SWTOR

[tmp]

Here is how it looks at the moment:

The more things change...

[UnSub]

BioWare's own stats indicate that 50% of players who started Mass Effect 2 didn't finish it. Story doesn't drive everyone.

I'm not sure how you think you can even remotely tie those two things together?   Obviously story doesn't drive everyone (durr people are different).   If you want to say those stats show 50% of ME2 players weren't driven by story though then that's just pure rubbish.

My point was that even in ME2, which is arguably BioWare's most polished recent title, the fairly standard shooter mechanics plus the BioWare characterisation benefits weren't enough to drive more than about half the players who started it all the way through 30 - 40 hours of play (based on BioWare's own stats, which would exclude those who play ME2 off-line). Which they could get for only paying a box cost.

SWOR is promising something 5x bigger, is indicating that its key attraction will be story / characterisation and requires a monthly sub. This is going to possibly make it harder to keep players around, unless they do hit the sweet spot.

Plus my original comment was regarding BioWare's hope that they story would be enough to stop players racing to the end game / max level. It isn't going to be for certain player types; on top of which I believe it might not be enough to even get players to the end game.

[tmp]

Question would be what's typical retention rate for a computer game to begin with. Apparently 50% people didn't finish Portal 2 either, for example.

[Morfiend]

Now I'm not sure I still want to be a bounty hunter...cool armor AND lightsabers!

Caladein, if you're planning on buying at launch, sign up for BC Imperial Chapter. PM me here if you choose a non-Caladein-ish nick.

Memememememe.

[Merusk]

Question would be what's typical retention rate for a computer game to begin with. Apparently 50% people didn't finish Portal 2 either, for example.

Most people don't finish games at all, regardless of platform.  There were a few articles floating around in gaming mags a year or two ago.  I read the article I'm remembering in Game Informer but seeing as I'm at work I can't be arsed to search for it.

Anyway, it boiled down to a host of reasons. Difficulty (which is why Nintendo experimented with the "play the level for you" thing), a lack of time, or simple boredom or distraction.  There's no panacea for it but it's more common than not.

[Nebu]

I am among them.  I'll bet that I only complete about 10% of the games that I buy on any platform.  Boredom is the primary reason.  Oddly, I think I've made it to the endgame of nearly every MMO that I've played. 

I think the story will be enough to hold on to some players just to see things through until the end.  For the majority, they will stay with the 'achiever' mentality and grind through the content at an insatiable rate.  I doubt that the story and voice overs will be much more than a nuisance to most players.   They will turn them off instantly if they feel it will speed up the ding-gratz.

[Paelos]

I am among them.  I'll bet that I only complete about 10% of the games that I buy on any platform.  Boredom is the primary reason. 

I finish most, but some just annoy me as well. Total War games are like this. I'll get 20 territories, realize I'm #1 in every stat, and that I'm going to win. The game unfortunately wants me to steamroll 25 more, for some reason.

Also, Dragon Age. I always get stuck on that stupid Denerim Ashes bullshit. I saved the king and knifed your son, lets have a Landsmeet already! I have votes, bitch!

[Cyrrex]

Two updates today!

- Sith Warrior "Progression video":

http://www.swtor.com/media/trailers/sith-warrior-progression

The Marauder looks amazing, IMO; I also liked the last bits of action involving the Juggernaut.


- Dev Blog (Michael Voigt, Lead UI Artist) illustrating the recent changes to the game interface:

http://www.swtor.com/news/blog/20110429

Here is how it looks at the moment:

Am I the only one who thought the music was amazing in the first video?  Wow.

[Draegan]

http://www.bit-tech.net/gaming/pc/2011/04/29/star-wars-the-old-republic-preview/1

Bioware has made a lot of noise about how it has infused a series of deep, immersive, epic stories into its upcoming long-ago and far-away MMO – and how those stories set The Old Republic apart from any other MMO. The stories that The Old Republic tell will keep players engaged and involved in a genre which all too often comes down to collecting nerf livers and skipping dialog text.

Well, supposedly, anyway. Our opinion of The Old Republic, formed over two solid days of playing, is that it’s one of the most boring titles we’ve ever had to endure. It’s plain and staid and deathly dull. It’s both exactly the same as every other MMO we've played, but at the same time so much worse because it promises so much more.

Harsh.

[Ingmar]

You should of quoted this in stead.

MMO players are a bunch of fucking retards, of course they'll race to the top in a game where it's about the journey. Won't make it any less of an enjoyable journey for the rest of us.

See: LOTRO.

I finally finished Volume I! 

[Paelos]

http://www.bit-tech.net/gaming/pc/2011/04/29/star-wars-the-old-republic-preview/1

Bioware has made a lot of noise about how it has infused a series of deep, immersive, epic stories into its upcoming long-ago and far-away MMO – and how those stories set The Old Republic apart from any other MMO. The stories that The Old Republic tell will keep players engaged and involved in a genre which all too often comes down to collecting nerf livers and skipping dialog text.

Well, supposedly, anyway. Our opinion of The Old Republic, formed over two solid days of playing, is that it’s one of the most boring titles we’ve ever had to endure. It’s plain and staid and deathly dull. It’s both exactly the same as every other MMO we've played, but at the same time so much worse because it promises so much more.

Harsh.

Not really dispelling any of those concerns about "Kill 10 rats" with pretty voiceovers included, is it?

[Ratman_tf]

http://www.bit-tech.net/gaming/pc/2011/04/29/star-wars-the-old-republic-preview/1

Bioware has made a lot of noise about how it has infused a series of deep, immersive, epic stories into its upcoming long-ago and far-away MMO – and how those stories set The Old Republic apart from any other MMO. The stories that The Old Republic tell will keep players engaged and involved in a genre which all too often comes down to collecting nerf livers and skipping dialog text.

Well, supposedly, anyway. Our opinion of The Old Republic, formed over two solid days of playing, is that it’s one of the most boring titles we’ve ever had to endure. It’s plain and staid and deathly dull. It’s both exactly the same as every other MMO we've played, but at the same time so much worse because it promises so much more.

Harsh.

Not really dispelling any of those concerns about "Kill 10 rats" with pretty voiceovers included, is it?

I dunno if the guy is being harsh just to make a zinging review, but it doesn't sound like the quest and voiceovers are that pretty either.

[tmp]

Given the hyperbole of "exactly the same as every other MMO" it'd seem to be at least partially the former.

[Lucas]

There is a thread (49 pages as I write this) on the official forums talking about the above mentioned "preview":

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=308365


"Damage Control" post by Stephen Reid, TOR Community Manager:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=6242267#edit6242267

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

A couple of things that might confuse in this review; while the reviewer played the game over a period of 48 hours, they didn't play for 48 hours. (If they did, they'd have gotten a lot further in the game...!)

Second, Origin Worlds are indeed a different sort of experience from the rest of The Old Republic. Essentially an introduction to the game, they focus quite heavily on story, and on getting you used to the pace of how the game plays. Game mechanics are relatively light, without the introduction of more complex concepts such as Advanced Classes, Crew Skills, and so on. In fact, your first Companion Character is really the first new 'system' you deal with on an Origin World.

Third, your story mileage may vary. As everyone in the studio plays the game a lot, we talk constantly about it, and what comes up very often is of course the story involved. We compare quests, talk about the choices we made, and often just ask each other "Have you gotten to the bit when..." Just like a great book or TV series (as we feel 'longer' than a movie), there are generally 'moments' people enjoy in most stories.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Ok I'm a genius I just figured out this whole thing.  The people at SWTOR think their story is awesome, in depth and a work of art and you know what? I bet you the same thing was said by blizzard employees when making wow. The problem lies with how well even the best stories translate to diku mmo's. you lose something so that when people start playing this awesome stories, it just turns into kill 5 X, collect 10 Y

[Malakili]

Ok I'm a genius I just figured out this whole thing.  The people at SWTOR think their story is awesome, in depth and a work of art and you know what? I bet you the same thing was said by blizzard employees when making wow. The problem lies with how well even the best stories translate to diku mmo's. you lose something so that when people start playing this awesome stories, it just turns into kill 5 X, collect 10 Y

The other problem, in my opinion, is that people like to do the same content as other people in an MMO.  I meant to post this the other day but I guess I never did.  What I mean to say is, even if you enjoy playing solo, i really think that a lot of MMO players like the fact that they are doing stuff that is also being done by the larger population.   This means that in a game with any kind of non trivial power curve, its max level content that is going to matter.  No matter how well crafted the leveling stuff is, its just not going to feel the same as doing the content that is relevant, exciting, what other people are doing, etc.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I wouldn't say that is entirely true. One of the things that kept me playing wow for so long was that the levelling experience was an enjoyable one. I couldn't even imagine making another character in something like rift or warhammer.

[Merusk]

Blizzard never thought they were making an interacvtive story with Wow. They kenw they were making a ding-grats leveling box and chose to remove the suck of previous iterations with the initial product.   Come LK and Cata, they did try to tell more of a story, but maintained that leveling box and knew it.  That allowed them to craft it a little better, imo, but at a small detriment to the prior openess.  See the complaints about how WOTLK to a small extent and Cata to a much larger one felt "on rails" and funneled.

Swtor devs, however, have said since day one "this isn't a leveling box."  BUT, they promised, it would be a wonderful interactive story where your choices mattered! That's why their game is going to be so very, very disappointing.

[Ratman_tf]

See also: Anarchy Online's claim to this big overarching storyline, that turned out to be some white noise in the background while everyone ran instances for loot and xp.

[Amaron]

http://www.bit-tech.net/gaming/pc/2011/04/29/star-wars-the-old-republic-preview/1

Harsh.

Really to be fair it sounds like this guy doesn't like MMO's very much.   Almost sounds like he's mad that it didn't feel like a single player game after all.   I'm worried about what he said about some of the story though.   If the story is bland then the whole thing is going to be pointless.

[Riggswolfe]

http://www.bit-tech.net/gaming/pc/2011/04/29/star-wars-the-old-republic-preview/1

Harsh.

Really to be fair it sounds like this guy doesn't like MMO's very much.   Almost sounds like he's mad that it didn't feel like a single player game after all.   I'm worried about what he said about some of the story though.   If the story is bland then the whole thing is going to be pointless.

The part I worry about is something he said in the comments when one of the posters said somthing to the effect of most of the other previews have been positive. He said that he was surprised because most of the other journalists seemed unimpressed as well. Which means A) He's full of shit or B) the others had to write a positive preview for some reason. The cynical side of me leans towards B. The part of me that wants this to be cool hopes for A.

[Simond]

http://www.bit-tech.net/gaming/pc/2011/04/29/star-wars-the-old-republic-preview/1

Harsh.

Really to be fair it sounds like this guy doesn't like MMO's very much.   Almost sounds like he's mad that it didn't feel like a single player game after all.   I'm worried about what he said about some of the story though.   If the story is bland then the whole thing is going to be pointless.

They liked Rift, so I agree that it's slanted more along the lines of the "Bioware promised a multiplayer version of their singleplayer RPGs, but have instead delivered WoW-In-Space" rather than just just "hates MMOs".

[Malakili]

I wouldn't say that is entirely true. One of the things that kept me playing wow for so long was that the levelling experience was an enjoyable one. I couldn't even imagine making another character in something like rift or warhammer.

I'm not denying that people play for those reasons as well, but I DO think that it helps to explain the desire to push through leveling content as quickly as possible, even among those players who aren't necessarily going to be running heroics or raids immediately. We've all heard or said "the real game starts at max level" before, and the reality is that for the huge majority of MMOs that is true, and players know it.

[tmp]

They liked Rift

That's a different reviewer, though.

[UnSub]

B) the others had to write a positive preview for some reason.

You write a positive preview or else you don't get invited back to the table. It's as simple as that.

If doubts exist, you gloss over them with "It is still beta / unlaunched / in development".

[Reg]

Ahh ok. So the one person that wrote a negative review is totally right and all the positive reviewers are just lying. Thanks for the info!

[Draegan]

I wouldn't say that is entirely true. One of the things that kept me playing wow for so long was that the levelling experience was an enjoyable one. I couldn't even imagine making another character in something like rift or warhammer.

I'm not denying that people play for those reasons as well, but I DO think that it helps to explain the desire to push through leveling content as quickly as possible, even among those players who aren't necessarily going to be running heroics or raids immediately. We've all heard or said "the real game starts at max level" before, and the reality is that for the huge majority of MMOs that is true, and players know it.

People will always race to the next level because there is another cool ability staring you in the face.  You just need 1000000 more xp.

Once a game take away abilities gained via ding grats and some how organically rewards players abilities via deeds or story line mechanics, people will always race to the end. 

Fake edit:
I can't be UO or Darkfall style.  You also can not dole out abilities because a player used "Sword Attack 1" successfully 1000 times so now they get Sword Attack 2.  I think EVE is the closest game to doing a concept like this.  You can't rush to anything, you just play the (boring) game itself.

[Lantyssa]

Guild Wars...

[Amaron]

The part I worry about is something he said in the comments when one of the posters said somthing to the effect of most of the other previews have been positive. He said that he was surprised because most of the other journalists seemed unimpressed as well. Which means A) He's full of shit or B) the others had to write a positive preview for some reason. The cynical side of me leans towards B. The part of me that wants this to be cool hopes for A.

I doubt it's either of those.   If you work with user feedback long enough it becomes quickly apparent people have NO CLUE on how to judge majority opinion.   They simply look at the small group of people they associate with and assume that group is representative somehow.  Plus it's seems very unlikely for a preview to seem unimpressive to a majority of journalists.  The whole reason companies allow such a preview is because they've got it all setup to impress.

Really though lines like this:

The first problem is that none of the story mechanics that Bioware is so keen to talk about genuinely change the shape of the game away from the now-standard MMO template.

I can't really take this guy totally seriously.   Why was it supposed to change the shape of the MMO template while leveling? Hell I HATE diku but after cataclysm leveling in WoW is a lot of fun (outside the unupdated BC+Wrath stuff).   The whole article reeks of him having some sort of weird expectations that got let down.    That doesn't invalidate all his observations of course.


I just noticed this nice tidbit from the author in the comments:

I haven't played a huge number of MMOs, no. I was into City of Heroes for a while and played Lord of the Rings: Online when that first came out, as well as sinking a couple of dozen hours into WoW over the years.

 

[Nebu]

I'd say that the negative review is caused by the same things that many of us here suffer.  1) The reviewer's expectations were very high and 2) the reviewer is probably burnt out on MMO's.  Reading the Rift forums has been an education with regard to this.  The MMO market is a mixture of new customers, relatively new customers, and jaded MMO vets.  Any developer will have the impossible task of trying to please them all... and likely fail.   

[Rendakor]

It's not MMO burnout according to the quote Amaron just pulled.

[Lantyssa]

The newbie MMO player is the one you want to impress the most.

[Amaron]

The newbie MMO player is the one you want to impress the most.

I don't think he really counts as a newbie though does he?  Some people just don't like MMO's. 

[Merusk]

The first problem is that none of the story mechanics that Bioware is so keen to talk about genuinely change the shape of the game away from the now-standard MMO template.

I can't really take this guy totally seriously.   Why was it supposed to change the shape of the MMO template while leveling? Hell I HATE diku but after cataclysm leveling in WoW is a lot of fun (outside the unupdated BC+Wrath stuff).   The whole article reeks of him having some sort of weird expectations that got let down.    That doesn't invalidate all his observations of course.
[/quote]

It was supposed to change the shape because Bioware said it would be more like a traditional Bioware game than an MMO.  If he thought that meant leveling was going away, yeah, his mistake.  He forgot the other three pillars in the many "Four Pillars of game design" article like this one that came out two and a half years ago.  Progression means leveling in CRPGs, be it skill levels or level #'s, after all. 

However, Bioware hyped it as different, so if it's not they have only themselves to blame when folks are disappointed.

[tmp]

It was supposed to change the shape because Bioware said it would be more like a traditional Bioware game than an MMO.  If he thought that meant leveling was going away, yeah, his mistake.

Indeed (and this is no green) i have no idea why anyone would expect leveling to go away in a game that's more like single-player RPG. It's not like single-player RPGs don't have that particular component as one of their pillars, too.