SWTOR

[Paelos]

This time I'm running an EVIL petting zoo.  

[Ingmar]

I think you should be able in some fashion be able to respec between anything that has the same storyline, personally.

I think this makes a good point. Why should I have to go back through the Trooper storyline with two characters just because I want to have a Vanguard and a Commando? It's needlessly redundant for a game that's built on story > all.

Trump card: The alignment system.  You can go through the content choosing all the 'good' choices and see/experience the outcome as a Vanguard, and then go back through with a Commando and make all the 'evil' choices.

You underestimate how much the story content will make you feel attached to that one specific character though. For groups like mine where that kind of choice will outweigh the actual gameplay of a given class, at least for most of us, the ability to respec between ACs could pretty easily make the difference between us being able to do endgame raid type content or not I think.

[Evildrider]

For the record, I'm pretty indifferent to AC switching.  Since I don't do endgame shit or even group much, being gimped or unwanted doesn't bother me much.

I think that with AC switching you lose a bit of your individuality.  At least if there are two kinds of troopers you aren't all lumped into the same pile.  I guess I like that there are 8 different types of characters instead of 4.

[Montague]

They never said a hybrid healer/dps would be as good a healer as a pure healer or as good a dps as a pure dps.  What they said was that if you focus on a function you will be as good at that function as anyone else who focused on that function.

Why you would play one DPS style over another comes to personal preference and preferred play style because DPS types then are broken down by style.

For the pure DPS classes, no other class fills their function/playstyle.
Sentinel/Marauder is melee AOE DPS.
Gunslinger/Sniper is ranged burst dps.
For the hybrids there is overlap on primary function but they have variety in secondary functions for example Scoundrel/Operative and

Shadow/Assassin are melee stealth DPS but S/O can be healers and S/A can be tanks.

Etc...

 I've read the same article you're quoting.  I understand the whole 'playstyle' thing, but numbers are numbers, and they did in fact say that there is no 'hybrid-tax'.  A sniper calling down an orbital death star strike will be just as effective as my Jedi Sage's Crane Kick to the throat, if said Crane Kick to the throat was my Sage's DPS tree ending ability.

So if I'm some big-shot raid leader with an elite but small crew, why would I have my crew waste time on a pure DPS, when they could role a
hybrid and fill in roles on nights when our main person may be off?

We've been over this before. It would take three times longer to gear you up to be useful in all three roles. Then, what happens if you quit the guild? All the time and effort and loot gearing you up is wasted. Not to mention the fact that it is really difficult to start let's say tanking highend content after learning the fight by dpsing or healing. I've tried the jack of all trades role as a raiding paladin. It is far more difficult to do than you make it sound, and to me it wasn't worth the effort.

[Nevermore]

I think the problem with AC respec Druids respeccing is it's going to cause problems like, why play anything else than a Sith Inquisitor Druid?  They can tank, rdps, mdps, and heal.  I don't think its in the games best interest to let everyone be able to have a class that can tank, heal, and dps.  Very few would roll the Jedi Knight, Sith Warrior, Smuggler, or Imperial Agent Warrior, Priest, Mage or Rogue, because those classes wouldn't be able to "do it all."

I guess this is why 80% of WoW players only play Druids, right?  

[Sky]

So if I'm some big-shot raid leader with an elite but small crew, why would I have my crew waste time on a pure DPS, when they could role a hybrid and fill in roles on nights when our main person may be off?

Your reach, it hath exceeded your grasp.

edit: BWA's reasoning is that some people aren't interested in doing any role outside DPS. Some people don't want to tank or heal. Why shouldn't they get more options to DPS? I think it's a great idea. And while I see some good reasons for allowing AC swapping, I still don't think it's a good idea.

[Evildrider]

I think the problem with AC respec Druids respeccing is it's going to cause problems like, why play anything else than a Sith Inquisitor Druid?  They can tank, rdps, mdps, and heal.  I don't think its in the games best interest to let everyone be able to have a class that can tank, heal, and dps.  Very few would roll the Jedi Knight, Sith Warrior, Smuggler, or Imperial Agent Warrior, Priest, Mage or Rogue, because those classes wouldn't be able to "do it all."

I guess this is why 80% of WoW players only play Druids, right?  

Pally's and Druids are the two of the most played classes out of the 10 classes in WoW. 

If you have 2 classes that can do it all out of 4, which is what would happen with AC switching, you don't think that it would skew the numbers?

[Ingmar]

I think the problem with AC respec Druids respeccing is it's going to cause problems like, why play anything else than a Sith Inquisitor Druid?  They can tank, rdps, mdps, and heal.  I don't think its in the games best interest to let everyone be able to have a class that can tank, heal, and dps.  Very few would roll the Jedi Knight, Sith Warrior, Smuggler, or Imperial Agent Warrior, Priest, Mage or Rogue, because those classes wouldn't be able to "do it all."

I guess this is why 80% of WoW players only play Druids, right?  

Pally's and Druids are the two of the most played classes out of the 10 classes in WoW.  

If you have 2 classes that can do it all out of 4, which is what would happen with AC switching, you don't think that it would skew the numbers?

They're slightly higher.

http://www.warcraftrealms.com/census.php

And you'll note that the other 2 'high' classes (mages and hunters) are both pure dps. The evidence that people pick classes based on mechanical issues rather than "I want to be a wizard!" is just not there, except at the very very high end of hardcore raiders/pvpers.

Look no further than the race census above the class one if you're not convinced. People aren't picking blood elves for their awesome mechanically powerful racials.

[Evildrider]

It will still be worse in a game with only 4 classes over 10.  Which is what you seem to skip over.

Add in the fact that Sith Inquisitor is already looking to be the most popular class and BH not far behind.

[Paelos]

It will still be worse in a game with only 4 classes over 10.  Which is what you seem to skip over.

Add in the fact that Sith Inquisitor is already looking to be the most popular class and BH not far behind.

4 classes on one side. There are 8 classes overall there, chuckles.

I just want to make sure that you are on record as arguing against flexibility on this issue.

[Amaron]

I think this makes a good point. Why should I have to go back through the Trooper storyline with two characters just because I want to have a Vanguard and a Commando? It's needlessly redundant for a game that's built on story > all.

You can reverse that though.   If I have a max level Trooper that can switch AC's that will make running the Bounty Hunter story less appealing.   There's nothing more boring than leveling a class I already have.

[Ingmar]

It will still be worse in a game with only 4 classes over 10.  Which is what you seem to skip over.

Add in the fact that Sith Inquisitor is already looking to be the most popular class and BH not far behind.

Now show me evidence that it is the most popular class because of how it can spec. As opposed to 'because I get to force choke people and it has an awesome voice actor and look' or whatever. Or I GET TO BE BOBA FETT? SOLD.

I think this makes a good point. Why should I have to go back through the Trooper storyline with two characters just because I want to have a Vanguard and a Commando? It's needlessly redundant for a game that's built on story > all.

You can reverse that though.   If I have a max level Trooper that can switch AC's that will make running the Bounty Hunter story less appealing.   There's nothing more boring than leveling a class I already have.

Sure there is, leveling a class I already have through the exact same story. Which is what I'd have to do if I wanted the other version of a Trooper.

[Nevermore]

It will still be worse in a game with only 4 classes over 10.  Which is what you seem to skip over.

Add in the fact that Sith Inquisitor is already looking to be the most popular class and BH not far behind.

That couldn't possibly be because people just like the idea of the evil Sith jedi or the badass Bounty Hunter, right?  Make a class out of something not quite as iconic from the movies, like say Ewok Spear Chucker, and give them Tank, RDPS, MDPS and Heal roles and see how popular that is compared to the rest.

[Evildrider]

It will still be worse in a game with only 4 classes over 10.  Which is what you seem to skip over.

Add in the fact that Sith Inquisitor is already looking to be the most popular class and BH not far behind.

4 classes on one side. There are 8 classes overall there, chuckles.

I just want to make sure that you are on record as arguing against flexibility on this issue.

My bad 8 classes, consisting of 4 mirrors.  

I'm not against flexibiltiy as much as I am against having half the class options taken away.  I have no problems with respecing within your AC.  Like I said if I play a Bounty Hunter and I choose Powertech.  I want it to mean something.

[koro]

If there's one game that really, desperately needs its client distributed via torrent, it's TOR.

The fact that this is being served up via direct download is insanity.

[Malakili]

The evidence that people pick classes based on mechanical issues rather than "I want to be a wizard!" is just not there, except at the very very high end of hardcore raiders/pvpers.

This is right I think.  Even when I was raiding few people chose their class base on this sort of thing.  Most people simply played what they wanted, and if they were good enough, it was fine.  Granted, we weren't ultra high end, but we were near the top of our particular server.  Heck, even I, who care about this sort of thing generally speaking, am not going to choose my class in a game based on this.   It sounds good on paper, but I think in practice people just play what "feels" right.  (Oh, I should say for full disclosure, I played a Druid in WoW, but it was because I liked their lore from WC3  , and it was the very first character I made the day I bought the game, same character still kicking at level 85, though I don't currently have an active sub.)

[Lantyssa]

Every class gets at least one pretty lady to romance.

Each male of a class gets one pretty lady to romance...

[Sjofn]

Look no further than the race census above the class one if you're not convinced. People aren't picking blood elves for their awesome mechanically powerful racials.

That bullshit silence is pretty rad, though! Adds extra "ooh, burnnnnnn" when my pretty, pretty paladin boy interrupts a fellow healer and then follows up with that. 


But anyway, yeah, people are not going to not play a freaking Jedi Knight because it can't do everything. The very notion is fucking absurd.

[Ingmar]

Every class gets at least one pretty lady to romance.

Each male of a class gets one pretty lady to romance...

Which they've been pretty responsive to changing. Especially compared to you know, every single other MMO on the market as far as I've seen.

[Evildrider]

Sure there is, leveling a class I already have through the exact same story. Which is what I'd have to do if I wanted the other version of a Trooper.

So basically you want a class that can do everything.  Because that's what being a trooper with both vanguard and commando would be.  

[Ingmar]

I don't give a fuck what they can do in specific terms, what I know is I will have a character I want to play because of who they are in my head, and I know we will be short on <role X> when we get to the end game, and it will be really frustrating if I made the wrong choice on the way up and can't adapt the character I'm invested in to what my group needs. It doesn't matter to me what that role is or how many there are. I don't care about doing "everything", I care about doing the one thing we end up needing that I can't predict yet when I make the choice. If it is a role my class can't have on either side anyway, fine, I'm not going to lose sleep, what will annoy me is if it is something I *could* have done but chose to go down the healer path instead of the tank path or whatever.

And limiting it to one chance to change is no good, because players quit and join and what we need in 6 months might not be what we need now.

In a story based game character should absolutely trump mechanical role, unless the advanced classes themselves are deeply integrated into the story.

[eldaec]

Personally I think the advanced class gives you the perfect mechanism to design in dual speccing.

I'd have let every character be both advanced classes, maintain one juggernaught spec, one marauder spec, (for example) and switch between the two at will.

So basically you want a class that can do everything.  Because that's what being a trooper with both vanguard and commando would be.  

More specifically he wants a class that can do everything, but not all at the same time.

Just like UO, EVE, Rift, GW or any other non-class game or any other class based game with multi-speccing.

[Morfiend]

I don't give a fuck what they can do in specific terms, what I know is I will have a character I want to play because of who they are in my head, and I know we will be short on <role X> when we get to the end game, and it will be really frustrating if I made the wrong choice on the way up and can't adapt the character I'm invested in to what my group needs. It doesn't matter to me what that role is or how many there are. I don't care about doing "everything", I care about doing the one thing we end up needing that I can't predict yet when I make the choice. If it is a role my class can't have on either side anyway, fine, I'm not going to lose sleep, what will annoy me is if it is something I *could* have done but chose to go down the healer path instead of the tank path or whatever.

And limiting it to one chance to change is no good, because players quit and join and what we need in 6 months might not be what we need now.

In a story based game character should absolutely trump mechanical role, unless the advanced classes themselves are deeply integrated into the story.

I completely agree with this.

I think its all a moot point right now anyhow. The devs have said that they plan to allow people to respec between ACs, but that it wont be as cheap or easy as respeccing between specs. They said they havent decided what yet, but ether it would require a time consuming quest, or be very expensive or something along those lines.

[koro]

So that "anti-clown button" that was talked up in interviews at PAX and such that matches the color of your outfit to that of your chest piece (and does a little bit more than that, since it also retextures some stuff for some classes), which was one of the flat-out neatest things in the game has been removed. Intentionally.

 

[01101010]

I completely agree with this.

I think its all a moot point right now anyhow. The devs have said that they plan to allow people to respec between ACs, but that it wont be as cheap or easy as respeccing between specs. They said they havent decided what yet, but ether it would require a time consuming quest, or be very expensive or something along those lines.

I vote the quest. Make it matter more than I have to sell shit to get enough to cover the cost.

[luckton]

So that "anti-clown button" that was talked up in interviews at PAX and such that matches the color of your outfit to that of your chest piece (and does a little bit more than that, since it also retextures some stuff for some classes), which was one of the flat-out neatest things in the game has been removed. Intentionally.

 

Source?

[Amaron]

I have to say I don't see the point of allowing it yet making it overly onerous.   Most of the people who want it expect to be able to play both AC's whenever they feel like it instead of switching once a month or whatever.   Making it expensive or whatever is just an elaborate way of saying "no you can't have dual spec AC switching".

[koro]

So that "anti-clown button" that was talked up in interviews at PAX and such that matches the color of your outfit to that of your chest piece (and does a little bit more than that, since it also retextures some stuff for some classes), which was one of the flat-out neatest things in the game has been removed. Intentionally.

 

Source?

From Georg Zoeller:

Please note that this is an intentional change, not a bug.

As usual for our testing, we often test ideas, feature changes, and different designs along with the normal testing of game content.

This round, you're testing the game without it and we encourage you to give your opinion and feedback on this change (and any other change you agree/disagree with, of course).

-- georg

Edit: Apparently this, like the old mod system that was gutted last build, is something that was removed just to "see what happens." I suspect it'll be put back in next build/launch, but it's utterly bizarre that it'd be removed in the first place, since it worked fine and was completely optional.

[Fordel]

Rats in a Maze. 



They probably want feedback on individual armor piece appearance, since if you turn that option on you never know what the actual colors are.

[Murgos]

I've read the same article you're quoting.  I understand the whole 'playstyle' thing, but numbers are numbers, and they did in fact say that there is no 'hybrid-tax'.  A sniper calling down an orbital death star strike will be just as effective as my Jedi Sage's Crane Kick to the throat, if said Crane Kick to the throat was my Sage's DPS tree ending ability.

So if I'm some big-shot raid leader with an elite but small crew, why would I have my crew waste time on a pure DPS, when they could role a hybrid and fill in roles on nights when our main person may be off?

If you had comprehended he same article we both read you would realize that he made a distinction between hybrid tax and spreading your spec points around to different trees.

Specced in multiple trees is not as effective as fully specced in one tree at that particular skill.  Be it healing, dps or what-have-you.  Hybrid tax is a penalty in addition over and above talent dilution.

[Jherad]

Edit: Apparently this, like the old mod system that was gutted last build, is something that was removed just to "see what happens." I suspect it'll be put back in next build/launch, but it's utterly bizarre that it'd be removed in the first place, since it worked fine and was completely optional.

Good grief. That had better make its way back in. Such a simple idea, and really helped with immersion.

Although...

Limits the need for cash shop dyes.

 

[Simond]

Starting to sound a little Sinij-y there, Luckton.

Yeah, he should have stuck to "Origin is badly programmed and EA is trying to use it as a blunt instrument to try and bludgeon Steam to death with" (i.e. the facts)

[luckton]

Starting to sound a little Sinij-y there, Luckton.

Yeah, he should have stuck to "Origin is badly programmed and EA is trying to use it as a blunt instrument to try and bludgeon Steam to death with" (i.e. the facts)

[Morfiend]

Starting to sound a little Sinij-y there, Luckton.

Yeah, he should have stuck to "Origin is badly programmed and EA is trying to use it as a blunt instrument to try and bludgeon Steam to death with" (i.e. the facts)

Dude. This is the internet. 

[koro]

Starting to sound a little Sinij-y there, Luckton.

Yeah, he should have stuck to "Origin is badly programmed and EA is trying to use it as a blunt instrument to try and bludgeon Steam to death with" (i.e. the facts)

Dude. This is the internet. 

Well Origin does scan every file on your hard drive, requesting access to each one and tends to not want to release access back to you...