Random nerd thread unrelated to orig. topic. Current: Tanks vs Mechs!

[Lantyssa]

NERDFIGHT!

[WindupAtheist]

On armor: A simple surface area required to be armored versus volume of the object shows that mechs are hugely inefficient in this regard and would be quite outmatched by almost any other design.

That plus half the armor is apparently hanging off the arms in the form of giant nonsensical shields, for some unfathomable reason. I'm still wondering how six fully-geared soldiers, a pilot, an engine, weapons, armor, and ammunition are all supposed to be crammed inside a ten foot mech when half that height is going to be eaten up by legs anyway. You couldn't fit all that shit in there if it were a 10x10x10 foot hollow cube.

But hey, he can name a particular non-mech vehicle that is badly designed, so apparently he wins. Given that every actual vehicle is a non-mech vehicle, the existence of any crappy vehicle anywhere seemingly must validate the idea of throwing it up on legs.

Anyway, I'm done with whats-his-face here unless he somehow comes up with something better than "someone in the army talked about legged vehicles at some point". Anyone who follows this sort of shit knows that all sorts of flamingly idiotic ideas make it at least that far. That thing about DARPA and mind-controlled sharks? I wasn't making that up.

DS9 really was the best Trek of the post-TNG era. I still like the original better though.

[Ard]

Didnt bother to read but replied with a block of text for fun

My example was a 10 foot mech of comparable weight to an m2. Kind of invalidates everything you just said. But in reality the discussion is :

Good god, I'm a programmer and even I understand the physics of why those two things aren't even comparable.  The static forces alone working under the legs is SO much greater than the tracks of a tank it's not even in the same ballpark.  And that's just standing still.  Once you get into movement dynamics, the weight to surface area of the feet alone would do catastrophic things.

[Ratman_tf]

hay guise, i herd draguns arent very reailstik?

[DraconianOne]

hay guise, i herd draguns arent very reailstik?

 

Lies!

[Fordel]

omg shit just went down in here.

Alright guys here im going to drop a bomb so get ready!
Floating orbs with machine guns!!
Beat that! no wheels nothing just a floating fucking orb!
Fuck legs this shits FLOATING IN THE AIR!!!!
They will use Vulcan cannons because word has it vulcan cannons feel no emotions!
pffftt.. haha 
Sorry had to do it..

I think I might need to ignore my own existence for a short while after this.

No wait, LASERS man! Like in Starwars 

[WindupAtheist]

Gryeyes reminds me of this guy.

"I'm sorry Jerry, but perhaps you are not aware of the Nato Reference Mobility Model?"

[TheCastle]

Floating orb would NEVER work its just not feasible in any fashion. Psssst floating orbs what are ya a fucking retard?

LOL
*cracks knuckles* Its perfectly feasible under the context of giant robots. However tanks, those things have been around for awhile only waiting to be replaced by cheap to make floating orbs. 

With lasers

[Montague]

"Meanwhile back in the real universe, you've been comparing a poorly-designed IFV to some kind of anime faggot fever-dream while talking out your asshole. Jesus Christ!"

[WindupAtheist]

Aw shucks! 

[Tmon]

The guys at this forum have periodic 'discussions' about mechs.  Generally the sides line up with the anti-mech guys being the ones who have actually been in the military and operated armored vehicles and the mech proponents having played a lot of video games.  http://208.84.116.223/forums/index.php?showtopic=25827

[Lantyssa]

Yet somehow we got to tanks versus mechs from Star Trek versus Star Wars.  Which one doesn't belong?

Edit: How one gets one out of how I don't know.

[WindupAtheist]

We went from JRPG vs Western RPG, to Star Wars vs Star Trek, to mechs vs tanks. All in an eight page thread that wasn't about any of those things to begin with. This thread is a fucking monument to geekery.

[Hindenburg]

This thread is a fucking monument to geekery humanity.

FIFY.

[TheCastle]

We went from JRPG vs Western RPG, to Star Wars vs Star Trek, to mechs vs tanks. All in an eight page thread that wasn't about any of those things to begin with. This thread is a fucking monument to geekery.

Don't forget floating orbs with lasers. I'm going to stand by my floating orbs as the ultimate future death machines.

[DraconianOne]

We went from JRPG vs Western RPG, to Star Wars vs Star Trek, to mechs vs tanks. All in an eight page thread that wasn't about any of those things to begin with. This thread is a fucking monument to geekery.

This thread makes me realise I'm not actually a geek after all.

I would bow down before your geekdom but, um, I've got sore knees. Yeah - sore knees. 

[gryeyes]

That plus half the armor is apparently hanging off the arms in the form of giant nonsensical shields

Such a silly little guy. 

But hey, he can name a particular non-mech vehicle that is badly designed, so apparently he wins. Given that every actual vehicle is a non-mech vehicle, the existence of any crappy vehicle anywhere seemingly must validate the idea of throwing it up on legs.

Your arguement was based on a comparison to existing vehicles and technology. So naturally i used one of similar dimensions and usage as the point of reference. amazing huh?

Anyway, I'm done with whats-his-face here unless he somehow comes up with something better than

Better than experts in the field of robotic locomotion who currently work in major military vehicle development? Nope sorry got nothing better than that. But in contrast i somehow view this as a better base for ones opinion than a star wars forum.

Good god, I'm a programmer and even I understand the physics of why those two things aren't even comparable.

I dont think you properly read what my comment was in response to. The refutation was mech locomotion being unviable due to its size as a target to the enemy. My response was a mech doesnt have to be 50 feet tall. That arguement doesnt function well to the scale im speaking of. If your debate is that the mech locomotion is in itself inherently inefficient you would be 100% incorrect.

[bhodi]

You're still here? Give it up dude.

[IainC]

But hey, he can name a particular non-mech vehicle that is badly designed, so apparently he wins. Given that every actual vehicle is a non-mech vehicle, the existence of any crappy vehicle anywhere seemingly must validate the idea of throwing it up on legs.

Your arguement was based on a comparison to existing vehicles and technology. So naturally i used one of similar dimensions and usage as the point of reference. amazing huh?

But you picked a design flaw in the IFV to hang your mechs are better than non-mechs that has nothing to do with the method of locomotion, target silhouette or any of the actual issues that are being debated. By the same logic you could say that a potential mech might be made out of cardboard and thus will catch fire easily thus all mechs are fiery deathtraps.

I dont think you properly read what my comment was in response to. The refutation was mech locomotion being unviable due to its size as a target to the enemy. My response was a mech doesnt have to be 50 feet tall. That arguement doesnt function well to the scale im speaking of. If your debate is that the mech locomotion is in itself inherently inefficient you would be 100% incorrect.

Great! So why is there an argument precisely?

[Der Helm]

You are trying to hard.

[tazelbain]

Start with Excession or Player of Games. The more recent ones are longer and more introspective. Still great but there are a lot of base assumptions that you won't get if you haven't read at least a couple of the earlier ones.

I'm not sure if I'd start with Excession (it's one of my favorites, but might make more sense a bit later on).  I read Consider Phlebas first (randomly stumbled over it in a Seattle bookstore a number of years ago) and it seemed like a good starting point -- maybe a bit rough around the edges, but sets up a lot of the Culture universe.  I also loved Use of Weapons, and it seems pretty self-contained.

That's because Phlebas was the first one. I'd say read Phlebas first, follow it up with Use of Weapons and Excession, then Player of Games, the short story in State of the Art and then Look to Windward.

Wow.   The Culture Series is awesome.

[Sophismata]

-post removed-

Screw it, checked the date and the whole thing's irrelevant now.

[Ratman_tf]

-post removed-

Screw it, checked the date and the whole thing's irrelevant now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVwbUljGs3g

End of discussion!  

[Margalis]

It's the ship that made the Kessel
run in less than twelve parsecs!

Fewer.

[Venkman]

That's technically the right way to say it, but not how Han Solo actually did

[Sir T]

That's technically the right way to say it, but not how Han Solo actually did

Are you saying that Solo Broke the laws of Grammer as well?

The cad!

[tmp]

I'd think the benefit of addings legs to the tank is fairly obvious.

You can kick the other tank in the balls with them.

[Sophismata]

That only works if you add balls to the tank, in which case we're back to square one.

[Aez]

Damn you all. I had blissfully missed this thread into a thread.

Here's my two cents anyway :

Modern military development is already proving that you don't really need humans anymore.  Were not there yet but we'll slowly see less and less human pilot and infantry.  It's all going to be  about bombs, rays, bots and medium sized mobile energy sources/mobile carriers.  The next step will probably be a mist of nanobots fighting an other mist of nanobots.  Hell, the first to unlock a functional and self replicating nanobot technology will probably dominate the planet in an instant.

My prediction is that a secret lab will find a way to create a super AI or link a human brain  to a super computer.  The speed of his inventions and researchs will grow exponentially and the AI/cyborg will become God. 

So yeah, maybe a couple of years left for a functional power armor.  Mech will never be usefully. Unless you can make a biologic one (Evangelion).

[tmp]

That only works if you add balls to the tank, in which case we're back to square one.

Well i thought that part is rather obvious -- once you have legs on the tank something has to be put between them. Otherwise people would question why you're making a vehicle that looks like it has a vagina, but is lacking breasts.

[Lantyssa]

Since people already add them to their trucks, we won't have to wait for long.

[Samprimary]

I'd sure like to hear the rationale behind the battletech one.

what have you done.

[Ratman_tf]

Hell, the first to unlock a functional and self replicating nanobot technology will probably dominate the planet in an instant.

We still can't fucking make flying cars. Nanobots indeed!

So yeah, maybe a couple of years left for a functional power armor.  Mech will never be usefully. Unless you can make a biologic one (Evangelion).

Why would an Evangleiion be any more or less useful than a machine mech? Unless you mean the bullshit AT fields, in which case you may as well start factoring in Jedi and dragon cavalry.

[WindupAtheist]

I should point out that while nanobots are cool and all, being that small also makes them very fragile. At any semi-plausible level of technology it should be trivial to kill them en masse with thermal radiation. With their tiny mass they would tend to heat up very quickly. I seem to recall one discussion years ago where it was considered likely that direct sunlight would kill them, though that may have referred specifically to conditions in space.

WUA: Pointing out that all your sci-fi dreams are stupid since 2008. 

[Triforcer]

I should point out that while nanobots are cool and all, being that small also makes them very fragile. At any semi-plausible level of technology it should be trivial to kill them en masse with thermal radiation. With their tiny mass they would tend to heat up very quickly. I seem to recall one discussion years ago where it was considered likely that direct sunlight would kill them, though that may have referred specifically to conditions in space.

WUA: Pointing out that all your sci-fi dreams are stupid since 2008. 

What about a mech made of nanobots?