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Khaldun
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Reply #5600 on: August 28, 2017, 06:31:27 AM

Casterly to KL is not that ridiculous a march, but they keep on talking the bullshit about Cersei's armies this and Cersei's armies that and how she's going to retake southern Westeros if Dany moves north. WHAT ARMIES? If the Unsullied and Dothraki can move unimpeded around southern Westeros and Casterly's been taken, the only army she has is in KL. And it can't be that big--she lost a lot of troops at the Loot Train (as well as all the food she needed).

So now it seems clear that Cersei really does have a bun in the oven--I though it was possible she was faking it. But it's also clear she had a private consultation with Euron--so I wouldn't be at all surprised if it's Euron's.

Shannow
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Reply #5601 on: August 28, 2017, 07:31:10 AM

Um she explicitly mentions the 50k Golden Company in this very episode??

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Merusk
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Reply #5602 on: August 28, 2017, 08:53:26 AM

I hear Arya's got a new friend on Facebook. Wonder if she'll use those connections.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Khaldun
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Reply #5603 on: August 28, 2017, 09:11:11 AM

But nobody else knows about the Golden Company, so why is anyone else afraid of Cersei's non-existent armies? That's the entire reason for wanting a truce--the supposed fear that Cersei will march some nonexistent armies that don't have any food all over southern Westeros. The whole Golden Company thing is in fact confirmation that she's got no armies, which everyone else should know already. The point of not sacking KL is just not to incur civilian casualties plus I assume Cersei has just enough of a force to hold the walls for a bit.

Also btw, the idea that a *million* people live in KL and that they don't have a secure food supply is fucking nuts. Hangzhou was probably the biggest city in the medieval world at 2 million-ish due in part to refugees from the north flooding in, and the Southern Song spent much of their administrative time desperately remaking surrounding districts into more efficient rice-producers to deal with it. They also had to construct the most elaborate premodern system ever for fighting fires. Paris on the verge of the Black Death in the 14th Century was maybe the biggest in Western Europe at 200,000. Constantinople might have hit a million before falling to the Turks. And all of those cities also spent all their time trying to secure their supply lines. London got hit by a peasant revolt because of it.

That was literally like someone pointing to an aerial shot of New York City today and saying, "1 billion people live there!"
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Reply #5604 on: August 28, 2017, 09:11:38 AM

Um she explicitly mentions the 50k Golden Company in this very episode??
This gives me hope that my 'Iron Bank sends the Golden Company to actually betray and loot/burn Kings Landing' theory is true.  Not that the writers seem to care about any consistency, but Cersei is breaking an Oath about fighting against the enemy of all life, so it would fit.  Also would make true Dany's vision of walking through a burned down Red Keep way back in what ever season (bittersweet victory over the undead, now nothing to claim back home.  Time to found Queens Landing!).
I hear Arya's got a new friend on Facebook. Wonder if she'll use those connections.
Heh, nice.  Hadn't thought about that.  Though Christ, I guess I should have figured they'd have no time to explain Littlefingers master plan, and just kill that plot off for time constraints.  I mean, I have no idea still in the TV show what the fuck he was trying to accomplish in his quest for power.  Book Littlefinger still has hopes for greatness.  Should not have drafted the fucker, almost no points the whole season.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 09:14:59 AM by Teleku »

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jgsugden
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Reply #5605 on: August 28, 2017, 09:26:44 AM

Not that it matters, but was it 20K or 50k troops?

Disappointed in the death. I was expecting him to pull out one more trick that he thought would keep him safe... only to have Arya shrug off the trickery and end him. The Littlefinger I knew should not have been exposed in that room... Not after hearing Bran and seeing Arya.

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #5606 on: August 28, 2017, 09:57:45 AM

I blame anime for giving people unrealistic expectations  of smart characters that are always 100 steps ahead as plot demands.  LF was a brilliant tactician but the game he had been playing was being changed at an ever increasing pace as the storyline went on.  Should LF have run when Bran gave him the heads up that he was onto LF's shit? Maybe but LF has always been an arrogant character who underestimates those around him and it led to his death.

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Reply #5607 on: August 28, 2017, 10:03:27 AM

Maybe but LF has always been an arrogant character who underestimates those around him and it led to his death.

that's not LF at all.

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Merusk
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Reply #5608 on: August 28, 2017, 10:11:12 AM

Yeah, LF was undone by his hubris. He was CONVINCED he still had Sansa in his pocket. Half the viewing audience was convinced he had Sansa in his pocket, dancing to the discord he was working on between the Starks. I kept thinking what a fool Sansa had become this season after learning the game two seasons ago.

Him being completely wrong about it was perfect. Him realizing how badly he'd miscalculated, and breaking to the point of begging on his knees? Yeah, that was it.


Heh, nice.  Hadn't thought about that.  Though Christ, I guess I should have figured they'd have no time to explain Littlefingers master plan, and just kill that plot off for time constraints.  I mean, I have no idea still in the TV show what the fuck he was trying to accomplish in his quest for power.  Book Littlefinger still has hopes for greatness.  Should not have drafted the fucker, almost no points the whole season.

All he was trying to do was laid out three or four seasons ago. He was a nobody from a nothing house when he began. His single goal was personal power and getting as high as he could so he was never shit on again. Littlefinger was out for Littlefinger and he had a vision to become the King. Was it modified along the way? Yes, but he always saw himself as being able to climb into a position of power as the Chaos he sowed kept bringing him opportunities. Chaos is a ladder.

He rose up to being one of the most powerful men in Westeros. I'd say he damn near got himself crowned King. He felt he could play Sansa into become Queen in the North, play on her feelings and become her husband, then, well, things happen. It's a dangerous place. After that? Well, he now controls the North and East being warden of the Vale. Betrothal or Betrayal, he's getting onto the Iron Throne.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Speedy Cerviche
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Reply #5609 on: August 28, 2017, 10:11:36 AM

But nobody else knows about the Golden Company, so why is anyone else afraid of Cersei's non-existent armies? That's the entire reason for wanting a truce--the supposed fear that Cersei will march some nonexistent armies that don't have any food all over southern Westeros. The whole Golden Company thing is in fact confirmation that she's got no armies, which everyone else should know already. The point of not sacking KL is just not to incur civilian casualties plus I assume Cersei has just enough of a force to hold the walls for a bit.

Also btw, the idea that a *million* people live in KL and that they don't have a secure food supply is fucking nuts. Hangzhou was probably the biggest city in the medieval world at 2 million-ish due in part to refugees from the north flooding in, and the Southern Song spent much of their administrative time desperately remaking surrounding districts into more efficient rice-producers to deal with it. They also had to construct the most elaborate premodern system ever for fighting fires. Paris on the verge of the Black Death in the 14th Century was maybe the biggest in Western Europe at 200,000. Constantinople might have hit a million before falling to the Turks. And all of those cities also spent all their time trying to secure their supply lines. London got hit by a peasant revolt because of it.

That was literally like someone pointing to an aerial shot of New York City today and saying, "1 billion people live there!"

Isn't KL supposed to be like Constantinople though?
Shannow
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Reply #5610 on: August 28, 2017, 10:31:28 AM

People who worry about the food supply and firefighting capabilities of completely mythical cities suck all the joy out of life..:P  Just sayin'

Be a fun twist if the Night King said, '1 million ppl? Fuck that shithole Winterfell, let's head south boys!'

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Reply #5611 on: August 28, 2017, 10:32:15 AM

I hear Arya's got a new friend on Facebook. Wonder if she'll use those connections.
Heh, nice.  Hadn't thought about that.  Though Christ, I guess I should have figured they'd have no time to explain Littlefingers master plan, and just kill that plot off for time constraints.  I mean, I have no idea still in the TV show what the fuck he was trying to accomplish in his quest for power.  Book Littlefinger still has hopes for greatness.  Should not have drafted the fucker, almost no points the whole season.

It occurs to me now that Arya dressed as Littlefinger is going to be what finally kills Cersei off.

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Reply #5612 on: August 28, 2017, 10:46:12 AM


But whatevs, only 7 more episodes and I never have to think about it again.

That was through a lot of inbreeding though. The Stark genes are stronk.

I thought the first book did a really good job setting that up with the genealogy book Ned found establishing the genetic rules of Westeros and then a bunch of data points you can use to make further inferences:
1) The son of a Baratheon father will take after the father.  (This was the proof Joffrey and Tommen were not Robert's sons.)
2) The son of a Stark father and Tully mother will take after the mother.  (Not shown in the show, but in the book Cat is very angsty about this.)
3) The Targaryens have very distinctive coloration and are also inbred as fuck.

My takeaway from this is that Baratheon color genes are patrilineal, Stark (and maybe Tully) color genes are matrilineal, and Targaryen color genes are recessive (hence the inbreeding -- any non-inbred Targ kids look like bastards).  Jon looks like a Stark because he has a Stark mother.  Arya is also called out in the book as the only other Stark kid who looks like a Stark, further proof that the Starks tend to pass on their looks through the X chromosome.

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Speedy Cerviche
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Reply #5613 on: August 28, 2017, 10:48:29 AM


This gives me hope that my 'Iron Bank sends the Golden Company to actually betray and loot/burn Kings Landing' theory is true.  Not that the writers seem to care about any consistency, but Cersei is breaking an Oath about fighting against the enemy of all life, so it would fit.  

I like that prediction, and maybe the way she's been all family this - family that recently is foreshadowing a bit since it would be poetic justice after all it was her father who betrayed the old Targaryen king who let the Lannister army through the gates, who then immediately sacked the place.
Speedy Cerviche
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Reply #5614 on: August 28, 2017, 11:20:54 AM

Oh yeah and just gotta say I was LOL'ing pretty hard at the creepy dwarf moment during the sex scenes. Hopefully Tyrion can pull some weight there for the remainder now that Littlefinger's bought the farm.
Teleku
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Reply #5615 on: August 28, 2017, 11:28:42 AM

Yeah, LF was undone by his hubris. He was CONVINCED he still had Sansa in his pocket. Half the viewing audience was convinced he had Sansa in his pocket, dancing to the discord he was working on between the Starks. I kept thinking what a fool Sansa had become this season after learning the game two seasons ago.

Him being completely wrong about it was perfect. Him realizing how badly he'd miscalculated, and breaking to the point of begging on his knees? Yeah, that was it.


Heh, nice.  Hadn't thought about that.  Though Christ, I guess I should have figured they'd have no time to explain Littlefingers master plan, and just kill that plot off for time constraints.  I mean, I have no idea still in the TV show what the fuck he was trying to accomplish in his quest for power.  Book Littlefinger still has hopes for greatness.  Should not have drafted the fucker, almost no points the whole season.

All he was trying to do was laid out three or four seasons ago. He was a nobody from a nothing house when he began. His single goal was personal power and getting as high as he could so he was never shit on again. Littlefinger was out for Littlefinger and he had a vision to become the King. Was it modified along the way? Yes, but he always saw himself as being able to climb into a position of power as the Chaos he sowed kept bringing him opportunities. Chaos is a ladder.

He rose up to being one of the most powerful men in Westeros. I'd say he damn near got himself crowned King. He felt he could play Sansa into become Queen in the North, play on her feelings and become her husband, then, well, things happen. It's a dangerous place. After that? Well, he now controls the North and East being warden of the Vale. Betrothal or Betrayal, he's getting onto the Iron Throne.
OK.  It made a broad, vague sense in the TV series, but honestly, wasn't lined out well at all.  You can assume anything you want, but what we got was:  Step 1:  LF takes control of the vale.  Step 2:  allies with Sansa in hopes of taking the north/fucking her, Step 3: ......who the fuck knows.

In the book its heavily implied little finger has crazy plans, and while I'm TOTALLY fine with those plans falling apart and him dying in the process, you'd at least expect to have an explanation of what he was trying to do in that case.  He was very powerful as the Master of Coin.  It was talked about, at great lengths, in the book that he wanted more.  So basically running the kingdom.  There is little information about how that, or something like it, was going to happen on his current crazy path.  Which hey, his goal might have been to fuck an underage teenage girl that looked like the former love of his life, and I guess hurrah for having specific goals and all that, but it makes for shitty TV.

It does make me sleep at night that they may have taken this from a GRRM outline, which means that Sansa eventually learns all the tricks of state craft/fuckery, finds out about him betraying her father, and does him in.  Something I've been hoping for since before this millennium began.

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Polysorbate80
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Reply #5616 on: August 28, 2017, 11:56:27 AM

I vaguely recall the books pointing out that Littlefinger is quick on his mental feet-- the whole accusation involving the knife used on Bran was a spur-of-the-moment thing, wasn't it?  It's not that he doesn't have plans, but I don't get the feeling he's married to a master plan.  He's constantly rolling with the flow to adapt to changes.

His mistake was forgetting Sansa knows how he operates, and thinking she hadn't grown up.

There are mentions in the books of dark-haired Targaryens.

I think the number quoted for the golden company was 20,000.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 11:58:40 AM by Polysorbate80 »
Merusk
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Reply #5617 on: August 28, 2017, 12:48:19 PM

Littfinger had a master strategy; use chaos to climb higher and higher in power, with a goal of King/ Regent/ Hand. The tactics he used to further that goal varied based on the pieces on the board and whatever might be most advantageous for his strategy to use.  Betray Ned, save Ned. Fuck Sansa, sell Sansa to the Boltons. Marry Lyssa, throw Lyssa out a window.

Never mistake the strategy for the tactics. Or the ability for a strategist to completely abandon a plan if a newer, more advantageous one shows up.

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eldaec
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Reply #5618 on: August 28, 2017, 03:16:30 PM

In both book and show Littlefinger's "strategy" is just be confident he's smarter than everyone else. He fucked up, he died. I'm ok with that.

Suspect if tv wasn't phoning it in there would be a better story behind it but it was fine.


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WayAbvPar
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Reply #5619 on: August 28, 2017, 03:22:11 PM

Pretty satisfying finale. I was not expecting the Littlefinger twist, but was ecstatic when it happened. Really liked the scene with Sansa and Arya reminiscing about Ned too...that really strengthened the point that LF was never going to split them.

I was disappointed that the zombagon didn't breathe ice, but it was kinda cool to see it destroy the Wall with blue fire.

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Khaldun
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Reply #5620 on: August 28, 2017, 03:24:28 PM

I like the Iron Bank sends the Golden Company to loot KL theory. That would be fun. It would be interesting if Cersei then has to flee north with her few remaining loyalists and that's how she ends up re-encountering her now-bitter enemies.
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #5621 on: August 28, 2017, 04:28:45 PM

*Dracolich

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Cheddar
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Reply #5622 on: August 28, 2017, 04:53:51 PM

Sweet, I won the league by dumb luck.   awesome, for real

No Nerf, but I put a link to this very thread and I said that you all can guarantee for my purity. I even mentioned your case, and see if they can take a look at your lawn from a Michigan perspective.
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Reply #5623 on: August 28, 2017, 05:25:19 PM

Tyrion being totally worthless was depressing. If I'd chosen Arya instead of him it would've been smooth sailing.
Khaldun
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Reply #5624 on: August 28, 2017, 05:30:46 PM

I'm trying to remember where Tyrion lost his cock, because it wasn't at the same time as Theon. This was the guy who was willing to fight, to plot, and to shoot his fucker of a father through the cock while he was shitting. And to murder his former lover.

Then he got drunk, hung out with a eunuch spy, was kidnapped by a maniac, was briefly enslaved, and met an ambitious lady who had some bad enemies. This somehow resulted in him becoming a rather cheerless Protestant who has a bunch of stupid plans.

Dinklage had one modestly good scene the entire season, which was with Cersei. The rest was of him being a bore, a wet blanket, and a seriously dumb fuck advisor who should have already been used as dragon food. What happened?
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Reply #5625 on: August 28, 2017, 05:33:26 PM

I picked him first pick of the draft?
Tale
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Reply #5626 on: August 28, 2017, 05:54:21 PM

I'm trying to remember where Tyrion lost his cock, because it wasn't at the same time as Theon. This was the guy who was willing to fight, to plot, and to shoot his fucker of a father through the cock while he was shitting. And to murder his former lover.

Then he got drunk, hung out with a eunuch spy, was kidnapped by a maniac, was briefly enslaved, and met an ambitious lady who had some bad enemies. This somehow resulted in him becoming a rather cheerless Protestant who has a bunch of stupid plans.

Dinklage had one modestly good scene the entire season, which was with Cersei. The rest was of him being a bore, a wet blanket, and a seriously dumb fuck advisor who should have already been used as dragon food. What happened?

White Walkers are real. Wights are real. Dragons are real. The ambitious lady turned out to be worthy. Think back to a comment about Grumpkins and Snarks. Tyrion was humbled by his worldview ending. He became serious.
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Reply #5627 on: August 28, 2017, 06:25:33 PM

A stupid thought that someone should turn into a proper meme. Spoiler.

Khaldun
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Reply #5628 on: August 28, 2017, 06:34:29 PM

Heh.

---------

So, yeah--he was humbled and became serious. Dinklage should have had at least one scene written to exactly that point--he's maybe the only actor in the whole thing who could have pulled that off and even carried the rest of us along with him. He thought life was just tits, wine, and outwitting his evil nephew and then he was threatened with death, saw a good man die on his behalf, killed his father and lover, escaped into exile, found himself, and then found out dragons and wights were real. He grew up, fine! But he should get to talk about that.
Rishathra
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Reply #5629 on: August 28, 2017, 07:38:07 PM

I thought it was less that his plans were shit, more that his boss was too impatient to let his plans come to fruition.

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Phildo
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Reply #5630 on: August 28, 2017, 08:18:58 PM

What good are plans if your enemy's armies and navies can pingpong around the continent foiling them all in a single episode?
Ginaz
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Reply #5631 on: August 28, 2017, 08:35:14 PM

I like the Iron Bank sends the Golden Company to loot KL theory. That would be fun. It would be interesting if Cersei then has to flee north with her few remaining loyalists and that's how she ends up re-encountering her now-bitter enemies.


Wasn't the Golden Company in the books a bunch of displaced former Westeros noblemen who were loyal to the Targaryens or something like that?
Threash
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Reply #5632 on: August 28, 2017, 08:50:17 PM

I like the Iron Bank sends the Golden Company to loot KL theory. That would be fun. It would be interesting if Cersei then has to flee north with her few remaining loyalists and that's how she ends up re-encountering her now-bitter enemies.


Wasn't the Golden Company in the books a bunch of displaced former Westeros noblemen who were loyal to the Targaryens or something like that?

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Reply #5633 on: August 28, 2017, 09:58:44 PM

I thought it was less that his plans were shit, more that his boss was too impatient to let his plans come to fruition.

You will probably enjoy this article: https://www.vox.com/culture/2017/8/28/16205048/game-of-thrones-season-7-cersei-daenerys-jon-snow
Khaldun
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Reply #5634 on: August 28, 2017, 10:16:00 PM

Thumbs up. Great piece.
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