Game of Thrones [SPOILERS]

[Rendakor]

Joffrey would have burned fanatics at the stake; Tommen is spineless (and is only 8 in the books).

Also Sam we will be getting that nudity but they used a stand-in for Cersei.

[Speedy Cerviche]

Is there any significance to the guard who cut Tyrion's chains or is that a new thing?

[Rasix]

Never seen him before.  Don't remember any similar character in the books.

Maybe it's a bastardized version of Strong Belwas or just someone sent by Magister Illyrio or Varys.

[Speedy Cerviche]

Could be...

To become Tyrion's new eastern version of the Bronn dynamic now in this new locale. Muscle & some laughs. Works for me.

[Merusk]

Joffrey would have burned fanatics at the stake; Tommen is spineless (and is only 8 in the books).

They've also underplayed the plight of the peasants in the series. Pryce's "we are the 99%" speech only gave us a weak hint of things. They're BAD for the low-class, very bad and only going to get worse as Winter descends and all the crops have been destroyed.

Pryce is a very popular religious leader and man of the people because he's been taking care of them while the ruling class fought their war and fucked around. Combine that popularity with the fanaticisim of struggling people and any move against the Church and there's no way Tommen lives longer than it takes the people to rip the Kingsguard apart with their bare hands.

[Speedy Cerviche]

 King's Landing is supposed to be a huge city, hundreds of thousands of people. There isn't a regular army stationed there, just the city watch which I assume is a few thousand who are dubious fighting quality, basically just cops who are largely corrupt, then a few hundred Tyrell, Lannister and Baratheon elite househould troops in the keep as guards for the prominent Lords stationed there. Real armies are levied by feudal lords and marched over. If there was a really serious riot the local city guards would be quickly overwhelmed (along with any lords caught in the street, like Joffrey's party almost was in an earlier season). The Lords would have to hole up in the keep while outside help came and marched on the city.

The show hasn't done a great job of portraying the city as a dangerous, teeming mass of volatile humanity where criminality is rife and general order is barely maintained. They would need to do lots of CGI work and extras to get across the aesthetic properly so I guess can't for budgetary reasons.

[Chimpy]

The show has been terrible about showing the scale implied in the books on everything with maybe the exception of the Wall.

[Khaldun]

Martin could easily play out that scenario in The Winds of Winter if he wanted to--it's extremely in line with what actually happened or almost happened a number of times in The Hundred Years War and during the Reformation in Europe--there were a number of cases where burghers plus artisans and what Marx called the lumpen-proletariat of cities kicked out or killed aristocrats and then held a city desperately but unsuccessfully against experienced siege forces, who then massacred pretty much everybody. This is going to have a special twist in the case of Westeros due to the winter--I assume whatever supplies have been stockpiled fitfully in the end of summer and autumn as armies have fought is largely in castles and large cities--any armies that are still roaming around fighting or that are holding undersupplied castles are probably going to have to go and attack anywhere that there's food stored.

[Tannhauser]

King's Landing is supposed to be a huge city, hundreds of thousands of people. There isn't a regular army stationed there, just the city watch which I assume is a few thousand who are dubious fighting quality, basically just cops who are largely corrupt, then a few hundred Tyrell, Lannister and Baratheon elite househould troops in the keep as guards for the prominent Lords stationed there. Real armies are levied by feudal lords and marched over. If there was a really serious riot the local city guards would be quickly overwhelmed (along with any lords caught in the street, like Joffrey's party almost was in an earlier season). The Lords would have to hole up in the keep while outside help came and marched on the city.

The show hasn't done a great job of portraying the city as a dangerous, teeming mass of volatile humanity where criminality is rife and general order is barely maintained. They would need to do lots of CGI work and extras to get across the aesthetic properly so I guess can't for budgetary reasons.

I'm pretty sure Tommen mentioned calling the army into the city during his rant.  Tommen messed up when he correctly retreated from the Sept but didn't come back with large forces and massacre the lot of them.  Joffrey would have already had heads on spikes.

[Riggswolfe]

Tommen hasn't got what it's going to take to be king. There's being a merciful, understanding ruler, but these guys are just showing him their ass.

That's kind of the point. Tommen is a weak king and everyone who knows the kid knew he would be. Plus, he has the added problem of 1) his legitimacy is very much in question (which is why he backed down outside the sept the 1st time - the crowd were chanting slurs about his incestuous parentage) and 2) he no longer has the very huge power of his grandfather backing him up. The Lannister's are hated by EVERYONE and the only reason they hadn't been picked apart by the other houses was Tywin's strength. Cersei has been acting like she has his power but no one will recognize that and power that isn't recognized doesn't exist. The Sparrows give no shits about earthly power which is something both Cersei and the Queen of Thorns misread. Cersei thought she could control them because she expected the church to bow to temporal rule as it had done since the church was stripped of its military arm. She wasn't smart enough to realize why allowing a bunch of fanatical zealots to form militias was outlawed in the first place. The Queen of Thorns just thought the Sparrow was as corrupt as all the other High Septons she'd dealt with in the past.

As we were watching last night I heard something like "God, I hate the Lannisters and Cersei, I hope they get theirs."

I said "If it's not obvious yet, when Tyrion killed Tywin he effectively destroyed his own family. His loss combined with Cersei's hubris will come home to roost very soon."

The very next scene was Cersei getting tossed into a dungeon. Admittedly, I've read the books but even when reading them the first time I remember thinking "Tywin's dead? Things are going to fall apart for the Lannisters now..."

[palmer_eldritch]

I don't think the TV show really established how popular this religion is or what they've done to make themselves so popular, if they are. It feels like they come from nowhere really, and now they're throwing queens in jail. Maybe I missed something.

But what the show did establish is that Marjorie is wildly popular, so I dunno 

[Ironwood]

I think people here are forgetting what a coward Joffrey really was.

[HaemishM]

Well yes, but he was a coward backed up by the nation's biggest and baddest strongman, Tywin Lannister. Tommen has no such backup and his mother has alienated most of the Lannister forces by pissing off her uncle Kevan.

[Samwise]

Don't forget Tyrion, Varys, Jaime, the Clegane boys, and the Tyrells.  All very useful allies in terms of brains and/or brawn, all gone now (and potentially working against the Lannisters in some cases).

[jgsugden]

Tommen made the religious army that is holding his wife and brother in law.  If he were to have the White Cloaks try to pry them out of their fortified base, it would significantly weaken his defenses... and it has already been established that his military strength is weak as is.  Remember that many of the people in this religious army are people that used to be amongst his troops...

This is not a time to swim upstream.  Go with the current. 

Go to the High Sparrow and ask for counsel.  Say you understand why your wife was imprisoned and ask for guidance on how to best help her find redemption.  Then, ask the High Sparrow for his assistance against the Lord of Light's forces.  You have Danny and her Dragons plus Stannis and his Priestess of the Lord of Light (who burns the idols of the 7).  Both pose a threat to the 7.  Tommen doesn't have the forces to withstand them (much less the coming of the Others).  Most importantly, don't just say this stuff - realize that this is the best path to getting your wife back and battling real threats to the 7 and your King's Landing.

[Samwise]

Before doing that he should probably check on whether the Book of the Seven or whatever has anything to say about the fruit of incest.   

If I were in Tommen's place and a lot smarter than Tommen I'd throw Cersei under the bus, go make nice with the Queen of Thorns, and just roll over that sept with the full might of the Tyrell/Lannister forces.  Whoever survives gets to take the black if they want to keep living.  Everyone else goes on a spike.  Margaery might die during the battle, but she's obviously dead anyway.  If Cersei survives, the Tyrells get to decide what to do with her stupid ass.

Then I pull a Henry VIII, declare myself new High Septon of the reformed church, and burn heretics.   

[MediumHigh]

Killing the high sparrow would induce riots. The war of the 5 kings destabilized the entire region, the kings road isn't safe, villages are burned on a daily basis by lannister banner men and remnants of abandoned northern warbands. Wives and daughters are raped, priest of local churches are butchered for what little gold and bread available and nuns are passed around campfires before getting butchered. The Kings peace is dead and the only thing left are the lannisters who empowered ruthless monsters in men clothing and the Tyrells who are far too rich to understand whats going on. Oh and winter is coming. In the books the new high sparrow is a leader of several independent movements to protect what little order left for the common people and also the spiritual leader for people too traumatized by the events of the last 3 years to function. The church militant was originally an order of knights commanded by the high sparrow but was disbanded once said sparrow decided to use that power on the king. That was a 1000 years ago, in the TV show the church militant was reinstated to be a weapon against Margery. In the books while it was a result of a compromise between a political savvy high sparrow and cersei seeking to rid some of the debt owed by the crown.


Tommen being powerless is this case is more due to him being literally unable to comprehend whats happening. The show paints a blacker and whiter view of the church militant and the sparrows, but all respects they represent the common people more than the King does which is kinda the point of there existence. The Tyrells can afford to scorch earth kingslanding to save Margery and Loras but Tomen can't. Like the Boltons at winterfell, kingslanding is half seat of power half prison for the lannisters. If the lannisters burn it all to the ground there goes their claim to the seven kingdoms and with their popularity being zero, there allies zero, and their martial strength lacking Tommen can't fight the church militant and expect to stay the king. Literally. His only grace is him being a useful idiot and a puppet for Tyrells to backdoor there way into the center of politics and power but if he can't keep kingslanding its all over. And sadly he doesn't understand none of this so he is stuck in perpetual derp face.

[MahrinSkel]

Yeah, even allowing for how TV Tommen is much older than book Tommen, he doesn't have a lot of plays. Most of "his" strength is actually that of bannermen sworn to either Lannister or Tyrrell, and neither set has much cause to give much of shit about him now. Tywin's ability to play his opponents against each other was half of the strength of House Lannister, the other half was the wealth from the mines. Tommen has neither, and the only people who *might* have been able to command loyalty from the bannermen through either reputation (Jaime) or manipulation (Tyrion) are off the board.

Tommen's fucked.

--Dave

[Merusk]

I don't think the TV show really established how popular this religion is or what they've done to make themselves so popular, if they are. It feels like they come from nowhere really, and now they're throwing queens in jail. Maybe I missed something.

You didn't, it hasn't.  Think Catholic Church ca. 1400s and you've got a good idea of the church's power and popularity.  People cut down Godswoods (the white tree with blood-red leaves and faces) to put up Septs to the Seven in Westeros.

[Tannhauser]

Yeah, even allowing for how TV Tommen is much older than book Tommen, he doesn't have a lot of plays. Most of "his" strength is actually that of bannermen sworn to either Lannister or Tyrrell, and neither set has much cause to give much of shit about him now. Tywin's ability to play his opponents against each other was half of the strength of House Lannister, the other half was the wealth from the mines. Tommen has neither, and the only people who *might* have been able to command loyalty from the bannermen through either reputation (Jaime) or manipulation (Tyrion) are off the board.

Tommen's fucked.

--Dave

LF and the Queen of Thorns will come to him and he will fall over himself to do what they say.  He and QoT both want the same thing; Margerey out of prison.  The Tyrells now have a very strong position to turn the king into their puppet, that is, if they survive the sparrows.  QoT can take her ball and go home and KL will starve until they beg her to come back. 

[eldaec]

Worth considering that a few characters have pointed out how the Tyrells and Lannisters need each other to hold the centre.

Tyrell can't afford to bankroll the throne any more than the lannisters can. TV Olenna seems to know that and appears to be avoiding overreach.

I wonder if the season will finish with the last book scene from Dance, or if they'll skip to the chaos that is expected to follow.

I'd quite like to see the character they'd need to bring back to KL worling with Diana Rigg before the inevitable.

[MediumHigh]

Its in the Tyrells interest to support the Lannisters claim to the throne simple because minus a lannister/bartheon king....well there is Stannis. Oh god. Stannis is a man that counts his wrongs and repays all of them. Highgarden refused Stannis claim to the throne twice. By supporting his younger brother AND marching against him when he nearly took kingslanding. Stannis doesn't forget nor forgive.

[angry.bob]

I think the best solution would be Tommen sitting down with QoT and the High Sparrow to work out compromises that all three dislike but can live with. If one side won't play, cut them out. None of them are going to end up in a good spot if they start fighting, and all three end up in stronger positions cooperating. Especially if none of them want to see Stannis in charge. The problem with the religious fanatics hinges on how literal they decide they have to be regarding their holy book. Some redistribution of power and resources seem to be required for their society to continue to function, so improving the lot of the commoners is inevitable unless they're just going to enslave them.

I think Stannis would be a pretty good king. Not great or legendary, but he'd certainly get the trains running on time and have zero tolerance for corruption or incompetence. Which seems to be the ruling class's main problem with him.

[Speedy Cerviche]

[Merusk]

You guys keep assigning rational actions to irrational people to provide solutions. It's hilarious.

Sparrow is a fanatic.
QoT isn't going to deal when her legacy is on the line.
Tommen is thinking with his dick and a teenager.

The rational people who can take over and guide the king are out of the City. Cersi made sure of that after Daddy died so she could wield power.

[MediumHigh]

You guys keep assigning rational actions to irrational people to provide solutions. It's hilarious.

Sparrow is a fanatic.
QoT isn't going to deal when her legacy is on the line.
Tommen is thinking with his dick and a teenager.

The rational people who can take over and guide the king are out of the City. Cersi made sure of that after Daddy died so she could wield power.

In the books he kinda wasn't, he showed a metric ton of political savvy and knew who to piss off and how to apply pressure and whose side to take. 
Tommen isn't thinking. Mostly because he is ten when this was written, mostly because this arc doesn't require him to think, and mostly because him showing any initiative would be a really fucking big divergence from the books instead of the shallow cut and paste job we've seen so far.
QoT has no real play and there merely overusing her to pad the script.

[Lantyssa]

Margery is going to be released, dirty and hungry, but otherwise unhurt.  Loras might get some lashes, or might be burned alive.  It depends where they want to go with his character since in the books he was off sieging Dragonstone (and getting burned alive).  There's no point in bringing Kevan back since Varys isn't around.

So, the city is in the hands of the mad maester until Cersei takes a walk.

[MediumHigh]

[Speedy Cerviche]

QoT has no real play and there merely overusing her to pad the script.

I assume they are keeping her in play in KL because there is some kind of big Tyrell-Lannister bust-up coming soon that would've been much more subtly forshadowed in the books but wouldn't be easy to do on TV.

[eldaec]

Kings Landing is just badly written and badly shot in inexplicably small rooms. Heartbreaking to see Rigg and Pryce being wasted like that.

Winterfell is dreadful, but GRRM's story here was just as bad. Both the book and show would be better with fewer or no scenes. Would have preferred to watch Brienne and Pod trying to piece together what is going on than actually watch it.

Dorne has been irredeemable horseshit throughout.

Mereen I have fewer issues with than usual. Again, the season would have been better if presented from Jorah and Tyrion's PoV, hearing about events around Dany while looking for a way in. It wasn't hard to predict that Iain Glen and Peter Dinklage would be a stronger screen prescence than the pyramid scooby gang.

Wall is fine. They've done a better job than the books did in making Jon's position feel precarious. Thinking about the early season conversation about libraries and events this week, particularly Aemon telling Gilly to go south, I'm starting to think Sam might desert with Gilly and Sam jr and head for the Citadel after all. Especially if the pink letter happens.

I had been enjoying Stannis until 'burn your daughter' emerged as a plotline. Though I feel sorry for Davos given the show writers clearly have no idea how his presence should affect Stannis.

Overall the season has been missing characters capable of acting like grownups. The books had Doran, Areo, Jamie, Kevan and various Lannister relatives, Selmy, Quentyn's companions, Victaron, Davos, Jon, Asha, Roose, Mance, Manderly, Illyrio, Jojen, Littlefinger, Tyrion (towards the end) and Brienne's companions all able to discuss the problems around them and present broadly sane responses.  The show has had Jon and Olenna, and briefly Selmy and Pod, everyone else having been edited out, lobotomised, or ignored.

[Khaldun]

The idea that Game of Thrones as a series rises or falls based on having a sufficient number of mature, responsible adults talk through their issues strikes me as one of the strangest expectations I have ever heard anybody voice about any work of fiction.

[Merusk]

QoT has no real play and there merely overusing her to pad the script.

I assume they are keeping her in play in KL because there is some kind of big Tyrell-Lannister bust-up coming soon that would've been much more subtly forshadowed in the books but wouldn't be easy to do on TV.

Part of me thinks they're going to replace Kevan's role with Olenna but that's crazy and makes ZERO narrative sense.

[Threash]

Nah, there was a reason for that Kevan scene during the first episode of the season, he clearly stated he would not follow Cersei but would follow Tommen.

[eldaec]

The idea that Game of Thrones as a series rises or falls based on having a sufficient number of mature, responsible adults talk through their issues strikes me as one of the strangest expectations I have ever heard anybody voice about any work of fiction.

I'd never really thought of it that way before either. But just thinking about why this season has felt flat, it is what I came up with.

There are heros and villians in the other seasons that vary between relatable and crazy, but suddenly having no sane smart people makes it like watching the joker in a show without Batman. Or, to put it another way, like watching Gotham. Just psychos and victims all the way down.


 

[eldaec]

I'm fairly certain Olenna replaces Mace not Kevan. Which is fine.

I hope we get Kevan back but very aware the plot would work without him returning to KL.