SWTOR

[Pezzle]

Enough with the fucking lightsabers!!  Force powers get used so much they have become boring.  Oh hey, Jim, this video sequence we made is not flashy enough.  Throw a few guys with lightsabers into each sequence.

[Typhon]

[...]  Force powers get used so much they have become boring. [...]

These words... I don't... what language is this?

[Typhon]

[...]
I'd rather be the guy that's optimistic about a game that ends up being complete shit than the cynical fuck that pops into a topic to say "hey guys, this game's gonna suck" just so he can say "I told you so" later on.

This!  Not that I'll put my cheerleader skirt on for just any game (I never bought SWG because SimBeru was just  to me), but an action game where I get to kick a lot of ass in a setting I like?  Where are my pom-poms?!  IT'S GONNA BE GREAT1!!1!!

[Draegan]

There were some scenes where the animation was just ass but there were some scenes where the combat seemed pretty cool.  Maybe it's old and new footage combined.  I did see a lightsaber actually go to deflect a blaster shot, I hope that was in real time because that's somewhat different.

I laughed pretty hard when they said "We're bringing combat to the next level".  Don't know what the fuck they're smoking.

[Malakili]

[...]
I'd rather be the guy that's optimistic about a game that ends up being complete shit than the cynical fuck that pops into a topic to say "hey guys, this game's gonna suck" just so he can say "I told you so" later on.

This!  Not that I'll put my cheerleader skirt on for just any game (I never bought SWG because SimBeru was just  to me), but an action game where I get to kick a lot of ass in a setting I like?  Where are my pom-poms?!  IT'S GONNA BE GREAT1!!1!!

 

I get optimistic about games, don't get me wrong, just not really with MMOs anymore.

[SnakeCharmer]

There were some scenes where the animation was just ass but there were some scenes where the combat seemed pretty cool.  Maybe it's old and new footage combined.  I did see a lightsaber actually go to deflect a blaster shot, I hope that was in real time because that's somewhat different.

Not really.  SWG did it back in '03.  So did the KOTOR games and JK.

I laughed pretty hard when they said "We're bringing combat to the next level".  Don't know what the fuck they're smoking.

No doubt.  In other games you press tab this way...In our game you press tab thiiiiiiis way.  See?  Its different!  And instead of losing mana/force/action when you use an action, you have to build up action/force/mana by USING specials so you can use the NEXT special!  You grind for specials so you can grind for specials!!  We're different, man!!

[Ollie]

Not that I'll put my cheerleader skirt on for just any game (I never bought SWG because SimBeru was just  to me), but an action game where I get to kick a lot of ass in a setting I like?  Where are my pom-poms?!  IT'S GONNA BE GREAT1!!1!!

You liked Force Unleashed, didn't you, you scallywag? I bet you did. Shame on you. Now let me get back to my moisture farming. 

[Merusk]

I'll bet he did.  Tri was one of the 'big names' on the SWG pre-release boards.. which I'm sure he looks back on with much regret at the wasted time. 

[Sky]

You guys are motherfucking jaded. That looked cool (for an mmo), combined with story elements of Bioware it should be a good game. Graphics looked nice, some cool little tricks going on.

My only concern with the game is the story decisions with group members, as we've already covered here. I don't expect RoboJesus, though, just a fun game for a couple months.

[Ironwood]

Senior Games Developer.

He looked 12.

 

Glad I wasn't the only one slightly taken aback by that. Not that my reaction in any way reflects the man's credentials or competence, of which I know absolutely nothing about. He might be a design god, and I'd be none the wiser. It's just that he made me feel so very... old.

Yeah, this.

I clearly am not about to comment on anything else.  Fair play to him.

[Koyasha]

I wish someone would design "melee" to have the same range as "ranged" combat.  You target someone far away and press a melee attack, and your character runs/rolls/force-jumps his way to the target first.  Then if you target someone back where you previously were and press another attack, your character runs/rolls/jumps back.  Give range to the melee abilities, where if you're not next to your target, each ability will include some sort of movement to get to the target, fluidly animated.  I shouldn't have to use my movement keys during a sword fight; I should just be able to pick any of the targets in the combat area and press my attack keys, and the computer can move / jump / pirouette me around the battle zone, and animate me properly so it looks like I'm attacking with my sword like a martial arts pro.

Cause let me tell you, circle-strafing with a melee-weapon doesn't look kick-ass and isn't really all that much fun.  And that's what PVP will be.

This seems to be an excellent idea, to my mind.  Although it does take something away from the player in a manner of speaking.  Even better, have all attacks have animations somewhere around 5 seconds, during which the computer maneuvers your character around and does a complete attack sequence.  And at the same time, you get to make movement decisions.  The attack will go perfectly well whether you do or not, but essentially throw a QTE sort of sequence in there where at about 1.5 and 3.5 seconds into the animation you get to make a couple decisions as to which direction to go in, thus determining your final position after the attack sequence is over, or something like that.

Although on the technical side I'm betting the animation work would be staggering.  Every single attack sequence - which has at least four possible variations - would have to be paired up and choreographed with every other attack sequence in order to allow people to be fighting back and forth instead of taking turns.  And then there's the terrain issue, where these sequences would somehow have to avoid taking the characters through invalid terrain without breaking entirely, and...well, yeah.  I doubt it's feasible.  Even without the 5 second attack sequences and QTE movement direction choices, the terrain issue would still be a problem.  Still, it would be a nice direction to take steps in, so we can go all the way there when it does become feasible.

[SnakeCharmer]

I shouldn't have to use my movement keys during a sword fight; I should just be able to pick any of the targets in the combat area and press my attack keys, and the computer can move / jump / pirouette me around the battle zone, and animate me properly so it looks like I'm attacking with my sword like a martial arts pro.

So retarded it makes Rain Man look normal.

[Lantyssa]

I'll bet he did.  Tri was one of the 'big names' on the SWG pre-release boards.. which I'm sure he looks back on with much regret at the wasted time. 

Tryphon isn't Triforcer.

I can't speak for Tri, but I don't regret my pre-release involvement.  Nor would I mind if the combat is as interesting Force Unleashed.  I just hope they have more to do than combat, combat, combat.  It gets old, and so far we have yet to hear about any alternative systems.  (Or really much of anything.)

Which makes it really hard to get excited about this game when KoTOR combat is so 2003 and that's all they've shown us.

[Merusk]

I blame having just woken up on completly reading Typhon as Triforcer in that quote.  Because that's exactly what I did.. holy crap I'm gettin old.

[HaemishM]

A combat video to help pass the time.

I watched it and still thought ChampO. I may be broken, but that's what it reminded me of.

Sign of sure failure?

If you hit someone multiple times with a light saber and the battle isn't over after the first or second one, FAIL.

If two opponents stand in the open firing blasters at each other and hitting multiple times, FAIL.

Combat in the Star Wars universe has a very specific look and feel, none of which lends itself to MMO combat. Making it more dynamic with animation but keeping the fundamental aspect of MMO combat under the hood (i.e. opponents take many hits to take down, using old D&D style damage models where characters take goboodles of damage before death) doesn't mean the game will suck, it just means it won't be any better than anything else.

[Typhon]

Lol, I argued from this very same point in the Star Trek thread, and here I am now in the opposite camp.  But on me, hypocrisy looks good!

Yeah, oddly, seeing them having to smack something multiple times with the light saber didn't bother me in that video (I'm not sure why).  I was a bit let down that parts didn't come off the NPC robots, but whatever.  I was happy to see that force-jumping and lightning was in the game.  Clearly I'm not going to be difficult to please with this title.

[UnSub]

I shouldn't have to use my movement keys during a sword fight; I should just be able to pick any of the targets in the combat area and press my attack keys, and the computer can move / jump / pirouette me around the battle zone, and animate me properly so it looks like I'm attacking with my sword like a martial arts pro.

So retarded it makes Rain Man look normal.

Ajax pretty much described how Batman: Arkham Asylum did it's combat. It worked well there. How it would work in a multiplayer situation is a different story... it could, but I could also see the speed of combat being off-putting and any kind of dodge ability over-powered or nearly worthless.

Going back, I actually don't care about the animations in ChampO. It's just that when BioWare was talking about dynamic combat in a MMO, all of those special abilities were things I'd seen before (especially that leap towards the target and attack). As was the "heroically overcoming multiple opponents" bit. But to that end, SWOR has the advantage of classes whereas ChampO didn't - SWOR can streamline some attack pattern animations based on how they know each class will develop.

Also: I'm not expecting body pieces to fly off every time someone gets hit with a lightsaber, but those robots really should end up in parts when the Jedi execute some of those finishing moves. That they kind of just fall over was a weak moment.

[HaemishM]

Also: I'm not expecting body pieces to fly off every time someone gets hit with a lightsaber, but those robots really should end up in parts when the Jedi execute some of those finishing moves. That they kind of just fall over was a weak moment.

Yeah, THIS. It's cosmetic but could go a long way towards flavor and removing some of the "This feels like other MMOG combat" complaints I have.

[Fabricated]

In what world do people think this game isn't going to be just as bad as everything else.

The world where there's a number of talented people working on this game who have done a lot of stuff in the past that I've really liked.

I'd rather be the guy that's optimistic about a game that ends up being complete shit than the cynical fuck that pops into a topic to say "hey guys, this game's gonna suck" just so he can say "I told you so" later on.

I dunno, that's true for a lot of other genres of gaming but in MMO land that "it's gonna suck" bet is as close to even money as you can get.

edit: my ideal MMO combat type would be something like Demon's Souls, but there's probably no way to handle that with tons of people on modern hardware.

[Draegan]

There were some scenes where the animation was just ass but there were some scenes where the combat seemed pretty cool.  Maybe it's old and new footage combined.  I did see a lightsaber actually go to deflect a blaster shot, I hope that was in real time because that's somewhat different.

Not really.  SWG did it back in '03.  So did the KOTOR games and JK.

I didn't know SWG did it.  Never played the game.  But I know single player games have done it for quite a while.

[SnakeCharmer]

Yeah.  Regardless of what saber you used (1 handed, 2 handed, double bladed), it would actively block laser bolts.  Not 100 percent sure of the animation was there when you ran around, but I do know it would work if you were standing still.

[Mrbloodworth]

That blaster blocking and other things were procedural, so that is more of a modern step forward for mmos and its only been croping up in some more recent titles.

Anyway, yeah, light sabers not toasting things on first hit, also what the hell was with the "force field doping cover" dodads, FFS, you would think that with all the emphasis they put on the use of cover in earlier videos and whatnot, something like that would not exist, it only leads me to believe this network system is not breaking out of the asynchronous norm of MMO's, that shield is to block blaster fire, and obfuscate that you are, again, standing in one spot to combat something and movement and position (unless you hit a cover trigger in landscape; Cover + 5! *plays lean animation*) means jack. Same old same old.

I did get some want to play, but its star wars, I always want to play star wars, and I got some of that SWG nostalgia.


"We want combat to be like what you see in the movies, but please ignore the hundreds of saber hits and blaster bolts to the head you take"

 

[SnakeCharmer]

Cover only works for Smugglers and Imperial Agents/Assassins or whatever it's called.

Apparently cover only exists in the Star Wars universe for those two classes.

[Velorath]

In what world do people think this game isn't going to be just as bad as everything else.

The world where there's a number of talented people working on this game who have done a lot of stuff in the past that I've really liked.

I'd rather be the guy that's optimistic about a game that ends up being complete shit than the cynical fuck that pops into a topic to say "hey guys, this game's gonna suck" just so he can say "I told you so" later on.

I dunno, that's true for a lot of other genres of gaming but in MMO land that "it's gonna suck" bet is as close to even money as you can get.

True to an extent, but I think that if a lot of people here were to be honest, many of the MMO's that they think suck they still got their money's worth out of.  Most of us think WAR sucks, but a lot of us that played at launch did have a lot of fun in those first couple weeks.  A lot of us enjoyed he time we spent in AoC also.

Point being, even if SWTOR doesn't end up being very good, most of us will still end up getting more hours of enjoyment out of it than we get out of most single player games.

[Mrbloodworth]

And we will do it, together!     

[pxib]

edit: my ideal MMO combat type would be something like Demon's Souls, but there's probably no way to handle that with tons of people on modern hardware.

I don't think the trouble is so much the hardware as the latency inherent to online play and the abuse inherent to client-server systems. Visceral combat with heavy positional dependence and one-hit kills depends on split-second decisions: I see my enemy winding up for an attack and I block then step to the left, attacking her side while she's recovering. In Demon's Souls that whole action takes perhaps a second. Online -- even assuming the enemy is an NPC -- I either wait the 250ms round trip for the server to register each aspect of my finesse (so there must be at least 250ms of wiggle room in every aspect of the timing), or the server has to trust me when I say I'm just that good: I was blocking, then I stopped blocking so I could move quickly enough to flank her, then I attacked before her post-attack recovery finished. Within a second.

Add the wiggle room and not only does it feel like I'm playing under water, but without some sort of "hit point" system, instant kills against me will occasionally slip through the packet fog by no fault of my own. Trust the client instead, and I can cheat enough to insist that I always hit and never get hit. In PvP rather than PvE, every problem increases exponentially as additional players join the fray. MMO combat can't feel like a single player game -- or even like multiplayer on a dedicated network. Basic cheating and the unbeatable speed of light will keep getting in the way. Designers (and public relations reps) need to stop pretending it can.

MMO combat can be improved, mind you. It absolutely sucks right now. I just think that improvement will come through abstractions like variable auto-attacks and defensive stances rather than by making each of a thousand twitchy keypresses count. Also, fewer flashy spell effects and generic explosions, and better dodge/block/evade/parry animations please.

[Fordel]

The movie they released yesterday made me realize how awesome Blizzard's character animation designers are compared to, well, just about any other company.  The SWTOR animations seem to be missing frames, all jerky like.  It bothered me so much that I'm not 100% sure I'd buy this. 

Blizzard doesn't use motion capture as far as I know, there's just a bunch of animation monkeys sitting at computers manually nudging all the limbs into place until it looks right.

[Fabricated]

edit: my ideal MMO combat type would be something like Demon's Souls, but there's probably no way to handle that with tons of people on modern hardware.

I don't think the trouble is so much the hardware as the latency inherent to online play and the abuse inherent to client-server systems. Visceral combat with heavy positional dependence and one-hit kills depends on split-second decisions: I see my enemy winding up for an attack and I block then step to the left, attacking her side while she's recovering. In Demon's Souls that whole action takes perhaps a second. Online -- even assuming the enemy is an NPC -- I either wait the 250ms round trip for the server to register each aspect of my finesse (so there must be at least 250ms of wiggle room in every aspect of the timing), or the server has to trust me when I say I'm just that good: I was blocking, then I stopped blocking so I could move quickly enough to flank her, then I attacked before her post-attack recovery finished. Within a second.

Add the wiggle room and not only does it feel like I'm playing under water, but without some sort of "hit point" system, instant kills against me will occasionally slip through the packet fog by no fault of my own. Trust the client instead, and I can cheat enough to insist that I always hit and never get hit. In PvP rather than PvE, every problem increases exponentially as additional players join the fray. MMO combat can't feel like a single player game -- or even like multiplayer on a dedicated network. Basic cheating and the unbeatable speed of light will keep getting in the way. Designers (and public relations reps) need to stop pretending it can.

MMO combat can be improved, mind you. It absolutely sucks right now. I just think that improvement will come through abstractions like variable auto-attacks and defensive stances rather than by making each of a thousand twitchy keypresses count. Also, fewer flashy spell effects and generic explosions, and better dodge/block/evade/parry animations please.

Well, Demon's Souls handles 5 people doing this with a number of NPCs controlled by the hosting PS3 (I think?). The problem comes when you extrapolate this up to like hundreds of people in any immediate area.

You could make small world sizes with population caps but then that leads to queues. You do some automated load balancing hub thing like a better version of PSO/Hellgate and then people can't play together sometimes even if they want to.

[Ingmar]

DS being on a console means it can probably afford to trust the client a lot more than a PC game can.

[Zzulo]

That video did not look too good. Without the Star Wars flavour I'd probably not even bother with this game at all if that video was any indication.

[Koyasha]

Also: I'm not expecting body pieces to fly off every time someone gets hit with a lightsaber, but those robots really should end up in parts when the Jedi execute some of those finishing moves. That they kind of just fall over was a weak moment.

Yeah, THIS. It's cosmetic but could go a long way towards flavor and removing some of the "This feels like other MMOG combat" complaints I have.

Some visual improvements like that would certainly be very nice.

Of course, with the whole "cinematic" stuff they're pushing (they need to STOP pushing that, because it looks terrible and not anything at all like the movies) I would be far more in favor of the combat looking the way we've discussed previously, including the Star Trek thread, where you don't score tons of hits on a target and consume gobs of HP.  But even just seeing some really cool lightsaber finishing moves, slicing through people and droids, leaving cauterized wounds and glowing molten metal, would be a nice touch.

But overall the way the combat looks is probably going to be a minimal issue for me.  I liked KOTOR well enough, and it suffered from both these problems - whacking things with lightsabers many, many times, and no visible damage other than things slumping to the ground.  The visual appearance of combat is not going to be a major deciding factor - the rest of the game, and especially the story elements, will either hold up, or it won't.  It would just be a really nice touch, if these things were improved, that would make the game really stand out.

[pxib]

Well, Demon's Souls handles 5 people doing this with a number of NPCs controlled by the hosting PS3 (I think?). The problem comes when you extrapolate this up to like hundreds of people in any immediate area.

You could make small world sizes with population caps but then that leads to queues. You do some automated load balancing hub thing like a better version of PSO/Hellgate and then people can't play together sometimes even if they want to.

In addition to what Ingmar says about trustworthy console clients, matchmaking in not-so-massively multiplayer games often explicitly excludes individuals with high pings. Additionally, the matchmaker can decide which player will act as "server" based on how nicely that distributes relative pings... and on a console, that's the the only concern: hardware is functionally identical. If a MMOG rejects folks with high pings, it loses customers.

[WindupAtheist]

Two named Jedi Masters. Know what killed the no-name Jedi?

(image snipped)

The comedy relief of bad guy robots.

Know what killed the survivors?

(image snipped)

The worst goddamn shots in the galaxy.

Being a Jedi doesn't count for shit. Being a main character does.

Ahem.

A regular guy can theoretically kill a Jedi one-on-one if he brings all the weapons in the world and is a total badass, but you'll have to rummage through the EU to find examples of it.

I don't really think people who rolled Stormtrooper would enjoy having to form a ten man raid or something to kill one dude who rolled Jedi.

[Ratman_tf]

Ahem.

A regular guy can theoretically kill a Jedi one-on-one if he brings all the weapons in the world and is a total badass, but you'll have to rummage through the EU to find examples of it.

I don't really think people who rolled Stormtrooper would enjoy having to form a ten man raid or something to kill one dude who rolled Jedi.

And I'm saying they don't have to set it up like that, unless they're buy into some gonzo EU garbage where a single Jedi can fart and blow away planets with his force powered gas cloud.

[Soln]

Given the fact that when SWG finally patched in Jedi they did fucking KINETIC damage with their sabers I don't think it's a big deal we're expected to hit anything n+1 times.