SWTOR

[Sheepherder]

I think if I have Zangief at 5% energy and then drop the controller, Zangief should just be knocked out anyway. Hur hur.

Most console games automatically pause when a controller is disconnected, so yeah, good argument.

It's not the developers' responsibility to make sure the game mechanics compensate for your retarded significant other/sibling/dog.

And how about when the one of the hops between AT&T and your WAN decides to drop your connection, experiences significant packet loss, or slows to a crawl for whatever reason (Or the server, not that that ever happens )?  I imagine the player should be forced to pay the reckoning anyways, because it builds character, just like mashing left click every second does?

[SnakeCharmer]

Cost vs benefit ratio.  Yours is out of whack.

If devs spent the time necessary to safeguard the game against the player dying from outside factors, the game would probably never launch.

You're fighting a completely retarded argument.

Which I just now posted in.   

[Triforcer]

I've actually devised the perfect MMO, which ensures that nobody can EVER be inconvenienced or griefed.

(1)  NPC group members.  That way, no asshats can ever make you wait on a group.

(2)  Autoattack that gets stronger if you get DCed, ensuring an autowin against anything.

(3)  Also, to guard against people annoying you in chat or hacking your CC or making you wait for a quest spawn, the game will be played offline in its entirety.  You never have to connect to the net!

Can anyone think of a name for this type of ultimate anti-grief MMO?  I really think its the final evolution of the genre.   

[Velorath]

And how about when the one of the hops between AT&T and your WAN decides to drop your connection, experiences significant packet loss, or slows to a crawl for whatever reason (Or the server, not that that ever happens )?  I imagine the player should be forced to pay the reckoning anyways, because it builds character, just like mashing left click every second does?

Pay the reckoning?  Did we travel back in time 10 years, or are you still playing some hardcore MMO where the death penalty is something more extreme than having to walk 2 minutes to get back to where you died?

[Sheepherder]

Cost vs benefit ratio.  Yours is out of whack.

If devs spent the time necessary to safeguard the game against the player dying from outside factors, the game would probably never launch.

If they spent time trying to safeguard the game from the player dying from outside factors not necessarily in their control, we'd see signs, like the game suddenly having the capacity to automatically detect when the player has been dropped through the world and correcting it by placing the player in a nearby graveyard next to their corpse because they lagged while zoning from one server to another.  Or they might disable the Nagle algorithm client-side because it conflicts with delayed TCP ack and causes high latency on PC's that don't have it turned off manually via the registry.  Or they might reduce the degree of precision (in respects to updating player location and such) required by the server on boss fights that have particularly high bandwidth requirements because it is causing players on substandard connections to lag or disconnect.  Or we might see them add a limited queueing system for spells server-side.

I'll keep looking for these signs, in case one day one of them might appear in patch notes or developer posts and vindicate my opinion that they do in fact care about the effect of external factors upon their service.  In the meantime, would you care to explain what exactly is costly about implementing an auto-attack?

Pay the reckoning?  Did we travel back in time 10 years, or are you still playing some hardcore MMO where the death penalty is something more extreme than having to walk 2 minutes to get back to where you died?

You don't think the old-fashioned non-flying corpse runs in places like Feralas are the most bullshit mechanic ever conceived to waste people's time?

[Lakov_Sanite]

Lack of auto-attack makes your game not only feel sluggish and boring but also annoys the player when they have to constantly click buttons.  This has nothing to do with lag.

[Velorath]

Lack of auto-attack makes your game not only feel sluggish and boring but also annoys the player when they have to constantly click buttons. 

That largely depends on a lot of other factors, as well as personal preference.  It's by no means an absolute truth.

[Sheepherder]

That largely depends on a lot of other factors, as well as personal preference.  It's by no means an absolute truth.

You still have to conveniently forget lessons learned though.  Simply removing auto-attack and leaving instant attacks in place is not significantly better than removing instant attacks and making everything based off of the AA swing timer.  You're getting the same effect in the end except that the instant attack case is more liable to be fucked with by bunnyhopping antics and people will neckbeard about how much more "visceral" it feels.

[DLRiley]

Can anyone imagine playing Aion without auto attacking? Making the player pay attention to his every action assumes that doing so is in fun doses. Well that's how games designed in 2009 function. But  mmo's are "special".

[SnakeCharmer]

If they spent time trying to safeguard the game from the player dying from outside factors not necessarily in their control, we'd see signs, like the game suddenly having the capacity to automatically detect when the player has been dropped through the world and correcting it by placing the player in a nearby graveyard next to their corpse because they lagged while zoning from one server to another.  Or they might disable the Nagle algorithm client-side because it conflicts with delayed TCP ack and causes high latency on PC's that don't have it turned off manually via the registry.  Or they might reduce the degree of precision (in respects to updating player location and such) required by the server on boss fights that have particularly high bandwidth requirements because it is causing players on substandard connections to lag or disconnect.  Or we might see them add a limited queueing system for spells server-side.

I'll keep looking for these signs, in case one day one of them might appear in patch notes or developer posts and vindicate my opinion that they do in fact care about the effect of external factors upon their service.  In the meantime, would you care to explain what exactly is costly about implementing an auto-attack?

Number 1:  It's an exploiters dream, making modem hacking even more prominent.
Number 2:  It happens so infrequently, it's not even worth devoting a minute of a developers time on.  I think my intardweb has gone out while gaming maybe once in the last year.  Maybe a handful of times overall.  The same could be said for my power.

It's just not that big of a deal for 99.9999999999999999999999999 percent of the people, therefore, the cost vs ROI isn't worth it.

[Velorath]

That largely depends on a lot of other factors, as well as personal preference.  It's by no means an absolute truth.

You still have to conveniently forget lessons learned though.  Simply removing auto-attack and leaving instant attacks in place is not significantly better than removing instant attacks and making everything based off of the AA swing timer. 

I don't think the argument you're making here has anything to do with the post of mine you just quoted.

[Furiously]

EQ1 had this. It effectively turned your pc into the base class npc. For fighters this worked fine. We actually had a disconnected main tank on nagafen for a couple minutes. (course he got the killing blow, was not part of the raid. And no chest)

I recall there being some small exploit of it as well. I always though mmo's needed a pause raid button.

[tmp]

With all this raging on auto-attack having to be there because MMOs keep implementing without any second thought the stuff Noah brought on his ark... isn't the auto-attack also something that comes straight from the MUDs and which was there because typing 'attack kobold' over and over would take slightly more time than sane person was willing to accept, in that particular environment?

[Bzalthek]

Auto-attack is really just a preference thing.  Some people like being in complete control of their character, micro-managing every move.  Some people like to think their character would react logically without direct input while the player guides the important actions like special attacks and movement (though you could include movement in the auto-routines to the extent of maintaining viable melee combat).  A large part of the RPG aspect is you are assuming the role of an individual in another world.  Allowances must be made for the lack of a pause button and changing the DM into an unfeeling program.  Having your character suddenly become a quadrapalegic without immediate instructions from the player is kind of retarded though.  Auto-attack, however, should be minimal.  If you are AFK and a mob jumps you, auto-attack should not in any way be able to save you (not adjusting for level disparities, probably if it would net exp, it would kill you).  If you have Kobold_01 down to 2hp and you are full health, disconnecting should not let the little bugger, barely hanging on for dear life, gum your ankle till you die.

[Lantyssa]

Numtini mentioned it a while ago, but did everyone miss not having auto-attack in CoH?  With most games I like auto-attack simply because I find the combat system itself boring.  In CoH I never missed it because combat was actually fun.

[Malakili]

Numtini mentioned it a while ago, but did everyone miss not having auto-attack in CoH?  With most games I like auto-attack simply because I find the combat system itself boring.  In CoH I never missed it because combat was actually fun.

I actually enjoyed CO's combat better than CoH, although I think I might be in the minority here.  It was a very flexible system, so you could play it more like a "traditional" MMO combat, or even make it play a little like a third person shooter.

[Bzalthek]

I played CoH, and I disagree, but that's just my personal tastes.

[Merusk]

CoH had its own version of autoattack, even if you didn't use it and it wasn't advertised as such.  As a scapper I always rightclicked  to autocast my lowest stamina skill.  Ta da.. autoattack.

[Sheepherder]

Number 1:  It's an exploiters dream, making modem hacking even more prominent.
Number 2:  It happens so infrequently, it's not even worth devoting a minute of a developers time on.  I think my intardweb has gone out while gaming maybe once in the last year.  Maybe a handful of times overall.  The same could be said for my power.

It's just not that big of a deal for 99.9999999999999999999999999 percent of the people, therefore, the cost vs ROI isn't worth it.

Okay, apparently subtlety just doesn't do it for you.

automatically detect when the player has been dropped through the world... disable the Nagle algorithm client-side... reduce the degree of precision required by the server on boss fights

one of them might appear in patch

Again, Blizzard can and does design in ways that are tailored to as large a segment of the mass audience as possible (EDIT: And your average broadband can still be pretty dodgy), this is surprising or something.

I don't think the argument you're making here has anything to do with the post of mine you just quoted.

It's a segue from the "personal preference" bit into various pitfalls that way.  Make a game without auto-attack, and people will eventually be pissed that they have to push the button for the lowest common denominator attack type.  Make it work as an instant attack, and people will be pissed when they have to do keyboard gymnastics for pvp.  Make it some sort of queued attack system and people will complain that their attacks aren't instant.

[Velorath]

It's a segue from the "personal preference" bit into various pitfalls that way.  Make a game without auto-attack, and people will eventually be pissed that they have to push the button for the lowest common denominator attack type.  Make it work as an instant attack, and people will be pissed when they have to do keyboard gymnastics for pvp.  Make it some sort of queued attack system and people will complain that their attacks aren't instant.

I said it's a mix of personal preference, as well as other factors (meaning the overall combat design).  What you're saying there doesn't really contradict that.  In fact all you seem to be saying is that you can't make everybody happy, and people are always going to find something to bitch about.

[Sheepherder]

I'm not trying to contradict that point, it's not wrong.  You're still talking about gameplay that micromanagement heavy though, which would irritate people if there weren't mechanisms in place for them to pick and modify the pace of their game.

[DLRiley]

Auto-attack is really just a preference thing. 

Bullshit. Its not a preference, mmo's in there current form don't support the type of combat that requires 100% user interaction.

[Fordel]

Numtini mentioned it a while ago, but did everyone miss not having auto-attack in CoH?  With most games I like auto-attack simply because I find the combat system itself boring.  In CoH I never missed it because combat was actually fun.

CoH combat is pretty bad until you get enough attack powers to fill the gaps.

[Lantyssa]

That's a design flaw with leveling and ability distribution, not the combat system.

[Mattemeo]

CoH combat is pretty bad until you get enough attack powers to fill the gaps.

The day WoW's melee combat works in any shape or form in as intuitive and visceral way as CoH's melee combat, I'll be a very happy bunny. Not being able to auto-follow anything beyond a team-member in WoW drives me up the fucking wall. Mobs constantly running through you like you were stealth-fodder in Thidranke in DAoC 7 fucking years ago hasn't gotten old, it climbed the curtain and joined the choir invisible way back when.

[Bzalthek]

Auto-attack is really just a preference thing.

Bullshit. Its not a preference, mmo's in there current form don't support the type of combat that requires 100% user interaction.

Well, A) When I said preference, I wasn't implying most MMOs don't adhere to the auto-attack method, but whether you want auto-attack or not is indeed a preference and B) There are MMOs which do not use auto-attack, you trolled FE enough you should know this.

[DLRiley]

FE selling point is the crafting. Chronicles of Spellborn and Age of Conan didn't have auto attack and they failed miserably. Not saying that auto attack = success but putting Gears of War into World of Warcraft isn't going to keep subs. Merely attaching a action game user interface to the standard mmo design will usually bore the shit out of your playerbase a shit ton faster than keeping the same old same old in both user interface and design. No one prefers auto attack! Please you might as tell players that you design a game where they can't jump. Only in a handful of genres auto attack or simply not having 100% control of your character (to the point where no input from you doesn't move the character an inch) is acceptable. Mmo's being one of them by the very nature of the design.

[Malakili]

Mmo's being one of them by the very nature of the design.

What is this "very" nature of MMO design, or are you referring just to diku MMOs?

[DLRiley]

What is this "very" nature of MMO design, or are you referring just to diku MMOs?

Considering the lack of mainstream MMo's that aren't dikus, yes I am talking about diku MMOs.

[Venkman]

Auto-attack is really just a preference thing. 

Bullshit. Its not a preference, mmo's in there current form don't support the type of combat that requires 100% user interaction.

I rarely play melee classes, so maybe I've got a big experience hole. But I don't understand this assumption that all MMOs are autoattack.

I am almost always pressing a special action ability. Earlier games had it more as an option (song twisting in EQ1, Smite Clerics in DAoC, specials in SWG), but I'm struggling to think of how I'd play a Fire Mage on autoattack in WoW, or how I'd do it as a Sorcerer in Aion, or any caster or ranged, or anything requiring positioning.

So outside of the pure tank role, who all's still autoattacking in this day and age in diku MMOs.

[Fordel]

Your making the mistake of assuming special attacks replace auto attacks. This is not the case in WoW, special attacks fire off independently of the auto attack sequence.

[Venkman]

Which again I go back to Mages. I could choose to fire my wand, but that was always just a stats slot or a out-of-mana fight ender. The only autoattack I had was my staff and why would I ever be in range to use that?

I think my Aion Sorcerer had a servicable range DD off the staff I'd occasionally use. And my SWG pistol and then carbine guy was more auto than special. I don't remember having autoattack at all in WAR. I mentioned Smite Cleric because that and the EQ1 Bard were probably my closest direct experience with autoattack, where I was in melee range swinging while casting specials.

Maybe I'm still missing something?

[DLRiley]

Nukers can't autoattack you to death  . But the "involvement" maybe isn't all there in comparison to an action game. For example imagining have to aim all your nukes. Generally the removal of auto attack insist on a more active system, but that is rarely preferable in a (diku) mmo...

[Venkman]

But that's what I'm trying to understand. How many people are having an "autoattack with options" experience versus those who don't really have an autoattack experience at all?

Casters, healers, pet classes, hybrids... like I asked above: aside from the main tank role in a group, who's on autoattack only?

[Sheepherder]

Casters, healers, pet classes, hybrids... like I asked above: aside from the main tank role in a group, who's on autoattack only?

Nobody, including the tank, since most tanks have offensive abilities.  AA only would just be silly.

Most classes have varying levels of automation, some of the micromanaged classes you list could be given the option to have concurrent autocasting/attacking in the same way that WoW hunters do, but developers generally try to cover all the bases in terms of play style.