Experience Enhancements - Phase III

[khaine]

I wonder if Mythic would dare accept the egg on the face and do server merges/consolidation 2-3 months after launch ? With the remarks I've seen MJ make about judging a game by "is it still opening new servers 6 months out", and so on , it seems this would be a hard pill to swallow for them.

[Ossigor]

I wonder if Mythic would dare accept the egg on the face and do server merges/consolidation 2-3 months after launch ? With the remarks I've seen MJ make about judging a game by "is it still opening new servers 6 months out", and so on , it seems this would be a hard pill to swallow for them.

It would cure a lot of problems. It would also bring bad press (which is retarded). Either way, the same problems will show up in 6+months from now when newbies are logging in saying "Where is the RVR? Wheres everyone doing PQs? They are too hard solo..." when everyone is in T4 and not motivated to make alts with the (current) leveling speed and nature of renown ranks.

As stated in earlier replies, Mythic is taking small steps towards a large problem as MJ has said. This isn't the final solution. Its up in the air: will they give in and make sweeping changes before WotLK arrives? They might have to, to succeed... Time will tell.

I bet we'll see the RvR Lake influence bar in before the 2nd week in November.

[Takhomasac]

I wouldn't mind PQs at keeps if you own them, that can reward loot. Something like for avelorn you have to throw babies into the altar there, before time runs out. Well something better but yes, PQ's at keeps.

That’s not a terrible idea.  My concern would be that, unless the PQ involved killing invaders, you’re splitting your defense resources.  People may stop paying attention to the invading force.

Alternatively, maybe a keep could radiate a certain buff for defenders:
1) The duration of the buff is 15 minutes. 
2) The buff is only active when the defender is in combat.
3) If the buff runs for the full duration, then they are granted X amount of experience and Y amount of renown.

[Nevermore]

In a month WotlK will eat their lunch drink their milkshake because at least in WoW you can PVE/PVP without feeling like your server is a ghost town.  

Even AOC didn't feel this empty this soon after release. It took until about the 60 day mark for that game to take a permanent nosedive.

I was stunned when I saw someone post that WAR has 55 servers.  What, is there like 300-400 people on each one?  That's insane.

[McSteak]

In a month WotlK will eat their lunch drink their milkshake because at least in WoW you can PVE/PVP without feeling like your server is a ghost town.  

Even AOC didn't feel this empty this soon after release. It took until about the 60 day mark for that game to take a permanent nosedive.

I was stunned when I saw someone post that WAR has 55 servers.  What, is there like 300-400 people on each one?  That's insane.

I felt the same way.. Seems like we things would be a lot better if that number was dropped to something around 15-20

[Slayerik]

If they grew a pair, consolidated some servers, and Mark Jacobs responded to any random new guy here I would instantly sub. That would be worth at least a month of entertainment. And I'm just talking about the board hysteria.

Actually, the only thing holding me back from trying this game is I missed the initial rush - and I know it will be asstastic until I catch up. Server merges are OK, spin it correctly and that you give a shit about your customers and you can turn bad press into good press. Either way, do it now before people claim that everyone went back to WoW...causing the merges. 

[Mrbloodworth]

Isn't that what the free transfers are for?

[schild]

Isn't that what the free transfers are for?

Nope, and Slayerik is absolutely right, merge now or merge later - one you can spin, the other you can't.

[Kamen]

Agreed that server mergers later cannot be spun.

Please to explain how you can spin server mergers immediately after launch into a "we love you" good thing.  Server merger = we don't have enough players.

I say they won't do it - still clinging to the hope that they turn this around.

[Nebu]

Server merger: Hey folks, in the spirit of increasing participation in both PQ's and the NEW AND IMPROVED RvR experience (tm), we've consolidated the following servers.

Enjoy!

[rattran]

"We've increased max server capacity, thus cutting down the need for so many different servers. Higher population density will make WAR even more epic!"
Or
"WotLK beat us up and stole our lunch money. Closing empty servers to save money for meth."

[schild]

They won't do it. But the only spin necessary would be "At launch we placed the cap on servers way too low and ended up putting more servers in when we should've been increasing the cap and tech behind the servers. Our mistake, we're fixing it. Enjoy the WAR." Or something. Point being, it's their fuckup, 2 weeks into launch it certainly wasn't the lack of players calling for such a thing.

[lac]

If they grew a pair, consolidated some servers, and Mark Jacobs responded to any random new guy here I would instantly sub. That would be worth at least a month of entertainment. And I'm just talking about the board hysteria.

Actually, the only thing holding me back from trying this game is I missed the initial rush - and I know it will be asstastic until I catch up. Server merges are OK, spin it correctly and that you give a shit about your customers and you can turn bad press into good press. Either way, do it now before people claim that everyone went back to WoW...causing the merges. 

I started two weeks late on a recommended, freshly added server. It's absolutely deserted aside from tier one, which could be described as sparsely populated
T2 and T3 have a scenario pop every hour or so (for order). I've seen exactly one chaos guy in a lake while we took down 3 keeps on sunday afternoon.
If they don't merge my server soon it will just die.

[Slayerik]

Due to population imbalances on server of our lower populated servers, our development team thought that best way to provide all the types of great PVP that our game has been designed around was to do some consolidation of servers.

Using data farmed from our uber data farmer program, we will first be combining servers that are low on Order population, with those that a high on Destro population.  This will reduce queue times for all involved, and really liven up the world PVP!

As always, we are listening to our customer's feedback. Server migrations in the past have been frowned upon as a sign of failure or defeat. We know that players want massive war, so that's what we wanted to provide regardless of any pre-conceived notions.

 IDK, something like that anyway.

[Kamen]

They won't do it. But the only spin necessary would be "At launch we placed the cap on servers way too low and ended up putting more servers in when we should've been increasing the cap and tech behind the servers. Our mistake, we're fixing it. Enjoy the WAR." Or something. Point being, it's their fuckup, 2 weeks into launch it certainly wasn't the lack of players calling for such a thing.

Admit error and correct the problem?  Are you fucking insane?

Resolved: There will be no server mergers until it doesn't matter.

[Nija]

If they don't merge my server soon it will just die.

Leave that server. What's keeping you there? I'm currently on my 3rd server, due to just population problems.

I've really given Mythic 3x more attention than I should have.

I have a level 21 guy and a level 14 guy on Hochland. Mothballed.

I have a level 32 guy and a level 15 guy on Praag. Mothballed.

Now I've got two tier 1 guys on Dark Crag. Active.

It's fucking stupid that I have to do this but the only way this stupid fucking game works is when you have lots of people.

[schild]

You're 100% wrong. If you're gonna spin it, you need to spin it as if the dev team made a mistake and that the players were right. This is all about the players. And the dev team DID make a mistake. They need to take the high road, admit fully that they didn't make the server tech awesome enough and that they are introducing ways to increase the possible amount of War in their Warhammer. Open up some totally new, better servers (surely they don't have the best shit available and surely getting shit that would support 7500-10k players at once costs less than running 2-3 empty servers with people quitting), and dump 2-3 servers onto these new ones. Sure, dump ones that would about equal out in server pops, but do it nonetheless.

This combined with massive exp gains and decreases in level requirements for 1-40 will go an incredible way toward player retention. Also, I think it IS about time someone snapped their fingers and reitemized the game.

Admit error and correct the problem?  Are you fucking insane?

You're right. They should just blame the players or Blizzard. That'll help.

Resolved: There will be no server mergers until it doesn't matter.

Everyone here understands that that is the likely result - unfortunately, it's bullshit and Mark fucking knows it.

[Kamen]

I forgot the green text.

Yeah, they should admit they fucked up, spin it, and  do some server merging while announcing all kinds of other improvements.

What's sad is that we're all cynical enough to be in agreement that they won't.

[Slayerik]

Nope, and Slayerik is absolutely right, merge now or merge later - one you can spin, the other you can't.

You're 100% wrong.

Battin' .500 baby!

For the record, I do think your spin is better.

[Ossigor]

All this talk about spinning got me in the mood to visit meatspin.

[Righ]

We've all laid out the issues for Mythic to see.

In thirty-five threads all saying the same things over and over again. We should probably start another in the hopes that they see it.

[zubey]

For what it's worth, Tier3 ORvR was hopping last night on Red Eye Mountain.

[Nebu]

In thirty-five threads all saying the same things over and over again. We should probably start another in the hopes that they see it.

I still don't know why this chafes your hide so much.  We've been rehashing pretty much the same old MMO mechanics issues for years.  That hasn't really changed anything either. 

Think of it as a nice distraction from work. 

[McSteak]

In thirty-five threads all saying the same things over and over again. We should probably start another in the hopes that they see it.

Think of it as a nice distraction from work. 

crap.. I knew I was supposed to be doing something today

[Goreschach]

Somehow, I doubt we'll be seeing server mergers within the next three months.

[Morfiend]

Providing a sweeping overhaul to RvR in a matter of a few days/weeks would do more harm than good. Many people have a vague notion of what tuneups the current implementation requires (global map-based RvR notification, dramatic re-itemization, influence rewards, improved client performance, class balance fixes, faction population balance mechanics), and it's totally unrealistic to believe such an implementation can be done anything remotely close to "quick".

New fish speaks the truth - there's really not much other than changing the +50% buff to 100% that can be done in a few days. We all know what we want or what is needed - hell epic threads are birthed on basic ideas - but to actually solve these issues ingame will take lots of time. Minor steps such as XP buffs are welcome in the meantime, but we need to know that there is a game coming at the end.

This is why I said they should increase the amount of EXP for taking a keep. I understand they can't do sweeping changes or even do something like adding defense bonuses with out a decent amount of work. But I think it Phase 1 of the exp enhancements they added EXP to keep captures. Remember the stupid down scaling exp bonus? The worthless one? I believe it was figured out to be 2-3k for a keep capture in t3 at level 25. Scaling down to 1.2k exp at level 31. First, the downscaling is stupid. The increased amount of EXP needed is already a downscale.

An immediate bandaid fix would be to pump this to 25-30k exp and at least that would get people out there trying to capture keeps a lot more.

[Righ]

I still don't know why this chafes your hide so much.

Its probably only because I'm playing the game and until a few weeks ago, this was a fairly good place to see the aggregation of useful tidbits from around the net which related to it. Now there's a group of people who are saying the same thing so frequently that the incursions of blithering idiots from WHA are actually a refreshing break from the monotony. Its like watching WUA post about how wonderful UO is under 20 different pen names.

[BitWarrior]

An immediate bandaid fix would be to pump this to 25-30k exp and at least that would get people out there trying to capture keeps a lot more.

Yes and no, it would certainly introduce new and exciting exploits. To relate to what I know, as a web developer whenever I develop a web app I always think, "How could I possibly exploit this?" Think like the enemy, that kind of thing.

By simply implementing a massive XP reward for taking a Keep, defending a Keep becomes even less worthwhile. A quick exploit would be to simply work out a deal between a guild on the opposite side to switch back Keeps back and fourth.

Secondly, you enter a numbers problem. 25-30k per each person? If so, what constitutes participation? Being in the area? Perhaps getting on the threat list of the Keep Lord? What happens if you were downstairs defending against incoming players, do you not get credit? If you do get credit for just "being in the area", could you not simply stand around and do nothing and reap tremendous rewards?

If it's 25-30k spread amongst everyone, wouldn't people begin to dislike it when "other" people beyond their capable Warband decide to join the fun? Doesn't that suddenly reward smaller scale encounters as opposed to larger scale ones?

And finally, if you attempt to balance the "only offensive action begets XP rewards" situation with defenders getting XP as well, what defines when something is successfully "defended"? Does everyone have to leave the area? For how long? What happens if you defend against 5 people as opposed to 25 people? How do the rewards scale? What happens if the offensive Warband is just regrouping? How do you judge when they're really "finished" attacking?

Obviously there are solutions to these problems, I can think of many, however doing a quick fix like you suggested would introduce more problems than it would solve. This is why I wish Mythic would create a blog a la teamfortress.com to display what they are working on and what considerations they need to take into account. I think it would build respect at a critical time.

[Mrbloodworth]

How about a bucket XP, that gets dumped on the winning side, its filled by activities relating to keep taking.

[BitWarrior]

How about a bucket XP, that gets dumped on the winning side, its filled by activities relating to keep taking.

That's potentially a great solution, but of course it requires design, programming, art and testing. The problem isn't really a lack of solutions to the current problems, its a lack of communication regarding what solutions they're looking into / developing right now to keep player's from bailing.

[tolakram]

How about a bucket XP, that gets dumped on the winning side, its filled by activities relating to keep taking.

How many players would identify this as too much timed risked without the guarantee of reward?

I think that if I'm in a keep defense or keep take I should see XP regularly given to me based on how long I've been involved and how many attackers / defenders there are.  If I'm just standing there not doing anything I get nothing, bit if I'm healing or attacking guards, or running siege equipment then every 15 minutes I get a gob of XP based on my contribution to the, um, stuff.

Let me expand on this.

The other night my son and I showed up at fangIcanneverrememberthetier2keep name, we had an open group, and we started taking out the guards that we could.  We should have received a small amount of participation XP for this.  A few minutes into it we gained a few more, fought along for 20 minutes, got a ram on the door.  We should have been receiving even more participation XP.  After an hour we had expanded to a warband and it was full.  Lots of participation XP should have been rewarded.

That sounds like fun and an easy way to gain XP while doing realm activities.

[Nebu]

Its probably only because I'm playing the game and until a few weeks ago, this was a fairly good place to see the aggregation of useful tidbits from around the net which related to it. Now there's a group of people who are saying the same thing so frequently that the incursions of blithering idiots from WHA are actually a refreshing break from the monotony. Its like watching WUA post about how wonderful UO is under 20 different pen names.

Just treat it like television.  I do.  If I don't see something worth my time, I flip the channel or just leave completely. 

Trust me Righ, I want WAR to do well.  I think that my desire for their success is what is leaving me so dejected.  It's also what has me blathering like an idiot about the game for the last few months.  I take the number of similar threads as a sign that others feel the same passion for WAR.  Sadly, the influx of new folks didn't help the fragmentation issue.   

[Righ]

The problem isn't really a lack of solutions to the current problems, its a lack of communication regarding what solutions they're looking into / developing right now to keep player's from bailing.

Um, I think the problem is a lack of solutions. Yes, they need better communication, but they need to fix the critical problems first and foremost. Server populations, population balance, XP reward rate, carrots for alternate scenarios to be used, client stability and performance, ORvR participation, zone control mechanisms and their transparency. Even the people who are enjoying the game think these things need fixing ASAP. Sure, it would be nice if they made a blog, but all the nice prose and goodwill in the world won't help if the game is still in this state in a few weeks time.

I'm willing to bet that the next complaint thread won't be about the lack of a developer blog.

Just treat it like television.  I do.  If I don't see something worth my time, I flip the channel or just leave completely. 

300 channels and nothing's on. ;)

[Beld]

The problem isn't really a lack of solutions to the current problems, its a lack of communication regarding what solutions they're looking into / developing right now to keep player's from bailing.

Um, I think the problem is a lack of solutions. Yes, they need better communication, but they need to fix the critical problems first and foremost. Server populations, population balance, XP reward rate, carrots for alternate scenarios to be used, client stability and performance, ORvR participation, zone control mechanisms and their transparency. Even the people who are enjoying the game think these things need fixing ASAP. Sure, it would be nice if they made a blog, but all the nice prose and goodwill in the world won't help if the game is still in this state in a few weeks time.

I'm willing to bet that the next complaint thread won't be about the lack of a developer blog.

Just treat it like television.  I do.  If I don't see something worth my time, I flip the channel or just leave completely. 

300 channels and nothing's on. ;)

Generally I've never felt the need to post here but I almost have to respond to this.  I can't imagine that you truly believe what you wrote.  Granted, we are all infinitely smarter than every game developer and clearly know all we need to know about their design decisions... but do you truly think the issue is a lack of solutions?  A brief canvassing of any 5 threads here will provide you with a plethora of solutions.  Not all of them are viable or even tenable, but they certainly exist.  Not to mention we already know MBJ reads them.

No, I don't think you really believe that Mark and his cohorts are sitting in a conference room staring moronically into each other's eyes as they just muttter "duuuuuuuuhhhh" over and over.  The real issue is communication.  We know that the 100% lake bonus doesn't really do much to address the issue.  One has to assume that the developers are aware of this as well.  A brief reading of Mark's recent comments indicate he is likely aware of this.  It was a brief bandaid put on because it could be.  No, what you are really bemoaning is that we aren't provided with a webcast into the developer conference room so we know what they are discussing, how long it may take and why they are going with a certain approach.

This applies as much to the scenario issue as it does to the realm population issue.  In the end not many of us would be completely satisfied unless we were privy to what leads up to the decision, but I think what most people here would like at this point is a preview into what their plans are to address each issue (other than the obvious xp bosst).  That way we have more to bitch and wrangle about while we put off the work we should be doing instead :)

[Nebu]

Ideas are easy.  Implementation is hard. 

I think that covers it.