Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull

[HaemishM]

Finally saw this on DVD.

Nuclear fridge? RETARDED. The Russians were annoying, playing bad Keystone Cop parts the whole time, only with Rocky and Bullwinkle accents instead of Germans. Way way way too much fucking CGI. For a movie like Sky Captains, that had a low budget and was meant to done as a budget experiment, that looks is fine. When you have the budget Spielberg and Lucas did on this, there's no excuse for not filming on a location when the shot calls for the outdoors. Everything filmed on a soundstage LOOKS like it was filmed on a soundstage and it completely throws me out of the movie. It also makes the stunts not as impressive because without some of the danger, the director/write can just come up with the most insane stuff. The Mutt/Cate Blanchett sword fight was the perfect example of that. Most of the set pieces felt like variations on the more famous action sequences from past movies - for instance, the fist fight in the midst of the ants was too directly similar to the fight under the prop plane in Raiders.

Aliens in my Indiana Jones movie? DO NOT WANT.

The movie was horrible, and it certainly wasn't the raping that the South Park guys said it was. But man, it certainly wasn't worth a decade's worth of wait.

[WayAbvPar]

It was just so average and predictable and formulaic. It could have been far more than that.

[NowhereMan]

Meh, the fridge didn't bother me (Temple wasn't any better for stupid shit like that), at least it didn't strike me as un-Indie. The masses of CGI (especially the actually pointless bits like the gophers) that fucking rankled. Also having aliens in itself didn't bother me too much, the fact that the bad guys and good guys both seemed to be aiming for the exact same thing (Both of them just want to put the crystal skull back on? Why the fuck were they fighting over it for an hour and a half?) was annoying. There were Indie moments in this and some bits where I thought they pulled off little jabs at the series but overall it just fell flat, moreso than Temple (at least that was watchably silly). And yeah, bad CGI never looks good and doesn't date in the same way traditional special effects do, they just look bad.

[WindupAtheist]

It was good. You guys just hate fun. Especially Haemish. I mean at least when Schild hates fun it's in a beret-wearing artsy sort of way. Haemish just sounds like a generic angry "nothing is as fun as it was when I was 8 years old" internet guy.

[NowhereMan]

Seriously though, fuck CGI gophers.

[HaemishM]

It was good. You guys just hate fun. Especially Haemish. I mean at least when Schild hates fun it's in a beret-wearing artsy sort of way. Haemish just sounds like a generic angry "nothing is as fun as it was when I was 8 years old" internet guy.

Nothing was as fun as when I was 8 years old, because I was a fucking kid. George Lucas used to know what made good movies, now all he seems to know about is making gigantic CGI set pieces that don't fit with the story. I mean, gophers? SERIOUSLY? Or spider monkeys for that matter? The CGI allows him to do outlandish shit like that stupid sword fighting scene on the two cars, but it's like no one stops to think about whether they SHOULD be doing it. And the answer in that instance would be FUCK NO. Even at the worst, Raiders still had some grounding in reality despite the fantastical elements. It didn't require me to shut off my brain to enjoy it. Skull started with stupid things like the fridge and never got better.

So yes, nothing was as fun when I was 8, but good movies shouldn't require me to devolve in order to enjoy them UNLESS they are meant to be stupid (Harold and Kumar movies). Raiders is ageless - it had plenty for both kids and adults, without talking down to anyone. Hell, even Last Crusade was fun for adults and kids. Skull and Temple? They were trash pulp movies that could have been done with any generic pulp characters.

[Riggswolfe]

It was good. You guys just hate fun. Especially Haemish. I mean at least when Schild hates fun it's in a beret-wearing artsy sort of way. Haemish just sounds like a generic angry "nothing is as fun as it was when I was 8 years old" internet guy.

I love Indiana Jones. I love 3 of the 6 Star Wars movies and enjoy two more of them in a guilty pleasure way and find one somewhat boring. (Attack of the Clones.)

That said, this movie made me lose hope in Steven Spielberg. He's been seduced by the CGI and lost the magic he once had. Here's the secret. They're not getting greedy. They're getting old and it shows. They've lost that youthful idealism and you can see it in their pictures. I think the biggest thing wrong with this movie is that it felt like Spielberg thought he was slumming and needed to get back to his "real" movies. No more E.T. and Raiders for this guy. Munich and shit is what he's all about now.

To sum up: They've both stopped having fun and you can feel it in their movies.

[Slyfeind]

Even at the worst, Raiders still had some grounding in reality despite the fantastical elements. It didn't require me to shut off my brain to enjoy it.

Raiders had the worst fucking ending ever in cinema history. Indiana Jones was protrayed as this adventurer, living by the seat of his pants, wits and education, learning and fighting, a reluctant hero, then it gets to the end and Lucas and Spielberg are like "Well fuck we really painted ourselves into a corner, how's Indy going to get out of this?" He DOESN'T. He closes his fucking eyes and God shoots lasers at the Nazis and THE END. What the holy goddamned fucking hell is that shit, they just pissed all over their entire franchise and it wasn't even two fucking hours old.

[HaemishM]

You are wrong.

[shiznitz]

Seriously though, fuck CGI gophers.

and ants.

[DraconianOne]

Raiders had the worst fucking ending ever in cinema history.

1. You're wrong.
2. You need to watch more films.
3. You're wrong.

Also

You are wrong.

[Grand Design]

Wall of Rant incoming.

Crystal Skull is indefensible.  Simply wanting to like the film is not sufficient.  I went into the film with an open mind, and it was slammed shut about the time that Indiana survives a nuclear blast by hiding in a steel lined refrigerator.  Ok, perhaps that would save him from the blast, but the fridge is then hurled, bouncing end over end for miles.  Indiana would have had every bone in his seventy year old body broken - not to mention the heat associated with a nuclear blast.  Its hard to suspend disbelief for the Big Lie when the little lies make no sense. 

As with everything Lucas has ever made, the dialogue was completely non-sensical, as if written by a child.  The line that did it for me was when Shia Le'whatever says, "God's skull isn't shaped like that!"  Despite the ignorance and, perhaps, innocence of that line, none of the characters are surprised or amazed by the events of the movie.  I don't blame the actors - its probably difficult to properly emote when the director films everything to be overworked with CGI later.

And the CGI was ridiculous.  Lucas has spent his career cultivating special effects.  This is fine - but he uses it as the primary focus of every film instead of using it to augment the story.  Jurassic Park is a very good film because the CGI dinosaurs were believable; they never defy physics or act in a way that we would think dinosaurs couldn't behave.  Crystal Skull is chock-full of unbelievable effects, physics-defying stunts, and situations where rocks, debris and bullets are flying around on screen by the thousands, and never once come into contact with an actor.  Again, its hard to suspend disbelief for the movie's plot when every scene has effects that would require a billion to one odds to occur.  You can do that once per film, not in every scene of every movie you make, George.

Perhaps my biggest complaint with the film is how intentionally cartoonish it was.  The characters are one dimensional.  The dialogue is childish.  Every scene is saturated in colorization.  There is endless and pointless bickering to reveal plot.  In other words, its a hard film to watch because of how distracting the film itself is.  I felt like I was watching a bad Japanese anime instead of a multi-million dollar film.

The final argument that Lucas defenders, and Lucas himself, fall back on is that he makes films for children.  This is entirely true.  But, you cannot use that defense for the Lucas films of old which were entertaining.  I'm not a huge Star Wars fan, but the first two films were immersive and generally well done.  The dialogue still sucked, but the characters and stories were compelling.  There are Oedipal elements to A New Hope and Empire that certainly make them not children's films.  The drinking, sexual tension and gore in Raiders makes it certainly not a child's film.  I've watched them many times since I was a child, and I enjoy them as much now as I did then.  I cannot say the same for Little Mermaid or Problem Child.  Lucas' redefinition of his style was glaringly apparent in the infamous "Han shot first" debacle.  One gets the impression that Lucas is ashamed of his past films because they weren't made for children.  He would gladly redefine them, given the chance - and has, in the case of Star Wars.

Anyway, I think NowhereMan put it best:

Both of them just want to put the crystal skull back on? Why the fuck were they fighting over it for an hour and a half?

There was supposed to be some kind of Cold War Russians vs. Americans technological race going on, but it was completely lost in the film.  I imagine it had a viable story at one point, but having a hard-on for special effects gives Lucas the excuse to ignore having a story.  I'm going to fore go the rants on Ray Winstone and John Hurt.  They got paid.

[Venkman]

Even at the worst, Raiders still had some grounding in reality despite the fantastical elements. It didn't require me to shut off my brain to enjoy it.

Raiders had the worst fucking ending ever in cinema history. Indiana Jones was protrayed as this adventurer, living by the seat of his pants, wits and education, learning and fighting, a reluctant hero, then it gets to the end and Lucas and Spielberg are like "Well fuck we really painted ourselves into a corner, how's Indy going to get out of this?" He DOESN'T. He closes his fucking eyes and God shoots lasers at the Nazis and THE END. What the holy goddamned fucking hell is that shit, they just pissed all over their entire franchise and it wasn't even two fucking hours old.

Err, it's part of the franchise:

God lasers
Runic rock with a flame-based DoT
Cup with an HoT
Aliens with lasers.

I didn't like the Aliens thing but I think they were trapped. Harrison Ford is OLD so they needed to push him into a time period that justified him being on screen. That meant the 50s and what everything thinks of the 50s. So Aliens made more sense than usual anything else (like, it'd have been worse than aliens to have it all be a Russian hoax).

The spider monkeys scene didn't work for me only because I didn't believe Mutt was the type of character that could pull it off so quick. Indy does something it's believable because he's got so much presumed experience at it. Some James Dean wannabe going from class to vine-swinging, not so much. It certainly didn't help that the presentation bit.

As to the general unbelievable, eh, all of the movies had that to a degree, though I will agree the first one was almost entirely plausible.

[WindupAtheist]

The refrigerator escape was dumb, but whatever. Beyond that we have a couple of "look at the animal" takes that comprise about six seconds of footage total, some generic bitching about them there new-fangled CGI effects, and the same "LOL DIALOGUE" crap that critics of the era were lobbing at the original Star Wars/Indy movies 30 years ago when you were too young to give a shit.

It wasn't nearly as good as Raiders. It was at least as good as Temple of Doom. Quit being a fun-hating angry nerd.

[Grand Design]

But it doesn't even pass that test.  It wasn't fun, it was irritating.

[Ironwood]

You realise that you're still defending Star Wars here WUA.  It's got nothing to do with Raiders.  You're still fighting the fucking Clone Wars in your head.

Haven't watched this film.  Not gonna either.  I've had enough of George Fucking Lucas.  The man's senile and dribbly.

But perhaps I just don't enjoy fun.

[stray]

Too many words in this thread.

[Big Gulp]

The spider monkeys scene didn't work for me only because I didn't believe Mutt was the type of character that could pull it off so quick. Indy does something it's believable because he's got so much presumed experience at it. Some James Dean wannabe going from class to vine-swinging, not so much. It certainly didn't help that the presentation bit.

Bullshit.  The spider monkeys/vines thing doesn't work in any context.  Go back to the beginning of Raiders when Indy is running from that Amazon tribe towards his plane.  He grabs a vine and swings on it.  He looks clumsy.  He doesn't land smack dab in the plane's cockpit, instead he just hits the water and starts swimming towards the plane while arrows are shot all around him.  Still fun, still interesting, but actually believable.

Unlike this film, where they have Indy survive a nuke, have Mutt swing on a never ending supply of vines for what seems like miles, command monkeys, and apparently ants can form cheerleader like pyramids to catch sexy, dangling KGB agents.  Oh, and Indy and crew can survive not just one death trip over a waterfall, but three.

This movie is shit.  Indefensible shit.

[Numtini]

We finally watched the film last weekend and we weren't expecting much because of all the hate for it.

I found it enjoyable enough. I'd say it was better than the 2nd one, Temple of PG13 or whatever it was called. If for no other reason than annoying teenager > annoying child.

Nothing comes even close to Raiders which is a truly fine adventure film. If the stunts in the original are more realistic, it may be because every single scene was pulled out of a movie from the 20s to 60s. There's almost nothing really original in the film from Lucas.

[Ingmar]

I do think the literal deus ex machina at the end of Raiders is a black mark, but otherwise I love the movie. I've been putting off seeing this one because I just don't trust Lucas anymore.

[SurfD]

.... and apparently ants can form cheerleader like pyramids to catch sexy, dangling KGB agents.

Watch the discovery channel.  Ants can actually do that.  And the big nasty fucking hungry jungle types (while they don't usually live in underground colonies) are bastards you DON'T want to fuck with.

[HaemishM]

I do think the literal deus ex machina at the end of Raiders is a black mark, but otherwise I love the movie. I've been putting off seeing this one because I just don't trust Lucas anymore.

It's hard to call the end of Raiders a deus ex machina when the whole point of the ark was that it held the unadultered product of God. I mean, what would you expect would happen when you open such a thing? It was basically the Pandora's Box myth given a modern context.

[Grand Design]

I found it enjoyable enough. I'd say it was better than the 2nd one, Temple of PG13 or whatever it was called.

Agreed - almost anything is more tolerable than ToD though.  New rule, every even numbered Indiana Jones is shit.

[Merusk]

.... and apparently ants can form cheerleader like pyramids to catch sexy, dangling KGB agents.

Watch the discovery channel.  Ants can actually do that.  And the big nasty fucking hungry jungle types (while they don't usually live in underground colonies) are bastards you DON'T want to fuck with.

Army Ants.    There was one special on them where a huge (I want to say it was about a mile long and 50 yards across) colony went through a town and the town just closed up.  Ants swarming everywhere over everything as they moved on through their foraging.

[Ingmar]

I do think the literal deus ex machina at the end of Raiders is a black mark, but otherwise I love the movie. I've been putting off seeing this one because I just don't trust Lucas anymore.

It's hard to call the end of Raiders a deus ex machina when the whole point of the ark was that it held the unadultered product of God. I mean, what would you expect would happen when you open such a thing? It was basically the Pandora's Box myth given a modern context.

God from the machine indeed. I find it in fact *very easy* to call it a deus ex machina.  I call it a black mark because it essentially makes everything that happened in the entire movie irrelevant from a plot perspective. I find it unsatisfying. The rest of the movie is basically brilliant so it sticks out just a bit.

[Ingmar]

I found it enjoyable enough. I'd say it was better than the 2nd one, Temple of PG13 or whatever it was called.

Agreed - almost anything is more tolerable than ToD though.  New rule, every even numbered Indiana Jones is shit.

I watched this again recently for the first time in years and I have to say it was actually a lot better than I remembered. I went in thinking 'this is the shitty one' but it has some really nice high points, along with some pretty dumb stuff. The opening sequence, from nightclub to where they get on the plane flight, would be very hard to improve on. After that yeah it gets very uneven.

[Slyfeind]

God from the machine indeed. I find it in fact *very easy* to call it a deus ex machina.  I call it a black mark because it essentially makes everything that happened in the entire movie irrelevant from a plot perspective. I find it unsatisfying. The rest of the movie is basically brilliant so it sticks out just a bit.

Yeah, I think the difference is, in Indy 2-4, Indy had to use his super archaeology knowledge and/or courage and/or ability to survive insane stunts to save the day. In the first movie, he didn't even have to show up.

This doesn't make me hate Raiders, but considering how all of Lucas' movies except American Graffitti have had god-awful shit moments, it makes me wonder why Indy 4 is under such scrutiny.

[Venkman]

You guys are grasping. Once again:

Temple of Doom: (Shiva Stone) Rock with DoT. Indy would have lost his heart if not for the rock magically self-igniting.
Last Crusade: (Cup of Christ, the Holy Grail before Holy Blood, Holy Grail  ) Regenerative cup with HoT (and maybe a rez effect): Indy would have died if he drank from the wrong cup and Henry definitely would have.

Yes, neither had the God lightning and ghosts, but neither were they early 20th century tech.

As to insane stunts to "super archaeology knowledge"? Come on. Watch Raiders again. Scrolls, amulets, staves, knowing to close his eyes, the whole beginning sequence. Jeez, I haven't seen the movie in 15 years probably and it still all comes crashing back.

[Slyfeind]

You guys are grasping. Once again:

Temple of Doom: (Shiva Stone) Rock with DoT.

And by using his knowledge of ancient languages and lore, he made the rock go "fwoomp!" making the guy burn and fall down and get eaten by alligators while Indy's swinging from a bridge. If Indy never went there, the children would have all died in the mines and the Sankara Stones would have been in the hands of evil forever.

Last Crusade: (Cup of Christ, the Holy Grail before Holy Blood, Holy Grail  ) Regenerative cup with HoT (and maybe a rez effect): Indy would have died if he drank from the wrong cup and Henry definitely would have.

This time not only was it his knowledge and cunning, but also his father's lifelong research, resulting in a father-son team up of dodging deadly traps and outsmarting the Nazis. Without Indy and Henry Sr, the Grail would still have remained, and the temple would have still come crashing down. But this time, it was a personal journey, father and son healing wounds with their own personal Holy Grail.

As to insane stunts to "super archaeology knowledge"? Come on. Watch Raiders again. Scrolls, amulets, staves, knowing to close his eyes, the whole beginning sequence. Jeez, I haven't seen the movie in 15 years probably and it still all comes crashing back.

Through the whole movie, sure. I can't deny that it really set up the character of adventure, lore, wits...and that's what makes the ending all the more insulting. The dumbass got himself tied up so he closed his eyes while Lucas and Spielberg dazzled us with special effects. If Indy stayed home and the Nazis opened the ark without Indy there, the Nazis would have died just the same and the ark would have remained lost forever. Was it even a personal journey? Well at least he got drunk and got laid afterwards. Hm, come to think of it, Indy wouldn't have spawned Mutt without the events of Raiders of the Lost Ark. So there we have it! The only reason for Raiders was so Indy could see flying saucers with his son 20 years later! GO INDY! 

[WindupAtheist]

You realise that you're still defending Star Wars here WUA.  It's got nothing to do with Raiders.  You're still fighting the fucking Clone Wars in your head.

Haven't watched this film.  Not gonna either.  I've had enough of George Fucking Lucas.  The man's senile and dribbly.

But perhaps I just don't enjoy fun.

Okay, let me put it this in a more acceptable (dare I say Schildian) sort of way.

George Lucas writes terrible fucking dialogue and always has. He wrote terrible fucking dialogue 30 years ago, and he writes terrible fucking dialogue now. You dipshits are deluding yourselves if you think any of his old movies were any better written than the rectal spew coming out of his characters mouths now.

Seriously, this movie was literally almost called "Indiana Jones and the Saucer Men". Whether you think it's an awful idea or not, Lucas is deliberately schlocky as fuck and always has been. That's the fucking problem with angry butthurt nerds. They don't want to admit that George Lucas was and is basically just a very imaginative schlock peddler with really good special effects. I just happen to have a soft-spot for it.

[HaemishM]

Say all you want about Lucas, but Empire Strikes Back, for all the pulp/genre origins, was cinematic excellence as was Raiders of the Lost Ark. Both those movies are the proof that Lucas and Speilberg had something that they have never equaled. It isn't angry butthurt nerdery so much as comparison with vastly superior films.

[Venkman]

Geek fight!

And by using his knowledge of ancient languages and lore, he made the rock go "fwoomp!" making the guy burn and fall down and get eaten by alligators while Indy's swinging from a bridge. If Indy never went there, the children would have all died in the mines and the Sankara Stones would have been in the hands of evil forever.

And if not for having shown up, the Nazis would have eventually found the ark, opened it, killed everyone on the island, another group from the submarine cavern would have investigated (or another group showed up from the fatherland), and they would have had it. With Indy having found it with all of this knowledge and stuff he could follow it until everyone local died and then got it out of there.

This time not only was it his knowledge and cunning, but also his father's lifelong research, resulting in a father-son team up of dodging deadly traps and outsmarting the Nazis. Without Indy and Henry Sr, the Grail would still have remained, and the temple would have still come crashing down.

Without Indy, the Nazis would have blown through all that bibical stuff with mortars and tommyguns until they found the Knight, killed him and then forced Turkish slaves to drink from all the cups at gunpoint to achieve process of elimination.

The dumbass got himself tied up so he closed his eyes while Lucas and Spielberg dazzled us with special effects.

His archaelogical curiosity got the better of him due to prodding from Belloq.

[Ratman_tf]

Say all you want about Lucas, but Empire Strikes Back, for all the pulp/genre origins, was cinematic excellence as was Raiders of the Lost Ark. Both those movies are the proof that Lucas and Speilberg had something that they have never equaled. It isn't angry butthurt nerdery so much as comparison with vastly superior films.

Why the fuck do those two Star Destroyers in Empire crash into each other? Were they planning on pinning the Falcon between them? Like some kind of bizarre vicegrip manuver? Are all Imperial captains in the habit of smashing their ships into each other? It's not like some fighter dogfight were such a thing could happen. These were ships the size of skyscrapers. How do you NOT SEE THE OTHER GUY COMING AT YOU?!?!?!

That scene... it's just so totally bizarre. 

[Slyfeind]

And if not for having shown up, the Nazis would have eventually found the ark, opened it, killed everyone on the island, another group from the submarine cavern would have investigated (or another group showed up from the fatherland), and they would have had it. With Indy having found it with all of this knowledge and stuff he could follow it until everyone local died and then got it out of there.

God hates the Nazis. No matter what they did, God would have roasted them all with his God Lasers.

Without Indy, the Nazis would have blown through all that bibical stuff with mortars and tommyguns until they found the Knight, killed him and then forced Turkish slaves to drink from all the cups at gunpoint to achieve process of elimination.

Yep, good point. Last Crusade is now ever more awesomer than Raiders. Thanks!

His archaelogical curiosity got the better of him due to prodding from Belloq.

Yeah, that was totally cool. Not only that, but Indy realized the real treasure he was after was Marion, and not the ark at all. Great symbolism and character growth. Unfortunately Lucas and Spielberg felt they had no way out other than "Close your eyes, it's face-melting time!"

[Big Gulp]

Say all you want about Lucas, but Empire Strikes Back, for all the pulp/genre origins, was cinematic excellence as was Raiders of the Lost Ark. Both those movies are the proof that Lucas and Speilberg had something that they have never equaled. It isn't angry butthurt nerdery so much as comparison with vastly superior films.

I can't agree with that on Lucas.  I think the best of Star Wars was Empire, and that was in spite of Lucas, not because of him.

Spielberg, on the other hand, has been responsible for a few of what I call "perfect movies".  Jaws, for one.  Raiders for another.  It's obvious to me that he's less interesting as an older director than he was when he was young.