Game of Thrones [SPOILERS]

[calapine]

This (as in, people being stupid) is why I am pretty selective with the forum browsing. Despite being into interneting since 19,  I still don't manage not to care what people say. Even things like someone saying "DA2 is better than the Witcher 2" upsets me.  I just take everything to personal.  

I like DA2 better than the Witcher 2, but I still love you, calapine. <3

  Same!  It wasn't a random example. ;)

Back to GOT:

Christ on a stick. "Oh sure, it STARTS as kinda rapey but you know, she decides she's into it so it's cool." Unbelievable.

It starts "kinda rapey" in the book too.

Agree with those saying it was just a badly done scene. When seeing the episode I didn't think of it as rape, but now when reading the discussion about it I realize that's only because I know the show and intrpet Jamies/Cerseis action in a certain way. Had I just stumbled over it while zapping TV and not having prior knowledge it would have been an unambiguous rape scene. I think something being shown needing explanation/not being able to stand on its own is a good sign of bad film making here.

[MediumHigh]

Christ on a stick. "Oh sure, it STARTS as kinda rapey but you know, she decides she's into it so it's cool." Unbelievable.

It starts "kinda rapey" in the book too.

Not really. I just posted the scene in the books, she was entirely objecting to the PUBLIC LOCATION than the sex itself. They have sex in plenty of fucked up locations with Jaime usually having to be the one saying its ok to bone here and cersei whining about how they'll get caught.

The TV interpretation pisses me off because it puts one more notch in the Cersei isn't really a bad person noose the tv writers are hanging themselves with. Because Feast of Crows is right around the corner.

[Numtini]

Another issue here isn't the what, it's the who. Jaime doesn't rape a camp follower. He doesn't rape some woman he comes across on the road. He doesn't rape his worst enemy's wife. He rapes the woman who is the love of his life. That's a huge part of the reaction.

[MahrinSkel]

And the director's explanation actually makes the reaction worse.  'It wasn't rape after she started liking it'.  Shit, if I could see the upside for it, I'd think they were trolling as a PR move.

--Dave

[Khaldun]

People criticising one scene doesn't mean they now hate the show.

I invite you to read the internet at large. It's awash with people forever swearing off Game of Thrones for supporting patriarchy, enabling Rape Culture, and not giving trigger warnings. These people are obviously fucking retards who probably shouldn't have been watching GoT in the first place, but they exist and there apparently a lot of them.

Could you please keep the extra bobariffic shit over in Politics? kthnx

[angry.bob]

People criticising one scene doesn't mean they now hate the show.

I invite you to read the internet at large. It's awash with people forever swearing off Game of Thrones for supporting patriarchy, enabling Rape Culture, and not giving trigger warnings. These people are obviously fucking retards who probably shouldn't have been watching GoT in the first place, but they exist and there apparently a lot of them.

Could you please keep the extra bobariffic shit over in Politics? kthnx

Eat a fucking turd. Just because it's related to something political doesn't mean it's not true or directly related to something a person in this thread said. Those are literally word for word from people's tweets. Trigger warning for you eating a fucking turd. kthnx? yvw!

[Trippy]

Could you please keep the extra bobariffic shit over in Politics? kthnx

[Cheddar]

Could you please keep the extra bobariffic shit over in Politics? kthnx

oh snap.

[Tannhauser]

These are the same creators that put a pregnant woman at the Red Wedding, even though she wasn't present in the book, and stabbed her in the belly.  So now they're showing rape?  Color me shocked. 

They keep taking the books to the EXXXTREEEEMMMEEE. 

At least the Red Wedding made sense.  Rape or consensual sex with your sister up against the coffin of your son is ridiculous, even for this show. And book (which I haven't read so apologies if the book does it different).

[angry.bob]

Could you please keep the extra bobariffic shit over in Politics? kthnx

Seriously, what part of the original post was "bobariffic"? Eldaec said that one scene wasn'r going to make people hate the show. Literally thousands of people are tweeting that the now hate the show and will never watch it again, often with one or more of the three reasons I listed included in the tweets. THere was nothing trollish, combative, and I didn't even swear until the third sentence. Really, I don't get what part of it needs to stay in Politics, so if you could be more specific that would be great.

[Trippy]

It was your reply to him that I was responding to, not your original post.

[Soulflame]

Either they royally fucked up the scene; or they are making TV Jaimie less grey than Book Jaimie.  Both of options suck, so ya I can understand why people are bit miffed.

I am at a loss as to how you can make someone who threw a child out of a window in order to cover up his incestuous relationship gray.  That's not even the worst thing that he's done.

He isn't gray.  He isn't redeemable.  He's a failed child murderer who also used to fuck his sister.

Gray.  Jesus H. Christ.

[Tebonas]

I suspect much of the reaction is shock by people who were deluded into thinking Jaime was about to become a White Hat. Personally I suspect all the White Hats are dead. The most positively written characters are a Smuggler who supports a regime of religious persecution and human sacrifice, and an Oathbreaker and Liar.

But yes, this was filmed as a rape scene. At best you could interpret it as "She liked it in the end", which makes the rape scene even more insulting, not less so. I just didn't think that out of character for somebody who kills little children and bangs his sister, whose only redeeming quality is that he isn't a complete bastard to people he knows and likes. Westeros is a crapsack world, this has to pass for morally grey in this world. Some people thought this is a world were somebody can redeem himself from his past deeds and become a changed man. I don't envy these people the ride they are in for.

[apocrypha]

I'm actually kind of surprised that people have clutched the pearls SO HARD about that rape scene. Jamie Lannister is a vile, incestuous murderer who tried to kill a child, for fuck's sake. His sister gladly killed her husband and tried to have her own brother killed, fathered a bastard child of incest who she gladly put on the throne despite him being a murderous little shit. Rape is suddenly supposed to make Jamie Lannister irredeemable? These are complex characters thankfully, much more so than we saw in the beginning of the books. Had Jamie done the rape then, I don't think anyone would have batted an eyelash. But now because he's suddenly revealed to have a reason to slay the king he was sworn to protect and he's gone a bit squidgy for Brienne, the rape makes everyone lose their shit.

Was the scene consensual? No. It never occurred to me that the director might be trying to make it consensual, which I guess shows how badly he fucked it up. But if you keep looking to this show for the good in characters, I think you're going to be sorely disappointed. I think the scene showed that neither character, for whatever good they might do, is in any way redeemable.

I agree with this in terms of the story.

I think that he's a good character (I don't mean that in a moral sense) who's had a interesting story arc in the shows and the rape scene was the first reminder in a long time of his earlier characterisation. When viewers have been starting to feel some empathy towards a previously hateful character that kind of reminder can be a bit harsh.

The scene itself was problematic though, as are a lot of the responses. I didn't pick up on the fact that Cersei was repulsed by his hand, it wasn't shown clearly enough. I absolutely didn't get any impression of the supposed consensual nature towards the end - it looked like rape from start to finish. The scene felt badly edited to me.

And, more importantly, "it becomes consensual by the end"!? WTF? Rape is rape. There's no such thing as "rapey". You can't slightly rape someone! As much as people might like to, you can't separate culture from reality, especially when it deals with real issues like rape. We live in societies where rape isn't taken seriously, where women are routinely ignored when they make accusations of rape and where there is a normalisation of sexual violence towards women. For the director to even think, let alone say, that rape can "become consensual" indicates, to me, a fairly sick & damaged mindset and society.

I'm going to commit a cardinal sin, and I apologise for it, but in the "Men's Rights" shitthread someone asked what reasons there could be for men being feminists. This, to me, is one of the most important ones. Do you have sisters? A mother? Female friends or partners? Well they live in a society where rape is defended, denied and happens far, FAR more frequently than most men can accept, and the portrayal of rape in popular culture is part of that. Fighting against that is important.

[MediumHigh]

I suspect much of the reaction is shock by people who were deluded into thinking Jaime was about to become a White Hat. Personally I suspect all the White Hats are dead. The most positively written characters are a Smuggler who supports a regime of religious persecution and human sacrifice, and an Oathbreaker and Liar.

But yes, this was filmed as a rape scene. At best you could interpret it as "She liked it in the end", which makes the rape scene even more insulting, not less so. I just didn't think that out of character for somebody who kills little children and bangs his sister, whose only redeeming quality is that he isn't a complete bastard to people he knows and likes. Westeros is a crapsack world, this has to pass for morally grey in this world. Some people thought this is a world were somebody can redeem himself from his past deeds and become a changed man. I don't envy these people the ride they are in for.

You make Jaimes character uncomplicated. Your divorcing the bad things he's done from the reasons and impulses he does them. There is a distinct separation between the folks who revel in the morally black, those who stand within the grey and those who just do black things. Jaime is willing to do some things and not others. That's the point of his character, and to strip that is to make him a nameless mook of which we have plenty. Does Jaime become a good character? No... but he becomes a likable one, something the last 2  books in the series will rapidly get rid of.

Funny how this show shows what people are casually ok with. Mass murder. COOL. Baby killing? Please more of that. Beheading of innocent people? Tough cookies. Incest? Please do that on camera. I'm just waiting for the reality TV version of game of thrones set in some crapsack part eastern European would sell gangbusters. 

[Setanta]

Either they royally fucked up the scene; or they are making TV Jaimie less grey than Book Jaimie.  Both of options suck, so ya I can understand why people are bit miffed.

I am at a loss as to how you can make someone who threw a child out of a window in order to cover up his incestuous relationship gray.  That's not even the worst thing that he's done.

He isn't gray.  He isn't redeemable.  He's a failed child murderer who also used to fuck his sister.

Gray.  Jesus H. Christ.

Thinking back to my uni studies, historically, kid killing happened a lot - quite often at the hands of those lauded as heroes and just. The fact that child molesters within the RC church are considered to be redeemable by the RC church makes me wonder just how far a person can go before they aren't redeemable.

Jamie is an interesting study, there to make us question what is "right". That was the whole point of the kingslayer exposition with Brienne. Baratheon/Stark/Tully/Arryn were all trying to kill off the Targaryans because Robert was miffed at being snubbed by the woman he loved. For that they broke their oaths to the king and declared war on him with the aim to depose and kill him. Robert was a nasty spoilt piece of work, not the happy party animal we'd like to think.  By comparison, Jamie learnt of the plan to destroy the inhabitants of King's Landing and broke his oath by killing the mad king. Cersei had all of Robert's bastards put to death - Jamie wasn't overjoyed by what he tried to do to Bran (in the novels). Tywin had the Targaryan kids put to death, Robert forgave him for it. Aside from a bit of sister-fucking, Jamie pales into insignificance - until that screwed up tv scene.

Looking at how boring Bran's story is, I'm assuming that Jamie relised how fucking tedious Bran is and in a 4th wall moment, decided to do the audience a favour. Pity he failed.

[Abagadro]

I'll probably get a raft of shit for this, but I think the scene is ambiguous and that the reaction to the director's statement is being blown way out of proportion.  He's talking about how it is DEPICTED, not the objective nature of the act, which in all honesty would be based upon the subjective belief of the "victim." I put that word in quotes because there is only one person who could legitimately define whether something was consensual or not and that is Cersei and SHE DOESN'T EXIST.  If this were a real case there could easily be a circumstance where what we see from Cersei was feigned rejection at first (she is manipulative you know), or she changed her mind at some point after the initial rejection but before it got physical (to deny the ability to do this removes her agency), so what was shown could, in the subjective opinion of the only person who could classify it as consensual or non-consensual, be consensual or even move from one phase to another during the course of the event (established sexual relationships are dynamic and complex).  It is basically impossible to determine from third-party perspective what actually happened, yet all of these judgments and condemnations come from just that.

Now, you can argue about whether he succeeded or failed in communicating the ambiguity that he apparently thought he did (I lean towards the latter), but there seems to be a rather dubious groundswell of condemnation of the guy personally that I find highly questionable.  Suddenly he is a champion of rape as a result of discussing the depiction of a scene between fictional characters in a singularly morally fucked-up fantasy world.  I don't think that is right.

[eldaec]

Except for Dany, Tyrion, and Jon. Nobody is a white hat, any more than Tony Soprano is a white hat. That doesn't mean people who have done bad things can't also do good things (which is a recurring theme of all the series).

On the scene itself, as quoted, the directors and actors were not trying to shoot a rape, the backstory is not a rape. So the interesting question is not 'what does this mean for Jamie?', the interesting question is 'what does it say about how people mentally assess rape when a cast and crew looked at what they produced, and didn't notice they accidentally depicted a rape?'.

[eldaec]

Just on Ab's point, it is still fair to criticise the director and crew for not noticing that on a subject so sensitive they didn't achieve on screen what he says they were aiming for.

[Abagadro]

I think I pretty plainly said that was the case, but that is not what I am seeing all over the place today.

[Teleku]

Either they royally fucked up the scene; or they are making TV Jaimie less grey than Book Jaimie.  Both of options suck, so ya I can understand why people are bit miffed.

I am at a loss as to how you can make someone who threw a child out of a window in order to cover up his incestuous relationship gray.  That's not even the worst thing that he's done.

He isn't gray.  He isn't redeemable.  He's a failed child murderer who also used to fuck his sister.

Gray.  Jesus H. Christ.

Uh, not sure if you read the books, but (minor spoilers):

Watched the episode last night.  I'm probably mentally biasing myself because I read the book first, but I can sort of see how they didn't make it full rape.  After the initial struggle, she seemed to stop really fighting it and was just very panicked about what they were doing in such a public place, not against the act itself. 

[Ironwood]

Again, he is still a guy that pushed a 10 year old out a window to cover up the fact that he was fucking his sister. "But he's been acting nicer lately and he had a really good reason to stab the Mad King in the back" doesn't really change that or suddenly make him way too noble of a guy to do what he did in this scene.

I said humanizing him.  Not sainting him.

[Ironwood]

The TV interpretation pisses me off because it puts one more notch in the Cersei isn't really a bad person noose the tv writers are hanging themselves with.

Which show have you been watching ?

[apocrypha]

Question: Does anyone think that Jamie's act becomes less heinous if Cersei stops fighting it at the end of that scene?

Because if you do then what you're saying is that if you try to have sex with someone and they clearly and loudly say no it's OK to carry on trying to have sex with them because they might stop saying no before you're finished.

My problem isn't with the characters - they're fictional, they're pretty much all really horrible people living in a really horrible world. My problem is with the real life responses to this scene, especially the idea that there is even a difference between rape and rape that becomes consensual eventually.

[MediumHigh]

The TV interpretation pisses me off because it puts one more notch in the Cersei isn't really a bad person noose the tv writers are hanging themselves with.

Which show have you been watching ?

The show makes the occasional argument that Cersei isn't that bad of a person, just a progressive woman bitter because of her lot in life.

[Ironwood]

No.  She makes that argument.

You may find it compelling.  I do not. 

If you do, you may also find that Littlefinger is your best friend, with many pearls of wisdom, such as hilarious jokes like 'Hey, don't trust me, I'll just betray you'.

 

[Velorath]

Jaime isn't a good person, but he has a code, and above all else, in a super fucked up way, part of that code is driven by the fact he loves his sister and would do anything, including murder children, to protect her from harm. Raping her is a violation of that code, and thus IS out of character, no matter how many kids he tries to off. And that it wasn't intended to be seen that way makes it even more fucked up.

I'd have to go back and reread the books, but I don't recall there being enough shown of their relationship aside from the lust that would suggest that he does have a code. Does he attempt to murder children because he loves her and wants to protect her from harm, or does he do it because he loves fucking her and wants to continue to be able to do it? It's such a dysfunctional relationship it's hard to tell what's in character or out of it, especially at a time when that relationship is falling apart. Their relationship seems so built on sex, that when he finally makes it home after everything he's been through and she doesn't want much to do with him and tells him as much, I'm don't really think you can say this for sure is out of character for him.

[Setanta]

TBH, I'm not really certain that the scene needed to be there apart from a "hey lets be edgy" POV. They certainly fucked it up in translating the book and were either a) out for more ratings via contoversy or b) are a pack of dumb asses who couldn't direct/edit to convey the scene in the book or c) didn't watch what they had filmed and figured it would be ok as people have read the book and know the scene for what it is.

Stupidity either way.

[Numtini]

The show makes the occasional argument that Cersei isn't that bad of a person, just a progressive woman bitter because of her lot in life.

I think it definitely makes that argument. However, just because it's a persuasive argument about Cersei's psychology and motivation doesn't make it a persuasive one in excusing her actions.

[Ironwood]

Ha.

[Threash]

Question: Does anyone think that Jamie's act becomes less heinous if Cersei stops fighting it at the end of that scene?

Because if you do then what you're saying is that if you try to have sex with someone and they clearly and loudly say no it's OK to carry on trying to have sex with them because they might stop saying no before you're finished.

My problem isn't with the characters - they're fictional, they're pretty much all really horrible people living in a really horrible world. My problem is with the real life responses to this scene, especially the idea that there is even a difference between rape and rape that becomes consensual eventually.

I wouldn't expect a healthy sexual relationship from anyone in that situation.  I would expect most of the sex between Jamie and Cersei starts off very reluctantly by one of them until they give in to their urges.  While that is not ok for real people it makes perfect sense that it would be their standard interaction.

[eldaec]

The TV interpretation pisses me off because it puts one more notch in the Cersei isn't really a bad person noose the tv writers are hanging themselves with.

Which show have you been watching ?

Also, does being a victim make someone less evil?

(ignoring the point that writers and director have flat out told us it was consensual)

[Speedy Cerviche]

And, more importantly, "it becomes consensual by the end"!? WTF? Rape is rape. There's no such thing as "rapey". You can't slightly rape someone! As much as people might like to, you can't separate culture from reality, especially when it deals with real issues like rape. We live in societies where rape isn't taken seriously, where women are routinely ignored when they make accusations of rape and where there is a normalisation of sexual violence towards women. For the director to even think, let alone say, that rape can "become consensual" indicates, to me, a fairly sick & damaged mindset and society.

I'm going to commit a cardinal sin, and I apologise for it, but in the "Men's Rights" shitthread someone asked what reasons there could be for men being feminists. This, to me, is one of the most important ones. Do you have sisters? A mother? Female friends or partners? Well they live in a society where rape is defended, denied and happens far, FAR more frequently than most men can accept, and the portrayal of rape in popular culture is part of that. Fighting against that is important.

You mean a society like Westeros? Where there is basically a rape or murder situation in every other scene? This is not the place to grind your "rape culture" political axe, it's a very grim fantasy setting depicting the violent reality of medieval war. Right now I am reading a biography of Wellington on campaign and things are pretty bad even in the 19th century. Armies on the march were basically murder, rape & pillage machines to the local populace, and lookout if you're in a sieged town that's taken by storm. In medieval times any survivors amongst the vanquished were murdered unless they had value as a slave or for ransom. I assume most of the facebook types in a tizzy on the internet about how Jaime is perpetuating "rape culture" haven't read much about the brutal realities of warfare over most of human history.

[apocrypha]

You mean a society like Westeros? Where there is basically a rape or murder situation in every other scene? This is not the place to grind your "rape culture" political axe, it's a very grim fantasy setting depicting the violent reality of medieval war. Right now I am reading a biography of Wellington on campaign and things are pretty bad even in the 19th century. Armies on the march were basically murder, rape & pillage machines to the local populace, and lookout if you're in a sieged town that's taken by storm. In medieval times any survivors amongst the vanquished were murdered unless they had value as a slave or for ransom. I assume most of the facebook types in a tizzy on the internet about how Jaime is perpetuating "rape culture" haven't read much about the brutal realities of warfare over most of human history.

You, er, missed where I said my problem isn't with the characters, but the real life responses to the scene that I have a problem with?

[HaemishM]

I would have expected you of the people here, as an author, to have a better grasp of his character arc. TV Jaime and Book Jaime are now very different entities. I don't think this is something we'd have seen from Book Jaime, especially towards Cersei, and certainly not at the point he was at in his character growth at this point in the books. It's not about "oh he's a good guy now" it's "he's a better guy than he was" and they just tossed that whole thing out the window.

EDIT: Ummm, I think that may come across ruder than I meant it. Sorry!

Rude? You think I'm going to be bothered by rude? Have you not read my posts? 

Actually, the more I think about Cersei and Jamie's whole relationship, I'm not sure there's ever been a time where it couldn't be considered a little rapey. Most of Cersei's biggest issues in the book are with the lack of control and the lack of power she suffers simply because she is not a man, and is thus considered less than her father and her brothers - even her twisted, demon imp of a brother (since Tywin named Tyrion the Hand in his absence instead of Cersei). I can imagine the first sexual encounters between the two of them being Jamie forcing himself on her, either not understanding or not caring that incest is wrong. She probably considers most of her encounters with Robert to be rape (or at least rape-y).

Sympathetic is definitely a better description of Jamie's character arc - from pantomime villain to at least sympathetic - but make no mistake, I don't expect him to think any attempts to have sex with Cersei to be out of bounds - whether it's rape or not. His mindset is that I love this woman and I don't care how wrong it is - ANY of it. I've had this woman before, why can't I have her now, here, anywhere I want? Which is an interesting counterpoint considering how much he cares about the "rules" of honor such as being a member of the Kingsguard.

The scene was handled badly, especially considering the director's stated intent. It shouldn't have been that rapey if for no other reason than some people really can't stand rape in fiction. Kill a kid, you can be redeemed but rape a very twisted, crazy, evil woman who you've spent your entire life having twisted, incestuous sex with, even to the point that many murders have been committed to hide that relationship? It's a very weird, fucked up sense of morality that people project onto this show. Fuck, people CHEERED when TEENAGE Joffrey gets choked out by pigeon pie. I'm pretty sure they've mentioned the Hound as having raped women before yet his every murderous rampage is cheered on (partly because he's so darkly comic when he does it but still).

Rape is the ultimate fictional sin apparently. I don't mean that flippantly. It seems to be above killing household pets on the chart of "things people get pissy about in fictional characters."