Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull

[stray]

Listen, I'm just saying that some of you need to stop being so dramatic. You can dislike it all you want. I don't mind. I just think that you falsely sold me on how crappy it was. And good or bad, I don't think you would have said much of anything if you weren't so nostalgic. And on that note, Temple of Doom is still the crappiest one. I saw that on my 7th birthday - a day when any kid should enjoy a movie - and I still thought it was pretty lame even back then.

Anyways, gonna get some coffee now myself.

[WindupAtheist]

It's amusing hearing people proclaim "I haven't become the sort of humorless old fuck who would have hated the old Star Wars movies 30 years ago, really I haven't!" while sounding like such humorless old fucks. I'm glad to see I'm not the only person around here who thinks squealing to high nerd heaven about six seconds of CGI gophers in a 2 hour long movie makes one sound like a grumpy old douche.

[Rasix]

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH. Lucas defender to the rescue.   

This movie sucked.  As a result, it has taken a lot of the luster off the old ones. Enough luster that what has been a staple on my Christmas list has been taken off (no one got me the DVD box set in past 3-4 years  ).  The next Indy better be directed by Christopher Nolan and staring the reanimated corpse of Heath Ledger or I won't be seeing it.

[Abagadro]

I just don't understand why it is so hard to believe that certain filmmakers can have films of different quality over the span of 30 years and that Crystal Skull is just an exceptionally lousy one within that spectrum. Has nothing to do with nostalgia or any of the other nonsense.  My wife has nothing invested in any of that crap and was actively angry with how shitty Crystal Skull was since we don't get that many opportunities to get out to the movies.

[stray]

That's a fair enough point Ab -- but I think there's probably as many people as those like your wife who like it on it's own terms too. I mean.. just like any other movie, I guess? :)

The reason why nostalgia comes into play is... because this is F13 ;) Home of 100+ page threads on "WAAAH!! STAR WARS!!"

If it quacks like a duck...

Really though, if you just think it sucks, that's fine. Some people are overstating it's suckiness though, which to me is indicative of the whole nostalgia bullshit.

[HaemishM]

It isn't some sugar coated childhood fantasy; those were better films, and these just suck.

This. Stray, it's fine if you like Crystal Skull. But can you HONESTLY AND WITHOUT EQUIVOCATION say that Skull or Attack of the Clones is a better movie than Raiders or Empire? And if so, where do I get the drugs you been smoking?

[stray]

No, I don't think they're better. In the case of Indy, I just think it's more or less following the same formula. I think it's better than Temple of Doom though. And I think Last Crusade is the best one pulled off actually.. Not Raiders.

Star Wars is a little different. Really quite different plot than the old ones. Indy's always the same plot, but with different settings and gags. The new Star Wars trilogy, on the other hand, was a completely different story than Luke's. And Luke's story has a whole other mythology to it than Anakin's. In fact, Anakin isn't much of a hero at all. So it lacks any of the themes that made the first ones immediately interesting. The new ones also lack a good, crass, funny human character to ground them (Han Solo).

Anyways, it's a still a decent enough story, some hammy parts, but not that badly executed for what it is.. and as far as all of the action and zany characters and shit goes.. It's pretty much the same thing. It's the same Star Wars universe. I can still be entertained by that.

[NowhereMan]

I've got to agree that I think overall Skull is a better film than Temple of Doom. The problem I've got is that Temple's bad points just seem comically bad, I think it's fine to watch if I'm in a shitty B movie mood (or horribly hung over and unable to take anything of quality) but Skull just struck me as bad. It isn't OMGterrible levels but it's a middling film with a enough moments of bad CGI (that's not annoying because it's bad per se but because it's totally unnecessary) to make me not enjoy it overall.

Ep. I-III are better without Jar-Jar (mostly I obviously).

[WindupAtheist]

My wife has nothing invested in any of that crap and was actively angry with how shitty Crystal Skull was since we don't get that many opportunities to get out to the movies.

Not to be too much of a cock, but who cares? Pointing to scattered anecdotal examples of people who manage to dislike the movie even without being sweaty 38 year old male internet nerdragers seems to be the popular thing to do (see Grand Design and his random old lady talking about Star Wars) but the fact remains that the movies in question were well-received by the general public using any criteria you care to look up.

[Ratman_tf]

Ep. I-III are better without Jar-Jar (mostly I obviously).

I never had a problem with Jar Jar. My problem with the prequels is that GL sucked at telling the story. It was told, but lacked the emotional punch of the original trilogy.

A little clever editing, a re-write of some of the more cumbersome dialogue, and a better director, and I think the prequels would have been even better movies than the originals. The basic plot and characters were fine.

And this is relevant to the thread because I think Crystal Skull shows more of that. Lucas has lost his touch, in many ways. He's gone from the guy who changed Hollywood, to another M. Night Shamamalong. Missing as often as he hits.

[Abagadro]

My wife has nothing invested in any of that crap and was actively angry with how shitty Crystal Skull was since we don't get that many opportunities to get out to the movies.

Not to be too much of a cock, but who cares? Pointing to scattered anecdotal examples of people who manage to dislike the movie even without being sweaty 38 year old male internet nerdragers seems to be the popular thing to do (see Grand Design and his random old lady talking about Star Wars) but the fact remains that the movies in question were well-received by the general public using any criteria you care to look up.

Well, for one, you have been positing a combination of strawman and atomistic fallacy, so anecdotal evidence is just as persuasive and a proper counterexample if you want to be technical.

For two, none of them made close to the same amount of money domestically as their earlier incarnations when you adjust for inflation so if you want to get into a "popular=good" argument (which is a stupid argument considering that Transformers and Independence Day made as much as these things, but whatever) you aren't going to win that one either when comparing the previous to the current. The prequels earned roughly half of what the original Star Wars trilogy made domestically (you can't really include international numbers because that isn't apples to apples because of broader distribution these days). Crystal Skull made about half of of Raiders did (despite costing 4 times as much in adjusted dollars to make).  This despite them all having golden pedigrees and established IP.

For three, none of this matters. I watched the thing. It stunk. I have sufficient self-awareness and critical thinking to be able to separate any nostalgia from objective analysis. This was a bad movie for the multiple reasons outlined in painstaking detail in this thread. 

[stray]

Ooh look, another can of worms. 

I thought Transformers was OK too. Don't think it deserved the bitching it got here. Just since we're doing anecdotes, I'm actually quite surprised how many women I know like it. I mean, all of them do. Like a lot.  Kids do too, of course. Basically everyone I know does.. except some guys on the internet who actually still play with Transformers. 

[WindupAtheist]

Honestly, if you didn't like Independence Day then you really do just hate fun.

[Rasix]

Or dislike shitty movies. Plus, quite honestly, it was boring.

Ooh look, another can of worms. 

I thought Transformers was OK too. Don't think it deserved the bitching it got here. Just since we're doing anecdotes, I'm actually quite surprised how many women I know like it. I mean, all of them do. Like a lot.  Kids do too, of course. Basically everyone I know does.. except some guys on the internet who actually still play with Transformers. 

Sweet.  The "you're all dorks" argument.  Always a classy card when played here. 

Edit: Sorry for messing up the facepalm order.  Well, unless you're facepalming me.

[Abagadro]

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[Pennilenko]

Hmm i remember seeing Independance Day in the movie theaters, every person in that movie theater cheered and clapped and hollered at various points in that movie, i remember it as being one of the few movies that i have ever seen that stirred everyone up. Transformers was fun.

[Pennilenko]

Sweet.  The "you're all dorks" argument.  Always a classy card when played here. 

Edit: Sorry for messing up the facepalm order.  Well, unless you're facepalming me.

Don't hate on a good argument.

[stray]

It's a joke y'all. 


But somewhat of a phenomenon too. I am genuinely confused why so many women like it.

[Rasix]

Sweet.  The "you're all dorks" argument.  Always a classy card when played here. 

Edit: Sorry for messing up the facepalm order.  Well, unless you're facepalming me.

Don't hate on a good argument.

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[Rasix]

Hmm i remember seeing Independance Day in the movie theaters, every person in that movie theater cheered and clapped and hollered at various points in that movie, i remember it as being one of the few movies that i have ever seen that stirred everyone up.

It was released on July 4.  They made a big show of acknowledging that at my movie theater I saw it at.  It was a fun movie experience that played very heavily on everyone's mood for the day.

Then I saw it again.  Bored stiff.  Doesn't mean it wasn't fun in that environment, and a movie being bad doesn't necessarily preclude it from being entertaining (did here for me).  Hell, Starship Troopers (ohh yes, I went there) is a god awful movie, but it's one of my favorites and never fails to entertain me. 

[Pennilenko]

Hmm i remember seeing Independance Day in the movie theaters, every person in that movie theater cheered and clapped and hollered at various points in that movie, i remember it as being one of the few movies that i have ever seen that stirred everyone up.

It was released on July 4.  They made a big show of acknowledging that at my movie theater I saw it at.  It was a fun movie experience that played very heavily on everyone's mood for the day.

Then I saw it again.  Bored stiff.  Doesn't mean it wasn't fun in that environment and bad doesn't necessarily preclude something from being entertaining (did here for me).  Hell, Starship Troopers (ohh yes, I went there) is a god awful movie, but it's one of my favorites and never fails to entertain me. 

Seriously, Starship troopers , but you think independance day was bad. You sir are confusing.

[Rasix]

Read closer. Christ.

[Ratman_tf]

It's a joke y'all. 


But somewhat of a phenomenon too. I am genuinely confused why so many women like it.

I'm a Transformers dork, and I liked the live action movie. I think it was successful with "non-fans" because it was accessible. It didn't throw a lot of geek knowledge and references at the audience. It was a straightforward mcguffin hunt with keen visuals, humor and robots smashing shit. They didn't go much beyond "These robots from another planet are looking for the magic cube that makes more robots, they change into cars and jets and there are good guys and bad guys."

I think it could have been better, but I don't think it was a shit movie, and I'm pretty sure that's about as good a Transformers movie as hollywood is capable of giving us.

I reserve my geek hatred towards the LOTR movies myself. 

 

[Pennilenko]

Read closer. Christ.

I did, Im just confused as to how you can still enjoy and be entertained by a god aweful movie in your own words, while still hating something thats arguably not as god aweful. Hehe.

[Slyfeind]

Okay, I'm pretty sure at this point EVERYBODY loved Indy 4, and the only reason people pretend to hate it is because someone said something bad about Lucas after Phantom Menace, and that person came across as real cool, so everybody's pretending to hate Lucas now. And secretly masturbating to their DVDs of Indy 4. And hugging their Jar Jar stuffed animals in their sleep.

SHEESH why do people go to movies anyway?! It ALL sucks. I prefer Shakespeare and Aristophanes myself, or the occasional Dickens or Tolstoy novel. I WIN!!!

[Ironwood]

You're all fucked in the head.

[DraconianOne]

OK, fair enough. I think we just disagree on how much the axis has tilted into the "solely for kid's realm".

I don't think the "It's a kids film" excuse is the get out clause you're looking for. A good kids film is entertaining for both kids and adults. The fact that I didn't like Independence Day or the SW prequels or Transformers or Godzilla or whatever is not, as WUA might assert, because I hate fun.  How do I know this? Because some of my favourite films are Finding Nemo, The Incredibles, Toy Story, Wall-E and just about anything by Pixar. I love them because they're fun films, they're well written, they're entertaining and they're good films. Hell, my 3 year old son loves Cars which is probably the weakest of the Pixar catalogue and I think it's pretty good too.  Because it's fun. Same could be said for just about all the Disney films (although there are some I really dislike.)  

Of course, the real reason I like this films must be something to do with their technical and artistic merit because, apparently, I hate fun.  It can't be because of kiddie nostalgia because I've only ever been an adult when watching them.  

[stray]

That's not what I'm saying there. I was saying in that quote that I don't think it swung solely into the "just for kids realm", but that it has enough to be enjoyed generally. You guys disagree. That's quite fine. I'm just confused on what's supposed to make it any more immature or dumb than the previous movies. It's practically the same thing. Lucas' proclivity to include childish gags like flying refrigerators and cgi gophers does not instantly put it into the kids-slash-retard realm.

[WindupAtheist]

The prequels earned roughly half of what the original Star Wars trilogy made domestically (you can't really include international numbers because that isn't apples to apples because of broader distribution these days). Crystal Skull made about half of of Raiders did (despite costing 4 times as much in adjusted dollars to make).  This despite them all having golden pedigrees and established IP.

Also, while factually correct, this is bunk that ignores the nature of the modern market. For example if Phantom Menace did twice what it actually did domestically, as you apparently think it ought to have, it would have made $860 million. That's more than the entire domestic gross of The Dark Knight and Iron Man combined.

Needless to say, movies just don't do that. Not in today's front-loaded "get it on home video in a few months" market. Once you adjust for inflation, only 3 guys have had movies in the all-time top twenty within the last 25 years. Namely James Cameron (Titanic), Steven Spielberg (Jurassic Park), and George Lucas (Phantom Menace). And Cameron's flick bucked the trend by having a tiny opening weekend but sticking around the box office for the better part of a year.

[Ratman_tf]

You're all fucked in the head.

Oh yeah? Well, double-dumbass on you!

[Ironwood]

If you want relevance, here you go :

I haven't seen Indy 4.  It sounds not too great.  All my family and friends who have seen it said it sucked balls.  My 3 nephews, ranging from 8 to 12 said it sucked balls.  (No, seriously, they actually did.)

I will not be watching it.  I am a full time parent and Director and have seen about 2 movies at the Cinema this year.  I will not be wasting my fucking time. And, frankly, I could never go to the Cinema again after watching The Dark Knight because I doubt it could be topped.

Also, I liked Transformers, all the while realising that it wasn't a cinematic height.  Again, I could pick many, many, many holes in it (Samprimary's Cartoon summed it up for me) but I still liked it.  Optimus stuck a fucking knife in a decepticons head for fucks sake.  That rules.

You people all need to clamber down off the high horses. Really.  Even those cheerleading Lucas and his wattle who are telling people to get off their high horses need to get off their high horses.

Thanks for listening.  I'm drinking tea and I don't like it.

[Merusk]

I'm a Transformers dork, and I liked the live action movie. I think it was successful with "non-fans" because it was accessible. It didn't throw a lot of geek knowledge and references at the audience.

Actually, it did BUT it didn't make the mistake of making them central points, or having prior knowledge of them as essential for understanding the over all film.   The "one shall stand, one shall fall" line being the best example.  Complete ripoff from the animated movie and a wholly geek reference that gave me chills hearing it again, but it worked for the movie as it was used.  The Optimus Prime hand-axe was another good geek toss-in.

[FatuousTwat]

I haven't seen Crystal Skull.

Transformers the movie is shit, Michael Bay sucks.

The end.

[Ratman_tf]

If you want relevance, here you go :

I haven't seen Indy 4.  It sounds not too great.  All my family and friends who have seen it said it sucked balls.  My 3 nephews, ranging from 8 to 12 said it sucked balls.  (No, seriously, they actually did.)

I will not be watching it.  I am a full time parent and Director and have seen about 2 movies at the Cinema this year.  I will not be wasting my fucking time. And, frankly, I could never go to the Cinema again after watching The Dark Knight because I doubt it could be topped.

Also, I liked Transformers, all the while realising that it wasn't a cinematic height.  Again, I could pick many, many, many holes in it (Samprimary's Cartoon summed it up for me) but I still liked it.  Optimus stuck a fucking knife in a decepticons head for fucks sake.  That rules.

You people all need to clamber down off the high horses. Really.  Even those cheerleading Lucas and his wattle who are telling people to get off their high horses need to get off their high horses.

Thanks for listening.  I'm drinking tea and I don't like it.

I just wanted you to type more than one sentence because I think you're a beautiful person, and I cherish your posts. 

[Cyrrex]

On it's own, I would probably have considered Indy 4 an average to below average movie.  Expectations are what primarily lead me to dislike it more strongly, however, because it simply should have been better.  Shia Lepoof as a swordfighting greaser...I mean, fuck.  Blanchett did a horrible, HORRIBLE job with her role, or if it was intentionally meant to be campy, then it was insultingly stupid, to us and to her.  Harrison was actually okay, considering the age factor.  Some of the action scenes were just...damn it.  Too fucking cheesy.

The story, while an obvious departure from previous films, didn't actually bother me at all.  The execution just stank.

Semi-Fake edit:  this coming from someone who didn't outright hate the prequel trilogy.