SWTOR

[Velorath]

Worse yet, every MMO since WoW has been a derivative, less-polished attempt to do what Blizzard had already done.

I've heard people say this kinda thing before, and I don't really agree with it unless all it takes for you to consider something WoW derivative is for quest givers to have something like an ! over their head.  WAR was a less polished attempt at what Mythic had done with their last game.  AOC was likewise supposed to have a heavy PVP focus, as well as more story and more action-oriented combat.  FFXIV isn't derivative of anything from the last decade.  Champions and Star Trek felt more derivative of CoH than WoW.  In fact, the common thread all these games have is that they were all made by developers who were releasing MMO's before WoW ever came out.

I find people have taken to complaining about MMOs copying WoW when what they really mean is "it's another diku." I assume it's because WoW is the biggest one.

Really I find the "it's another diku" complaint about many MMORPG's to be just as bad.  It's just a dull way some posters have of reminding us how jaded they are without actually having to come up with specifics about what they don't like.  There's nothing inherently wrong with diku's and to me, hanging out in an MMO forum complaining about yet another diku coming out is like hanging out in an FPS forum complaining about how tired they are of picking up guns, firing with the left mouse button, aiming for headshots, etc...  It's more a reflection of the poster than it is of the game.  Maybe some people here wouldn't be so sick of the same old thing if they hadn't been obsessing over every bit of pre-release information, every beta, and every launch of every fucking MMO release for the past decade, even the ones they decided they were going to hate from the earliest bits of information.

[Simond]

You know, if you take Surlyboi's post and replace "soul" with "tedium" it's actually correct.

[Surlyboi]

Please. WoW's as tedious as it gets.

[Azuredream]

Are you suggesting WoW isn't any less tedious than EQ was?

[Malakili]

Worse yet, every MMO since WoW has been a derivative, less-polished attempt to do what Blizzard had already done.

I've heard people say this kinda thing before, and I don't really agree with it unless all it takes for you to consider something WoW derivative is for quest givers to have something like an ! over their head.  WAR was a less polished attempt at what Mythic had done with their last game.  AOC was likewise supposed to have a heavy PVP focus, as well as more story and more action-oriented combat.  FFXIV isn't derivative of anything from the last decade.  Champions and Star Trek felt more derivative of CoH than WoW.  In fact, the common thread all these games have is that they were all made by developers who were releasing MMO's before WoW ever came out.

I find people have taken to complaining about MMOs copying WoW when what they really mean is "it's another diku." I assume it's because WoW is the biggest one.

Really I find the "it's another diku" complaint about many MMORPG's to be just as bad.  It's just a dull way some posters have of reminding us how jaded they are without actually having to come up with specifics about what they don't like.  There's nothing inherently wrong with diku's and to me, hanging out in an MMO forum complaining about yet another diku coming out is like hanging out in an FPS forum complaining about how tired they are of picking up guns, firing with the left mouse button, aiming for headshots, etc...  It's more a reflection of the poster than it is of the game.  Maybe some people here wouldn't be so sick of the same old thing if they hadn't been obsessing over every bit of pre-release information, every beta, and every launch of every fucking MMO release for the past decade, even the ones they decided they were going to hate from the earliest bits of information.

I think the real problem is that the slightly older generation of gamers (which I think are more represented on this board), are just trying to recapture the feeling they got when playing their first MMOs a decade ago, and it just isn't happening.  Its sort of a search for something novel and new the way it used to feel, but the problem it isn't just the game that matters in that regard, but also the player.  Even when a game is brand new at this point, the shiny wears off quick because before you know if you've boiled down all the game mechanics to be basically similar to what you've been doing for years, maybe with a slightly twist or two.

I think thats the main source of my TOR hate.  What I really want its a Star Wars game that is going to make me love the genre again.  Insofar as its really apparent this isn't going to be that game, it leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth.   In the end though, I think MMORPGs are just really a thing of the past for me in general, and my interest in them is sort of a relic.  Occasionally a project tickles me in just the right way, but a heavy dose of reality sets in pretty fast most of the time.  

[Arthur_Parker]

Please. WoW's as tedious as it gets.

Something more tedious would be constantly banging on the same subject, we get it, you liked soulful EQ, you feel betrayed because WoW is not EQ.  The reason WoW is not EQ is because Blizzard make wildly popular games.  WoW is a brilliant game, I have zero desire to play it but millions of people do.  When running a race and you get lapped twenty times, maybe it's time to admit the other guy is pretty successful at choosing not to wear clogs.

[SnakeCharmer]

Missing the point, much?

Besides, I'll be very surprised if Surlyboi actually liked EQ.

[Rendakor]

So did you miss it a page ago where he was professing his love for EQ and pre-NGE SWG? Or are you just trolling?

[Arthur_Parker]

Nobody at Blizzard could have made EQ anyway.  They would have got to the stage of adding the first boring bit, day one I imagine, and then despite all their best efforts, just plain fuck it up and add some fun by accident.

[Khaldun]

I think the "it's just another diku" idea reflects a sense on the part of older MMO players that they expected the form to evolve towards something more like a "world" over time, to be less controlled, on-the-rails, to have more spontaneity and randomness. Look back and I think you'll see that many people's "that's so cool" moments were about that feeling that you'd stumbled into a living, breathing world where you weren't certain what would happen next. Bartle-type explorers and killers I think were especially drawn to that. Socializers, on the other hand, probably have stayed pretty satisfied with improved dikus on the whole, and WoW especially has retrained a lot of us to be more socializers than we once were. It's certainly my main satisfaction with the game still: the people I know and play with. Achievers? Well, they like the improved hamster wheel, but bleeding-edge achievers probably don't like the current design paradigm much either (now that it's tuned to provisioning most players that sense of achievement.)

I'm still trying to decide what killed "world-like" MMO design the most: the fearfulness and timidity of developers and money hats, the intrinsic technical challenges involved in making them, or some of the improbable or unreal expectations of players interested in that style of MMO.

[Kageru]

SOE only made EQ accidentally because they weren't being sufficiently managed at the time. The first couple of expansions made a fantasy world and that was enough because the genre was so new (and online gaming in general), plus it was clear the developers loved crafting this world. Long before WoW came out SOE realised there was money to be had and EQ was transforming into a linear raiding / progression / expansion / treadmill game.

I mean I'll happily admit the ring war was one of the coolest things I've ever seen and the world was so stupidly large some zones had a community. But by the time they were coming up with shit like LDoN, PoP and Ykesha I was happy to flee the wreckage. Though I'm still in the same guild and the number of people eternally trying to recover that feeling is a bit sad.

[Lantyssa]

I'm still trying to decide what killed "world-like" MMO design the most: the fearfulness and timidity of developers and money hats, the intrinsic technical challenges involved in making them, or some of the improbable or unreal expectations of players interested in that style of MMO.

All of them play a roll, but mainly money hats.  EQ was King.  WoW dethroned it.  More worldly designs either over-stepped their capabilities or decided to chase the money hats.

UO is still around but looked dated even when it came out.  SWG caved.  Guild Wars doesn't seem to hold people and has design points which put it outside typical MMOs.  WISH folded in beta.  Fallen Earth was a good attempt, but has small studio problems and their targeting tried to reinvent FPS controls to their detriment.  What else has their been?  Anything I can think of with a good to passing world design had a massive level-based system blocking character development.  The people drawn to a World mostly aren't interested in character development through Ding Gratz.

[Surlyboi]

Missing the point, much?

Besides, I'll be very surprised if Surlyboi actually liked EQ.

I actually did like EQ. Partially for the newness of it, partially because of the, as kageru rightly put it, "accidental" nature of the whole project and partiallt because of the community of people that came out of it for me. Velious probably being the high point. That said, it was fun because it was accidental. They had no idea what the fuck they were doing half the time and it it showed. It was fun despite itself. (That died right after Luclin, but hey it was a fun ride for a while there.) WoW's fun feels manufactured. From the cartoony, eye-catching graphics to the, "Hey look! I'm a celebrity and I play WoW" endorsements. Very simply, WoW to me is like those bad beer commercials where the schmoes who would never get laid in a million years without a sufficient outlay of cash are suddenly surrounded by babes in hot tubs because they opened a can of Bud. It all feels like it was designed largely with the help of focus groups.

And yeah, AP, you don't get it. I don't begrudge WoW for being successful, more power to Blizzard for making a popular game. I just don't like it, and I tried really, really hard to like it because the girl I was dating at the time was really into it, it just doesn't do it for me.

And lastly, Lant has a great point about world-y games. The only one that's even close to thriving is EVE. And if you play that the way it's "meant" to be played, it's like banging your dangly bits in the door.

[DraconianOne]

I just don't like it, and I tried really, really hard to like it because the girl I was dating at the time was really into it, it just doesn't do it for me.

There's a lesson here. If only I could work out what it was...

[Dtrain]

SWG caved.

Caved after performing far far under expectations. I'd say the problem was the initial design, which started down a road of being different (or at least UO2 in spaaaaaace,) but did not satisfy a lot of the other expectations of the gaming public. Further, the overall cohesion of the design and the iterative tuning necessary to achieve that cohesion got away from them in the mad rush to release.

So - yeah, "all of those things" is pretty much right on the money. =)

[Paelos]

Get back on topic, nutjobs.

So far, looking at the votes, Jedi Sage is in a landslide for the name change from Jedi Wizard.

[Arthur_Parker]

And yeah, AP, you don't get it. I don't begrudge WoW for being successful, more power to Blizzard for making a popular game. I just don't like it, and I tried really, really hard to like it because the girl I was dating at the time was really into it, it just doesn't do it for me.

SWTOR thread.  Nobody cares, I don't like WoW either, slap me if I ever start going on about it outside a WoW thread.

[Surlyboi]

I'll stop when everyone else stops dragging it into the conversation.

And Drac, the lesson is, don't date your volleyball teammates.

Oh shit...

[Cyrrex]

And Drac, the lesson is, don't date your volleyball teammates.

It actually sounds like a grand idea.  I think we've had this conversation before.

[tmp]

So far, looking at the votes, Jedi Sage is in a landslide for the name change from Jedi Wizard.

I'm ok with that. Seer feels too specific (since seems to be name of one of class specializations) and Adept too generic. Sage remains as result of elimination and the 'profound wisdom' thing kinda fits with what these guys are supposed to be about.

[Sky]

Jedi Sage, Rosemary and Thyme.

[Nebu]

I don't care if it's called Jedi Pudding if it's fun.  People seem to invest way too much energy worrying about the wrong crap in a game.

[Paelos]

I don't care if it's called Jedi Pudding if it's fun.  People seem to invest way too much energy worrying about the wrong crap in a game.

Well if the game was live, I'd agree. Since it's still in development, I think letting the populace vote on names is probably a fun thing to do.

[Nebu]

Well if the game was live, I'd agree. Since it's still in development, I think letting the populace vote on names is probably a fun thing to do.

True.  A good marketing ploy if nothing else.

[DraconianOne]

True.  A good marketing ploy if nothing else.

A very good marketing ploy. "The company that listens to customer feedback even before the game is shipped. You hated the term 'Wizard' so we let you choose a new name!"

[Sky]

It's too bad. The Jedi wizard had such a supple wrist.

[Surlyboi]

Well played, sir.

It must be your sense of smell.

[Count Nerfedalot]

Did they ever say what was wrong with Jedi Wizard anyway?  It was, after all, the only one of the choices actually used in the movies in reference to Jedi that I can recall.  Did Lucas decide to retcon that out or something?

[UnSub]

Did they ever say what was wrong with Jedi Wizard anyway?  It was, after all, the only one of the choices actually used in the movies in reference to Jedi that I can recall.  Did Lucas decide to retcon that out or something?

Because fanbois get angry when you say the Force is magic.

[tmp]

Few people wanted to wear the robe and wizard hat.

[Khaldun]

Jedi Badass?

Jedi Wizard Cocksucker?

Jedi Gets-One-Shotted-by-Palpatine?

They're not giving the right choices out, evidently.

[Stabs]

Did they ever say what was wrong with Jedi Wizard anyway?  It was, after all, the only one of the choices actually used in the movies in reference to Jedi that I can recall.  Did Lucas decide to retcon that out or something?

Because fanbois get angry when you say the Force is magic.

I realise this is true but I'm a bit baffled at what else it could be? Science? Is that why they made up midichlorians? To prove the Force is sci fi, not fantasy?

I suppose people like scientific magic because it seems more available. In lore, no average Joe could be Gandalf - he's basically an angel. But all of us maybe have latent psychokinetic superpowers just waiting for the right trigger to activate them, right?

[Margalis]

Did they ever say what was wrong with Jedi Wizard anyway?

The game already suffers from being apparently WoW in space. Calling them Wizards breaks the illusion even more. At that point they might as well make Orcs and Trolls available races.

To me it's an indication of mindset. Calling it a wizard is about as generic and lazy as you can get. It behooves them to try to at least pretend they aren't just dressing up standard fantasy classes. Maybe the wizard plays nothing like wizards in other games - cool, then don't call it a wizard. Maybe it plays like a wizard in any other game - well at least put on a veneer of something different.

[Samprimary]

They used it only because Kenobi was called a 'crazy old wizard' and someone high up figured it would be an interesting visitation of canon. But it thematically does not fit for multiple reasons.

[DraconianOne]

They used it only because Kenobi was called a 'crazy old wizard' and someone high up figured it would be an interesting visitation of canon. But it thematically does not fit for multiple reasons.

Yeah, I always figured that it was used as a pejorative for to describe Ben an old man with white hair and beard who wears long robes who has strange powers and may, or may not, have a staff with a knob on the end. 

Still, following the logic that "it was in the movies as a reference to a character so it's alright to use it as a class name", I propose a petition to rename the smuggler Gunslinger to Nerfherder.