SWTOR

[Lucas]

New planet unveiled, and heyyy, an old acquaintance! :

http://www.swtor.com/info/holonet/planets/corellia

It's now 15 planets, 11 + 4 origin ones.

[LK]

So do we have a solid idea on how big a "planet" is compared to, say, a KOTOR Map or a WoW Zone?

[Lucas]

No, we really don't know, yet: they say the "origin" planets are much, much smaller than some of the other planets you will visit later in the story.

I actually expect, as a whole, small-average sized areas, but quite dense and detailed when it comes to the surrounding environment, general furniture and of course story. And also, very little freedom of going off rails like in any other bioware games. But if the story is good enough, that's ok for me, since I'll just focus on story and roleplaying.

[Malakili]

No, we really don't know, yet: they say the "origin" planets are much, much smaller than some of the other planets you will visit later in the story.

I actually expect, as a whole, small-average sized areas, but quite dense and detailed when it comes to the surrounding environment, general furniture and of course story. And also, very little freedom of going off rails like in any other bioware games. But if the story is good enough, that's ok for me, since I'll just focus on story and roleplaying.

At the risk of starting a heated discussion, what do you intend to do RP wise?  I've found it nearly impossible to do any meaningful RP in story heavy MMOs.  Do you just ignore the actual game when you want?  The reason I quit RPing in MMOs was that it seemed to me to be effectively a glorified chat room RP when it came down to it, and while thats not the worst thing ever, I was so continually frustrated by the limitations on what could've been really awesome, that I ended up just saying to hell with it.

[LK]

So, justifying subscriptions for a game like this by adding multiplayer and a fuck ton of content to a KOTOR mindset, but not with any meaningful activities to keep players going once they reach the end?

[Vinadil]

Sounds about right.  Aiming for the crowd that enjoys playing through the storyline(s) as different characters, but being able to do it with friends.  I am sure they will have some "high-end" dungeons that give different gear for people that want to keep playing at the high levels too.

How much time does it take to play through a standard KOTOR type game?  Wonder if the level curve here will follow the same.  It would definitely be different if you could reach max level in an MMO in 40-60 hours played. 

[Lantyssa]

So, justifying subscriptions for a game like this by adding multiplayer and a fuck ton of content to a KOTOR mindset, but not with any meaningful activities to keep players going once they reach the end?

We don't know it is subscription-based yet.

[DraconianOne]

How much time does it take to play through a standard KOTOR type game?  Wonder if the level curve here will follow the same.  It would definitely be different if you could reach max level in an MMO in 40-60 hours played. 

I believe they've implied that there is more story in SWTOR than all(?) of their other games combined. Haven't got the source to hand at the moment though.

[Vinadil]

I have heard the same, and also the implication that said story might be accessed by playing the game again with a different class/character.  Seeing how many people have multiple level 80s in WoW, if they make the process of building a character and discovering the story interesting they might tap into some of that market.

[LK]

A shit ton of content won't be their problem. A finite amount of it to go through that isn't repeatable will be.

How well the multiplayer portions of their game actually works together will also be important.

[Koyasha]

I think if they get a few million people to subscribe long enough to run through half the classes and experience the story, and not necessarily all at the same time, they'll probably be able to call it a definite win.  Beyond that, new players and churn will probably limit their total concurrent subscribers, but as they make new content and release expansions or whatever, most players will drift back, play some of the new stuff, then drift away...but they seem likely to, overall, have a steadily profitable amount of players.

[Malakili]

I think if they get a few million people to subscribe long enough

Thats a pretty big assumption to make.  Even 1 million would have to be considered successful by industry standards if they retain them.  A 'few million' would be almost without precedent.

[Maledict]

I think if they get a few million people to subscribe long enough

Thats a pretty big assumption to make.  Even 1 million would have to be considered successful by industry standards if they retain them.  A 'few million' would be almost without precedent.

1 million would be a feat only one other MMO has managed - World of Warcraft. No other Western MMO has ever retained more than 500K subscribers, nevermind 1 million, and nevermind the 4 million or so WoW has. That's why when companies say "We only need 1 million" it seems a bit odd - everyone forgets that WoW isn't just a huge success, it's bigger than the entire rest of the Western MMO market combined. Aiming for 1 million subscribing people is a really difficult goal, and won't just be a success - it'll be the biggest thing to hit MMO space since WoW launched. Anyone breaking that lock Blizzard has on 1 million + subscribers would be huge.

[Lantyssa]

Obviously this was missed being four posts up...

I think if they get a few million people to subscribe long enough

Thats a pretty big assumption to make.  Even 1 million would have to be considered successful by industry standards if they retain them.  A 'few million' would be almost without precedent.

It is a big assumption to make that this is a subscription-based game.

It might be, it might not.  The only thing we have heard was a loud-mouthed upper management a few years ago saying it wouldn't be.  They may very well go for a more Guild Wars-esque model, with micro-trans or expansions being the primary income.

[Riggswolfe]

Obviously this was missed being four posts up...

I think if they get a few million people to subscribe long enough

Thats a pretty big assumption to make.  Even 1 million would have to be considered successful by industry standards if they retain them.  A 'few million' would be almost without precedent.

It is a big assumption to make that this is a subscription-based game.

It might be, it might not.  The only thing we have heard was a loud-mouthed upper management a few years ago saying it wouldn't be.  They may very well go for a more Guild Wars-esque model, with micro-trans or expansions being the primary income.

I honestly can't imagine it using the guild wars model. I'm guessing it'll be $14.99/month.

[Malakili]

It is a big assumption to make that this is a subscription-based game.

Ok, then its a big assumption to even assume they'll sell several million copies, regardless of their pricing model after the box sale.

[Lantyssa]

KotOR sold well more than a million units.  WAR and AoC were in the million-in-a-month range.  I don't see why this would do any worse, no matter how much we might mock it.

[LK]

For all the time and money they've put into it and the hope that this will be a WoW-killer, they *need* to be taking more than $50-$60 per box from the customer for this to be a smashing success.

Subscription money is where the real income is at.

[waylander]

Warhammer sold over 800k copies initially and AOC sold 1.2 million copies initially, but 3 months later neither one retained over 500k paying customers.  Gamers don't wait a year anymore for someone to fix the game, patch in the fun later, etc.  If the game isn't launched right or patched up within 30 days, the previous trends suggest massive customer losses.

SWTOR sounds fun with the story driven combat. If there are stupid lockout timers or the middle to late level game is very repetitive or lacking content then they will be in serious trouble.

[UnSub]

I found a nonsense post from BioWare saying they'll charge for SWOR what the market says is acceptable at the time. Not going to link it.

To date, SWOR is PC-only. BioWare games do sell millions of boxes (over 2million copies in the first week) but they also perform strongly on the Xbox 360 (ME2 has sold almost 2 million units on that console). SWOR (to date) doesn't have that support, so it needs to do all its heavy lifting on the PC.

That BioWare is getting comfortable selling DLC and having its BioWare account system. Plus this game it just too expensive to rely on pure box sales. I'm expecting to see a hybrid model - box fee, some sort of sub fee (or montly fee that provides bonuses for paying, like extra inventory space or access to certain in-game systems) and then DLC charged on top of that.

[Hawkbit]

The double dipping raises a pretty big red flag for me, personally.  I'm down with paying a sub for content and another $40/yr for an xpac, or I'm down for a GW style no-sub/frequent xpac.  But both, I might have to draw the line there if you're charging me a cover charge *and* making me buy drinks to stay in the club. 

[Rendakor]

I'm with Hawkbit. Either sub, or DLC. Not both.

[Velorath]

I can't really see them releasing a lot of DLC (as in mission packs).  If there's as much story content in the game as they say there is, it doesn't seem like there'd be much incentive to buy more unless you've already catassed through every class you're interested in.  I could picture them selling shit like silver lightsaber crystals, or "here's a really cool looking skin for your landspeeder/companion/starfighter" or something though.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I can't really see them releasing a lot of DLC (as in mission packs).  If there's as much story content in the game as they say there is, it doesn't seem like there'd be much incentive to buy more unless you've already catassed through every class you're interested in.  I could picture them selling shit like silver lightsaber crystals, or "here's a really cool looking skin for your landspeeder/companion/starfighter" or something though.

This entire post made me laugh.

[Velorath]

I can't really see them releasing a lot of DLC (as in mission packs).  If there's as much story content in the game as they say there is, it doesn't seem like there'd be much incentive to buy more unless you've already catassed through every class you're interested in.  I could picture them selling shit like silver lightsaber crystals, or "here's a really cool looking skin for your landspeeder/companion/starfighter" or something though.

This entire post made me laugh.

I'm not sure what about it is funny.  It's easier to make money off cosmetic stuff it takes some guy a few hours to code than it is to take the time to do DLC content, and it creates less of an uproar.  I imagine that's part of the reason Blizzard sells $25 mounts rather than DLC packs (which would likely sell pretty well if they did produce them).

[Simond]

Have you played Dragon Age or ME2?

[Riggswolfe]

Have you played Dragon Age or ME2?

Yes and those are different beasts from an MMO. Lots of single player games, especially RPGs, are coming out with DLC these days. Seeing it happen there is no gurantee you'll have a $7 download with 2 hours of gameplay in an MMO.

[SnakeCharmer]

Have you played Dragon Age or ME2?

You know better than to bring those two games up when talking about this Bioware...

[Vinadil]

I would not care so much if they release DLC, I just agree with some of the above that if I actually needed to use it within the first 300 hours of game play or so I would feel like their promise of "more content than all of our other games" fell a bit short.  Sure much of the content between factions and classes may repeat, but the experiences should be different enough to get me through those sections and onto the unique part they talk about.

Honestly I think much of AoC's issues came when I stopped playing through the story and had to play the actual game.  The 1-20 experience was just SO much better than the 20+ experience that I felt ripped off.  THat is one of the reasons I would not be upset at ALL if they let players reach the level cap with one character in 40-50 hours.  That is quite a bit of game time for a single player game... and if you even add another 4-5 hours worth of unique experiences for a separate class/faction you can bet people will put another 40 hours in to see that extra 4; especially if the game itself is just fun to play or fun to play with friends.

[Velorath]

Have you played Dragon Age or ME2?

Yeah.  4 out of 7 of ME2's paid DLC packs are for gear or alternate character appearances.  The 3 content packs are around 1-2 hours each, which are fairly negligible amounts of time if you put that in the context of an MMO.  I'm not saying that EA and Bioware won't find extra stuff to sell players, I'm saying story content seems less likely than having people pay $5 to unlock Mandalorians as a playable race.

[Nonentity]

Didn't EQ2 do those mini "adventure packs" and they tanked horribly?

I remember the first EQ2 expansion had them bundled in, in a sort of "oh, right, sorry about these" kind of way.

Not that I'd take it as a shining example of how it would fail miserably in an MMO, but it seems like doing lots of content splintering is more of a headache than just having major expansions.

[SnakeCharmer]

The success or failure of DLC and adventure xpacs like the EQ2 thing can mostly be attributed to timing. 

The initial reaction of most MMO gamers is HELL NO JUST CHARGE ME A SUB FEE AND REGULAR XPAC PRICE!11!!, but that mentality is slowing coming around to acceptance for a number of reasons.  Chief among them are a lot of us old school gamers are dying off, and DLC has thrived under the PS3 / 360 (and Steam on the PC).  Personally, I don't care if the game is free, sub based, or even some form of micro trans.  As long as it's good, I'll play it (hello LOTRO) and even buy some stuff from the online stores that may total more than what it would have been under a regular sub.  I would be very surprised if at the end of a year that my total for the LOTRO extras ends up being much different (10 percent) than what it would have cost me for a years worth of subs and an xpac or two.

[Cadaverine]

Didn't EQ2 do those mini "adventure packs" and they tanked horribly?

I remember the first EQ2 expansion had them bundled in, in a sort of "oh, right, sorry about these" kind of way.

Not that I'd take it as a shining example of how it would fail miserably in an MMO, but it seems like doing lots of content splintering is more of a headache than just having major expansions.

Yep, there were three of them.  One for Splitpaw, one for Nektuos Castle, and a third one that I never saw.  They charged $7.95 for them.  I don't recall the Nektulos one, really, but the Splitpaw one was pretty meh.  Decent enough xp around level 20, and it was instanced so you didn't have to deal with anyone, but that's about it.  I got about 10 or so quests before I ran into the group only content.

That said, I don't see DLC in MMOs taking off just yet.  Not when you have so many of the current games giving away that content for free, particularly Blizzard.

[Rendakor]

The EQ2 DLC zones were a nightmare because they included raid content, but forming a raid while coordinating who had which pack was a major hassle.

[Sky]

I got them free with Station Pass (hey, at the time it was a decent deal for PS/EQ2/SWG). Still ran into the group-only content cockblock, which may be part of the reason I dislike group-only content cockblocks. I think my lvl 74 or whatever wizard still had a splitpaw cockblock quest in his quest log in the vain hopes some day I'd be able to convince someone to bother with it so long after nobody gives a shit.