Experience Enhancements - Phase III

[Morfiend]

Here is PROOF that they don't get it. Mark, I am sorry BUT THIS IS NOT THE ANSWER. Shit. Everyone told you when you did 50% that it wasn't going to really help. Making it 100% is still 100% of shit. Its still shit.

http://herald.warhammeronline.com/warherald/NewsArticle.war?id=395

Greetings!

With the addition of the new region-wide and RvR-wide chat channels we have seen a marked increase in Open RvR participation. In order to encourage this trend even further, we have made an additional adjustment to the experience awarded for killing enemy players in an Open RvR area. Previously we increased this amount by 50%. As of today, that bonus has been raised to 100%. With this change players killed in Open RvR will now be worth double the experience than those killed in scenarios!

As always, we will continue to monitor your feedback and work on ways to improve the RvR experience. More changes are coming, so be sure to stay tuned to the Warhammer Online Herald and monthly newsletter for the latest updates.

See you on the battlefield!

[schild]

lol

[Goreschach]

Part IV is a no-scenario server.

[squirrel]

Well I agree with you. But I'm spending time there and while it's slower than scenarios it's funner too. So any bump is good, but this better be the tip of an iceberg.

[Paelos]

Where's the love for quest xp, huh? That's where the bump is needed. Not in RvR.

[Kirth]

this was almost 1 year ago:

http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/home/flash/2007-11_pp-GameSystemChanges.html

This month, Associate Producer Josh Drescher unveils two major updates to important areas of the game: the Career System and RvR Combat. Based on your feedback, we are adding some exciting new enhancements to the career system that will allow players to create more individual and specialized characters. We are also adding new features to Open World RvR to make it more meaningful and exciting. Watch the video for the details!

1 Year they have been trying to "fix" open world rvr....

fuck it I'm going back to WoW.

[ashrik]

Well,

I'd say it's at least a step closer to what I'd like to see than not.

Of course PVE xp is still sucky while the gear is great.

But this seems like a simple math/variable change (don't yell, I don't know jack about programming), as opposed to a much larger and sweeping mechanic change.

So of course it'd come first.

[Zzulo]

first of all, they are taking steps towards what we want, even if they are babysteps. They are not fundamentally changing anything big yet which is understandable, so don't go all  on this so fast.

This month, Associate Producer Josh Drescher unveils two major updates to important areas of the game: the Career System and RvR Combat. Based on your feedback, we are adding some exciting new enhancements to the career system that will allow players to create more individual and specialized characters. We are also adding new features to Open World RvR to make it more meaningful and exciting. Watch the video for the details!

1 Year they have been trying to "fix" open world rvr....

Well keep warfare was not even part of the original design for WAR. Originally, the game only had some BO's and scenarios. They changed this after hard feedback from testers and fans. Also the game has only been in development for what, 3 years? No wonder the RvR is so rugged still, if they didn't even start out developing the RvR like it is today from the beginning of a 3 year development cycle

It's a shame really

[RUiN 427]

you know what made me feel like i had to go to rvr and help take keeps... the fact that that was the only way to get to the renown gear merchants... but then we got into the guild hall and i didn't have to do that anymore

[Paelos]

you know what made me feel like i had to go to rvr and help take keeps... the fact that that was the only way to get to the renown gear merchants... but then we got into the guild hall and i didn't have to do that anymore

I liked the idea of taking keeps, but when I was doing it the slideshow was unbearable.

[Morfiend]

first of all, they are taking steps towards what we want, even if they are babysteps. They are not fundamentally changing anything big yet which is understandable, so don't go all  on this so fast.

[/quote]

They don't have the time for these little baby steps. People are dropping like flies. Look at the server populations. They are running very short on time to get people to stick. I know a shitload of people from all the guilds are quitting also. Hell, two days ago the biggest guild on my server couldnt even fill a warband in prime time.

I want this game to do well so badly, but if they keep with the baby steps its going to be to late for the majority. There is a 1500lbs Gorilla knocking at their door, and they have around 3 weeks.

[Paelos]

first of all, they are taking steps towards what we want, even if they are babysteps. They are not fundamentally changing anything big yet which is understandable, so don't go all  on this so fast.

They don't have the time for these little baby steps. People are dropping like flies. Look at the server populations. They are running very short on time to get people to stick. I know a shitload of people from all the guilds are quitting also. Hell, two days ago the biggest guild on my server couldnt even fill a warband in prime time.

I want this game to do well so badly, but if they keep with the baby steps its going to be to late for the majority. There is a 1500lbs Gorilla knocking at their door, and they have around 3 weeks.

I think that's extreme. I agree that they will lose people, but I don't think the game is going to collapse because of the current flaws. I think it has too much backing, fan support, and generally disgruntled pvp players from other games that they won't leave. I don't know what their break-even point is, but I'm sure they are well above it in terms of accounts. In the meantime, they need to fix things and stay vocal. Also, they can't play panic mode. It's simply not a viable solution when you run a business.

The truth is, even the players don't know how to fix RvR combat. In the next month though, I expect to see a release about knocking down the xp grind in T3-4.

[BitWarrior]

Providing a sweeping overhaul to RvR in a matter of a few days/weeks would do more harm than good. Many people have a vague notion of what tuneups the current implementation requires (global map-based RvR notification, dramatic re-itemization, influence rewards, improved client performance, class balance fixes, faction population balance mechanics), and it's totally unrealistic to believe such an implementation can be done anything remotely close to "quick".

That being said, Mythic is doing themselves a grave disservice by:

a) Calling these tiny little updates "Phase I, II or III". They're not "phases" at all, just minor tweaks at best. It's like saying you've completely remodeled your house, when all you did was paint a room.
b) Not consolidating in some place what the "new" RvR will look like in an attempt to hang on to players who are thinking of jumping ship

Mythic is turning out to be extremely unique in its presentation. On one hand, Mark hammers forums with incredibly personal and at times in-depth information. On the other hand, they reveal absolutely nothing regarding their plans on their own web site to the average player.

[d4rkj3di]

PvE XP still shitty, ORvR still has no tangible rewards or reason to take part. Tor Anroc, here I come!

[Morfiend]

I think that's extreme. I agree that they will lose people, but I don't think the game is going to collapse because of the current flaws.

I don't think its going to collapse, but as some one else posted, I think its the difference in 1mil subs vs 250k subs.

Also, like I said in a different thread. Make taking a keep worth a whole lot more exp, that will get people out RVRing. Make a keep capture worth like 25 or 30k exp. That will get people out there.

[Kail]

Also, like I said in a different thread. Make taking a keep worth a whole lot more exp, that will get people out RVRing. Make a keep capture worth like 25 or 30k exp. That will get people out there.

I wouldn't mind seeing some XP for defending a keep, too.  That's the big problem I'm running into, is that I'm playing "hunt the zerg".  I get a message that says "The Lord of Fangbreaka Keep is under attack!!!!!!" and I ask how big the attacking force is.  Nobody knows, because nobody is there, because it's pointless to hang around a keep if there's not a lot of elves to pour oil on.  So I have to hoof it all the way back there to find out that it's one guy who's gone by the time I show up.

Seems to me that providing a trickle of XP over time to anyone just for being in a keep would both be a good reward for casual players and a nice incentive to take and hold keeps.

[Paelos]

Also, like I said in a different thread. Make taking a keep worth a whole lot more exp, that will get people out RVRing. Make a keep capture worth like 25 or 30k exp. That will get people out there.

I wouldn't mind seeing some XP for defending a keep, too.  That's the big problem I'm running into, is that I'm playing "hunt the zerg".  I get a message that says "The Lord of Fangbreaka Keep is under attack!!!!!!" and I ask how big the attacking force is.  Nobody knows, because nobody is there, because it's pointless to hang around a keep if there's not a lot of elves to pour oil on.  So I have to hoof it all the way back there to find out that it's one guy who's gone by the time I show up.

Seems to me that providing a trickle of XP over time to anyone just for being in a keep would both be a good reward for casual players and a nice incentive to take and hold keeps.

I agree that both sides should get xp for their efforts. I think there should be a substantial 20k+ xp reward for winning a keep taking or defense. I also think that there should be an "initiator" function that makes a keep takable, and you have an X amount of time to do it. That way you get a defined time for a keep, and then a lockout period of 15 minutes until the next attack.

[Nebu]

I agree that both sides should get xp for their efforts. I think there should be a substantial 20k+ xp reward for winning a keep taking or defense. I also think that there should be an "initiator" function that makes a keep takable, and you have an X amount of time to do it. That way you get a defined time for a keep, and then a lockout period of 15 minutes until the next attack.

Assignments of this xp would be a pain.  When do people become eligible?  What tracks contributions during a keep take?  Etc.  In DAOC rps were awarded for keep takes and often you could just fly by a keep as it was changing hands to get the reward.  This had the effect of diluting the reward for those that did the work.  Perhaps incentives like in PQ's would be best... though those seem to suffer similar fates as well.

[Lantyssa]

Modified by participation factors so you don't get leeches, have a simple coefficient based on amount of defense time present.  The longer you're around for the battle, the more xp you get.

[Nebu]

Modified by participation factors so you don't get leeches, have a simple coefficient based on amount of defense time present.  The longer you're around for the battle, the more xp you get.

People will go LD due to lag (and large numbers of players involved and seige engine graphics and...) and be pissed when they come back = CSR issues.   It's a bad situation waiting to happen.

[Kirth]

I agree that both sides should get xp for their efforts. I think there should be a substantial 20k+ xp reward for winning a keep taking or defense. I also think that there should be an "initiator" function that makes a keep takable, and you have an X amount of time to do it. That way you get a defined time for a keep, and then a lockout period of 15 minutes until the next attack.

This!


Keep defense is fun for about the first 20-30 minutes of it then you realize your just delaying the inevitable.

And fuck serpents passage, battle of praag is 1000 times better and it never pops.

[belabor]

And fuck serpents passage, battle of praag is 1000 times better and it never pops.

Does Battle for Praag just require more players?  I have had it queued for weeks and I've never seen it pop.

[Sjofn]

you know what made me feel like i had to go to rvr and help take keeps... the fact that that was the only way to get to the renown gear merchants... but then we got into the guild hall and i didn't have to do that anymore

I liked the idea of taking keeps, but when I was doing it the slideshow was unbearable.

This was kinda my problem too. If I was playing a healer it wouldn't be so bad for me, I suspect, but when I was there as a tank it was miserable.

[Kirth]

And fuck serpents passage, battle of praag is 1000 times better and it never pops.

Does Battle for Praag just require more players?  I have had it queued for weeks and I've never seen it pop.

Maybe? I just remember in beta it was popping all the time.

[Draegan]

All you need to do is increase experience and make the gear sold in keeps not suck.  All done.

[Paelos]

I agree that both sides should get xp for their efforts. I think there should be a substantial 20k+ xp reward for winning a keep taking or defense. I also think that there should be an "initiator" function that makes a keep takable, and you have an X amount of time to do it. That way you get a defined time for a keep, and then a lockout period of 15 minutes until the next attack.

Assignments of this xp would be a pain.  When do people become eligible?  What tracks contributions during a keep take?  Etc.  In DAOC rps were awarded for keep takes and often you could just fly by a keep as it was changing hands to get the reward.  This had the effect of diluting the reward for those that did the work.  Perhaps incentives like in PQ's would be best... though those seem to suffer similar fates as well.

I believe any system can be manipulated. Still, I think basing keep taking off the PQ system is not a bad idea. There are timers. There are rewards on participants. There is a common goal. THIS IS NOT BAD.

[squirrel]

Providing a sweeping overhaul to RvR in a matter of a few days/weeks would do more harm than good. Many people have a vague notion of what tuneups the current implementation requires (global map-based RvR notification, dramatic re-itemization, influence rewards, improved client performance, class balance fixes, faction population balance mechanics), and it's totally unrealistic to believe such an implementation can be done anything remotely close to "quick".

New fish speaks the truth - there's really not much other than changing the +50% buff to 100% that can be done in a few days. We all know what we want or what is needed - hell epic threads are birthed on basic ideas - but to actually solve these issues ingame will take lots of time. Minor steps such as XP buffs are welcome in the meantime, but we need to know that there is a game coming at the end.

[Kageru]

The initiator for a siege should be something like a "Sargeant of X" who patrols the radius of the fortress. He'd have enough power / companions that you'd need a reasonably number of people to defeat him. He's effectively a check of whether it's a serious challenge on the keep. The realm alarm is tied to his death. He doesn't drop any loot (to avoid farming). He has a long respawn and when he does everyone who participated in the battle gets rewarded based on the extent of their participation. Killing him again, which the attackers will need to do in order to protect their rear, starts a new reward period.

The door takes a while to chop down and generates waves of NPC defenders based on the number of attackers versus the number of defenders. This is the gather time for potential PC defenders. If you need a PvE challenge then the keep champion is in the courtyard and drops loot. He's not in the castle itself so you don't screw over ranged classes. Ideally he's a sufficient challenge that you must have dominance over the keep to take him down. His role is the honeypot.

The lord of the castle is not a PvE challenge but is deep in the keep itself giving the maximum advantage to the PC defenders. He drops loot and his defeat means the castle is lost (visual change, no more defenders). The essence is now it is up to the PC defenders but they have the defensive advantage and possible NPC guard assistance to limit zerging.

Does it work like this already?

[balobalo]

Hi

This is the right direction. There are more oRvR in my server today, but another problem arises.

The diminishing of both exp and rp is too harsh. People are not worth killing after about 15min of skirmishing, and the warbands of both side would slowly dissolve.

Completely removing the diminish would be a stupid idea as exploiters will use it for sure.

I suggest a more forgiving diminish system.

-no diminish until 3rd time killing?
-the diminish restarts after 10min?
etc~

Thanks

[Sandler311]

I wouldn't mind PQs at keeps if you own them, that can reward loot. Something like for avelorn you have to throw babies into the altar there, before time runs out. Well something better but yes, PQ's at keeps.

[Arthur_Parker]

I wouldn't mind PQs at keeps if you own them, that can reward loot. Something like for avelorn you have to throw babies into the altar there, before time runs out. Well something better but yes, PQ's at keeps.

As everybody seems to be saying, I'd like to see 50k or 75k exp for capturing a keep.  Only thing is the players will just trade keeps and avoid each other, so for defending you also need something attractive, like maybe the keep lord giving repeatable and very rewarding quests (kill player/deliver item to guard patrol etc).

PQ's at keeps are an interesting idea, it's a pity they can't spawn a third faction to take control of a keep with a third faction hero in charge, a few gold bags as a reward in addition to the increased exp for completing the PQ.  Give both realms a status message to say the Skaven or whoever have captured fort "blah" under clan leader Smeghead or something.  Maybe redesign a couple of T4 keeps to have two external and two internal doors so it becomes a race to see who gets inside first.  Later stages of the PQ after defeating the keep lord is to keep the other side out for a certain time.

[Kail]

Here is PROOF that they don't get it. Mark, I am sorry BUT THIS IS NOT THE ANSWER. Shit. Everyone told you when you did 50% that it wasn't going to really help. Making it 100% is still 100% of shit. Its still shit.

Yeeeeeah, this is really, really true.  Did some keep warfare today in T2.  About two or three hours worth.  Netted me about fifteen percent of the XP I'd need to hit 16.  And this was two hours of more or less constant fighting between two warbands.  Two hours of siege weapons and pushes and flanking and counterattacking.  Couldn't possibly get much better rate of XP, I'd say (and it's by far the most productive night I've ever seen).  Fifteen percent.  Assuming that the rate of XP gain stays constant (and it doesn't, obviously, it gets worse the higher you go) it would take about seventy hours /played to get from fifteen to twenty.

[tolakram]

We tried to take a keep last night, had a full warband on Ironfist.  We failed, but I had fun and really didn't think about the XP I was making.  /shrug

[khaine]

We tried to take a keep last night, had a full warband on Ironfist.  We failed, but I had fun and really didn't think about the XP I was making.  /shrug

I was like this in Tier 2/ early Tier 3 and there was plenty of others doing it also , but then suddenly everyone figured out just how much more xps/rp/gold you got from doing nothing but scenarios

So then it changed to me and a few others standing around hoping to find enough people to have a keep battle , we couldn't stir up trouble for the enemy to show up in numbers nor field a decent keep taking team , because others who enjoyed the Open RvR more themselves had gone through the experience of waiting an hour or two hoping to stir up a large battle

Currently you have to be extremely lucky to find a fun and large open rvr battle , despite "WAR is everywhere" slogan

So now I realize I'm part of the problem and perpetuating it by going along with the scenario 24/7 lemmings , but it's either that or stand around for two hours trying to stir up battles ,

[waylander]

Age of Conan lost over half its initial subscribers within its first 90 days, and the things we are seeing here in War are looking almost exactly the same. So I sort of agree with the poster who says the next 3-4 weeks are critical. After that point, servers will be so low on population that transfers or clustering will be mandatory for those players to be able to do anything PVP related if things don't improve. As I've said before, Developers who aren't offering a revolutionary type product don't have the benefit of customer patience.  In the old days you had about a  year, but in today's market you've got 60-90 days to live up to expectations or see a massive subscriber drop.

100% exp for ORVR sounds good, but not when you spend 40 minutes looking for someone and you are sharing that exp across a party/warband. 100% of 0 is still 0, and that's where ORVR is right now in T4. Organized guilds are doing a lot of the legwork to take the keeps, and then some scrub wanders in just to take 1st place and the purple drop while contributing nothing.

We've all laid out the issues for Mythic to see. If they want to have 50-250k subscribers then they need to keep giving us half fixes like this one.  If they want to be sitting here with a growing game, they need to radically and quickly redesign the game in T3/4.  Folks aren't going to wait 6 months, and if this game doesn't keep 500k subscribers then its going to lose PR buzz and be relgated to the status of games like COH/COV, Lotro, etc.  In a month WotlK will eat their lunch because at least in WoW you can PVE/PVP without feeling like your server is a ghost town.  

Even AOC didn't feel this empty this soon after release. It took until about the 60 day mark for that game to take a permanent nosedive.