EU WAR - nail in the coffin ?

[Fordel]

I'm not sure they make a  big enough for that.

[Trippy]

My gripe with this was the fact that I never entered my billing info for this game.  Never got an email about their billing changes.  Didn't intend on playing past the 1 free month so never thought twice about it.  I did however, play DAOC which had my billing info.  They used my billing info from an older subscription to charge me for this game.

I found that pretty underhanded, I had canceled DAOC and never thought they would take that old information and use it to bill me for a completely different title.  I can't comment on the other situation.

Woohoo more fraud!

[IainC]

My gripe with this was the fact that I never entered my billing info for this game.  Never got an email about their billing changes.  Didn't intend on playing past the 1 free month so never thought twice about it.  I did however, play DAOC which had my billing info.  They used my billing info from an older subscription to charge me for this game.

I found that pretty underhanded, I had canceled DAOC and never thought they would take that old information and use it to bill me for a completely different title.  I can't comment on the other situation.

Woohoo more fraud!

The situation described cannot happen.

[Arthur_Parker]

You have two accounts departments?  One has access to DAoC only and one that has access to WAR only?  That's the only way I see it can't have happened, even then absolutely nobody has access to both databases and therefore couldn't have copied the cc details across?

The guy didn't even comment on GOA enabling billing for everyone who cancelled, no wait, "suspended" their accounts (considering there's no cancel option), so if he's lying, he's not being obvious about it.

I'm not sure it's a good idea to respond here about this Iain, I don't know what your position is at GOA but this could get nasty fast if a major news outlet picks up on it.  I'm only bumping the thread with new quotes while it interests me, I'll get bored eventually, don't bill me again please. 

Edit to add, there's a package deal for DAoC & WAR on GOA's website.  I can subscribe to the package deal while logged in on my WAR account, so really, no connection between the two databases?

[tolakram]

Wait a second.

People on message boards can tell lies?  Can this be true?

[IainC]

I'm not sure it's a good idea to respond here about this Iain, I don't know what your position is at GOA but this could get nasty fast if a major news outlet picks up on it.  I'm only bumping the thread with new quotes while it interests me, I'll get bored eventually, don't bill me again please. 

Edit to add, there's a package deal for DAoC & WAR on GOA's website.  I can subscribe to the package deal while logged in on my WAR account, so really, no connection between the two databases?

I originally had an explanation of why it cannot happen but I edited it out because I shouldn't be talking about that sort of thing but I've bolded an important part of your post as a partial explanation.

[khaine]

I'd have to say it's hard to believe either way for sure

Since you have the official GOA rep on WHA saying it was a mistake and should never have happened , while at the same time GOA sending emails saying it official and not a mistake

That kind of miscommunication would lead one to believe there's a lot that even people inside GOA aren't sure about

Either way this is a fiasco

[Arthur_Parker]

Edit, Ok I'm sorta convinced the DAoC guy was mistaken now, so I'm editing all this out, I'm just leaving a single sentence intact below.

I don't know why I'd even consider it upon reflection, hey it's not like you guys would ever want to bill anyone for not playing would you?

[Lantyssa]

Certainly in the UK, there does not seem to be protection against this type of business practice.
GOA is not alone in this kind of conduct. Microsoft is possibly the easiest example to point to - easy to sign up to online services, but impossible to cancel without making a phone call to the United States.  (See One Care) as an example of this type of practice.

The problem isn't so much the difficulty of cancelling, as the fact people had cancelled and then the only notification was an email saying their account had been re-upped.  Sending an e-mail for notification is not going to be sufficient in most territories.  The people did not consent to the charge.  Absence of consent does not equal consent.

Any competant lawyer will have a field day with this.

Even if it can be upheld legally, it's probably a stupid enough decision to cost them a nice percentage of people who won't tolerate what they perceive as fraudulent tactics.

[acelerion]

My gripe with this was the fact that I never entered my billing info for this game.  Never got an email about their billing changes.  Didn't intend on playing past the 1 free month so never thought twice about it.  I did however, play DAOC which had my billing info.  They used my billing info from an older subscription to charge me for this game.

I found that pretty underhanded, I had canceled DAOC and never thought they would take that old information and use it to bill me for a completely different title.  I can't comment on the other situation.

Woohoo more fraud!

The situation described cannot happen.

Mythic did this exact thing to me (of course i play from us). Had a daoc account that I canceled a while back. Bought war and played for free month at which point I was automatically re-uped on the card I used for daoc but had never entered for anything warhammer.

This is obviously possible since they merged account management for daoc/war into one system and apparently still had my cc info on file.

[Just Testing]

The problem isn't so much the difficulty of cancelling, as the fact people had cancelled and then the only notification was an email saying their account had been re-upped.  Sending an e-mail for notification is not going to be sufficient in most territories.  The people did not consent to the charge.  Absence of consent does not equal consent.

Any competant lawyer will have a field day with this.

Even if it can be upheld legally, it's probably a stupid enough decision to cost them a nice percentage of people who won't tolerate what they perceive as fraudulent tactics.

I think that may be part of the problem Lantyssa.  GOA have never offered an option to cancel, not even a phone number.  What they did do was allow users to set up a nonrecurring account.  And then have set it for automatic renewal once set up.  This is the same practice MS use for one-care.  GOA to their credit, did send an email, from a unique no-reply address.  I found it in my spam folder. Buried under 342 other interesting offers, information notices, and heartfelt requests for help in transferring bank funds.  MS don't issue an email, and the small text is buried in the installation agreement, that we all read so avidly.

In Europe, the distance selling regulations only apply to financial products and services.  Country specific laws also apply, but the service is rendered from France. 
Individual consumer rights don't seem very in depth there, from the little I've been able to find out.

WAR has been an expensive experience.

It's a pity there no way to punish the decision makers in GOA without impacting on the peons first.

[eldaec]

Charging a credit card without permission is illegal everywhere. Even in Europe.


Legal arrangements like this are usually much simpler than people imagine.

[Arthur_Parker]

I don't know about the rest of Europe, but I don't think anyone of any importance in the UK will give a shit about a £10 credit card charge.  The fall out from this will be dished out by the players not the courts.  GOA believe they are covered by the vague email, the Eula and the lack of a cancel button, legally they might even be right.

I don't think Mythic is in any position to kick up a real fuss about it (maybe some soothing noises), relations with GOA were strained before, but whatever GOA's many many faults, they can't be blamed for the game failing everywhere.  Mythic will be benefiting from increased paper subscriber numbers, plus a cut of the income so I don't think we'll see Mark Jacobs posting here again, at least not until he's plugging his WAR expansion.

[UnSub]

How badly is GOA hurting to pull a stunt like this?

[Sophismata]

People on message boards can tell lies?  Can this be true?

If you read it on the internet, it must be true.

[eldaec]

I don't know about the rest of Europe, but I don't think anyone of any importance in the UK will give a shit about a £10 credit card charge. 

Really depends how much fuss the players choose to make, there is a point where VISA have to grumble about legalities, and then GOA would have to run scared like a little girl.


But these are GOA customers we are talking about, hardly a group likely to be very discerning when it come to customer service.

[Lantyssa]

But these are GOA customers we are talking about, hardly a group likely to be very discerning when it come to customer service.

You're assuming they all played DAoC.  They might very well have been new to the horrors of GOA with WAR.

I was going to call them former GOA customers, but relized they're at best unwitting customers now.

[Arthur_Parker]

Linky

I'd like to warn each one of you that has his or her credit card set to automatic renewal to CANCEL IT RIGHT AWAY if you do not want to be charged twice in 3 days.

Long story short, i just purchased play time 3 days ago and this morning i get announcement from my bank and GOA that I've been charged for the same amount, yet again.There is absolutely no excuse to what happened and i hope someone in charge is gonna read this.

Here's the screenie of how it looks like.

http://i33.tinypic.com/w7c2z8.jpg


Now, I've contacted them asap, but knowing GOA... The bottom line the money is gone down the drain , and if you don't want to have yourself in this situation, cancel the automatic renewal asap.

Must be a faked screenshot.

[Lantyssa]

Does that count as one or two subscriptions when it comes to touting numbers?

[UnSub]

Does that count as one or two subscriptions when it comes to touting numbers?

You don't need to know that; just know that WAR is doing awesomely well at retaining players. 

[Lantyssa]

"You're in our world system now."