Random nerd thread unrelated to orig. topic. Current: Tanks vs Mechs!

[WindupAtheist]

Then they cancel each other out and it becomes completely plausible.

[Merusk]

Hell, the first to unlock a functional and self replicating nanobot technology will probably dominate the planet in an instant.

We still can't fucking make flying cars. Nanobots indeed!

Flying cars would be even more impractical than mechs, without even mentioning the increased fuel consumption when compared to land vehicles.  We would see nanomachines long before any flying personal vehicles of that type.

[WindupAtheist]

Flying cars.

Fucking people can't even put their turn signals on before plowing across an intersection, and someone wants to put them all in aircraft? If this ever happens, I'm moving into a bunker.

[HaemishM]

Flying cars.

Fucking people can't even put their turn signals on before plowing across an intersection, and someone wants to put them all in aircraft? If this ever happens, I'm moving into a bunker.

Amen. I can only imagine the Darwinian population-thinning that would go on around here as the complete fucktards who can't drive worth a rat fuck with 2 axes on a dry empty road are suddenly given a Z-axis. It's raining fucktards, indeed.

[Venkman]

Only way flying cars work is fly-by-wire with cars relegated to air lanes based on size, direction headed, and number of people in the car.

In fact, I wish they'd get cracking on dirve-by-wire to prevent the idiocy on highways. Mass transit is the only other option but cars Save Jobs!!1/.1

[Aez]

Why would an Evangleiion be any more or less useful than a machine mech?

Like most of this debate, it depends of the context.  Having them in an age of advanced technology where machine beat bio would not make them useful - by then, human soldiers would also be out of the equation.

Near future however : a bio mech could be great for agility, autonomy and stealth.

meh

[Merusk]

Flying cars: Yeah, that's why I said there were impracticalities outside of just fuel.  Even assuming you only give licenses to people with a 10+ year history of 0 ground incidents (Including speeding tickets.) you then run into the problem of maintainability.  People don't maintain their cars, so they wouldn't maintain their flying cars either.  Which leads into the next problem, if your car gives up the ghost you're stranded on the side of the road.  If your flying car dies, so do you and hapless ground pounders.

[WindupAtheist]

What the hell is a "bio mech" and what the hell is it supposed to be good for? Because "bio" anything is usually right up there next to "nano" and "quantum" when it comes to sci-fi nonsense-wanking.

[Lantyssa]

I'm guessing you're not gonna like the quantum state nano bio mech I was about to propose...

[Ghambit]

/rambling

I'm a private pilot and I can tell you your tax dollars are already being filtered into an eventual system to enable more "normal" folk to fly planes (errrr.. flying cars).  HITS (highway in the sky) is already a reality and radar systems are currently being upgraded to provide improved traffic awareness and better automation.  Just the mere fact that planes are no longer using "steam gauges" means ease of transition into quality/safe flight;  fact is, if you buy a new plane these days, you'll be staring at the same computer screens that you are right now in this forum.  Your entire flight plan can be represented digitally (including topography) in front of your eyes... literally flying the plane like you're flying a simulator.  The automation between WAAS GPS, digital autopilot, computer system, and ground-based systems now allows planes to make it all the way to the ground in zero visibility.

Take all this and throw in the fact that there's no way in hell they're gonna undo post New-Deal Eisenhower infrastructure (i.e. an airfield every 20 miles or so) and composite construction (no maintenance needed) is getting simpler and cheaper every day, and you've got the recipe for the average joe to drive 10 minutes to the local field and fly to grandma's for dinner, and vice versa.  Throw in mandatory ballistic parachute recovery systems (the whole plane floats to the ground if there's a problem), portable traffic separation, and 35+ mpg (sometimes better, even in planes that haul ass), and you get more people flying to work.

Next year we'll see the 1st real viable "road-driveable plane," but it's emergent tech. and definitely not high performance by any stretch.  But it's a start.  IMO, there are so many goddamned airports in America that having a plane and a bicycle is usually enough.  And since your fuel and tax dollars pay for the fixed-based operators, most of the time they'll loan you a car or drive you wherever you need for FREE.  Not really necessary to have a "flying car" 'cept to appease American garage egos... you still have to takeoff and land at an airport regardless.

The amount of resources the American pilot is given for free is mind-boggling.  If anyone has the ability to put cars in the sky it's definitely us.  As of now though, these resources are seriously underused and in danger of being scrapped.  And if it werent for the fact that the General Aviation special interest was so powerful I'm sure it would've.

[Ghambit]

In re. Biomech:
We can now grow pretty much anything over a protein framework (organs, skin, etc.).
Power suits ala Iron Man are already a reality, even ones with neural interfaces that run muscles OR machine... even remotely.
Only a matter of time before the two are combined or someone just goes balls-out and makes a 100% biological mech, engineered from the ground up to fight.

A biomech with the heart of a giraffe would be powerful enough to run a fairly large internal generator...  as long as it's not too big.  Want bigger?  Just engineer a larger heat-pump mechanism.  Either build it or genetically engineer it.  Or, just stick a halfnium reactor in there.  The mech. needs no brain because it's basically a "Golum."  Its operator is sitting in a couch somewhere sipping brandy while wearing an HMD and an EEG.

It can be done.  I'm pretty sure it has been.  We just dont know about it.  :)

[WindupAtheist]

Uh...

Um...

Why the hell would anyone want to make one of those?

[MahrinSkel]

Uh...

Um...

Why the hell would anyone want to make one of those?

My 3025 Technical Readout has a picture of a Marauder on the cover.  Who *wouldn't* want to make one of these?



In practical terms, Japan and the US have both developed the powered exoskeleton frames that would be at the core of true "powered armor", slap an inch-thick steel sheel around this and you've got Starship Troopers or Forever War combat suits:



Once you've done it for a powered armored shell, turning that into a 50-foot tall avatar of the God of Mechanized Death is just engineering.

--Dave

[Ghambit]

Uh...

Um...

Why the hell would anyone want to make one of those?

A biomech (over a standard mechanical mech) is quite literally the difference between the Alien (from the movie Alien) and the mech. suit Ripley wore to kill one.  A biological mech. can heal itself, react more quickly (due to the advantages of chemistry), and only needs to be fed organics to function... as opposed to some exotic power supply.  Cut a limb off and just regrow a limb.  Need power?  Eat a human... etc.

Also cant be seen on radar.  And why risk human flesh in war or anything dangerous for that matter (like running into a burning building, or building a skyscraper) when you can send a stronger, faster remotely operated artificial biological "Golum" instead?

Hell, eventually people will store their own consciousness' in these things; maybe even transplant their brains.  Sounds phreaky, but it's all plausible.

Reason why I'm even talking about this crap is because I actually had a game idea that revolved around this concept.  A player would basically control his own near-lifeless form (a psionic being in a stasis chamber) and that being would then control a quasi-slave biomech race via his/her mind.  There's then a resource/land grab fought out via the Golums and those "controllers" that were ever gotten to were permadeathed.  The UI is actually a next-gen gaming EEG; which you'd (as the controller) use to control the Golum(s).

Anyways, damned thing hasnt released yet...  http://www.emotiv.com/
You can DL an SDK with an emulator though if you want to try it out.

I'm feeling excessively kooky tonite... gotta be the x-mas food/drink 

[Rake]

I want a Robot for Christmas

[Falwell]

Holy shit who let the nerd bomb off in this thread?

Dave, that's a Battlemaster not a Marauder.

Shit....

[WindupAtheist]

herf

Mahrin, that last post of yours was a horrifying failure and you really need to go back and read the last few pages of this thread where every single thing you said was shown to be utterly and completely wrong. I'm just being blunt here.

insanity

So basically "biomechs" are about as sensible as bringing back war elephants unless you wank them out with so much "Wolverine healing factor and steel-hard biological armor" masturbatory nonsense that, as Ratman said, you're in the realm of dragon-riding Jedi and shit.

Listen you fucking people, I think everyone's waking up and it's almost time for the Christmas morning ritual, so I'll keep this short: Anime is not realistic, so quit felching this shit up and making me weep for humanity.

[Azazel]

[Azazel]

Now stop it.

[WindupAtheist]

I don't remember Obi-Wan looking quite that cheerful during his wartime mission to eliminate a rampaging atrocity-committing cyborg general. I mean just look at him. It's like they're riding together to Candyland.

[Ratman_tf]

I don't remember Obi-Wan looking quite that cheerful during his wartime mission to eliminate a rampaging atrocity-committing cyborg general. I mean just look at him. It's like they're riding together to Candyland.

I would love to have one of those chicken-lizards to ride to work.

[Lantyssa]

My 3025 Technical Readout has a picture of a Marauder on the cover.  Who *wouldn't* want to make one of these?

That's a Battlemaster.

Marauders have reverse-joint legs and twin PPC arms.  They're the Macross male Zentradi battlesuit rip-off.  (Incidentally one of my favorites.)

[Ratman_tf]

My 3025 Technical Readout has a picture of a Marauder on the cover.  Who *wouldn't* want to make one of these?

That's a Battlemaster.

Marauders have reverse-joint legs and twin PPC arms.  They're the Macross male Zentradi battlesuit rip-off.  (Incidentally one of my favorites.)

Can you name the original mech that the Battlemaster was ripped off from is based on, though? (I knew but had to google the exact name and anime.)

[tmp]

So basically "biomechs" are about as sensible as bringing back war elephants unless you wank them out with so much "Wolverine healing factor and steel-hard biological armor" masturbatory nonsense that, as Ratman said, you're in the realm of dragon-riding Jedi and shit.

No, it gets better actually. Evangelion bio-mechs are grown from angel flesh.

Or something; the whole 'let's use bunch of random names to appear deeeeep' thing never quite compelled me to figure it out.

[Ghambit]

insanity

So basically "biomechs" are about as sensible as bringing back war elephants unless you wank them out with so much "Wolverine healing factor and steel-hard biological armor" masturbatory nonsense that, as Ratman said, you're in the realm of dragon-riding Jedi and shit.

It's sensible because you would only need to GROW a biomech, rather than build him from diminishing resources (metals, composites, etc.).  And nothing is more efficient than biochemistry.  Eh man, it's either that or just make a Clone Army, but clones creep me out, I'd rather just grow a fresh new being.  Either way, it's more swarm tactics than anything else unless you laden them in armor as you suggest and make them walking tanks.  Technically, a biomech designed to push 100's of lbs of armor is better than trying to build armor that pushes itself with a human inside IMO.

Speaking of Dragons... how long before someone genetically Engineers one?  hmmm... make a good x-mas present

[Kail]

Mahrin, that last post of yours was a horrifying failure and you really need to go back and read the last few pages of this thread where every single thing you said was shown to be utterly and completely wrong. I'm just being blunt here.

I don't think anything here is really being "proven" here, so much as it's just people explaining different opinions on an extremely vague and hypothetical machine.

As far as I can tell, your argument is that because we don't have the tech to make it work/worthwhile now, it's never going to be feasable, and positing hypothetical tech which would change that is cyborg unicorn territory.  Which is a fine position to have, but it's not exactly GAME OVER for everyone else or anything.

I mean, come on, we're talking about grafting your brain to a giant, radar invisible cyborg-golem made of bacon... You can't argue against that.  Nothing can.

[WindupAtheist]

stuff

All you're really talking about, once you strip away the anime giant robot fetish terminology, are genetically engineered supersoldiers. Which I suppose is a viable idea, so long as it can be done economically, and so long as you don't make them forty foot tall bullet magnets just to satisfy said fetish.

other stuff

Wrong. Building an armored combat vehicle shaped like a human isn't stupid because we don't have the technology right now, it's stupid because it's stupid. It's not really any different than insisting that submarines would be better if they were shaped exactly like whales and propelled themselves with mechanical fins, or that airplanes should flap their wings like birds.

[Kail]

Wrong. Building an armored combat vehicle shaped like a human isn't stupid because we don't have the technology right now, it's stupid because it's stupid. It's not really any different than insisting that submarines would be better if they were shaped exactly like whales and propelled themselves with mechanical fins, or that airplanes should flap their wings like birds.

I don't think anyone here is insisting that a mecha can "out tank" a tank, though.  The point behind it would be that they can do things a tank can't do, while the whole "flapping airplanes" thing doesn't provide any advantage over fixed wing aircraft, as far as I can see.  If it did, and we could hypothetically get them to stay in the air, then sure, why not build a few of them?

[Fordel]

There are very few things, if any, a giant humanoid robot could do that wouldn't be better served by something else. Hence the 'stupid for being stupid' part.

[MahrinSkel]

My 3025 Technical Readout has a picture of a Marauder on the cover.  Who *wouldn't* want to make one of these?

That's a Battlemaster.

Marauders have reverse-joint legs and twin PPC arms.  They're the Macross male Zentradi battlesuit rip-off.  (Incidentally one of my favorites.)

I know it's a freaking Battlemaster.  The significance of "Marauder on the front" is that only the first two printings of the 3025 TR had one, it was one of the designs that got sold to both FASA and to the Japanese anime series, along with the Phoenix, the Wasp, and a few others (including the Battlemaster).



They were not "Ripped Off", the artist sold them once in Japan and once in the US, and without specifying limitations on the license, since the Japanese sale came first they had the winning claim.  Later editions had an Atlas on the front cover, and for a while the disputed designs were not present, eventually they returned with new artwork.

IOW, I bought my freaking 3025 TR in 1988, and it was from one of the first two printings (I believe it's a first edition, but the second printing did not have a separate date and it's far from mint so it doesn't matter).  And I know that mecha are completely impractical as war machines, and if you did build a walking war machine you'd go with something with 4 or 6 legs, not something that can get kneecapped and immobilized with one good shot.  Which is *not* entirely sci-fi, the Army is currently experimenting with automated walking transports to carry supplies and ammo for light infantry units.  Going from that to a weapons platform (manned, remote, or automated) *is* just a matter of engineering.





I just like the look of the Battlemaster better than the Marauder, and it was a humanoid design rather than a digitigrade bug mech like the Marauder or Locust.  I was geeking out when most of you punks were in diapers and Bill Gates was a mere millionaire.

--Dave

[Sophismata]

There are very few things, if any, a giant humanoid robot could do that wouldn't be better served by something else. Hence the 'stupid for being stupid' part.

Precisely. Not to mention the huge pitfalls inherent in large lifeforms.

For example, the larger you are, the greater the impact when you fall over facedown in the dust.

[Ghambit]

There is no way possible for a wheeled/tracked vehicle to carry the amount of armor and weapons equivalent to what a mech carried.  If you read the lore they express that as a viable reason for why they went that route (once they had the power supply to run them).  Fact is, a 'noid type armored "vehicle" is inevitable if they wish to achieve a certain level of armor/armament (escalation is a fact, so do the math).  You just cant put that much weight on tracks or wheels; aside from being ungainly and less maneuverable in tough terrain, the ground wouldnt support it, nor would the tracks/wheels themselves.  And the natural progression for an exosuit soldier is to a larger mech... till you find a happy medium.

Also, how many legs it has is besides the point.  Simple fact is, they're gonna have legs (if they dont fly... or both).  Wheels are for newbs. 

[Sophismata]

There is no way possible for a wheeled/tracked vehicle to carry the amount of armor and weapons equivalent to what a mech carried.
[...]
You just cant put that much weight on tracks or wheels; aside from being ungainly and less maneuverable in tough terrain, the ground wouldnt support it, nor would the tracks/wheels themselves.

What the FUCK?

[Jack9]

It's sensible because you would only need to GROW a biomech,

Physics fail.

There is no way possible for a wheeled/tracked vehicle to carry the amount of armor and weapons equivalent to what a mech carried.

Physics fail.

[Aez]

A good point has just been made in the leg vs no leg debate.  For all the talk about the inherently inferior design of leg, can't you see how this with guns :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpBG-nSRcrQ



has a some advantages over this :