Game of Thrones [SPOILERS]

[Velorath]

Aside from the Iron Islands under Balon's rule, the North has been the only Kingdom that seems to have a strong desire for independence. Also most of the people that were there voting are either related to the Starks in some way or are on good terms with them, and many of them are new to power. Tyrion, Brienne, Gendry and Sam aren't going to go against them. Davos probably doesn't really give a shit. Bronn isn't there. Edmure is their Uncle and Robin is their cousin. Random guy in charge of Dorne after all the fuckery there probably doesn't have a lot of pull. Yara maybe should have taken the opportunity to put in a bid for the Iron Island's independence, but that's the only real issue I see.

If this group were made up of people like Tywin and Olenna, then sure, that shit wouldn't fly.

[jgsugden]

If anything, the North is more valuable now since the end of winter (forever?) ...

There were long Winters before the Night King, and there will be long winters after.  This Winter may be over, but one weed in the snow north of the wall is a hint that Winter is ending... sort of like the title of the last book ... but is not an indication that the entire world is now going to be a lush paradise.

As for the Iron Islands - they declared independenace and pillaged the coast of the Seven Kingdoms.  It was Brexit if Brexit nuked Paris.

[Riggswolfe]

About the North seceding:

Who's going to stop them? Most of the armies on the continent are decimated and the ones that aren't either don't care or like the Starks. I think Dorne is possibly the only kingdom with enough of a standing army left to do anything and I think they just don't give a shit.

[HaemishM]

Wasn't Dorne the only kingdom of the 7 that was never conquered? If so, they'd have plenty of reason to protest independence, or at the very least, claim it for themselves.

[Samwise]

Wasn't Dorne the only kingdom of the 7 that was never conquered? If so, they'd have plenty of reason to protest independence, or at the very least, claim it for themselves.

If Dornishmen have demonstrated anything over the previous seasons, it's that they're generally completely happy to go along with whatever everyone else is doing.

[eldaec]

There's this urban legend that GRR allegedly had to tell HBO how the books were going to end before HBO was willing to greenlight the series. I don't think that this is actually true. The more I understand GRR's writing process and how he describes it the more I agree with the faction of book fans that claim that GRR has no idea how the series will end or how many books are necessary to get to that end. I mean how could he know if answering this question early is not part of his process?

Understanding this also helped me understand why some long running series just seem to go on and on always opening up more plot threads instead of resolving them and then sort of petering out at the end.

The urban legend is what GRRM and benioff and weiss explicitly said, and not so much HBO insisted as what GRRM agreed to do presumably so the series would look a bit like his books.

The plot points from that outline stand out a mile, and with hindsight are telegraphed pretty hard in the books.

[Velorath]

Wasn't Dorne the only kingdom of the 7 that was never conquered? If so, they'd have plenty of reason to protest independence, or at the very least, claim it for themselves.

Maybe not conquered, but in the course of a few seasons lost Doran, Oberyn, Prince Trystane, and Ellaria. So basically not only their ruling house was wiped out, but also the woman who took control in a coup ended up dead as well.

Half the people in positions of power by the end got the Battlestar Galactica President Roslin promotion. A Dwarf, a smuggler, a mercenary, a female knight, a member of the Night's Watch, and a guy that was being breast-fed until almost double-digit age, are now among the most powerful people in a realm now ruled by a cripple, with the guy with possibly the most actual claim to the throne going to live beyond the Wall so as not to piss off an army of former-slave eunuchs.

With two massive wars just ended, and a lot of rebuilding needed, I can see people not really wanting to push back against Northern independence at the moment.

[Hoax]

I guess at least we got some kind of closure?

Bran as king only makes sense in the cyclical Bran the Builder sort of way as was mentioned upthread. But it would have taken a lot of time skips and an entire episode of content to convince us that it made any sense and was workable and him and his government was going to be The Builder II. All that was never going to happen so its use your imagination time. I think that the issue of Bran and what army needed to be addressed and the Northern independence needed to be laid out in a more logical believable manner but again, who has the time and would most normies even understand or give a fuck?

No the vast majority (because remember this isn't a niche show, the audience is quite big) just wanted the 80's high school movie where did they all end up while the credits roll. So that's what we got. Sucks but it is what it is.

I blame GRRM for not writing more, or at least helping more. Or whoever didn't offer to pay him to do so if that was the problem. It wasn't though, he's a lazy twat who has no idea what he's doing. On top of that fuck the GoT world anyways, blaming the writers for not honoring it faithfully enough is silly. The undead army was always stupid and a waste of time unless the story is literally only about the great war btwn living and dead. The fact that everyone breaks oaths and betrays everyone at every turn /BUT/ the status quo is 1,000 years old is fucking stupid and ignorant of how humans behave it always has been and its the reason I literally quit Book 2 before finishing it the first time I read them before just filling in gaps in the show was reason enough to push through.

However, this is probably the most high quality swords and knights and statecraft type show we'll get. Sucks but its true. So I'm glad we got it and I'll be sad when there is literally nothing else that scratches those itches worth watching from now until ever.

[Brolan]

Clearly he is having problems putting all the pieces together so it’s easier for him to work on new stuff.  If he was just another fantasy writer he would have to pump the books out to have an income.  But he has all that HBO money now and likely never needs to work again.

The scary part is the pressure of feeding the TV series wasn’t enough to get him to finish a single new book.  What on earth could possibly motivate him now?

[Tale]

Maybe some of you book nerds know the answer, but are we sure Bran can simply inhabit whomever he wants?  Haven't we only seen animals and a halfwitted Hodor?

Bran disabled future Hodor by accidentally warging into Hodor's healthy young self during a trip to the past, which suggests Bran can change the future.

[Teleku]

If anything, the North is more valuable now since the end of winter (forever?) means a lot more productive farmland.  Robert went to war against the Iron Islands (which have no known natural resources other than scurvy, and sure as hell aren't manning any walls) to keep them from breaking off, so I have to assume that either all the kingdoms pay enough taxes to be worth keeping around, or it's important to keep even the useless ones around to make sure that the wealthier ones don't get ideas.

What makes you think winter is over?  It started snowing down in King's Landing after the battle (that was very obviously not ash.  It was bright white and there were literal snowflakes falling).

Never saw it said anywhere in the series or books that White Walkers created winter.

[Speedy Cerviche]

What makes you think winter is over?  It started snowing down in King's Landing after the battle (that was very obviously not ash.  It was bright white and there were literal snowflakes falling).

Never saw it said anywhere in the series or books that White Walkers created winter.

I think it was ash...

The camera focused a shot on a green plant sprouting from the snow when Jon was heading north with the free people, signifying it was spring.

[Abagadro]

It was all over the place. When Jon runs into the sleeping Drogon he is clearly under a layer of snow.  Continuity in that episode was not its strong point.

[Samwise]

I surmise that winter ended because in the next scene when they're outside having the kingsmoot, it looks like summer, and the free folk return north of the Wall, which they would presumably not be keen to do if it was still in a deadly deep freeze.

I mean, I don't like the fact that after all that time building up "winter is coming" it was apparently ended by a single stab, but that's the only way I can interpret those scenes.  The snow on Drogon completely baffled me because it does look like snow, but there isn't snow seen in King's Landing anywhere else in that episode or the one before it.  The only explanation I have for that one is that the guy who did the CGI was misinformed.

[jgsugden]

It was all over the place. When Jon runs into the sleeping Drogon he is clearly under a layer of snow.  Continuity in that episode was not its strong point.

Ash.  The snow that fell in the finale over King's Landing was ash,

[Abagadro]

Nah, the scene where Jon walks by Drogon is WEEKS after the burning of the city (as per his convo with Tyrion) and he has a layer over him while he is sleeping. It falls off him like snow.  No way ash is still falling form the sky at this point.

[Tale]

Littlefinger to Varys in Season 3: “Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but they refuse. They cling to the realm or the gods or love. Illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is.”

Bran to Littlefinger in Season 7: “Chaos is a ladder.”

Bran to Jaime: "You wouldn’t be able to help us in this fight if I let them murder you first."
Bran to Jon: "You were exactly where you were supposed to be."

Bran is the Three-Eyed Raven, who was Brynden Rivers (Bloodraven), the legitimised bastard son of King Aegon IV Targaryen. Brynden was a sorcerer who became hand of the king and master of whisperers simultaneously (and even more effective than Varys) under kings Aerys I Targaryen and Maekar I.

Brynden organised the Great Council (kingsmoot) that chose Aegon V Targaryen (Mad King's grandfather) to succeed Maekar. But this new Aegon immediately arrested Brynden and sent him to the Wall for the murder of Aenys Blackfyre who had been invited to represent a rival throne-contesting bastard line of Targaryens at the kingsmoot.

As a prisoner, Brynden went to the Wall on the same trip as Aemon Targaryen (Maester Aemon). Brynden rose to become lord commander of the Night's watch, then disappeared ranging beyond the Wall and surfaced as the 3ER encountered by Bran. Chaos is a ladder and perhaps Brynden got another chance to climb it via Bran.

[Teleku]

It was all snow, the entire episode.  Like, literal snow flakes falling.  Unless there are things like ash flakes.

But as Ab said, it was just all over the place with shitty editing.  I'm sure there wasn't snow at the Kingsmoot not because they wanted to make some point, but because they just didn't even think about it or want to bother ("The director sort of forgot it was winter").  But yeah, it was a several month jump forward in time apparently, so I guess Winter might be dialing back for the season anyways, as a plant growing up north shows.  Or maybe that plant was meant to symbolize the kingdom regrowing amid all of the description, and they were't even thinking of spring at all?  Who can say with these guys!

Also, I was sort of wondering why they just didn't offer all the wildlings the Umber land.  Like, there are no more Umbers.  Or any of the peasants they once ruled.  May as well take a free castle and better land than what you are getting up north.

I guess the nights watch's job now is maintaining the wall as a tourist attraction?

[Tale]

Sending Jon to the Night's Watch was a ceremonial punishment for the queenslaying rightful heir who did not want to be king. Everybody knew there was no Night's Watch and no more need for one. He was free to join the wildlings, who were apparently waiting for his arrival. He was always a wildling at heart.

[Teleku]

[Abagadro]

I ruse.

[Speedy Cerviche]

Nah, the scene where Jon walks by Drogon is WEEKS after the burning of the city (as per his convo with Tyrion) and he has a layer over him while he is sleeping. It falls off him like snow.  No way ash is still falling form the sky at this point.

Also in the earlier Winterfell episodes they actually had cold vapor breath when they spoke (most Hollywood productions never bother to add this). Definitely didn't have it in KL so unless that's another massive continuity flop (always possible) then it wasn't cold/snow.

I think it really was supposed to be a week of ash to emphasize what a massive pyre the dragon  turned KL into.

[IainC]

The other denouement nobody wanted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nws1JQHBlJA

[Cyrrex]

Surely that was ash.  They have been showing KL as "a bit chilly" where it used to be a fairly tropical environment before.  I don't think "winter" in KL means the same thing it means in the north.  See also:  any map of any earth-like planet.

[Setanta]

The other denouement nobody wanted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nws1JQHBlJA

Still better continuity than  Season 8

[pants]

The last scene was meant to be spring is coming - when they cut to the wall you can hear water running, as if the wall is melting (or at least softening for spring).

[Cyrrex]

The other denouement nobody wanted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nws1JQHBlJA

I didn't know I wanted it until I watch it.  I had to put my cocoa down, lest it burst forth from my nostrils.

[Ironwood]

The last scene was meant to be spring is coming - when they cut to the wall you can hear water running, as if the wall is melting (or at least softening for spring).

Wait

Wait

I thought winter was meant to last for a fuckton of years ?

[Rendakor]

They killed winter when they killed the Night King. That green plant growing definitely meant winter was over north of the wall.

[Speedy Cerviche]

It was implied winter's intensity and duration had some correlation with the others, so their defeat would have limited it.

[Comstar]

Am I the only one who clearly saw Bran take over Tryion while he was in prison, just before Jon comes in? Did I watch another show and confuse it?

How that makes Bran king later makes no sense either, it was just another stupid weird thing that happened.

[Ironwood]

Ah, right, so it was a Doomdark thing.  That makes sense if they're generating the Ice-Fear.

I'm utterly bold.

[eldaec]

I think I was OK with Bran because...

1) it doesn't matter it isn't really the point of the story
2) there isn't an obviously better solution if you assume the 6 kingdoms want to stay united.
3) I was thoroughly spoiled on this happening when the betting odds on Bran just collapsed so hard that there was obviously a leak.
4) Tyrion's point that he can't start a dynasty was not a terrible argument.

It was thrown out in 5 minutes because other things were more important to this story.

The Carry On Up The Small Council scene annoyed me more.

[Teleku]

There is nothing in the books or series to imply that the usual winter has anything to do with the others.  Now, THIS winter, was hyped up to be one hell of a civilization killer, and this was also hyped up to be because the white walkers had finally awoken and were coming south to party.  So killing them does sort of make sense that the harsh winter that was coming would be broken.  But normal winters will still come and go and be years long, yeah.  Also, keep in mind the entire series when John or anybody else was fighting though blizzards north of the wall, all of that was in SUMMER.  So that blade of grass is probably about as much as anybody will actually see up there.

And holy hell it was Snow falling on Kings Landing.  Nothing about it looked like ash.  It was bright fucking white, and was coming down in obvious snow flakes.  See Arya at the end of episode 5 if you want to see ash.  She is gray, its raining grey, everything is grey.

[Riggswolfe]

I may be mistaken but I thought GRRM said something about how the seasons in Westeros are all screwed up because of magic and the Others are part of it with Dragons (or the Lord of Light) being another part. This may just be a fan theory I've internalized over the years though.