possibility.

Sarah Connor got pregnant around the time Kyle was sent back. Sarah (who was the only person deciding on the name) called her first son John.

Those are the only known facts true in every future.

That's really very tenuous. The implication is quite clear - Kyle Reese fathered John Connor. There's no allusion to Sarah Connor sleeping around - the script even implies that she's trying to get a boyfriend (she gets stood up which is why she doesn't go out with Ginger and an unfilmed scene shows her flirting with a guy in a gym before that).

The whole of the Terminator series is predicated on the the fact that it's all paradoxical. Skynet was developed using technology recovered from the Terminator that got sent back in time. If the Terminator hadn't come back then there would have been no Skynet, no Judgement Day, no time displacement machine and no Terminator to send back in time. Similarly, Kyle Reese was sent back in time by John Connor to nominally to protect his mother from the Terminator but also to become his father.

What you said about Sarah being the only person to choose the name? Even that's referred to in the script: Reese tells Sarah all about what John Connor was like. Sarah says "Well, at least I know what to name him."

On a side note, there must still be time travel in the new film. Watching the first trailer back again, the first words out of Sam Worthington's mouth are "What day is it? What year?" As the last trailer implied that he didn't know he was a Replicant Terminator, I'm guessing he's an even more advanced Terminator sent back from the future of the future.

[Tebonas]

Damn, there goes my explanation why the future savior of mankind sucks that much in Terminator 3. Screwed up genetic material was my only chance.

[Ironwood]

Terminator 3 ?  What's that ?

[lamaros]

Terminator 3 ?  What's that ?

Does no one else appreciate it, if only for the wonderful 'Relax. Relax!' line?

[stray]

Umm, well, I think Nick Stahl is one of the better actors in his age range (the guy who played John Connor), but that movie didn't really display anything bad or good about him.

Kristanna Loken is hot, of course.

"Talk to the hand" was actually funny.

The trailer/truck chase scene though was the only truly worthy thing about it.

[lamaros]

Umm, well, I think Nick Stahl is one of the better actors in his age range (the guy who played John Connor), but that movie didn't really display anything bad or good about him.

Kristanna Loken is hot, of course.

"Talk to the hand" was actually funny.

The trailer/truck chase scene though was the only truly worthy thing about it.

Maybe I said it the wrong way. I thought the film was absolute shit in pretty much every way. Apart from the 'Relax. Relax!' bit which was (unintentionally?) hilarious to me and a few of my friends.

[stray]

Actually, I don't even remember that. That chase scene sticks out though. I'm a sucker for that kind of shit. I've seen the last 15 minutes of the Road Warrior in a greater proportion over the actual movie Road Warrior. Probably the greatest movie ever made.. the last 15 minutes, that is.

[UnSub]

Terminator 3 ?  What's that ?

Someone's poor (and misogynistic) attempt to turn the Terminator series into a date film.

[stray]

Well, say what you want about Cameron, but taking him out of the picture will do that to a Terminator movie. And may very well do it to this new one.

[DraconianOne]

Someone's poor (and misogynistic) attempt to turn the Terminator series into a date film.

What made it misogynistic? The fact that the T-X was a female?

[Megrim]

The fact that it was uselessly female. It brought nothing to the film except tits. To be fair, it will always be a long shot topping the liquid metal killing machine in relevant originality.

[Riggswolfe]

I still think its possible the original John Connor was not sired by Kyle. He just replaced the original Daddy that didn't get a shot at Sarah because she was running from killer robots instead of hanging around in a bar looking for a hookup. Anybody ever saw a picture of Vanilla John Connor?

Wrong. Another significant plotpoint is that Kyle fell in love with Sarah because of the picture that John had given him. The same picture she takes at the end of the movie as she is driving to Mexico or wherever. A major theme of that first movie is that Skynet is creating the very events that leads to its own defeat. And yes, "There is no Fate but what you make" is a falsehood in the movie. Really, in the Terminator universe there is a period of about 3 decades that is very BSGish. "It has happened before and will happen again."

[UnSub]

Someone's poor (and misogynistic) attempt to turn the Terminator series into a date film.

What made it misogynistic? The fact that the T-X was a female?

As Megrim said. Also to add: every time the T-800 came up against the T-X, he beat the crap out of her for a while, only for the T-X to then pull an easy win. In "T2" the fights were a lot more give-and-take. I'm especially thinking of the T-800 vs T-X fight in the toilet, where the T-X gets put through everything and her head into a toilet at one stage. For a more advanced model (and, theoretically, one who can ice T-1000s with ease) the T-X sure liked being slapped around.

[stray]

No point in defending yourself if you can just regenerate. Just wait for the path of least resistance to finally strike. I don't see misogyny. Isn't that like a rule for all indestructible characters? I mean, even Superman just lets people shoot him in the face. The T-800 itself doesn't give a shit about defending much either against human opponents.

[lamaros]

No point in defending yourself if you can just regenerate. Just wait for the path of least resistance to finally strike. I don't see misogyny. Isn't that like a rule for all indestructible characters? I mean, even Superman just lets people shoot him in the face. The T-800 itself doesn't give a shit about defending much either against human opponents.

You might have a point if they were both male, or genderless. But they're not.

[Triforcer]

Summary:

PEOPLE WHO LIKE BRINGING POLITICS INTO ENTERTAINMENT: "Anytime anything slightly bad ever happens to a woman/minority/gay person on television/movies (or, in comedies, if any person in any of said groups is made fun of in the slightest way) this proves the show/movie is racist/sexist/homophobic."

EVERYONE ELSE:  "Umm, no.  Entertainment in TV/movies is derived from both dramatic conflict and funny situations.  Thus, unless the media in question is a documentary on carefully multicultural and gender-equal groups of volunteers bandaging wounded puppies in Africa, things will happen to actors."

PEOPLE WHO LIKE BRINGING POLITICS INTO ENTERTAINMENT:  "....the fact that you won't recognize the racism/sexism/homophobia is ALSO PROOF that entertainment is racist/sexist/homophobic!!" 

[Samwise]

Just the sort of patriarchal dogma I'd expect from someone whose handle is a homonym for "Try, force her."

[Triforcer]

Well played, sir.  My masters at the male-centric patriarchic maleocracy will not be pleased. 

[ahoythematey]

No point in defending yourself if you can just regenerate. Just wait for the path of least resistance to finally strike. I don't see misogyny. Isn't that like a rule for all indestructible characters? I mean, even Superman just lets people shoot him in the face. The T-800 itself doesn't give a shit about defending much either against human opponents.

You might have a point if they were both male, or genderless. But they're not.

Their appearance is gender-based, but they are not.

[Abagadro]

The only scene that smacked a bit of misogyny (and *gasp* art/entertainment can be political/sociological) was the face in the toilet as it was rather gratuitous (and well-known misogynist Arnold has been quoted as saying he wanted an old turd in the bowl but that the director wouldn't go for it).

[lamaros]

No point in defending yourself if you can just regenerate. Just wait for the path of least resistance to finally strike. I don't see misogyny. Isn't that like a rule for all indestructible characters? I mean, even Superman just lets people shoot him in the face. The T-800 itself doesn't give a shit about defending much either against human opponents.

You might have a point if they were both male, or genderless. But they're not.

Their appearance is gender-based, but they are not.

That changes everything!! 

I will amend my misguided ways and sign up to the belief that apolitical entertainment is the basis by which all film and TV is created (and should be related to). Will I get some kind of sticker I can put on my car?

[ahoythematey]

I was not disputing the accusations of misogyny, but instead merely stating that some are losing their shit over a movie about cyborgs fighting each other.  Must be tough walking through life with a kneejerk reaction to everything.  How many times do you slam your car into the person driving in front of you when they accidentally wait at a green light?  But only if they are white and male, right?  Anything else would be race/sex-based violence, amirite?

[lamaros]

I was not disputing the accusations of misogyny, but instead merely stating that some are losing their shit over a movie about cyborgs fighting each other.  Must be tough walking through life with a kneejerk reaction to everything.  How many times do you slam your car into the person driving in front of you when they accidentally wait at a green light?  But only if they are white and male, right?  Anything else would be race/sex-based violence, amirite?

You forgot ideological.

It's ok, things are and can be political, there's no need to get into a tizz everytime someone suggests that it might be the case. It's far more knee-jerk to run around screaming (a la Triforcer) that things aren't political whenever someone else seems to think they are than to just go "hmm, so you thought there was misogony there? I didn't pick that up so I'm not sure if I agree" and just move on.

I was pointing out that at some point a decision was made to represent the T-X as a female, regardless if they are technically genderless, and that as a result of that people can pretty ligitimatly read the Arnie -T-X relationship as a male - female one, and interpret that interchange however they want.

I still want my "film is apolitical!" sticker, though.

[stray]

Even if her gender wasn't just appearances, the last thing that'd come to my mind is it being misogynistic. The character is a fucking terminator! How on earth is beating the shit out of one misogynistic? Just like Kyle Reese was with the T-800, or the T-800 was with the T-1000, you basically can not relax in trying to deter it.  Do what you can to stop it, and get the fuck out of there. And Loken's character, I guess, is the most advanced one to date. A model created to physically overpower other terminators, able to bring weapons through the time portal, able to hack into other terminator models, able to be more deceptive and switch identities, etc.. There's nothing weak or victim like about either the character or Loken's performance, and the character is just written to be that hard to damage or ward off. You're supposed to want to see Arnold do what he can to incapacitate it, and get John Connor to safety. No different than the T-1000. And the only reason why it's a woman is because they already did the small guy angle with Robert Patrick. It's not particularly originally over that idea, but making the T-X a female is simply to provide the same contrast as T-2. Nothing more. If that is inherently considered misogynistic, to have men and women fighting at all, then so be it. I don't personally believe so. Women aren't inherently weaker than men in my mind. Just different.

[UnSub]

I'm fine with films that feature men and women smacking the crap out of each other. Such a thing isn't inherently misogynistic. Take "Watchmen": the film isn't misogynistic (in my view) because both male and female characters are given equal powers when fighting. The attempted rape of Silk Spectre is dealt with and has consequences for all concerned. Or Rorschach's Frank Miller-esque view of women because it is explained in the narrative why he's like that.

Now, take the T-X. Supposedly the most advanced Terminator yet, complete with magic powers of remote car / electronics control, but every fight with the T-800 saw her get her ass handed to her up to the 'I win now' moment. Compared to "T2", the T-1000 vs. T-800 fights were a lot more balanced and equally rough on both combatants. And, as mentioned: the head in the toilet bit in "T3".

On top of this they then turned John Connor into a pussy who needed Clare Danes to basically tie his shoelaces. "T2" had a strong female because she showed she was a strong female. "T3" had a wussy mommy's boy who needed a woman to pull him around and the least effective Terminator to date.

I think we can all agree that "Terminator 3" wasn't a bright spot for the franchise. Except for the DVD extra that explained why all the T-800s look like Arnie. That was great.

Bad stuff can happen to women (or homosexuals, or minorities, or whatever). That's fine and perhaps it might be dramatic. However, when the film appears to be cheering on the bad stuff that is happening to those people then it really isn't acceptable. (EDIT: unless that's what you want to watch, of course. But you shouldn't really be surprised when "Isla, She-Wolf of the SS" isn't exactly full of uplifting female role models.)

[stray]

I've never seen the T3 DVD extras.. What was it that they said about Arnold's appearance?

I know that John Connor sent him back as is in T3 because the young John would still be nostalgic about him. Not sure about the reasons in T2. I just remember he first scared the shit out of Sarah Connor. I remember in T1's flashback's though, there was that T-800 who raided that camp, and while he was bulky, he didn't look like Arnold. And aren't the terminator models in the TV series basically T-800's? I think River just looks the way she does because John can claim her as his sister or something.

[DraconianOne]

Bad stuff can happen to women (or homosexuals, or minorities, or whatever). That's fine and perhaps it might be dramatic. However, when the film appears to be cheering on the bad stuff that is happening to those people then it really isn't acceptable.

Does that mean that women can't be the bad guys (or gals - whatever)? In a goodie/baddie situation, surely you would always cheer on the good guy? If the baddie happens to be female or coloured or Welsh, does that automatically mean that the film is prejudiced against that minority rather than just that person?

[Ironwood]

Awesome thread turns retarded.  News at 11.


The only thing I want to add is that I originally thought that the Lokken Terminator would be crap at the infiltration bit.  There's a bunch of beaten and dirty and dishevelled women hanging around a death camp and in pops Lokken looking like, well, that. 

You wouldn't even need the fucking dogs, would you ?

Then I watched the TV series and found out that all the surviving women of the future are hotties.

Hmmm.

[DraconianOne]

Awesome thread turns retarded.  News at 11.

How so?

[Ironwood]

I'm old fashioned :  I find a discussion on why a blockbuster movie would cast a Tits and Ass Terminator retarded.

Sorry.