SWTOR

[Samprimary]

See, I think it would be pretty easy to use star wars' combat themes to balance the ranged classes and the melee classes in a fun new way. It doesn't even seem that hard. All the melee classes are force users. The better a force user you are, the more ably that translates into defense against ranged weapons, since it gives you the precognizance that allows you to use a lightsaber to deflect incoming attacks. The force has been used in video games for years as the whole 'range neutralizer' thing that translates perfectly to MMO's. Force rushes and force pull are essentially Charge and Death Grip. Jedi are also notorious disarmers. There's just so much to work with!

Personally, what I would do is make it so that force users have an inherent defensive mechanic separate from shields and HP. A quick-recharging, quick to deplete bar analogous to rogues' energy, the size of which is dependent upon your force attributes. It negates all damage before it is exhausted, so it has to be overwhelmed before you can start damaging the force user at range. It would match pretty perfectly with how force users generally work, and could be expanded upon to create workable balance mechanics between the Badass Normals and the force users as well as ranged v. melee in general.

of course this is all just wishful thinking. As usual. The game's probably a kitefest.

[Surlyboi]

Frankly, "Not being an unfun piece of grindy shit" would be ample innovation in the mmo market for a game not created by Blizzard.

Fixed that for ya.

[Simond]

No you didn't.

[Surlyboi]

Pretty much, yeah I did.

WoW is an unfun grindy piece of shit too. They just did a better job of covering it in shiny.

[ashrik]

As trendy and cool  as it is to hate on WoW and underestimate its strengths these days, it just seems silly to see it in the WoW-in-space thread.

[Shrike]

As trendy and cool  as it is to hate on WoW and underestimate its strengths these days, it just seems silly to see it in the WoW-in-space thread.

It's certainly trendy, but it's fucking stupid and I'm getting tired of seeing this crap on at least a half a dozen different websites every single day.

If you don't like the game, don't play it. Simple enough. We all have reasons for likes and dislikes, but when it gets to the level of neurosis, it begins to lose its charm. We're well past that level now. There're things about the game I don't like, but I still play it because I still have fun in it. Kinda bored at the moment, but I like my characters and enjoy seeing them do their thing even now.

Just as bad is the knee jerk bitching about ToR when we still don't know much about the game. I certainly have my doubts about it, but I won't know if I'll like it, hate it, or be willing to tolerate some annoying bits for really (or even moderately) cool stuff that might be in there.

[Surlyboi]

Then I must not be trendy because I've been hating it for almost six years now.

And I don't play it, haven't since the first year.

As for Old Republic, I'll give it the same chance I've given every other MMO I've played. If it sucks, I'll stop. Just like I did with WoW.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I don't like RTS games, I have tried believe me but for the life of me I just can't get into them. Some people don't like mmo's but it doesn't make them bad.  I feel like every forum needs a big sticky that reads "Just because you do not like something doesn't mean it sucks, get over yourself"

[Surlyboi]

Don't get me wrong. I loved EQ when it came out. Stuck with it for years. Would've stuck with SWG if they hadn't fucked it with the NGE. I don't dislike MMOs, I love them in theory. It's the execution I have a problem with. WoW is just a derivative yet polished version of what came before it. Worse yet, every MMO since WoW has been a derivative, less-polished attempt to do what Blizzard had already done.

[Rendakor]

You could try Darkfall.

[Sky]

Then I must not be trendy because I've been hating it for almost six years now.

And I don't play it, haven't since the first year.

Hey, me too! The bonus is that now every dev is ripping off WoW, so that game we don't like? Yeah, it's called the modern mmo.

Thanks, Blizztard.

[Velorath]

Worse yet, every MMO since WoW has been a derivative, less-polished attempt to do what Blizzard had already done.

I've heard people say this kinda thing before, and I don't really agree with it unless all it takes for you to consider something WoW derivative is for quest givers to have something like an ! over their head.  WAR was a less polished attempt at what Mythic had done with their last game.  AOC was likewise supposed to have a heavy PVP focus, as well as more story and more action-oriented combat.  FFXIV isn't derivative of anything from the last decade.  Champions and Star Trek felt more derivative of CoH than WoW.  In fact, the common thread all these games have is that they were all made by developers who were releasing MMO's before WoW ever came out.

[Nebu]

You may as well explain the popularity of McDonalds and Taco Bell.  Hell, impress me and explain White Castle's success or the sales of Hot Pockets.  Sorry, bad food analogies are all I've got today.

Things don't have to be great for mass popularity.  They just have to satisfy a want/need.  WoW seems to have found the carrot that fits the bill for mainstream gamers.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I like that people are already setting up wow to explain why swtor is going to suck. Personally I think it'll suck on it's own merits, kinda like FF14

[Paelos]

I like that people are already setting up wow to explain why swtor is going to suck. Personally I think it'll suck on it's own merits, kinda like FF14

Yeah, I'm approaching it from this angle. I think SWTOR will make it's own silly mistakes. #1 on my list is going to be ridiculously bland and generic combat, coupled with the transparent diku system fucking everyone over when nobody wants to heal.

Also, griefing. Lots of story griefing.

[Sjofn]

Worse yet, every MMO since WoW has been a derivative, less-polished attempt to do what Blizzard had already done.

I've heard people say this kinda thing before, and I don't really agree with it unless all it takes for you to consider something WoW derivative is for quest givers to have something like an ! over their head.  WAR was a less polished attempt at what Mythic had done with their last game.  AOC was likewise supposed to have a heavy PVP focus, as well as more story and more action-oriented combat.  FFXIV isn't derivative of anything from the last decade.  Champions and Star Trek felt more derivative of CoH than WoW.  In fact, the common thread all these games have is that they were all made by developers who were releasing MMO's before WoW ever came out.

I find people have taken to complaining about MMOs copying WoW when what they really mean is "it's another diku." I assume it's because WoW is the biggest one.

[sam, an eggplant]

diku system fucking everyone over when nobody wants to heal. (...) Also, griefing. Lots of story griefing.

Companions can heal and story areas are all instanced.

Now the first question is if companion healing is actually effective and viable for difficult content.

The second question is if group-required story quests can be griefed by someone in your group, forcing your jedi to go dark side or bang a wookie, or whatever.

We don't know the answers to either one, but they'e pretty dang obvious questions, so I wouldn't be surprised if the developers have at least considered their answers.

[Ingmar]

I believe personal rewards/consequences are determined by what you picked regardless of what the group as a whole picks as the outcome you see? I think I read something along those lines.

[Surlyboi]

You could try Darkfall.

I see what you did there.

[Simond]

Don't get me wrong. I loved EQ when it came out. Stuck with it for years. Would've stuck with SWG if they hadn't fucked it with the NGE. I don't dislike MMOs, I love them in theory. It's the execution I have a problem with. WoW is just a derivative yet polished version of what came before it. Worse yet, every MMO since WoW has been a derivative, less-polished attempt to do what Blizzard had already done.

So you liked EQ, acknowledge that WoW is a better take on EQ, and hate that WAR (etc) are worse that WoW...and that somehow adds up to "WoW sucks" in your world?

Yeah, the problem isn't WoW here.

[UnSub]

I believe personal rewards/consequences are determined by what you picked regardless of what the group as a whole picks as the outcome you see? I think I read something along those lines.

I think that's the most up-to-date info I've seen on it too. So you can remain light side while teaming with a full squad of dark siders because your character is still thinking good thoughts while the team impales their way through a kitten orphanage.

[Simond]

Those kittens were totally asking for it, though.

[Ingmar]

Given the faction split, I am working from the assumption that the possible outcomes of a given adventure or quest or whatever they're calling them will not be quite as far apart as 'save kittens/kill kittens'.

[Paelos]

Given the faction split, I am working from the assumption that the possible outcomes of a given adventure or quest or whatever they're calling them will not be quite as far apart as 'save kittens/kill kittens'.

Possibly, although I don't remember the light/dark choices in KOTOR being much more complicated.

Oh look, here's a stranded merchant. Do you want to:

A) Escort the merchant to the nearest star port.
B) Skullfuck him with your red lightsaber.

[DLRiley]

Worse yet, every MMO since WoW has been a derivative, less-polished attempt to do what Blizzard had already done.

I've heard people say this kinda thing before, and I don't really agree with it unless all it takes for you to consider something WoW derivative is for quest givers to have something like an ! over their head.  WAR was a less polished attempt at what Mythic had done with their last game.  AOC was likewise supposed to have a heavy PVP focus, as well as more story and more action-oriented combat.  FFXIV isn't derivative of anything from the last decade.  Champions and Star Trek felt more derivative of CoH than WoW.  In fact, the common thread all these games have is that they were all made by developers who were releasing MMO's before WoW ever came out.

I find people have taken to complaining about MMOs copying WoW when what they really mean is "it's another diku." I assume it's because WoW is the biggest one.

You have a place that sells bad burgers but they have a few ingredients that a small number of people love. It takes 50 minutes to make these bad burgers. McDonalds opens up next door, sells the same crappy burgers but minus the special ingredients find in the local burger place and cleans house. The local store now out of business, the people who shopped at the local burger place who loved the special ingredients yell at McDonalds for being corporate America. One year later various burger places open, selling equally bad burgers that all take 50 minutes to make and they all fail miserable in six months time. What do the people do? They cry "oh for fuck sakes stop being McDonalds!"Thus every new burger place that opens and closed shortly after is McDonalds fault for monopolizing the market and every burger place that wants to open says "we not competing with McDonalds" and continues to make bad burgers that take 50 minutes to make.

[Rasix]

What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[DLRiley]

What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Despite this response I'm the troll here 

[Nebu]

What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Billy Madison FTW!

[Azuredream]

I don't really get the analogy made there, but I also don't really agree with the WoW/McDonald's analogy either.

[Sjofn]

What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

So I'm not the only one whose eyes crossed trying to make sense of that. Hooray!

[Samprimary]

You have a place that sells bad burgers but they have a few ingredients that a small number of people love. It takes 50 minutes to make these bad burgers. McDonalds opens up next door, sells the same crappy burgers but minus the special ingredients find in the local burger place and cleans house. The local store now out of business, the people who shopped at the local burger place who loved the special ingredients yell at McDonalds for being corporate America. One year later various burger places open, selling equally bad burgers that all take 50 minutes to make and they all fail miserable in six months time. What do the people do? They cry "oh for fuck sakes stop being McDonalds!"Thus every new burger place that opens and closed shortly after is McDonalds fault for monopolizing the market and every burger place that wants to open says "we not competing with McDonalds" and continues to make bad burgers that take 50 minutes to make.

As an analytical analogy of competitive homogenization through attrition, this one manages to miss strategic relevance, strategic coherence, a reasonably observable and demonstrable observation of social response and interaction with the fast food industry both on its own and as a matter of comparison to MMO homogenization, or, for that matter, much tangibility that can survive the stretch in the comparison between two remarkably different industries in its attempt to make a point through comparison. Blah blah blah. More big words.

From an academic perspective — or a business one! — it's managing to strike out on all fronts. Iunno what else I can say about it.

[Surlyboi]

Don't get me wrong. I loved EQ when it came out. Stuck with it for years. Would've stuck with SWG if they hadn't fucked it with the NGE. I don't dislike MMOs, I love them in theory. It's the execution I have a problem with. WoW is just a derivative yet polished version of what came before it. Worse yet, every MMO since WoW has been a derivative, less-polished attempt to do what Blizzard had already done.

So you liked EQ, acknowledge that WoW is a better take on EQ, and hate that WAR (etc) are worse that WoW...and that somehow adds up to "WoW sucks" in your world?

Yeah, the problem isn't WoW here.

Then you misread what I wrote. Or at least misinterpreted it. i never acknowledged that WoW is a better take on EQ. More polished? Certainly. But in that job of polishing, they thoroughly removed the soul and replaced it with lame pop-culture references. Ashamanchill's WUA quote in his sig sums that up fairly nicely.

I hate that WAR (etc) decided to follow in those same soulless footsteps in an attempt to grab a piece of WoW's popularity. Hence my comment on SWG. It was a grindy, buggy piece of shit, but it had soul for fucking miles. That was all ripped out in an attempt to make it, "more accessible". I played WoW just long enough enough to realize it was sterile and seriously lacking in character. That may make it ok for lots of people, just not for me.

[Kageru]

All the cool kids hate WoW, it's being edgy and having forum-cred.

Most of their arguments are bunkum though. WoW has continued to evolve and is still doing some very interesting things from a mechanics stand point. Blaming them for being popular, or the rest of the market being in-capable of making a game actually worth playing is just odd. Sure, I loved EQ in its time. When the MMO market was smaller, people (and myself) were less Jaded and everything wasn't distilled to a list of instructions on a wiki by the time the game released. But for that too change was inevitable.

How this relates to SWTOR, which appears to have game mechanics so vanilla it puts you to sleep reading about them, is likewise a mystery.

[DraconianOne]

Blah, blah blah

Authorative sounding blah

I missed breakfast - can we go back the bit where we were talking about burgers?  

Given the faction split, I am working from the assumption that the possible outcomes of a given adventure or quest or whatever they're calling them will not be quite as far apart as 'save kittens/kill kittens'.

From some hints, I get the impression that it's not a straightforward faction choice and that Republic jedi can still make dark side choices (and, conversely, Imperials can make light-side choices). I do recall seeing a video briefly discussing this where a Jedi appeared to flush a load of people out of an airlock. Also, they have hinted that these decisions will play a factor later on in the storyline. (The cynical side in me says "Yeah, save the captain and he gives a quest later. Kill him and another npc gives the same quest anyway." The hopeful side of me says "If it affects available quests and options later on then yes, that will be cool.")

[Surlyboi]

All the cool kids hate WoW, it's being edgy and having forum-cred.

Conversely, white-knighting wow on forums gets you laid. Oh wait, it doesn't.

As for the potential boringness of SWOTR, I don't know. There are some potentially great concepts there, it's just that I fear they'll be buried under tons of crap.