SWTOR

[eldaec]

Raph Koster circa 2004 would probably wish to point out that SWG kind of does facilitate that gameplay by giving you player cities, guilds, pvp, and destructable shit. None of which is universally available in mmorpgs.

[Mrbloodworth]

Put me on the list, because the game did facilitate that kind of stuff.

[sam, an eggplant]

I am going to disagree.  There idea that everyone can be a Jedi really only works in a single player game.  In a MMO it becomes silly.  That is not Star Wars.  If you want that kind of game you certainly can make it without using the Star Wars franchise. 

From all we've seen, SWTOR is not a traditional MMO. The developers keep saying it has a persistent shared gaming space, but they never show it or provide any specifics about how it all works. Clearly a great deal of the game must take place in instances to facilitate the kind of KOTOR-style deep (as opposed to wide) storytelling and meaningful choices with consequences they keep showing us in these movies.

[Ingmar]

but I can't believe they made Cannon Fodder... er, Trooper... a class in this game.

Think of it as them making Canderous Ordo a class.

[ajax34i]

Isn't pretty much every class Cannon Fodder (even the Jedi) in MMO's?  I'm thinking of the typical raid scenario where there are several raid wipes before the boss is down.

[Malakili]

Isn't pretty much every class Cannon Fodder (even the Jedi) in MMO's?  I'm thinking of the typical raid scenario where there are several raid wipes before the boss is down.

I think the point is more along the lines of  being surprised that a Class in the MMO is being made out characters that existed in the movies for the express purpose of being mowed down by the dozens.  It would be kind of like making a class out of "peon" in the warcraft universe.

[Sheepherder]

Hence the disconnect between IP and game that has to be bridged.  Maybe they're elite troopers. :shrug:

[Murgos]

When I heard that they had a Trooper class I was hoping you got a squad of troopers as your 'character'.  Sure some would die every fight but that what you bring a healer for.

Sure, 1 trooper != 1 Jedi but a dozen?  You could have fun with that...

[Malakili]

Hence the disconnect between IP and game that has to be bridged.  Maybe they're elite troopers. :shrug:

Or they'll just ignore the disconnect and balance the class to fit the game.  In fact, HOPEFULLY thats what they *will* do.  

[Rasix]

It's just unfortunate naming.  I'm sure your origin story/tutorial will enforce how much of a bad ass you are compared with regular cannon fodder.   A squad would have been an interesting gameplay mechanic,  but we can't have those, can we?

[sam, an eggplant]

A squad would have been an interesting gameplay mechanic,  but we can't have those, can we?

Bioware titles aren't really about gameplay. It just gets in the way of the story. That's why I'm excited about SWTOR; it promises to be the first MMO where there's something to do other than kill stuff. If it is, in fact, a MMO. I have my doubts.

As for the trooper, think about gameplay archetypes and background rather than getting bogged down in thinking about stormtroopers dying by the dozens. They needed a republic version of the bounty hunter, the durable ranged class that doesn't use cover.

[eldaec]

....stuff.....troopers....stuff....

They're just bounty hunters on the side of the angels. Nobody seems to have a particular problem with bounty hunters being equal to jedi/sith - and since this is a transparent mirror class in lighter coloured armour I'm not sure what all the fuss is about.

[Sheepherder]

Because this is Space Pirates of The Space Caribbean: The Game.  You have to explain why the doofy cannon fodder for the main protagonist all a sudden aren't.  It really isn't a story based game if the developers just ignores glaring inconsistencies in the story and lore, is it?

Bounty hunters are different, they've got a long tradition of badassery: like staring down a guy who strangles generals for kicks.

[LK]

Bounty hunters are different, they've got a long tradition of badassery: like staring down a guy who strangles generals for kicks.

To be fair, Boba knew Anakin when he was in his whiny bitch phase. He grew up without fear of the Jedi, only hatred. Also, Boba may knows how Vader works by not fucking up and knowing he won't have to worry if he gets the job done and doesn't do anything stupid like ask "Where's my money?" after delivering the package.

[Fordel]

The Trooper is just supposed to be the KOTOR version of a Republic Commando or ARC:Trooper.

I'm totally down with the idea of your character being an actual squad of Troopers though, but I'm one of the few people who seemed to really like The Republic Commando game.

Even with just the one Trooper though, just make him feel like this guy:





-edit- I've totally made this same post already, but like 50 pages ago, Haven't I?

[Velorath]

Because this is Space Pirates of The Space Caribbean: The Game.  You have to explain why the doofy cannon fodder for the main protagonist all a sudden aren't.  It really isn't a story based game if the developers just ignores glaring inconsistencies in the story and lore, is it?

Bounty hunters are different, they've got a long tradition of badassery: like staring down a guy who strangles generals for kicks.

You could always try reading the class description on the website.

[Malakili]

The Trooper is just supposed to be the KOTOR version of a Republic Commando or ARC:Trooper.

I'm totally down with the idea of your character being an actual squad of Troopers though, but I'm one of the few people who seemed to really like The Republic Commando game.

Even with just the one Trooper though, just make him feel like this guy:





-edit- I've totally made this same post already, but like 50 pages ago, Haven't I?

Star Wars thread (lots of posts!)  + slow trickle of new information = lots of repetition.   Oh well, I think it says more about the state of the MMO industry that we've already got this baby up to 80+ pages before the game is beta.  I wish we had something else/better to talk about in this forum, but hell, even the Darkfall thread is back up near the top lately. 

[Lantyssa]

-edit- I've totally made this same post already, but like 50 pages ago, Haven't I?

Someone did, if it wasn't you.

I'm fine with it, personally.  You'll be killing the cannon-fodder.  Your trooper is the elite of the elite.  The N7 of Star Wars.

[Margalis]

You could always try reading the class description on the website.

You mean this?

In the years since the Treaty of Coruscant, the Jedi have withdrawn in significant numbers to their homeworld of Tython. Their presence in the Republic military, though still significant, is not what it was during the war. In many ways, the Republic’s newly-trained elite Troopers have stepped up to take charge of the Republic’s defenses.

So basically Troopers aren't as powerful as Jedi but there just aren't enough Jedi to go around and they're the best of the rest. Which would make a lot of sense in SWG but not so much in SWTOR. Their entire class description reads like someone trying to be polite. You guys are pretty skillful I guess and also great buds!

"Troopers aren't as powerful as Jedi" is a pretty no-duh statement by the way. I hope that isn't controversial. What the hell is the point of Jedi and their super high midichlorian counts if they aren't any better than a dude with a gun and some training?

Not that I really care how close this game follows the cringe-inducing Star Wars canon - in fact the less it has to do with Star Wars the better. But Jedi are obviously more powerful than random other dudes, that's basically the only compelling aspect of Star Wars at this point.

They wanted a Bounter Hunter equivalent so they made up something for utilitarian reasons. And really Bounty Hunters are also dumb as a concept. Boba Fett didn't do jack shit and the new movies are jokes so I'm not sure how anyone thinks that Bounty Hunters are somehow equivalent to Jedi, especially when a Jedi could always just pick up Bounty Hunting and be a billion times better at it than a normal person. (Jedi Bounty Hunter - is your mind blown?) I suppose this is where some EU nerd informs me that Lodu Blistarius, a Morongovian Bounty Hunter, took on 3 Jedi and won in Star Wars: Empire's Reach: The Hastening.

PS: I love Star Wars, can you tell?

[Velorath]

Well, I guess you get partial credit for copying about 25% of it at least, even though you seem to have intentionally ignorned the most relevant bits.

[Sheepherder]

Like the parts that neglect to mention why they're suddenly capable of a 1v1 versus a Sith?

[Margalis]

Wheaties - The Breakfast of Champions.

They are equipped to face any foe in any environment, but it’s not their gear that makes them tough—it’s their guts. The Troopers’ greatest weapons are their indomitable spirit, their unwavering sense of duty and their undying loyalty to each other and to the ideals that the Republic represent.

Quite unlike the slovenly, cowardly, treacherous Jedi.

I also like this bit:

For decades, the armed forces of the Galactic Republic defended their civilization against the seemingly unstoppable Sith Empire.

Defenders of good writing to arms!

[Velorath]

If you really want to be a lore nerd over it.  Otherwise it does an adequate job of explaining for the purposes of a game.

[Margalis]

If you really want to be a lore nerd over it.  Otherwise it does an adequate job of explaining for the purposes of a game.

I have to agree. Obviously a combat class other than Jedi is going to be a bit of a contrivance but now that the game is saddled with an awful license there's no need to double down by making sure that awfulness rigidly defines the game.

Although I will say that controlling a group of dudes is a great idea, and hence will never happen, as Star Wars and good ideas are like matter and anti-matter.

[Velorath]

Anyhow, I think the important part of the class description is this:

In the wake of the Treaty of Coruscant, the Republic military has begun recruiting from within its own ranks, creating cutting-edge Special Forces squads for the inevitable day when the war with the Sith Empire begins anew. These advanced strike teams are comprised of only the most talented and disciplined soldiers—a new breed of elite Republic Troopers.

Sounds like PC Troopers are essentially the best of the best.  That's about as good of an explanation as it's going to get.

Also, controlling a squad of Troopers would be cool (I think in the past in this thread, people have used the City of Villains Mastermind class as an example of this kind of gameplay), but in the case of SWTOR I think it would be a little tricky for Bioware from a class story standpoint.  A guy controlling a squad of disposable Troopers might be a little less exciting in conversations than a Jedi or Bounty Hunter.

[Kageru]

Controlling a squad, just to make Jedi feel better, at a cost to my ability to identify with my character is a bad idea.

If the best Jedi need to be more powerful than the best non-jedi then they should have been NPC's. Though of course trying to sell the general public, who they need for their 2 million subs, on classes other than Jedi is going to be a tough slog.

[Koyasha]

Wheaties - The Breakfast of Champions.

They are equipped to face any foe in any environment, but it’s not their gear that makes them tough—it’s their guts. The Troopers’ greatest weapons are their indomitable spirit, their unwavering sense of duty and their undying loyalty to each other and to the ideals that the Republic represent.

Quite unlike the slovenly, cowardly, treacherous Jedi.

Well frankly the Jedi are pretty damn treacherous.  Speaking from the parts I know (basically just movies and KOTOR) I don't know a single Jedi off-hand who isn't a blatant liar and manipulator, even to the people on their own side.  And loyalty to the republic?  Let's not forget the Mandalorian Wars, when the Jedi (the ones in charge, anyway) sat on their hands and did nothing.  Yaaah, lotsa loyalty and duty there.  So I think the troopers might just have a couple edges in those departments.

[Ratman_tf]

I think the point is more along the lines of  being surprised that a Class in the MMO is being made out characters that existed in the movies for the express purpose of being mowed down by the dozens.  It would be kind of like making a class out of "peon" in the warcraft universe.

If you take the Clone Wars cartoon as close to canon (Which I do, since Lucas seems to have a good deal of actual input into the series, not just "Sure, slap the SW name on that sucka and give me my check.") there are plenty of examples of named character Trooper type characters.

[Ratman_tf]

They wanted a Bounter Hunter equivalent so they made up something for utilitarian reasons. And really Bounty Hunters are also dumb as a concept. Boba Fett didn't do jack shit and the new movies are jokes so I'm not sure how anyone thinks that Bounty Hunters are somehow equivalent to Jedi, especially when a Jedi could always just pick up Bounty Hunting and be a billion times better at it than a normal person. (Jedi Bounty Hunter - is your mind blown?) I suppose this is where some EU nerd informs me that Lodu Blistarius, a Morongovian Bounty Hunter, took on 3 Jedi and won in Star Wars: Empire's Reach: The Hastening.

Thank god it's make clear in the movies that Jedi are immortal, infalliable and unstoppable. They're not a billion times better, they're a zillion, grillion, ka-ma-ba-illion times better at everything and anything.

[Murgos]

Controlling a squad, just to make Jedi feel better, at a cost to my ability to identify with my character is a bad idea.

X-Com showed me 15 years ago that I have no problem identifying with a whole squad or even a robot tank (or Ultima 3 20 years before that or heck any party based RPG even).

But yeah, fuck an original play mechanic, let's stick with the same old, same old. 

[Velorath]

Doing something just for the sake of being original, regardless of whether or not it fits in with the kind of game you're making is a bad idea.  Is it possible to identify with a squad if characters like you did in X-Com?  Sure, but in a completely different manner than Bioware uses in their games.  It doesn't fit to have seven classes that all have personal stories, and then have one class that made up of generic fodder.  Even if you take in a role as their commander, your options in conversations would largely be limited to "yes sir".

Edit:  Also, it's a slightly modified pet class.  It isn't all that original of a mechanic.  As I mentioned a few posts up, it's pretty much the CoV Mastermind class.

[Murgos]

Doing something just for the sake of being original, regardless of whether or not it fits in with the kind of game you're making is a bad idea.  Is it possible to identify with a squad if characters like you did in X-Com?  Sure, but in a completely different manner than Bioware uses in their games.  It doesn't fit to have seven classes that all have personal stories, and then have one class that made up of generic fodder.  Even if you take in a role as their commander, your options in conversations would largely be limited to "yes sir".

Edit:  Also, it's a slightly modified pet class.  It isn't all that original of a mechanic.  As I mentioned a few posts up, it's pretty much the CoV Mastermind class.

Whatever.

[WindupAtheist]

PS: I love Star Wars, can you tell?

Yeah, I know what it needs to be in order for you to like it. 



I don't really give a shit about this game or this thread, but I've been waiting forever to use that again...

[Mosesandstick]

Isn't Bastilla a bit old for pedobear? Mission?

[Rasix]

PS: I love Star Wars, can you tell?

Yeah, I know what it needs to be in order for you to like it. 



I don't really give a shit about this game or this thread, but I've been waiting forever to use that again...

Nah, you've got him pegged wrong.  He'll want Mario and waggle controls.