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Author Topic: Game of Thrones [SPOILERS]  (Read 574639 times)
Riggswolfe
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Reply #6615 on: May 24, 2019, 05:02:06 PM

Martin has analogues of Asia and Africa in the books, at least one entire continent he's done fuck-all with.  I hope he forgets they exist, or he'll wind up detouring there for six of the imaginary books he'll never write.

He'll write filler books that goes exhaustively into their history so he can delay the Winds of Winter for another decade.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2019, 02:03:59 AM by Riggswolfe »

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Brolan
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Reply #6616 on: May 24, 2019, 09:26:43 PM

He's 70, turns 71 in September.  At his weight I give him 2-3 more years max.
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Reply #6617 on: May 24, 2019, 10:19:13 PM

He's 70, turns 71 in September.  At his weight I give him 2-3 more years max.

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Reply #6618 on: May 25, 2019, 01:19:02 AM

It's not perfect but it's a shit ton better than anything in S8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0mncEl4nVU

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Reply #6619 on: May 25, 2019, 01:46:36 AM

It's not perfect but it's a shit ton better than anything in S8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0mncEl4nVU
cancellation would've been better
Threash
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Reply #6620 on: May 25, 2019, 09:08:31 AM

Chaos is a ladder and perhaps Brynden got another chance to climb it via Bran.

Holy shit, someone just reminded me his primary characteristic as a child is Bran the climber. The books and the show open with all the stuff about Bran being quite the climber, and then it gets repressed by his disability, and...

"You always look at your feet before you lie." - Maybe I gotta rewatch every Bran scene for him looking at his feet...

Vision just as he's headed towards being the 3ER, and the look Jojen gives him: "Promise me, Bran, no more climbing."


Also Bran chose to leave Jamie alive, why? he didn't do a damn thing for the good guys. He sure did a ton to make sure Bran ended up King though.

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Samwise
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Reply #6621 on: May 25, 2019, 10:48:59 AM

The "Bran was the puppetmaster all along" idea could have made for a really cool "oh fuck, that was clever" moment in the final episode if they did a little Bran-POV montage in one of those scenes that flashed back to all the earlier scenes in the series where Bran had set up his chess pieces.  They could even show Bran doing his "time warging" thing from his throne, implying that he is RIGHT NOW going back and setting up everything that led to him becoming king, Bill-and-Ted style.  It'd be fun for the audience to go "oh, I remember that," and it'd make the "Bran the Broken" ending feel more like something that was planned out and that caused a lot of earlier stuff to pay off in a satisfying way while also raising interesting new questions about what happens next.

As it is, I'm pretty sure that the fact that you COULD imagine that Bran set everything up deliberately was completely accidental on the part of the showrunners.

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Brolan
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Reply #6622 on: May 25, 2019, 11:53:03 AM

The problem with all this is we got the cliff notes version of the season.  Bran the chess master would have worked if they set it up.  Dany being insane would have worked if they eased into it more.  D&D were in such a hurry to get done they didnít care about the quality anymore.
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Reply #6623 on: May 25, 2019, 12:27:53 PM

Oh definitely.  What I'm saying is that Bran the chessmaster is something that you could plausibly retcon using actual events from the show (as many people are kinda doing on their own) in the space of about a minute without having to shoot any new footage.  It would be incredibly cheap and easy, and the fact that they didn't even do something like that kinda underscores their general incompetence IMO.

I expect after reading a few of these theories on the Internet they'll claim later that that's what they INTENDED but they wanted to leave it ambiguous.   awesome, for real

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Reply #6624 on: May 25, 2019, 01:47:23 PM

All that could have made the choice of Bran as king more palatable. However, I think it still would have been unsatisfying mainly because of how little of a charcter Bran was as the 3-eyed raven. There was no explanation for what that really meant other than he can apparently see shit in the past and take over animals. He did very little with either ability that could have reasonably been considered to have affected events. For that matter, we don't really even have a good feel for why anyone believed him at Winterfell other than he was Bran. His most significant contribution other than as bait was telling Sansa and Arya that Jon was Aegon, which also seemed to have little effect other than turning Dany against Jon (and by extension Westeros).

There's certainly a credible story nugget in the idea that Westeros traded being ruled by one dynasty with weapons of mass destruction (dragons) for another weapon of mass destruction (unlimited, godlike knowledge). Unfortunately, that wasn't explored because of what I just said - there just wasn't enough done with Bran's abilities. I keep going back to that overlong destruction of Kings Landing. Was there anything done in that 30 minutes of screen time spent burning women and children that couldn't have been accomplished with 5 minutes, leaving 25 minutes to actually flesh some of this shit out?

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Reply #6625 on: May 25, 2019, 01:57:25 PM

You hit it right as that is what some of the Youtube commentators have been saying.  A GoT episode usually has lots of plotting and scheming and very little of fights and action sequences.  As the book material ran out they have been shifting from plot to spectacle.  So it no longer feels like Thrones but more like a big dumb action movie.
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Reply #6626 on: May 25, 2019, 02:01:26 PM

To some degree, that's what the audience wanted. All the non-book-reading guys I work with complained when things moved slow and only seemed to enjoy the big, spectacle battles. This is a sample size of three, I know, but if that's what people were saying in reviews/focus groups/whatever, maybe that's why D&D focused things in that direction.

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Reply #6627 on: May 25, 2019, 02:33:37 PM

Yup, and the reason people are really pissed about the ending is the Dany heel turn, not the rushed plot, the bad writing or the complete departure in tone from earlier seasons. That silly petition came up right after ep 5 for a reason.

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Reply #6628 on: May 25, 2019, 05:34:21 PM

I was in favor of the big spectacle battles, in fact I loved the Battle of Winterfell episode despite recognizing some of the flaws. However, the destruction of King's Landing was just gratuitous, just over and over the same scenes of wanton destruction. By about the 10th minute, I was just "HOLY FUCK, WE GET IT."

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Reply #6629 on: May 25, 2019, 08:39:21 PM

It's not perfect but it's a shit ton better than anything in S8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0mncEl4nVU

That's pathetic writing that doesn't understand Game of Thrones at all. Doesn't even approach it.

Much like videogames, it's a GOOD thing when the fantasy nerds don't write the plot. You get writers to do the writing, not devs who think their fanfic skills are awesome.
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Reply #6630 on: May 26, 2019, 03:41:19 PM

It's not perfect but it's a shit ton better than anything in S8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0mncEl4nVU

That's pathetic writing that doesn't understand Game of Thrones at all. Doesn't even approach it.

Much like videogames, it's a GOOD thing when the fantasy nerds don't write the plot. You get writers to do the writing, not devs who think their fanfic skills are awesome.

Hence it not being perfect but better than S8. If a fan can at least put together a semi coherent story that is loosely based on the preceeding season, why couldn't D&D? Because S8 made no sense at all.

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Reply #6631 on: May 26, 2019, 06:01:32 PM

You hit it right as that is what some of the Youtube commentators have been saying.  A GoT episode usually has lots of plotting and scheming and very little of fights and action sequences.  As the book material ran out they have been shifting from plot to spectacle.  So it no longer feels like Thrones but more like a big dumb action movie.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/

Pretty decent points, even if it does gloss over some of the book issues.

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Reply #6632 on: May 26, 2019, 06:11:23 PM

So what exactly was out of the blue and not based upon what was laid out in prior seasons?

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Reply #6633 on: May 26, 2019, 07:00:28 PM

Much like videogames, it's a GOOD thing when the fantasy nerds don't write the plot. You get writers to do the writing, not devs who think their fanfic skills are awesome.

Hence it not being perfect but better than S8. If a fan can at least put together a semi coherent story that is loosely based on the preceeding season, why couldn't D&D? Because S8 made no sense at all.

Daenerys was always a weird scary mess that we were led to forgive because she was a main character on a clear path.
Jon was always the confused tool of an unseen hand, and really just wanted to be a wildling.
Everyone else became what they were destined to be, though some stories could have been better realised.
It was put together from Sketches For Two Novels I May Not Write Excuse Me My Burger Is Here, but to me it was a B+ and made sense.
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Reply #6634 on: May 26, 2019, 11:25:03 PM

So what exactly was out of the blue and not based upon what was laid out in prior seasons?

Dany was a scary mess, but she never willingly executed women and children to my memory.
Jamie went through an entire complete, sensible story arc where he became a more complete character, only to piss it all away for a shitty death by stones.
Bran is... well, honestly, I still don't know what the fuck Bran is supposed to be and clearly neither did the showrunners. Or Martin, I'm guessing.
The entirety of the King choosing council.

Riggswolfe
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Reply #6635 on: May 26, 2019, 11:52:35 PM

So what exactly was out of the blue and not based upon what was laid out in prior seasons?

Dany was a scary mess, but she never willingly executed women and children to my memory.
Jamie went through an entire complete, sensible story arc where he became a more complete character, only to piss it all away for a shitty death by stones.
Bran is... well, honestly, I still don't know what the fuck Bran is supposed to be and clearly neither did the showrunners. Or Martin, I'm guessing.
The entirety of the King choosing council.

Tyrion actually fairly well lays out what was going on with Dany when he talks to Jon. Paraphrasing but it was a series of "She killed these people, and we cheered because they were bad people. Repeat over and over. Now she's decided that what she does is for the greater good always." Dany's heelturn wasn't out of the blue and to say it was is fairly ridiculous. It was handled way too quickly but the groundwork had been there since season one when she coldly watched her brother die in a horrible way.

Jamie's story is interested. I'll try to find the Youtube video later but it basically boils down to his redemption could never be fully realized simply because if he had truly "redeemed" himself and left his sister and their unborn child to do, he would not have truly been redeemed at all. You can say dying by being crushed to death was unworthy but in many ways, his story had to end as it did to stay true to his character. Sure, a lot of us wanted him to totally change and stay with Brienne but it'd have been false.

Bran. Nothing to say. He suffered the most because of the shortened seasons I think.

I liked the council though I saw a great meme about it.

Tyrion talks about how a story has power and no one has a better story than Bran.
Arya who has traveled all over Westeros, learned to kill from some of the scariest people on the planet, knows how to switch faces after learning from and then defying the Faceless Men, and also killed the Night King.  "Bran has what now?"

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Reply #6636 on: May 27, 2019, 12:36:54 AM

Jamie's story is interested. I'll try to find the Youtube video later but it basically boils down to his redemption could never be fully realized simply because if he had truly "redeemed" himself and left his sister and their unborn child to do, he would not have truly been redeemed at all. You can say dying by being crushed to death was unworthy but in many ways, his story had to end as it did to stay true to his character. Sure, a lot of us wanted him to totally change and stay with Brienne but it'd have been false.

I'm on board with a lot of the complaints about this season, but I think the cries of "but Jamie's redemption arc!" are kinda dumb. The guy pushed a 10 year old kid out a window because he got caught fucking his sister. I realize we're dealing with Fantasy fiction here and all, but it's still maybe a bridge too far to me when people suggest his slate is wiped clean because he's been a decent fella the last few years. In a series filled with horrible people, attempted child-murder is still one of the more cold-blooded acts we witness. I think they actually ended up going the better route by having him acknowledge that he's kind of a shit person, doesn't deserve a happy ending with Brienne, and still cares enough about his sister/ex that he wants to try to prevent her from being melted by a dragon.
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Reply #6637 on: May 27, 2019, 12:45:43 AM

Thinking back on it, Jaime is basically constantly telling people "no, I am still a shit person" in one way or another whenever they try to lavish praise on him. 

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Reply #6638 on: May 27, 2019, 03:29:10 AM

That goes for everyone who turns. It is GRRMs main trick.

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Reply #6639 on: May 27, 2019, 06:09:16 AM

Jamie should have died, but before he does, Arya finds him in the ruins. He gives a sorry speech and THEN dies.  and kills his sister and tells her it was all because Bran got pushed out of a window. The End.

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Reply #6640 on: May 27, 2019, 07:17:05 AM

There certainly was a distinct lack of face stealing in the final season.
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Reply #6641 on: May 27, 2019, 07:26:20 AM

So what exactly was out of the blue and not based upon what was laid out in prior seasons?

Dany was a scary mess, but she never willingly executed women and children to my memory.

Not only did she never willingly execute women and children but almost every time she was a "scary mess" was a direct result of others harming innocents.

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Reply #6642 on: May 27, 2019, 07:57:09 AM

Put me in the Dany heel turn could have felt less her going insane but it wasn't some terrible gaping plot hole.

Example if we had seen a few more peasants rejecting her. Or some kind of insurgency type action killing of one of her unsullied. Just some kind of fuck these ugly people trigger. That would have been nice. The bells bit was handled very poorly but the overall idea was not a problem worth crying over.

Magic crossbows + magic boats were way worse.

Bran is the only choice for king because of his story was worse.

The rest of the season did fine. But internet is going to internet.

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Threash
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Reply #6643 on: May 27, 2019, 08:11:08 AM

It would have made a lot more sense if it was as it probably was intended to be: against Aegon, loved by the people and allied with Dorne.

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Reply #6644 on: May 27, 2019, 10:32:44 AM

Yeah, at this point my assumption is that Dany starts losing it in the books with everything that's happening at Mereen.  Then gets news that Aegon is a thing and has rightfully taken the thing she's spent so much time obsessing over.  Finally listens to what the crazy witch people have been telling her, and goes East to Asshai.  There she fully flips either from power or magics corrupting her or whatever the fuck, and fully becomes a villain.  THEN sails to Westeros.  Then becomes mad queen on Dragons burning everything for the glory of the Lord of Light.  If you want to take the major plot beats of the show and put them into the current trajectory of the books.

Which would be an awesome turn of events, unexpected but not illogical, and I'd totally love!  But instead we got Dany going from completely stable child loving over the top goody two shoes who only ever hurt the worst people on the planet (unlike most other characters in this show who are far more shades of grey) up until Season 8 Episode 4, where suddenly she breaks down from friends dying.  Then in Episode 5, she back tracks and decides she will not take what is hers by fire and blood as she promised all these years.  Instead when what is hers was handed to her, she decided to burn down her entire birth right because she no longer wants it and the sweet sound of children screaming to death is the only thing that makes her feel human anymore after the loss of her friends (which is the only motivation one can assume based on events shown on screen.  Else her reason was 'no reason').  It's just a bit jarring.

Again, if the napkin outline GRRM handed to them was: "Dany goes crazy and burns Kings Landing, Jon eventually stabs backstabs her (finally doing something very un-Jon Snow like), and Bran ends up on the thone."  I'm totally fine with that.  There are a hundred ways to get to that.  But from a mix of self inflicted rushed story telling, and just lazy writing, we got the ridiculousness that was season 8.
It's not perfect but it's a shit ton better than anything in S8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0mncEl4nVU

That's pathetic writing that doesn't understand Game of Thrones at all. Doesn't even approach it.

Much like videogames, it's a GOOD thing when the fantasy nerds don't write the plot. You get writers to do the writing, not devs who think their fanfic skills are awesome.
That ending is still silly, but way better than what we got, and most importantly, 100% more Game of Thrones that what we got.  The writers the last two seasons showed they did not understand Game of Thrones, and what made it a cultural phenomenon watched by everybody.  This season is night and day different than almost everything that came before it.  I 100% defended this series from everybody (on this board and without) up through season 5.  Season 6 suddenly became very hit or miss, swinging between awesome episodes and some terribly lazy writing episodes, but I was still on board because it was still hitting some great high notes despite the unevenness.  Then season 7 was mostly a god damned waste of time that finally pierced my wall of naive solidarity, but still, I was pumped for this season assuming the 2 fucking year break they took would let them flesh out a well crafted ending.  ALAS.

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Reply #6645 on: May 27, 2019, 12:03:22 PM

the book ending if it had ever been made would be worse. way worse. stop telling yourself otherwise.

GRRM has no plan let alone a good plan. the most honest telling by him would completely sideline the north -you know the region where everyone readers give a fuck about comes from- they have almost no adult high lords left and would be licking their wounds ignoring any ravens at this point if he were being honest. the lords of the vale don't make any more sense and they are just as boring in the books as the show though so that's a mess he'd have to clean up somehow if he's going to use them. so we have crownlands/reach/west v fresh dorne/depleted stormlords. could be fun but where's the ending?

Dany and her dragons in the book short of euron's magic horn better be unstoppable in the books. sure someone will treachery kill one of them because its GRRM and that's his actual only move but a fight where its Dany vs whoever won from the Griff vs Cersei fight is a boring fucking thing.

maybe the show dropped the ball by not having her just burn all king's landing from the start. we could have had the massive cost of the war vs the dead played up (very few unsullied left, the last dothraki desert her instead of suddenly there are tons of both like we got, lots of shots of how everyone is walking wounded or don't want to fight any more etc), how she now barely had the forces to win without unleashing drogon all because cersei left her to fight the damn thing by herself. so fuck them. that would have worked fine. could have had a cool scene where someone is racing to ring the bells and she just blows up the goddamn belltower. i would have loved that.

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Reply #6646 on: May 27, 2019, 12:22:40 PM

I didn't say Dany's madness was a heel turn or out of the blue. The DEPTH of her mad queen burninating the women and children felt so sudden because it WAS so sudden. There was just no time for buildup and I get that the writers tried. However, she went from "free the slaves!" to "fuck it, kill them all" and the only real motivators we got from the show was her gradual isolation from the nobility of Westeros because they clearly favored Jon over her as a ruler. Yes, the deaths of Missandei and Jorah would have impacted her but without the time to actually see that happen, it made the change feel more like a flipped switch than a gradual descent into madness. It felt very Anakin turns to the Dark Side because neither of them gave that part of the character arc time to breathe.

As for Jamie, just because he would choose to stay with Brienne doesn't mean his arc was one of full redemption, nor did anyone have to stop feeding him a heaping pile of shit to remind him of just how shit he is. The entirety of the show just the name he kept getting called was a painful reminder of how his reputation was earned. He stabbed his king in the back in order to save thousands of innocents. I'm perfectly fine with a character who recognizes that he's not at all a good person being rewarded for trying to get his shit straight. His regression was infuriating simply because of how far he'd come and, like Dany, how quickly he snapped back to a one-dimensional idiot.

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Reply #6647 on: May 27, 2019, 12:56:52 PM

As for Jamie, just because he would choose to stay with Brienne doesn't mean his arc was one of full redemption, nor did anyone have to stop feeding him a heaping pile of shit to remind him of just how shit he is. The entirety of the show just the name he kept getting called was a painful reminder of how his reputation was earned. He stabbed his king in the back in order to save thousands of innocents. I'm perfectly fine with a character who recognizes that he's not at all a good person being rewarded for trying to get his shit straight. His regression was infuriating simply because of how far he'd come and, like Dany, how quickly he snapped back to a one-dimensional idiot.

I don't see it as a regression. It's not like he did anything evil in the course of the last couple episodes. Thankfully I don't think any of us will have to experience the ex that we had three kids with (and another on the way) also being our sister, but I can understand Jamie not wanting to see her killed despite everything she's done.

Redemption arcs are generally Fantasy trope nonsense. People don't go through their lives being evil and then come to the revelation that they've been a bit of a cunt this whole time and should probably change. If someone told you they once tried to kill a kid by pushing him out a window, it probably wouldn't matter to you that they later fought off a bear to help protect a woman. Again, I get that this is fiction so we might excuse some shit we would never excuse in real life, but it baffles me how some people praise early GoT for subverting tropes, but then get upset that the TV show didn't fully follow through with one of the tropiest tropes that ever troped.
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Reply #6648 on: May 27, 2019, 01:45:28 PM



Which would be an awesome turn of events, unexpected but not illogical, and I'd totally love!  But instead we got Dany going from completely stable child loving over the top goody two shoes who only ever hurt the worst people on the planet (unlike most other characters in this show who are far more shades of grey) up until Season 8 Episode 4, where suddenly she breaks down from friends dying.  Then in Episode 5, she back tracks and decides she will not take what is hers by fire and blood as she promised all these years.  Instead when what is hers was handed to her, she decided to burn down her entire birth right because she no longer wants it and the sweet sound of children screaming to death is the only thing that makes her feel human anymore after the loss of her friends (which is the only motivation one can assume based on events shown on screen.  Else her reason was 'no reason').  It's just a bit jarring.



Completely stable? Are you sure you've watched this show and/or read the books? The hints have been there from the very start. There are several times where she says something like "I'm going to burn down their cities" and someone in her retinue talks her out of it. Usually Tyrion or Missandei. The most logical reading of this final season is that the pressure became too much and she lost or stopped trusting those who essentially acted as her conscience. It was way too rushed. The comparison to Anakin made by Haemish is right on point. But it wasn't as massive of a turn as you seem to believe here. The only way to make that statement is to have willfully ignored the hints we've gotten all along. I think most of us thought it was just teases but it was there.

As for Jamie, just because he would choose to stay with Brienne doesn't mean his arc was one of full redemption, nor did anyone have to stop feeding him a heaping pile of shit to remind him of just how shit he is. The entirety of the show just the name he kept getting called was a painful reminder of how his reputation was earned. He stabbed his king in the back in order to save thousands of innocents. I'm perfectly fine with a character who recognizes that he's not at all a good person being rewarded for trying to get his shit straight. His regression was infuriating simply because of how far he'd come and, like Dany, how quickly he snapped back to a one-dimensional idiot.

I don't see it as a regression. It's not like he did anything evil in the course of the last couple episodes. Thankfully I don't think any of us will have to experience the ex that we had three kids with (and another on the way) also being our sister, but I can understand Jamie not wanting to see her killed despite everything she's done.

Redemption arcs are generally Fantasy trope nonsense. People don't go through their lives being evil and then come to the revelation that they've been a bit of a cunt this whole time and should probably change. If someone told you they once tried to kill a kid by pushing him out a window, it probably wouldn't matter to you that they later fought off a bear to help protect a woman. Again, I get that this is fiction so we might excuse some shit we would never excuse in real life, but it baffles me how some people praise early GoT for subverting tropes, but then get upset that the TV show didn't fully follow through with one of the tropiest tropes that ever troped.

I find it odd that people are referring to Jaime's actions as one dimensional. Having him stay with Brienne and live happily ever after would be the one dimensional choice. He was always a character with conflicted loyalties and ideals and at the end of the day he couldn't bring himself to abandon Cersei in her time of need. He knew she was a bad person. Tyrion calls him out on this. But he just can't help himself.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Threash
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8315


Reply #6649 on: May 27, 2019, 01:58:37 PM

Yes, Dany always talked a lot of shit but all the times she actually did do something it was to protect innocents.

I am the .00000001428%
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