SWTOR

[Malakili]

To use Koyaha's example, if a guild raids 7-11, that means I will never raid with them. Because I have an hour a night I can reliably say I could be online, because literally everything in life takes priority over gaming. I like gaming, but I don't see why I need to make it a priority over real-life activities to accomplish anything. It's a ludicrous idea driven by these trolls who feel the stuff they 'earn' is somehow diminished if I can actually get the same loots. The entire idea of forced raiding and grouping is bizarre to me. If you enjoy raiding, raid. If you enjoy grouping, group. If you don't, well fuck off, enjoy your peasant hat, 3rd class citizen. Dead horse, but after all this time it still boggles the mind that people equate mmo with 'must group' rather than 'shared online world'.

I guess I just consider gaming as "real life" activity.   I prioritize as high as say, going out for the evening, if I want to.  Yes, I don't have the time to do much hobby-wise these days anyway, but gaming certainly gets as high a priority as any of them.  I'm not going to be raiding 7-11 ever again I'd imagine, but that doesn't mean I can't understand why someone WOULD decide that something they want to do.

 As for the loot thing, I don't particularly feel strongly either way about it.  I think that if you COULD get exactly the same loot, that raiding and retention would both fall though.  Why?  Because a hell of a lot of people would solo their top end loot within a week and then quit until the next bit was given out.  If it was time locked like raiding, I suspect people would quit because they only played the few hours a week solo they needed to complete that stuff and then they'd feel that wasn't enough to justify their subscription fee.

[Sky]

I think there is a market bigger than people who will solo through all game content in a week if allowed.

As I said, there is a plethora of options for those types. I'd like to see something that doesn't seek retention through forcing people into activities they otherwise wouldn't engage in.

[Malakili]

I I'd like to see something that doesn't seek retention through forcing people into activities they otherwise wouldn't engage in.

Is there any other reliable way to retention? I might go as far as to say that retention is practically defined by keeping people playing that want to quit.  Unless your game is a rare 1 in 10,000 that people play over the long term just because the game itself is actually fun to play - Counter Strike, Team Fortress, Tribes, and so forth, you're out of luck.  And none of those games charge people monthly for the privilege.  If your business model requires people pay you monthly, are you going to rely on designing a brilliant/unique mechanic that keeps people coming back for more all the time, or are you going to try and create a system of rewards that keeps the pleasure center of people's brains seeking more shinies?

I mean, I don't disagree with you in principle, I really don't.  There is a reason my MMO play has really trailed off and I've been playing other genres more and more over the past 3 years instead. 

[Sky]

I don't disagree with myself, either! I mean, I know WHY they do it. I just don't understand why anyone who is not a developer is defending it as a good gameplay decision. If there isn't retention built in (via community or player interactions), it's probably not a good game for a subscription model. And there are better ways for player interaction and community than walling off the phat lewtz behind a wall to keep casual players out.

Look at the community of games like UO and SWG and their crafting communities/systems and sales mechanisms. Physical storefronts that people could take ownership of and design and decorate, versus a single faceless window. Even EQ2 allowed you to visit the actual sales chest you were buying from, getting to see some cool locations (and save a few bucks).

[Ratman_tf]

Look at the community of games like UO and SWG and their crafting communities/systems and sales mechanisms. Physical storefronts that people could take ownership of and design and decorate, versus a single faceless window. Even EQ2 allowed you to visit the actual sales chest you were buying from, getting to see some cool locations (and save a few bucks).

I want my shit nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow!

[Chimpy]

What alternative? 

See where I'm going there? What game doesn't put in ridiculous, unimaginative, repetitive, dick-grinding timesinks? It's usually even worse for solo players, a raid guild can just meet up and hit a dungeon for loot pinatas and in something like Rift you have to grind for hours for tokens, grind for faction, grind grind grind. You know we're in Bat Country when RAIDING is actually more casual gameplay than SOLOING.

Srsly.

I am not disagreeing with you, I am just saying that the only thing I ever see is either "WoW-on-rails loot pinata ding!" or a choice between McQuadian "Level loss death penalties, MUST group to accomplish anything genital mutilation" or Korean "HI, PLEASE KILL 44 million foozles (at a minute each) to advance 1/2000th of the way through a level" grindfactories.

I would love to see an alternative that is not one of those 2.5 ways of doing things. I have yet to see one though.

[Lucas]

This thread should really be preserved, maybe a "best of" done out of it   
-----

Anyway, some "damage control" is currently being undertaken on the official forums by the Devs on the topic of Companions in flashpoints/raid (or lack of thereof...Currently a two part topic, about 1500 posts or so). Post by Georg Zoeller, Principal Lead Combat Designer:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=5714363#edit5714363

You guys are again getting way ahead of yourself.

There are still companions in the game, we still think they are important, we are still looking at their role in endgame and we are, as James mentioned in the same sentence that now has everyone terribly excited, actively testing them.

We appreciate all your feedback - pros and cons - in this matter, but we would like to respectfully ask that you keep it civil with each other and don't get too far off track (no, we are not reducing the number of companions, no, companions are still an integral part of your character, no, we haven't said that there is no endgame content at all for companions).

We'll have further details on this topic as we conclude our tests on the matter and are confident that the decisions we make are final for launch.

Also, Stephen Reid (current TOR Community Manager) replies to a post in a topic called "Bioware letting the raiders and 'purists" dictate game direction?" (bold is mine...Speculation?)

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=5724712#edit5724712

The Flashpoint that was shown at PAX East was not endgame content, it was mid-level content (although you will find some Flashpoint content during endgame). We wanted to show off multiplayer content for the game. (BTW, we did multiple Q&As - you may not have read the answer I was referring to. I know James spoke to that exact question in one of them.)

There are a variety of endgame activities available, not all of which have been spoken about yet, but I think RPG/story fans will be happy.

[Paelos]

I simply don't believe anything they say. Actions are speaking louder at this point.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I swear, it's like you people don't realize 99% of what developers say is bullshit yet.

Wow, in space.

[Paelos]

I swear, it's like you people don't realize 99% of what developers say is bullshit yet.

Wow, in space.

[Fordel]

If it actually was WoW in space, it would be great.

[Margalis]

It sounds like companions are just a glorified crafting menu.

[UnSub]

It sounds like companions are just a glorified crafting menu.

They also serve as virtual friends who talk to you and do what you say.

[Venkman]

Is there any other reliable way to retention?

You can't retain for the sheer sake of it. Mostly companies focus on churn and balancing ARPU against resources. How many can they get at first and along the way versus how many will leave due to boredom/competition/whatever. That's for linear style games where the power curve and reward distribution are the measures.

Socioeconomic experiences like Eve are entirely different. It might as well be a different genre, a branch off of the shared persistent world platform, but a far different user experience.

Where a diku-inspired MMO (EQ1 through WoW to Rift) focused on small-group multiplayer gameplay, old-UO/old-SWG/Eve/ATiTD style games are way open-ended experiences that have a wide array of ways to live a virtual life.

What keeps a player in WoW is very different than what keeps a player in Eve. My opinion is it's the difference between a D&D-style shared experience of constant advancement vs the personalized virtual citizenry of a large heterogenous society. Or the old "game vs world" with more words :)

Nobody expects players to hang around forever, but why you can keep them depends on the underlying system. It's also impacted more recently by how many MMO conventions of seeped into other genres (scaffolded dinggratz in Black Ops, this-months-*ville, Tiny Wings, etc).

Most gamers are not raiders any more than they're founding galactic banks or in the top echelon of meta-world guilds. Most gamers don't want that level of coordination in the game, much less the amount of coordination outside the game. But those that do are the most vocal alpha/top-of-pyramid players in the game, so are as important to the player ecosystem as the rabble that come for a month, leave and forget they're getting billed for months beyond. You can keep the alpha players through timely release of new content and by listening to their feedback. They're not biggest source of revenue, but they among the most reliable.

But you can't focus solely on them or you end up excluding a lot of potential revenue.

[AutomaticZen]

I can at the very least say the PAX East demo was prettier than the PAX Prime demo.

[Lucas]

Community Q&A on Flashpoints (starts toward the end of the link listed below) :

http://www.swtor.com/news/news-article/20110318

Each month we take time to answer some of the community’s questions about Star Wars: The Old Republic. If you have a question about one of the eight classes in The Old Republic, please post it in the new Community Q&A thread in the forums. We’ll be gathering questions from that thread on March 25, so be sure to ask your question before that date.

Today, World Designer Jesse Sky has answers to some of your questions about Flashpoints:
------------------------


Q: Will Flashpoint for Republic and Empire ever meet? - Sirious_Nora

A: Certain Flashpoints, especially at the end game, are available to both factions. They represent threats so large that neither the Republic nor the Empire can afford to ignore them. Each side has its own quest givers, dialogue and motivations, though, so what you get are two very different looks at the same story.


Q: Are you thinking of introducing side-missions in Flashpoints where a specific class will be required to initiate/complete? - KrumStrashnii

A: We have considered adding some optional objectives that require certain classes or Crew Skills to complete. Of course, it’s a balancing act – how cool can you make it without forcing players to bring that ability set along every time? I’m interested in hearing what the community thinks; let us know your thoughts on the forums!


Q: How many hours of game time must players invest on average before their first Flashpoint is available to play with friends? - Fortunetek

A: You’ll encounter your first Flashpoint after your Origin World – how long you take to complete that is up to you, really. By this time, you’ll be familiar enough with your class to feel confident taking on content that requires a group.

Q: Are Flashpoints linear or can you go multiple routes without ruining the storytelling part? - Flopi

A: Your main objectives in a Flashpoint follow a clear path, except in cases where your story choices modify that path. We use bonus objectives to introduce elements of non-linearity, and we try to place surprises off the beaten path.


Q: How will loot be distributed in Flashpoints? - Trishot

A: Loot is distributed according to need/greed rules with a quality threshold set by the group leader. Players will also accumulate commendations that can be traded for special gear.

Q: Will it be possible to play a Flashpoint with fewer than four players, whether it's one, two, or three? - Mark

A: For early Flashpoints, you can certainly try, but as you get deeper into the game, you will need a full group of four players to have a reasonable chance of surviving the challenges in Flashpoints.


Q: How intricately will the boss fights in Flashpoints be scripted? A typical example would be nice. – Sungil

A: Bosses are scripted to match the fiction and the environments. They change phases and require players to think on their feet. Most of all they require coordination. An example off the top of my head is an Imperial officer who jumps behind cover and calls in a squad of soldiers with jetpacks. He then spends one stage of the fight sniping you and sending traps at you while his men arrive in waves.

Q: Will the choices a group makes (e.g. chosen dialogues, fight tactics, whether you killed enemies or not) have an impact on loot amount and quality at the end of a Flashpoint? - Elvasan

A: If your group decides to complete optional objectives, you will absolutely reap better rewards. Some of your story choices may result in different loot, but we never want group leaders enforcing story decisions or bailing out halfway because the ‘wrong’ decision was made, so we avoid associating key rewards with story choices. We want you to be free to roleplay.

Q: How do you intend to make replaying Flashpoints interesting (other than using diverse loot tables) in order to encourage group play and to not have Flashpoints deteriorate into "farm areas" typical of other games in the genre? - TheOrigin

A: From a gameplay perspective, we try to keep the combat mechanics dynamic and the pacing strong. We’ve discussed adding elements that differ from one session to the next, but our top priority is offering a diverse array of Flashpoints at launch. As a BioWare fan, I find the stories alone engaging enough to repeat – especially with the multiplayer conversation system.

Q: How exactly will class roles inside Flashpoints work? Will it be like in WoW or similar systems with fix systems, in which only damage dealer can deal damage, in which only tanks can block and only healer can heal? - Sarnave

A: This is an area where we try to distinguish Flashpoints from dungeons. While boss fights often require traditional tank and healer roles, some sections of Flashpoints are paced in such a way that healers can switch into damage roles and tanks can get a bit more reckless.

Q: Do mobs respawn in a Flashpoint after a certain time, or do they "stay" dead? - MilOuZ

A: Enemies do not respawn in Flashpoints. The story is too tightly focused for respawning enemies to make sense, and it would have undesirable gameplay consequences.

Q: Are classes adaptable enough in order to complete a Flashpoint with a any group (e.g. 4 Jedi Consulars, possibly with the help of certain companions)? - Ashlack, Akbar

A: You will need a well-balanced group to complete a Flashpoint. You’ll find some very unique and powerful combinations of Advanced Classes, but if you stack several players with the same role, you’re not likely to fare well.


Q: What happens in Flashpoints in case of a wipe in terms of scenario? Do we have to replay the Flashpoint story from the beginning? - Askanir

A: If your group wipes, you’ll just need to run back from your most recent objective. You will not lose any story progress unless your group leaves the instance and lets its timer expire.

Q: When we reach max level, will it be possible to solo low-level Flashpoints? - Yanis Micropoulos

This is something that we are looking into with in-game testing. A very skilled player probably could.

[Arrrgh]

Will they have a tank shortage?

[Lakov_Sanite]

"Are flashpoints the same as dungeons in any other MMO?"

"Yes"

[Zetor]

Actually, that makes me think flashpoints are going to be like GW missions, which sort of makes sense.

edit: is there dual/triple/quadruple/etc spec, or is johnny dps going to be screwed?

[Lucas]

Yes, I think they will be similar to GW missions and also Tabula Rasa flashpoints (they were called so in that game too), like I wrote in a previous post.

For example, in TR I found myself repeating those flashpoints and enjoying them, no matter if I already knew the background story and the twist 'n turns while doing them,  because they were actually well tailored and executed. The atmosphere, environment and design was very well done, not requiring any particular "whack-a-mole" tactic by any class, so you could actually sit back and get immersed in the plot, akin to a single player game. Hopefully it will be the same in TOR.

Yes, it's of course a general rule for any MMO, but even more in TOR, it seems to me that the experience will *greatly* differ whenever you are playing with a small group of friends or with a PUG, especially considering the other "multiplayer dialog" feature.

[Samprimary]

I love seeing the last post in this thread be by "Lucas." I keep opening it up expecting it to be the actual george lucas saying 'playable races now include ewoks and gungans'

[Lucas]

 

I love seeing the last post in this thread be by "Lucas." I keep opening it up expecting it to be the actual george lucas saying 'playable races now include ewoks and gungans'

[Lakov_Sanite]

So the difference between a flashpoint and a dungeon is that flashpoints are faster/easier? Not really a difference, just a slider setting and all it sounds like is they are saying trash will "probably" be easier and that there will still be hard boss fights with the same tank/heal/dps mechanics needed to win.

 So yeah...maybe the starter flashpoints have easy trash you can mow through with four dps but who honestly think it'll stay that way at mid/max level?

[Lantyssa]

Guild Wars missions I can progress through by myself or with a group though.

[Spiff]

So yeah...maybe the starter flashpoints have easy trash you can mow through with four dps but who honestly think it'll stay that way at mid/max level?

A: You will need a well-balanced group to complete a Flashpoint ..., but if you stack several players with the same role, you’re not likely to fare well.

Can't imagine the "yes, it's a diku with everything that entails" surprises anyone any more and it doesn't necessarily disappoint me even, at least they won't piss up my Star Wars with well meant attempts 'to push the genre'.

I am however furiously trying to get a few mates excited, 'cause if I don't have a preset group for this my stay in a galaxy far far away will be very very short this time I fear.
It's screaming "Don't PuG me!".

[Shrike]

Personally, I hope they're channeling CoX TF/SF missions, but without the sucktastic elements that those had. Aside from being overly long with way too much trash, some of those were quite fun and you generally could dance with who you brung--assuming someone could actually tank to some degree (i.e. lockdown mobs from running wild).

Now the tank shortage...heh, you never saw this in EQ, it's almost entirely confined to WoW, because that roll actually sucks the way they've implemented it. If subclasses like Sith juggernauts, Jedi guardians or whathaveyou actually have fun mechanics and you're not penalized for stacking them, then there'll be no issue. In EQ (of whatever vintage) having SKs and pallies in the same party always worked well. Just need more of that and not the hypertuned horseshit of WoW instances. Same thing with CoX: MMs and bruisers worked well together villain-side and multiple tankers weren't usualy an issue blue-side--especially with the continuing fascination of heros trying to make tanks scrappers at every opportunity.

[Sky]

I am however furiously trying to get a few mates excited, 'cause if I don't have a preset group for this my stay in a galaxy far far away will be very very short this time I fear.
It's screaming "Don't PuG me!".

This is one of my core concerns, especially with the panda talk about GW. Bat Country Imperial Local f13 will be together for all of a month. After that, it will be EQ2 all over again, with me doing maybe two raids in four years and no dungeons.

I really want to like TOR, since I like KotOR and story-driven games. But so far GW2 keeps looking like the only game in the mmospace gunning for my attention for more than the free month (and not even that if I get my fill in testing).

[SnakeCharmer]

What time is your normal playtime, Sky?

[Amaron]

I haven't been following it too much (I hate getting overhyped) but if they nerf the companions in group content that's going to pretty much be massive fail.   You can't do storyline content with 3 other people.   There's always some pea-brained moron who yells at you to skip the cut-scenes or whatever.     Story without characters is pretty boring too.

[Velorath]

I haven't been following it too much (I hate getting overhyped) but if they nerf the companions in group content that's going to pretty much be massive fail.   You can't do storyline content with 3 other people.   There's always some pea-brained moron who yells at you to skip the cut-scenes or whatever.     Story without characters is pretty boring too.

From what I gather, it would be removing companions from SWTOR's equivalent of dungeons and raids.  Somebody correct me if they've said otherwise, but quests, presumably including those for Class storylines would still allow you to use companions.

[Amaron]

From what I gather, it would be removing companions from SWTOR's equivalent of dungeons and raids.  Somebody correct me if they've said otherwise, but quests, presumably including those for Class storylines would still allow you to use companions.

I guess I can't really see how they'll do companions in a non instanced setting.   My instinct is that flashpoints are the best place for companions in the first place.   Surely not heroic instances but anything below near max level for sure.

[Paelos]

Yeah removing the companions takes this from fun story driven game where companions fill in the hard to find specializations and turns it into every other MMOG in history.

[Velorath]

From what I gather, it would be removing companions from SWTOR's equivalent of dungeons and raids.  Somebody correct me if they've said otherwise, but quests, presumably including those for Class storylines would still allow you to use companions.

I guess I can't really see how they'll do companions in a non instanced setting.   My instinct is that flashpoints are the best place for companions in the first place.   Surely not heroic instances but anything below near max level for sure.

I would assume (but again, I don't know) that class quests would be in instanced settings.  I'm not really sure how much of this game is instanced overall, especially when it comes to regular non-class specific quests.  I don't know if they have any specific companion related story quests either (by which I mean something like most of Bioware's other games have where each of your companions usually have some personal task they need done).  Story-wise, I actually think that Flashpoints, due to their repeatable nature would be one of the least interesting aspects of the story for companions to get involved in.

I don't think they should be removed from Flashpoints mind you.  I think if healing was so dull that everybody just used companions as their heal-bot's, that suggests the solution should really be to find a way to make being a healer more fun.

[voblat]

Yeah removing the companions takes this from fun story driven game where companions fill in the hard to find specializations and turns it into every other MMOG in history.

Yep.

'Looking for smuggler - healer build '

[Paelos]

I don't think they should be removed from Flashpoints mind you.  I think if healing was so dull that everybody just used companions as their heal-bot's, that suggests the solution should really be to find a way to make being a healer more fun.

Or start giving everyone self healing abilities and cut out the stupidity for once.