SWTOR

[Sky]

Looks like your typical MMO. I still don't get why Star Wars gives MMO nerds such a hardon.

It's a story-oriented mmo with high production values. Sure, I don't expect much out of the gameplay, as long as it's pretty standard mmo fare, I'm ok with that. I'm looking forward to digging into the lore.

I read quest text, too. We've been through this, probably on page 85 or so  I like the original SW canon, but it's certainly not a nerdon for me. I haven't bought a SW title since Kotor 2, and that I bought years later in the bin. It's not really about SW for me, though that doesn't hurt it for me, either.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I'm really not seeing 'high production values' with this game. Fun and story driven it may be but it doesn't really blow me away visually.

[Reg]

High production values is about more than fancy graphics requiring powerful computers that most people don't have. WoW has high production values but I don't think anyone is blown away by its graphics are they?

[NiX]

High production values is about more than fancy graphics requiring powerful computers that most people don't have. WoW has high production values but I don't think anyone is blown away by its graphics are they?

I was with Lakov up until the visuals comment. The combat is lacking, animations are hard to watch and the content is.. Star Wars. For me, it's a dried up well and I think most of the hype is Bioware & Star Wars with hopes that it'll be as fun as KotOR.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Well, by visuals I don't just mean pixel count. I would say wow has a high production value because its visually stunning, has a very good look overall and things like animations and spells all look great.  SWTOR looks like, well...kotor and that's not good enough anymore, as I said before I believe Mass Effect is setting the bar for something like this and SWTOR is far below even that.

[Paelos]

Well, by visuals I don't just mean pixel count. I would say wow has a high production value because its visually stunning, has a very good look overall and things like animations and spells all look great.  SWTOR looks like, well...kotor and that's not good enough anymore, as I said before I believe Mass Effect is setting the bar for something like this and SWTOR is far below even that.

It's funny how the gameplay you remember sometimes gets visually updated in your mind over the years. I think I applied current graphics to my memories of my Kotor playing experience, because when I reloaded the original at the beginning of this year, it was a jarring experience.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Well kotor graphics are very bad by today's standards and yes swtor is better but not by as much as ME is. I would put swtor smack dab in the middle of kotor and ME for pure graphics power but stylistically swtor is still a buffed up kotor which is...well it just falls flat stylistically. They could have literally re-skinned ME and given lightsabers as a melee weapon and it would be 10x better than what is being shown thus far.

[Sky]

I disagree with what you said. I think it looks cool.

[Surlyboi]

Then again, you think WoW looks like ass.

Not that I don't agree with you on that score, but... yeah.

[Draegan]

When KOTOR was cheap on Steam a few weeks ago I loaded it up and... oh boy.  Times do change.  I also upgrade graphics in my head.

[Paelos]

When KOTOR was cheap on Steam a few weeks ago I loaded it up and... oh boy.  Times do change.  I also upgrade graphics in my head.

Morrowind was also a shock for me graphically. However, the music/sound was still hauntingly good. That was a classic theme.

[Shrike]

When KOTOR was cheap on Steam a few weeks ago I loaded it up and... oh boy.  Times do change.  I also upgrade graphics in my head.

Yeah, it was a bit of a shock. I can deal with the graphics (hell, I still play X-com), but it's the lack of WS resolutions that really get to me. KoTOR on a window about half the size of my actual monitor real estate is just a bit distracting. I'm seriously tempted to put my old 22" CRT back on this box just for playing it.

[Ingmar]

When KOTOR was cheap on Steam a few weeks ago I loaded it up and... oh boy.  Times do change.  I also upgrade graphics in my head.

Morrowind was also a shock for me graphically. However, the music/sound was still hauntingly good. That was a classic theme.

Morrowind looked like shit piled on top of ass when it released.

[Lantyssa]

Yeah, it was a bit of a shock. I can deal with the graphics (hell, I still play X-com), but it's the lack of WS resolutions that really get to me. KoTOR on a window about half the size of my actual monitor real estate is just a bit distracting. I'm seriously tempted to put my old 22" CRT back on this box just for playing it.

You can mod the resolution.  Still didn't help that I couldn't get past being captured by Malak due to bugs.

[NiX]

[Morrowind looked like shit piled on top of ass when it released.

Yeah, playing Morrowind now shouldn't shock anyone. That game looked like muddled ass from Day 1.

I disagree with what you said. I think it looks cool.

Fair enough. I just don't think the hype is justified.

[Draegan]

Hacking the .ini file for resolution for windowed mode is pretty easy.  Just make sure you set the file to read only if you use it via Steam.

[Sheepherder]

[Morrowind looked like shit piled on top of ass when it released.

Yeah, playing Morrowind now shouldn't shock anyone. That game looked like muddled ass from Day 1.

Occasionally it would look cool.  Then you would go inside, or it would get dark, or something would animate.

[Sky]

Fair enough. I just don't think the hype is justified.

And fair enough in return. I'm actually trying actively not to get too excited by a developer saying the right things for my niche of mmo enjoyment. I don't see how they can deliver what I'd enjoy in an mmo and also be successful at the level they need to pay off development and maintenance. My honest feeling is that as launch nears, more and more time is spent putting in features ripped directly from WoW until it's the WoW clone with lightsabers people joke about. Simply because for all the creative folks involved, there are a lot of suits breathing down their necks and the game has to leave the ivory tower at some point.

I'm not even sure it's possible to make a quality AAA mmo that's fun anymore. WoW has skewed everything so badly that I'm not sure even the developers themselves can see it sometimes.

[NiX]

I'm not even sure it's possible to make a quality AAA mmo that's fun anymore. WoW has skewed everything so badly that I'm not sure even the developers themselves can see it sometimes.

What were we disagreeing about before? This is my issue and not just with SWTOR. I've managed to get to a point where I only get up to mild interest and hold off any excitement until the game launches and people have feedback.

I hope they pull off something new, but if it boils down to WoW with voice overs, I only have Heroes of Telara and GW2 to restore any hope for the industry.

[Lakov_Sanite]

The thing is, so far no one HAS copied wow. Oh they've copied certain aspects of it here and there but none of the other recent MMO's have caught on that the game needs to be fun.  Too many developers take an almost adversarial role when it comes to the players, that the games end up suffering.  Even if gameplay was 100% different from wow it very well could succeed so long as its core gameplay is *gasp* fun and exciting.

[Merusk]

Yeah, it's been said time and again that Devs learn the wrong lessons from WoW and always come back with the excuse "It's successful only because of the installed fanbase for Blizzard games!"  You'd think 5 years and ~12 failed MMOs later someone would clue-in to that not being the case.

[Margalis]

Even if gameplay was 100% different from wow it very well could succeed so long as its core gameplay is *gasp* fun and exciting.

"Hey 4 star chef, what's your secret?"
"My food tastes good!"

Helpful!

Simply because for all the creative folks involved, there are a lot of suits breathing down their necks and the game has to leave the ivory tower at some point.

This sound nice but the truth is it's equally likely that a lot of the dev team are huge WoW fans and actively want to copy it as much as possible. I'd note that even on amateur game sites where the devs have complete freedom to do anything most of the games are clones. (Hell check out XBL community games)

You absolutely cannot blame the number of derivative video games on suits. It's an appealing and romantic notion but simply not true. Many of the people who are supposed to be "creative" very much want to create derivative products.

[Rendakor]

"Hey 4 star chef, what's your secret?"
"My food tastes good!"

I lol'd.

[Lakov_Sanite]

And yet they still get that part wrong. 

[NiX]

The thing is, so far no one HAS copied wow. Oh they've copied certain aspects of it here and there but none of the other recent MMO's have caught on that the game needs to be fun.  Too many developers take an almost adversarial role when it comes to the players, that the games end up suffering.  Even if gameplay was 100% different from wow it very well could succeed so long as its core gameplay is *gasp* fun and exciting.

Sorry, wasn't implying people have copied WoW. It's the attempts that are ruining MMOs. We have a WoW, we don't need another one. Fun and Excitement aren't staples of WoW, they're staples of successful games. I don't get why it's such a mystery to MMO designers.

[Sky]

This sound nice but the truth is it's equally likely that a lot of the dev team are huge WoW fans and actively want to copy it as much as possible.

Oh yeah, don't mistake my comment for dismissing that part. That's actually what I was alluding to with the following quote. Even though there are definitely people straight-up ripping off WoW, there are some who think they're doing something new...but can't see the heavy hand of WoW writ large. As someone who played enough WoW to have a feel for it, but not a WoW player (I played 3 months at release to level 58), it's (probably not) surprising to see how much it's permeated the genre. If people want to play WoW, they'll play WoW. I don't understand why that's seemingly difficult to understand.

WoW has skewed everything so badly that I'm not sure even the developers themselves can see it sometimes.

Anyway. What Nix said.

[Draegan]

Sorry, wasn't implying people have copied WoW. It's the attempts that are ruining MMOs. We have a WoW, we don't need another one.

Just like we had DOOM and didn't need another one?  Or like how we had Half Life and didn't need another one?  Or like we had Street Fighter and didn't need another one?  (Or any other genre of game)

It's fine to keep the genre going taking tried and true methods and just refining them to be better.  It's just laughable that so many people suck at the refining part.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Let's say WOW is analog to street fighterII  now, there may have been fighting games before that but SFII put them on the map.  You remember how many bad, really bad fighting games came after? Think of how long it took to get to a Tekken or Guilty Gear, both games that differed from SFII in many ways but kept the 'fun' of fighting games intact. Now look at MMO land, we're about due for our Tekken but I'm not so sure SWTOR is it.

[NiX]

Let's say WOW is analog to street fighterII  now, there may have been fighting games before that but SFII put them on the map.  You remember how many bad, really bad fighting games came after? Think of how long it took to get to a Tekken or Guilty Gear, both games that differed from SFII in many ways but kept the 'fun' of fighting games intact. Now look at MMO land, we're about due for our Tekken but I'm not so sure SWTOR is it.

This. I'm not going to argue over WoW being the genre because my real point was what Lankov said. We don't need another WoW, we need something that varies enough from it that's fun.

[Malakili]

Let's say WOW is analog to street fighterII  now, there may have been fighting games before that but SFII put them on the map.  You remember how many bad, really bad fighting games came after? Think of how long it took to get to a Tekken or Guilty Gear, both games that differed from SFII in many ways but kept the 'fun' of fighting games intact. Now look at MMO land, we're about due for our Tekken but I'm not so sure SWTOR is it.

This. I'm not going to argue over WoW being the genre because my real point was what Lankov said. We don't need another WoW, we need something that varies enough from it that's fun.

We've had some of those (Planetside, World War 2 Online, Fallen Earth), but the still don't end up being big (though they can survive to various degree).  I think the issue is that people are probably not going to play more than one, and almost definitely not more than 2 MMOs at a time, and the model is designed around keeping players long term, so its important not just to be good, but to be better enough from the other options that it compels people to switch over completely.

[eldaec]

You just listed a bunch of games that launched before WoW, and an indie title.

People were trying to move beyond the EQ model before WoW.

Since WoW there has been a ridiculous assumption that EQ/WoW is the only model that can exist. A significant number has even gone to the trouble of copying UI elements wholesale in order to prove 'we're just like WoW'.

[Malakili]

Since WoW there has been a ridiculous assumption that EQ/WoW is the only model that can exist. A significant number has even gone to the trouble of copying UI elements wholesale in order to prove 'we're just like WoW'.

Well, nothing else has stuck and there have been a few tries I can think of.  Global Agenda had to go free to play(well, box sale only, to be clear), Hellgate London crashed, APB lasted what, 2 months?  There have been some successful free to play games though not generally well liked in "the west."

I guess my point is, its not just that no one is trying anything, its that the few attempts have generally not been successful.  Whether or not the reason they failed had anything to do with be not enough like WoW, the market isn't going to be jumping on the bandwagon to make lots of new games of a type that haven't caught on yet.

[Margalis]

A significant number has even gone to the trouble of copying UI elements wholesale in order to prove 'we're just like WoW'.

On these boards I've seen the argument multiple times that new games should copy the UI because it's so awesome and if it's not broke don't fix it etc.

[Sjofn]

Copying UI elements from another game is way, way low on my list of "sins" a game can commit, yeah.

[Spiff]

Wouldn't Lotro perhaps qualify as sort of a Tekken to WoW's SFII?
And I'm not taking recent (post Moria-expansion) developments like Designer switches/f2p and whatnot into account for a minute, just the original design and reasonable launch/first year success.
Derivative, but with enough new flavours to be successful in its' own right.

Success-wise it's not comparable of course, but it's hardly the abject failure most other 'AAA' titles have been.

Whenever I look at SW:ToR that's what it reminds me most of as well (I'm a bit biased probably having played Lotro for quite a while), with the focus on the IP, story-telling and a casual audience.

Also why I don't think they're adding anything new to the mix, but at least this mix worked reasonably well before.
If it feels like a slightly smoother, more expensive Lotro (with jetpacks and lightsabres! ) I'm sure a lot of people will be happy having bought the box (me included).