SWTOR

[Evildrider]

You really think that people should just be able to switch their class?  I mean so instead of having 8 seperate class types you want to bring it down to 4?  

I mean you might as well let a Sith Warrior respec into a Sith Sorcerer if they want then.  

[Paelos]

Perhaps I misunderstood the class vs. spec thing?

I thought there were only 4 classes with two different functions? I'm in favor of switching functions, not switching from a trooper to a jedi.

[Evildrider]

Perhaps I misunderstood the class vs. spec thing?

I thought there were only 4 classes with two different functions? I'm in favor of switching functions, not switching from a trooper to a jedi.

Each class: Trooper, Jedi Knight, Bounty Hunter etc. is actually 2 different classes.  So say a Bounty Hunter can become a Powertech or a Mercenary.  They both get totally different abilities and they both have 3 skill trees from them to spec into.  I have no problems with dual-spec ala WoW within your advanced class.  I just am against them letting people switch between advanced classes.  

[Draegan]

From what has been publicly released, each AC (Advanced Class) has two AC specific talent trees and the third is shared by the common base class.

Currently they are allowing you to respec for a fee like every other game.  They are thinking about Dual Specs (saving specs to change out at will) but won't be in for release for sure.

They are currently thinking about ways to switch you AC but details of that are still foggy and zero detail has been released publicly other than "we're talking about it, and if we do it, we have to think of how we're going to do it".

That's all I know for 100% surity is out in the public.  The rest of the comments fall into grey territory where I forget what is NDA breaking and what is free game.

[Fordel]

There are 4 base classes, which are mirrored on each faction, for a total of 8 class story lines.

Each base class splits into two sub classes, each sub class has 3 talent trees, two are unique to the sub class, and 1 is shared between both subclasses of the base class. Each sub class gets its own unique abilities, from talents and training. Sub classes share the same storylines as their parent base class.



Troopers split into Vanguards or Commandos

Vanguards have a Tank Tree, a DPS Tree and the Shared Tree
Commandos have a Heal Tree, a DPS tree and the Shared Tree
The Shared Tree is a mix of DPS and Utility from what I've seen.

Vanguards and Commandos gain unique abilities relevant to their sub classes, and they also share the baseline abilities from the Trooper base class. Story wise a Commando and Vanguard are identical, they share the exact same plot and conversations and companions and etc.


The Bounty Hunter is mechanically identical to the Trooper, but visually/thematically different.

PowerTech = Vanguard
Mercenary = Commando

Both the PowerTech and the Mercenary share the same baseline Bounty Hunter story.



Are the distinctions between the sub classes enough to prevent switching? I'm not really sold either way yet.

You can respec your talent points like you are used too in other games. Like my Vanguard could go to the trainer and respec between the Tank Tree and the DPS Tree or the Shared Tree for the usual small money cost.

[Evildrider]

Aye, one of the trees focuses on improving the base classes abilities.  

[luckton]

Perhaps I misunderstood the class vs. spec thing?

I thought there were only 4 classes with two different functions? I'm in favor of switching functions, not switching from a trooper to a jedi.

Each class: Trooper, Jedi Knight, Bounty Hunter etc. is actually 2 different classes.  So say a Bounty Hunter can become a Powertech or a Mercenary.  They both get totally different abilities and they both have 3 skill trees from them to spec into.  I have no problems with dual-spec ala WoW within your advanced class.  I just am against them letting people switch between advanced classes.  

This.  Although to be fair, if we're going to use WoW as a comparison, the argument is changing.  Before, in vanilla, BC and Wrath, your class was your class, and though you had talents that made your particular play-style of that class different, you could still do things other things.  Starting with Cata, you were kinda choosing an 'advanced class' when you hit level 10, and got some things/skill/passives that the other talent specs for your class couldn't get.  With MoP, that divide becomes even more profound since they're getting rid of talent trees and just giving your talent spec abilities and stuff that perhaps was openly available before, but no longer in Pandaria.

Still, WoW's classes are varied enough to offer three specs per class, whereas TOR right now is four classes with two sub-classes, and further divided by three specs per sub-class.  If they took out that layer of two sub-classes, there would be no difference.

[Fordel]

Basically, did you ever play DaoC? You know how you start off as a Guardian or a Mage or whatever, then become a Hero or a Eldritch?


Similar deal in SWTOR.

[Evildrider]

I think the problem with AC respec is it's going to cause problems like, why play anything else than a Sith Inquisitor?  They can tank, rdps, mdps, and heal.  I don't think its in the games best interest to let everyone be able to have a class that can tank, heal, and dps.  Very few would roll the Jedi Knight, Sith Warrior, Smuggler, or Imperial Agent, because those classes wouldn't be able to "do it all."

[Murgos]

Think about this.  If Bioware had just said that there are 8 classes mirrored by faction, you choose what you want to be at start and that there are 4 character stories based on starting class I don't think anyone would even be asking for advanced class changes.  It's what people have been conditioned to expect, when you say it's one class with two sub-classes people start to think, "Well, it's the same class why can't I just respec?"

e: My point is that if it's just context demanding that there should be AC respecs and no mechanical need than there isn't really a compelling reason to have it.

[luckton]

I think the problem with AC respec is going to go into things problems like, why play anything else than a Sith Inquisitor?  They can tank, rdps, mdps, and heal.  I don't think its in the games best interest to let everyone be able to have a class that can tank, heal, and dps.  Very few would roll the Jedi Knight, Sith Warrior, Smuggler, or Imperial Agent, because those classes wouldn't be able to "do it all."

This point is even further compounded by BW's admission that there's no fundamental difference stat/numbers-wise between a Jedi healer and a Smuggler healer, or a Sith DPS and a BH DPS.  It's just different skins and animation.  I don't see how the Gunslinger and Sniper sub-classes are going to get played at all.  Since those two can only DPS, and every other DPS spec is just as good, what's the point?

[Evildrider]

Think about this.  If Bioware had just said that there are 8 classes mirrored by faction, you choose what you want to be at start and that there are 4 character stories based on starting class I don't think anyone would even be asking for advanced class changes.  It's what people have been conditioned to expect, when you say it's one class with two sub-classes people start to think, "Well, it's the same class why can't I just respec?"

Yeah this is pretty much the problem.  Yet these same people roll 8 different classes in another game that all have the same story.  :D

[Evildrider]

I think the problem with AC respec is going to go into things problems like, why play anything else than a Sith Inquisitor?  They can tank, rdps, mdps, and heal.  I don't think its in the games best interest to let everyone be able to have a class that can tank, heal, and dps.  Very few would roll the Jedi Knight, Sith Warrior, Smuggler, or Imperial Agent, because those classes wouldn't be able to "do it all."

This point is even further compounded by BW's admission that there's no fundamental difference stat/numbers-wise between a Jedi healer and a Smuggler healer, or a Sith DPS and a BH DPS.  It's just different skins and animation.  I don't see how the Gunslinger and Sniper sub-classes are going to get played at all.  Since those two can only DPS, and every other DPS spec is just as good, what's the point?

It basically comes down to playstyle there.  There are people, like myself, that don't mind rolling classes that are pure DPS.  You still have the ability to change in what ways you dps, like say long range or short range/melee dps.

I do agree with what Bioware is trying to do though.  At least they recognize they have to keep a balance between all the classes right out of the gate.   Especially if they are going to put in as much PvP as they have.

[Fordel]

Oh, there is no shortage of Snipers and Gunslingers, don't you worry about that.  


Seriously, you're worried that people won't play the pure DPS specs?


-edit- I'm replying to Luckton up there.

[ajax34i]

Most popular class could be based on the quality of the story, rather than on being able to "do it all."  Much like elves are popular because they are pretty, if only one class gets a pretty female companion AND is able to nailromance her, there you go (not sure if that's the Sith Inquisitor, and while it's easy to check, shrug, won't bother).

In any case, the game could be about WoW-style raiding, or it could be a single-player game which can be re-played 8 times.

[Fordel]

Every class gets at least one pretty lady to romance.

[luckton]

Oh, there is no shortage of Snipers and Gunslingers, don't you worry about that.  


Seriously, you're worried that people won't play the pure DPS specs?


-edit- I'm replying to Luckton up there.

Oh I'm sure there will be plenty.  Just for fun, remind me again how long a pure DPS class sits in the LFD queue before getting a group?  

[Evildrider]

Every class gets at least one pretty lady to romance.

But only one class gives you a Jawa with a rocket launcher.  

[Evildrider]

Oh, there is no shortage of Snipers and Gunslingers, don't you worry about that.  


Seriously, you're worried that people won't play the pure DPS specs?


-edit- I'm replying to Luckton up there.

Oh I'm sure there will be plenty.  Just for fun, remind me again how long a pure DPS class sits in the LFD queue before getting a group?  

There is no LFD, so in SWTOR forever?  

[luckton]

There is no LFD, so in SWTOR forever?  

More than likely yes.  LFD at least gave DPS a chance to get in some dungeon runs and whatnot.  Before LFD in WoW, I can clearly recall the time difference I was sent in invite to a group when I said "DPS Hunter LFG any Heroic" and when I said "Pally Tank LFG any Heroic".

[Sky]

I'm heading to Bioware Austin for the Fansite Summit next week.  Should be  

Are you a Sith Lord looking to turn the Jedi here? It's working.

Nag them about putting in a Rift-style selectable one-ahead ability queue kthxlvu.  

[Murgos]

This point is even further compounded by BW's admission that there's no fundamental difference stat/numbers-wise between a Jedi healer and a Smuggler healer, or a Sith DPS and a BH DPS.  It's just different skins and animation.  I don't see how the Gunslinger and Sniper sub-classes are going to get played at all.  Since those two can only DPS, and every other DPS spec is just as good, what's the point?

They never said a hybrid healer/dps would be as good a healer as a pure healer or as good a dps as a pure dps.  What they said was that if you focus on a function you will be as good at that function as anyone else who focused on that function.

Why you would play one DPS style over another comes to personal preference and preferred play style because DPS types then are broken down by style.

For the pure DPS classes, no other class fills their function/playstyle.
Sentinel/Marauder is melee AOE DPS.
Gunslinger/Sniper is ranged burst dps.

For the hybrids there is overlap on primary function but they have variety in secondary functions for example Scoundrel/Operative and Shadow/Assassin are melee stealth DPS but S/O can be healers and S/A can be tanks.

Etc...

fakeedit:  There was a dev post a few weeks back saying that they were working on LFD.

[Evildrider]

The biggest hit to people that just like to dps is also the fact that instead of 60% of a dungeon make-up being DPS it's now only 50%.  I think more people may be interested in tanking in SWTOR though because of the ranged tank aspect.  Its the main reason I am rolling a Powertech personally... well and Blizz.  

[Sjofn]

I think the problem with AC respec is it's going to cause problems like, why play anything else than a Sith Inquisitor?  They can tank, rdps, mdps, and heal.  I don't think its in the games best interest to let everyone be able to have a class that can tank, heal, and dps.  Very few would roll the Jedi Knight, Sith Warrior, Smuggler, or Imperial Agent, because those classes wouldn't be able to "do it all."

Bullshit.

[Evildrider]

fakeedit:  There was a dev post a few weeks back saying that they were working on LFD.

Yeah I know it's coming, I was just being snarky.  It just won't be in at launch.  I'll be highly surprised if it isn't in the first major patch.  I just hope they don't make it cross-server right away.

[Fordel]

Every class gets at least one pretty lady to romance.

But only one class gives you a Jawa with a rocket launcher.  

This is very very true.


-edit-

I think there might be more healers/tanks not because of the group distribution, but because of the companions. Being a healing specced person with no one to heal blows chunks for the most part. Now you'll always have your little Jawa friend to take care of.

[Evildrider]

Every class gets at least one pretty lady to romance.

But only one class gives you a Jawa with a rocket launcher.  

This is very very true.


-edit-

I think there might be more healers/tanks not because of the group distribution, but because of the companions. Being a healing specced person with no one to heal blows chunks for the most part. Now you'll always have your little Jawa friend to take care of.

Indeed, the healers in my current guild are hopping for joy at that. 

[Ingmar]

I think you should be able in some fashion be able to respec between anything that has the same storyline, personally.

I don't buy the 'oh well, everyone will play a consular or inquisitor then' line at all. WoW isn't just a giant mass of people playing druids or paladins.

[luckton]

They never said a hybrid healer/dps would be as good a healer as a pure healer or as good a dps as a pure dps.  What they said was that if you focus on a function you will be as good at that function as anyone else who focused on that function.

Why you would play one DPS style over another comes to personal preference and preferred play style because DPS types then are broken down by style.

For the pure DPS classes, no other class fills their function/playstyle.
Sentinel/Marauder is melee AOE DPS.
Gunslinger/Sniper is ranged burst dps.

For the hybrids there is overlap on primary function but they have variety in secondary functions for example Scoundrel/Operative and Shadow/Assassin are melee stealth DPS but S/O can be healers and S/A can be tanks.

Etc...

 I've read the same article you're quoting.  I understand the whole 'playstyle' thing, but numbers are numbers, and they did in fact say that there is no 'hybrid-tax'.  A sniper calling down an orbital death star strike will be just as effective as my Jedi Sage's Crane Kick to the throat, if said Crane Kick to the throat was my Sage's DPS tree ending ability.

So if I'm some big-shot raid leader with an elite but small crew, why would I have my crew waste time on a pure DPS, when they could role a hybrid and fill in roles on nights when our main person may be off?

[Miasma]

The only people who would seriously consider playing their second or third favourite class as their main just so that they could, potentially, have more utility are those that post in threads like this and in the grand scheme of things there aren't very many of us.  You can rest assured that the vast majority will pick whatever the hell they think is the coolest.

As in at least 75% of people will be carrying one or more lightsabres.

[Paelos]

I think you should be able in some fashion be able to respec between anything that has the same storyline, personally.

I think this makes a good point. Why should I have to go back through the Trooper storyline with two characters just because I want to have a Vanguard and a Commando? It's needlessly redundant for a game that's built on story > all.

[Evildrider]

They never said a hybrid healer/dps would be as good a healer as a pure healer or as good a dps as a pure dps.  What they said was that if you focus on a function you will be as good at that function as anyone else who focused on that function.

Why you would play one DPS style over another comes to personal preference and preferred play style because DPS types then are broken down by style.

For the pure DPS classes, no other class fills their function/playstyle.
Sentinel/Marauder is melee AOE DPS.
Gunslinger/Sniper is ranged burst dps.

For the hybrids there is overlap on primary function but they have variety in secondary functions for example Scoundrel/Operative and Shadow/Assassin are melee stealth DPS but S/O can be healers and S/A can be tanks.

Etc...

 I've read the same article you're quoting.  I understand the whole 'playstyle' thing, but numbers are numbers, and they did in fact say that there is no 'hybrid-tax'.  A sniper calling down an orbital death star strike will be just as effective as my Jedi Sage's Crane Kick to the throat, if said Crane Kick to the throat was my Sage's DPS tree ending ability.

So if I'm some big-shot raid leader with an elite but small crew, why would I have my crew waste time on a pure DPS, when they could role a hybrid and fill in roles on nights when our main person may be off?

Which also goes back to what I was talking about in AC switching as well.  Why would you let anyone in that didn't have a class that can't tank/heal/dps.


As for the sniper and jedi sage... you can't do a crane kick from 35 m away, using cover that makes you highly resistant to damage.  It's also about what you can do and how you do it.

[luckton]

I think you should be able in some fashion be able to respec between anything that has the same storyline, personally.

I think this makes a good point. Why should I have to go back through the Trooper storyline with two characters just because I want to have a Vanguard and a Commando? It's needlessly redundant for a game that's built on story > all.

Trump card: The alignment system.  You can go through the content choosing all the 'good' choices and see/experience the outcome as a Vanguard, and then go back through with a Commando and make all the 'evil' choices.

[Rasix]

I think you should be able in some fashion be able to respec between anything that has the same storyline, personally.

I think this makes a good point. Why should I have to go back through the Trooper storyline with two characters just because I want to have a Vanguard and a Commando? It's needlessly redundant for a game that's built on story > all.

Plenty of people have played Bioware games more than one time through the same story line.  Second time through you can kick puppies!

For the record, I'm pretty indifferent to AC switching.  Since I don't do endgame shit or even group much, being gimped or unwanted doesn't bother me much.

[Evildrider]

I think you should be able in some fashion be able to respec between anything that has the same storyline, personally.

I think this makes a good point. Why should I have to go back through the Trooper storyline with two characters just because I want to have a Vanguard and a Commando? It's needlessly redundant for a game that's built on story > all.

Why do people roll multiple characters in WoW when they all have the same story?  Besides your story will change if you say do one as dark side and do the other as light or grey.  It's not like people don't replay DA or ME multiple times to see the different decisions.