Game of Thrones [SPOILERS]

[Riggswolfe]

I liked this episode. I wasn't fond of the Dorne bits but I hated the Dorne stuff in the books so I'm not surprised. I can at least tolerate it in the show because instead of dragging on for several chapters, they're rushing through it in just a few scenes per episode.

I've seen some shock on the internet about how this episode ended and all I can think is "Really? You're shocked Ramsey did something awful to a woman? Are you serious?"

My hope is that:

[Speedy Cerviche]

I don't get the outrage over this, someone gets tortured to death or raped in basically every episode.

[Merusk]

But it was shown onscreen happening to a main character, a pretty white girl, we like.

[Paelos]

I think it was mainly that it never happened in the book, so it was seen as completely unnecessary.

[sickrubik]

Most of the viewers of the show didn't read the books. The outrage is not, at least, just that.

[Merusk]

I think it was mainly that it never happened in the book, so it was seen as completely unnecessary.

Right, what happened in the books was worse.  Ramsay forces Reek to muff-munch a 12 year old girl BEFORE he rapes her, not just watch.

[jgsugden]

We're looking at an incomplete puzzle.  GRRM said they did it because they made changes to the story and had to find a way to bridge the gap and get them where they need to be... and we don't really know where they need her, Ramsey and Reek to be.  Maybe this is the straw that makes Reek rise up?  Maybe it is the thing that destroys Sansa completely?  Maybe it is the thing that leaks out and makes everyone turn on Ramsey?  Maybe it is the thing that gives Sansa hatred for Littlefinger and gtes her to put a blade in his heart?  We just don't know... Unlike in prior days, we don't know the before and after anymore for some of these characters...

[Paelos]

I think it was mainly that it never happened in the book, so it was seen as completely unnecessary.

Right, what happened in the books was worse.  Ramsay forces Reek to muff-munch a 12 year old girl BEFORE he rapes her, not just watch.

But not Sansa, if I remember correctly. And that's the problem for TV viewers because they like the actress. The character is garbage and I've always thought so.

[Merusk]

Right, thus my earlier quip about it happening to someone the viewers 'like.'  If it was random slave girl, no kerfuffle. Main actress? WTF!

Dismissing it as 'it didn't happen in the book' isn't right, because the general premise of the scene did, and it was a LOT worse.  Doesn't matter who it happened to.

[HaemishM]

Yeah, the book rape was a fuckload worse and I don't think it could have been filmed at all. TV execs, even at HBO, kind of draw the line at raping 12-year olds on screen.

The main thing I'm curious about with Sansa and Ramsey is whether the Bard comes into this thing or not. Because that's a pretty significant part of the Winterfell action in the North and there have been no hints at it whatsoever.

[Speedy Cerviche]

Doubt it, it was already a bit ridiculous in the book, and would be even more difficult to explain on TV without the multi-chapter buildup. Looks like they are setting up Brienne/generic popular loyalists to play the part of the inside agents working against the Boltons instead of

[Khaldun]

I hated the whole thing in the books, and thought it was one of a number of examples of Martin losing his way in Book 4 and 5--of no longer understanding why brutality, rape and violence were serving important functions in his narrative. I thought that was an example of Martin saying, "Oh, I guess the reason this story has been working is that I keep shocking people and I keep topping myself with shocking things; also, I guess people need to feel that anything can happen. Ok, Theon has to give cunnilingus to a 12-year old, then! Am I great or what?"

So since the showrunners have often removed the pointless excesses of Martin's writing--the needless multiplication of characters, the pointless wanderings of others, the long dullness of people like Tyrion just muttering about whores for a thousand pages--I'd had hopes that they decided that they could get to wherever the Bolton/Theon/Winterfell plotline was getting to in a more efficient and less shock-for-shock's-sake way. I'd hoped that they would not only compress some narratives but also improve on the character arcs. Since Sansa's arc is wholly unknown after the Eyrie--and can't be the same at TV Sansa no matter what--then give her some forward motion. Or if she's meant to continue to be a complete idiot and victim, then don't even feint otherwise--have her continue to be simpering and naive, so she can make some other kind of point. Don't make her an indefinite or unresolved character--that's a waste of screen time and narrative energy. If she's going into Winterfell to be a victim as part of her own plan or intentions, have her understand perfectly well that means being raped and tormented by Ramsay and Roose. There is no way otherwise that the character should be that stupid. Even if she's meant to help us understand what Snidley Whiplash Littlefinger is, then fuck! Have him twirl his mustache a few more times and chew some more scenery. All of this just looks like the showrunners ended up getting lost in the trackless wastes of Book 4 and 5 after all, rather than grabbing the steering wheel from the bored drunk who has been veering all over the roadway.

Almost everything that Martin did in Books 1-3 had real narrative power and came back to the central themes of the overall story: people can't see the bigger picture or imagine the long-term unless there's a structure that compels them to do so; the powerful who forget how power works are just slitting their own throats; stop wishing you lived in early modern Europe, you idiots; when the end of the world comes, the rules change, so pay attention. Etc.  Some of what he does in 4 and 5 extends that, but usually boringly or in ways that are too on the nose. And some of it, as I said, is just him desperately trying to imitate himself, since he's clearly forgotten what made the earlier books work so well.

[Speedy Cerviche]

I don't think it was all just for shock,  they were getting the point across to the audience that she was thrown into a hyena den by Littlefinger, now in the grasp of people even more viscious than Joffrey. Point made. Littlefinger suggested she seduce Ramsy, so we're thinking it will be like Margery maybe did with Joffry then Tommen, well, nope.

Where they go from here, I guess we'll see over the next few weeks but I think it's being setup to be resolved quickly. Stannis is coming, probably with Wildlings whom  Jon harrowingly retrieves. There will probably be some vigilante garroting inside the walls before, during or after a battle with agents like Theon/Brienne/loyalists working against Bolton.

[Paelos]

Right, thus my earlier quip about it happening to someone the viewers 'like.'  If it was random slave girl, no kerfuffle. Main actress? WTF!

Dismissing it as 'it didn't happen in the book' isn't right, because the general premise of the scene did, and it was a LOT worse.  Doesn't matter who it happened to.

Ehhhh, sort of. The general premise of random-background-maid getting sodomized doesn't carry the weight of one of the main characters, other than to point out that Ramsey is a fucking whackadoo. And the author for that matter.

I think it's a combination of A - People might stomach it if it were source material even if it happened to the main character, but B - Because it didn't and they like the actress, WARBLEGARBLE

[Rendakor]

Samsa herself had to know this was going to happen. Did she think Ramsey was going to be gentle, or just not fuck her like Tyrion? I really don't understand the outrage; they didn't even make Reek pregame her.

[Tannhauser]

Sansa has always protected herself by claiming she was a 'stupid girl'.  And she was, mostly.  How many times have we heard that?  She wants everyone to think she's a pretty but stupid girl and thus not a threat.  Surrounded by enemies at Kings Landing it seemed to work.  Once she got out with Littlefinger, she started her schooling.  What does she do at the Aerie? She lies, quite convincingly, to protect Littlefinger when she could have played her 'stupid girl' card and be taken in while Littlefinger takes a walk out the Moon Door.  Because she knows Littlefinger wants her and at least with him she'll stay alive. 

She agreed to marry Ramsay, according to Littlefingers plans.  What neither of them knew, and Littlefinger mentions this, is how little they know of Ramsay. 

So how is Sansa going to respond to her new life of abuse?  Will she undermine Ramsay with the aid of Brienne or will she curl up in bed?  Hopefully she will do the former, but this is GoT so who knows.

[sickrubik]

pregame her

 

[Samwise]

I was trying to think earlier what the feminine form of "fluffing" is.

[Chimpy]

I was trying to think earlier what the feminine form of "fluffing" is.

Shopping?

[Ironwood]

 

[Threash]

Samsa herself had to know this was going to happen. Did she think Ramsey was going to be gentle, or just not fuck her like Tyrion? I really don't understand the outrage; they didn't even make Reek pregame her.

She figured she'd get fucked, and likely not enjoy it since she hates the Boltons anyways, but Theon being there pushed it from unenjoyable experience to sadistic torture.

[MediumHigh]

People are never going to stomach what happened to Sansa because its a popular TV show and the internet has a hard on for projecting the idea that TV shows should be banned from showing violence against woman, woman as sluts, woman as sources of boobs, woman as anything but the talyor swift smart blond that's empowered and knows what she wants and does what she wants. The fanbase for Ayra and Dany is basically built on people projecting those ideas onto characters in Martins story. No problem with Theon Greyjoy getting his dick cutt off, or him finding, wrangling, and burning little boys.

But oh noes the pure white Sansa that represents all women everywhere is being raped! What will boys watching game of thrones think is the right thing to do now. Even now people are like well she gotta have a plan she gotta have a plan, and even using that assumption for a reason why that scene shouldn't have happen. You just cheered seeing a pregnant woman getting stabbed in the belly repeatedly (remarkably unnecessary because she merely has an abortion in the books and very much alive and wasn't even at the red wedding) because Lord Stark married the wrong girl, but Sansa marrying a guy who tortures people, hunts men and women like dogs and very much believes in skinning people alive, is totally a gentle kind soul who needs love.

The same people try to do the same for the books but general understand is that the same crowd that froths over such things figure that women don't read.

[Chimpy]

What the fuck are you on about?

[Lantyssa]

The main thing I'm curious about with Sansa and Ramsey is whether the Bard comes into this thing or not. Because that's a pretty significant part of the Winterfell action in the North and there have been no hints at it whatsoever.

Doubtful.  The Onion Knight's part of the story isn't happening either.  He's with Stannis as they headed out, along with his queen, Shireen, and Melissandra.

I really have no idea where they're going with this, other than setting up Theon to somehow help Sansa.

[eldaec]

Dany has a fan base?

[Rasix]

Hey, Andrea had one.  And here there's tits to go along with the terrible decisions.

I'm not overly shocked that there's brutal rape.  This show likes to go beyond the brutality of the books and show (visual medium and all) rather than tell.  I'm surprised they didn't go out of the way to rape Ayra while she was on the road.  You could see this sort of shift from the very start when they switched Dany's "eh, kinda rapey" wedding night scene into a full on rapey wedding night scene.  

Hey, I'm just glad they've dialed back on the baby murder. Too much more of that, and I'd be watching this show alone.

[Cyrrex]

My random thoughts and meaningless contribution:

- Littlefinger is always playing a game, but I think we are all falling for the old triple switcheroo.  Are we so sure he has flipped once again?  I am not.  He legimately loved Catelyn Stark, and I believe he has in some ways the same kind of love for Sansa.  Which doesn't mean he wouldn't risk setting her up for a bit of marital rape (he's also an asshole), but I think he might genuinely be playing the long game of trying to set her up as some kind of Queen of the North.  The whole scene on the hill above Moat Caitlin (or wherever that was) a few episodes ago was about Littlefinger and Sansa both understanding that she was about to get at the very least emotionally raped, and that it was a sacrifice she was going to make for the sake of the Stark name.  She knew all along it would play out like this, the only difference being poor Theon off in the corner, forced to watch.  Well acted by him, btw.  I think this ends somehow with Theon flaying or castrasting Ramsey.  And what Littlefinger spilled to Cersei means nothing more than him either setting her up, or just a little insurance in case his real plan goes to shit.

- The fight between the Snakes and Bronn/Jaime...good gods what a painful display.  I have had more convincing fake duels with my son when he was five.  That whole plotline annoys me anyway, so whatever.

- I thought I had more points, but I do not.

[Abagadro]

I think the show is suffering from a couple of its better action directors moving onto features. Alan Taylor or Michelle MacLaren would not have had that lame of a fight sequence.

[HaemishM]

Samsa herself had to know this was going to happen. Did she think Ramsey was going to be gentle, or just not fuck her like Tyrion? I really don't understand the outrage; they didn't even make Reek pregame her.

She figured she'd get fucked, and likely not enjoy it since she hates the Boltons anyways, but Theon being there pushed it from unenjoyable experience to sadistic torture.

This. Sansa knew she'd have to "perform" for her new husband, but I'm sure not even Littlefinger knew what kind of a sick fucko Ramsey really is.

[MediumHigh]

I like how everyone knew golden boy Joffery was a fucked up child of creepy don't marry your daughter to that boy implications. Why and how Ramsay fell off the radar is beyond me especially since the books mentions his cruelty off hand several times before his character is even introduced.

[sickrubik]

It didn't. It's not about Ramsay being a bad guy. In fact, him being a bad guy is part of why people feel the scene was terrible. We already know he's a bad guy.

[Triax]

I like how everyone knew golden boy Joffery was a fucked up child of creepy don't marry your daughter to that boy implications. Why and how Ramsay fell off the radar is beyond me especially since the books mentions his cruelty off hand several times before his character is even introduced.

Because Joffrey was the heir-apparent of two major houses and the heir to the throne, he was relevant and important.  Ramsay was a bastard, and thereby irrelevant to the politics of any major house and most minor houses for that matter.

[Speedy Cerviche]

I doubt he was even known to anybody outside of the North. Probably Ned had some idea about it but maybe not all due to the secretive nature of Roose, who would want to keep his depredations under wraps, as it would be pretty scandalous.

[HaemishM]

In the books, he was in Winterfell's dungeon and named Reek at the time that Theon conquered the castle. Ned Stark I'm sure knew plenty about him and no one gave a shit about Ramsey including his father because he was a bastard. Ramsey/Reek promised to help Theon against a force come to take back the castle and he did by bringing a shitton of his father's men, slaughter the besiegers then taking the castle himself by taking out Theon.

[Threash]

He was in the dungeons because when everyone went north for the war Ramsay and original Reek went raping and killing.  Bran sent people to capture him and threw him in the dungeon.  The fact that he passed himself of as Reek would actually lead me to believe no one actually knew him.