Patch 1.0.6 - Highlights and more

[Nebu]

Are you telling me you're shocked that Mythic has crash bugs and missed the primary point of the game?  At least I had reasonable expectations. 

Are these reasonable?  Given the state of MMO development and shitty products being rushed to market, they are reasonable.  The point of the comments here is really that the MMO consumer market is still all too willing to accept this shit as being "normal" and the cost of entry.  Demand more as a consumer and you're likely to get more... at least if enough consumers act responsibly.

When people stop forgiving developers for this shit then maybe we'll see it less.  /shrug. 

[Lakov_Sanite]

It's really quite simple, put out an inferior product and you get <200k subs, put out a quality product and you get >11mil

Wow was not some fluke miracle and every mmo company since has treated it as such to their own discredit. Blizzard put in a lot of time and money and used some of the best people they could find and it's paid off. I honestly don't know why other companies are willing to go with any less than that these days.

Warhammer, had it been given the same amount of time/money/polish/skill as wow could have been a truly great game. Not just good, not ok, it could have been a great contender that easily broke a couple million. Instead though Mythic made their game just like they made daoc.

The MMO market HAS grown and evolved, people DO want and expect better games now, the only ones who haven't realized this are the companies themselves. Numbers show this consistently that while the market has grown, the market for old school philosophy mmo's has not.

[tolakram]

Are these reasonable?  Given the state of MMO development

No, I should have said realistic not reasonable.  I feared Mythic would do this so I set my expectations accordingly.  I am a player who will play an unfinished game if it's fun, crashes and all.  I'm not convinced that WoW has raised the bar (or all the bars) but that's a topic for another thread ... and I really don't have anything worthwhile to add that hasn't already been said there.

Can an unfinished game be a huge success?  Probably not
Can a game released unfinished but then finished slowly pull in more people and become a success?  no idea
Is Mythic on the road to success?  I don't think so.  edit - change to no idea
If there was any reasonable competition to WAR would it have already failed?  I think so

Success = enough people to make a profit

[ashrik]

hehe I'm still playing it and enjoying it

[HaemishM]

Are you telling me you're shocked that Mythic has crash bugs and missed the primary point of the game? 

Because I played really real actual money currency straight cash for the game, yes, I am absolutely shocked and disappointed that the game has crash bugs and missed the primary point of the game. It doesn't matter if I expected it. Hell, I called the whole empty PQ's thing in the preview weekend. The point is that we all paid money to play this game, and we SHOULD expect that at its very base, the game shouldn't be facefuckingly borken.

That's what alpha and beta are for.

[Hindenburg]

OK.

Tolakram is reverse trolling you all.

[Morfiend]

Going to SirBruce this quickly.

Can an unfinished game be a huge success?  Probably not

Yes, if it gets finished. See below.

Can a game released unfinished but then finished slowly pull in more people and become a success?  no idea

Yes, see EVE Online and to some extent WoW. Also DAoC. I think a better question is if a game releases in the current MMO climate unfinished and unfun, can those both be patched in and have it become a success? Wether people want to admit it or not, every game released right now is going to be compared to WoW "Right Now".

Is Mythic on the road to success?  I don't think so.  edit - change to no idea

I think a lot is hinging on 1.1, guess we will see what happens. Pretty much every one I know is in a "I am waiting to see what happens in 1.1" mode. I think if 1.1 isn't a very good patch, you will see another large drop in subs. ~20%.

If there was any reasonable competition to WAR would it have already failed?  I think so

LotRO? WoW? EVE, CoX, FFO?

Or do you mean more specifically, a newly released PVP focused MMO?

Success = enough people to make a profit

I would say that is not always true. If a game aims way to high, and is constantly talking up how good they are, and how well they are going to do, and then fail to measure up, they will be a failure in the eyes of the public, while still possibly being a commercial success.

[ashrik]

OK.

Tolakram is reverse trolling you all.

Yeah, no shit. But that doesn't mean we can't have fun either.

[tolakram]

Or do you mean more specifically, a newly released PVP focused MMO?

PVP focused MMO; RvR.

[Soulflame]

Are you telling me you're shocked that Mythic has crash bugs and missed the primary point of the game?  At least I had reasonable expectations.  Next you'll be telling me you thought crafting would be something special because MJ designed it himself. *cough*   Oh, and I suppose that because of ToA Mythic would never ever design anything resembling gear grind.  Shocking!

This game will never be the game I wanted it to be, ever.  It may become something I can enjoy for a few more months ...

Point noted about the train wreck, there really is nothing wrong with continually making fun of Mythic at every opportunity.  I had a fanboy moment, but I'm all better now.

No, we are highly amused that you are willing to bend over, and take a few shots in your wallet, for the sake of some nebulous "they'll fix it in the FUTARE!!!!!!!"  I won't pay for a sub-standard MMOG.  Nor, apparently, will most of the rest of the posters here.  So, your abberance is being treated with delight.  Not because you believe you can ressurect Tinkerbell simply by clapping hard enough, but because naivety is just so darned cute!  And therefore must be crushed at once.

[tolakram]

Posts: 8   naivety

Do you know what that word means?  Are people angry because they don't think enough canceled?


edit:  relevance

[Morfiend]

Posts: 8   naivety

Do you know what that word means?  Are people angry because they don't think enough canceled?


edit:  relevance

Awww, a post count jab. How cute.

[Xerapis]

Dammit, Schild shut the door a few seconds too late, looks like.

Seriously, though.

We don't do that "post count = personal worth" bullshit here.

Take it back to teh Vault or wherever you brought it from and leave it there.

[angry.bob]

Awww, a post count jab. How cute.

From a Guy who's been here a month, and at Soulflame no less. Assuming it's the actual Soulflame, the total weight of his postcount ac cross the different diaspora boards would generate enough gravity to prevent light from escaping. This is an example of what I was talking about earlier.

[schild]

Posts: 8   naivety

Do you know what that word means?  Are people angry because they don't think enough canceled?


edit:  relevance

What in the bloody hell is this? Doesn't matter. Have a good life.

[tolakram]

Apologies for the post count reference.   

Besides that, what was it I did wrong again ... discuss the game in terms people disagreed with?   Entertainment till 1.1 comes out.

[schild]

Whoops, looks like I forgot to activate the Ban. Is activated now!

[Lakov_Sanite]

Whoops, looks like I forgot to activate the Ban. Is activated now!

If that was unintentional, genious.

[Arthur_Parker]

We should be able to gold mine threads.  Anyone else think he was lucky to get banned before Soulflame saw what he said?

[Sheepherder]

Whoops, looks like I forgot to activate the Ban. Is activated now!

Anyways, back in the general direction of the topic.

Somehow I think that the hardcore grind is going to come back and bite Mythic a second time when people start resubbing to see the next big patch.  Presumably changes to classes and mechanics will have a fairly big impact on how things play by then, which might leave some people dissatisfied with their class as their role has been deflated or drastically changed but unable or unwilling to level a new class.  Sometimes the "I've gotten this far..." response can work against you.

[rk47]

Lost Vale. 5 Day Timer. 13 Bosses. Need I say more?

I've made up my mind. Not resubbing past december. 6 more days I think. Gonna give 1.1 a look see and be done with it.

[Special J]

I've gone back and read the past couple pages, and I still have no clue what the fuck tolakram was getting at.

[Threash]

I've gone back and read the past couple pages, and I still have no clue what the fuck tolakram was getting at.

He was pointing out we were the ones with the problem for not expecting to get raped in the ass when buying a mythic product, while he was the smart one because he was already bent over and spreading his cheeks.  In a weird sadomasochistic way it sorta made sense.

[Soulflame]

I'm still laughing.  Although it would have been entertaining to flame A_Mythic_Fanboi, I think this resolution is far better.  My god, a postcount below 10, how could I have anything worth saying?!   

As for 1.1, I see that Mythic is stubbornly refusing to ease the Tier 3 grind.  My account remains canceled, and is likely to stay that way.

[Zzulo]

They buffed Tier 3 xp in the first month, I think. And tier 4.

[ghost]

They buffed Tier 3 xp in the first month, I think. And tier 4.

Clearly not enough.

[Soulflame]

After a night of getting booted into lava, I realized it'd take 36+ more hours of Tor Anroc to get to level 32, and this was after nearly getting to rank 25.  According to what I've read, at level 32, I'd be utterly useless in Tier 4, but I'd be shoved in with the geared 40s, and I'd like it!  Or, you know, not.  As I was playing a shaman, the PvE grind was not really an option, as I have little taste for grinding away at a mob/minute, while praying heavily for no adds.

On top of that, what little RvR I've seen consisted of staying out of LoS of the other guys, or I'd be instantly incinerated.  It was impossible to stand on walls and do anything, because doing so puts you in LoS of their ranged, and likely out of LoS of the healer.  The LoS checks made all heals other than group/AE heals mostly useless.  And the idea of repeatedly taking undefended BOs/Keeps just doesn't really appeal to my sense of "War is everywhere."  Or, what my sense of what oRvR should consist of.

Add on my sheer distaste for grinding away at obtaining gear sets, in a game poorly designed for it, and it's amazing I even made it to 24 on my "main".  I should have realized the game was absurdly bad when I started my first alt at level 16 or so, and probably had as much time on alts as I did on my poor abandoned shaman at the end.

All in all, Warhammer is a bad game.  There are some great ideas buried in that pile of suck, but Mythic will not be able to pull them out in a short enough timespan to matter to anyone other than the diehards.  The rest of the potential playerbase is moving on.

[ashrik]

I've got to say I've been in the most RvR of my subscription-life in the past 2-ish weeks. It's been going on every evening/night, without fail, on Praag. The grind still sucks, I'll never get to 40. Doing every quest available in a zone should be more than enough to level. Hell, a single full quest hub should be a ding or near-enough to one.

[Nebu]

All in all, Warhammer is a bad game.  There are some great ideas buried in that pile of suck, but Mythic will not be able to pull them out in a short enough timespan to matter to anyone other than the diehards.  The rest of the potential playerbase is moving on.

I'm going check back in 6 months... if it's still running.

[Merusk]

It's really quite simple, put out an inferior product and you get <200k subs, put out a quality product and you get >11mil

Wow was not some fluke miracle and every mmo company since has treated it as such to their own discredit. Blizzard put in a lot of time and money and used some of the best people they could find and it's paid off. I honestly don't know why other companies are willing to go with any less than that these days.

Because they convinced themselves it WAS a fluke.  When WoW first hit 2-3 million the devs of other games already began their posturing.  Saying that WoW was a fluke, it was based purely on the mass of "Blizzard" gamers out there and had nothing to do with MMO-ville.  Fuck, several people here called them on that bullshit back in '05 when it started, but it still continues to happen. 

The 'established' companies hold, with an almost evangelical fervor, that there's nothing wrong with the way they do things.  The problem lies not in the shitty coding, the broken promises, rushed patches and over all retarded gameplay decisions but in the players themselves and the publishers "pushing things out too early."

So, instead of trying or thinking smaller in terms of playerbase and promises, delivering on those promises and doing it WELL they quit the scene.  Moving on to smaller projects while grumbling that Blizzard took over and there's no way they can compete so it's not worth trying.  *THIS* is why you don't see any "big" MMOs out on the horizon anymore.  Everyone "knows" they can't win, so they aren't even going to try.

[waffel]

I wonder what would have happened if Mythic never sucked the EA cock and got bought out. Mythic announced in May of 05 that they were starting work on a new MMO with the Warhammer IP, and they were bought out by EA in June of 06.

No doubt EA pushed the game to release early. I just have to wonder what would have happened with Warhammer Online if Mythic wasn't pressured by the EA cockswingers and the money EA threw at the projects. Would they have focused more on RvR, realizing competing with WoW was pointless? Were they pushed by the greed of EA to PvEize the shit out of their game as to pull WoW subs?

Because sometimes I wonder if there isn't two warring sides in the Mythic offices. One side working on RvR and making it fun/enjoyable/the point and another side that thinks up bullshit armor sets, scenario grinds, and T3-T4 leveling.

[Goreschach]

I wonder what would have happened if Mythic never sucked the EA cock and got bought out. Mythic announced in May of 05 that they were starting work on a new MMO with the Warhammer IP, and they were bought out by EA in June of 06.

No doubt EA pushed the game to release early. I just have to wonder what would have happened with Warhammer Online if Mythic wasn't pressured by the EA cockswingers and the money EA threw at the projects. Would they have focused more on RvR, realizing competing with WoW was pointless? Were they pushed by the greed of EA to PvEize the shit out of their game as to pull WoW subs?

Because sometimes I wonder if there isn't two warring sides in the Mythic offices. One side working on RvR and making it fun/enjoyable/the point and another side that thinks up bullshit armor sets, scenario grinds, and T3-T4 leveling.

I heard Riccitiello goes to the Mythic offices and sexually harasses all the female employees.

[Fraeg]

I wonder what would have happened if Mythic never sucked the EA cock and got bought out. Mythic announced in May of 05 that they were starting work on a new MMO with the Warhammer IP, and they were bought out by EA in June of 06.

No doubt EA pushed the game to release early. I just have to wonder what would have happened with Warhammer Online if Mythic wasn't pressured by the EA cockswingers and the money EA threw at the projects. Would they have focused more on RvR, realizing competing with WoW was pointless? Were they pushed by the greed of EA to PvEize the shit out of their game as to pull WoW subs?

Because sometimes I wonder if there isn't two warring sides in the Mythic offices. One side working on RvR and making it fun/enjoyable/the point and another side that thinks up bullshit armor sets, scenario grinds, and T3-T4 leveling.

My 2 cents, is that, yeah the game needed another year of development, and EA chomping at the bit might be what prevented this.  But would that have solved the engine issues?  Now correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that WAR is using the Daoc engine, which actually originally was developed for a game that preceded daoc.   Having talked to, and read buttloads of posts from people like me who are way over the min  specs yet get gawdawful performance.... EA or no at its core, WAR would still have some big issues.

You can patch in all the fun you want but if your game selling feature of large scale RvR is borked for a large population of players something is rotten.

[Nebu]

You can patch in all the fun you want but if your game selling feature of large scale RvR is borked for a large population of players something is rotten.

The playerbase was using lag exploits in the tier 1 and 2 scenarios.  That's a bit of a red flag as well.

[Fraeg]

oh yea, the screen dragging, immune flag carriers, jumping through keep walls on your mount... that was 10 types of awesome blended together in a mango-papaya juice smoothie.