SWTOR

[eldaec]

You people need to quit moaning until you've tried applying to a GOA beta.

Or tried interacting with their websites in any way at all.

[Signe]

Why?  What happens?  (I don't want to find out for myself!)

[UnSub]

You people need to quit moaning until you've tried applying to a GOA beta.

Or tried interacting with their websites in any way at all.

Nahhh - we'll complain about the beta application process not working while trying desperately to successfully apply for the 15th time. It's only an alt-tab from one to the other.

[WindupAtheist]

From what I was ever able to discern, Leurocian always struck me as fairly competent. The things he was responsible for in UO were well-conceived, fun, and functional. I'm pretty sure he was the one behind paragon monsters, and the AI revamp that saw things like monsters healing themselves and animating nearby corpses with necromancy. He deserves a crack at a non-ancient game.

[Cyrrex]

Once I realized that I had to wait for the validation email from signing up to their site (which you always have to do, duh), sign up was pretty simple.  It took me a while to realize that the problem was me.

[Fordel]

From the desk of "well duh", the next class announced is:

http://www.swtor.com/info/holonet/classes/jedi-knight

[Malakili]

From the desk of "well duh", the next class announced is:

http://www.swtor.com/info/holonet/classes/jedi-knight

Shocking.

Has anyone been paying attention to this lately?  Has there been any indication that this isn't a single player game with optional co-op?

[Kail]

Has anyone been paying attention to this lately?  Has there been any indication that this isn't a single player game with optional co-op?

Yes.  Single player games you only have to pay for once.

[Kageh]

From the desk of "well duh", the next class announced is:

http://www.swtor.com/info/holonet/classes/jedi-knight

Shocking.

Has anyone been paying attention to this lately?  Has there been any indication that this isn't a single player game with optional co-op?

I've been watching some footage last month, I think it was from PAX, but not sure. It looked very much like NWN2 or BG2 (haven't played Mass Effect so it probably looked like ME too, I just can't tell), story-wise, in exactly the manner you suggest. One of the characters was totally in control of the conversation and the quest options, and the other was just standing by. So in theory, every PUG guy could totally fubar your quests and there's nothing you can do about it. I assume you have the option to repeat everything with you being the "leading man", but no idea how it is implemented exactly.

[Triforcer]

To be fair, I think they've stated it isn't going to work exactly like that (i.e., group leader makes binding choices for all).  They way I see it, they have the following options-

(1)  Leader makes choice that determines the physical outcome of the quest, but others can separately make the "other" choice and (while still playing physically in the leader's world) get the lightside/darkside point benefit (or the loot, or branching quest, etc.) of their "private" choice.

(2)  Same as (1), except the "binding" choice is made by majority vote of the group.

(3)  Everyone really is bound by the leader's choice, or a majority vote (both in terms of physical outcome, and in terms of loot/quest/lightside-darkside point consquences).  If you don't like it, tough luck. 

(4)  Everyone makes a separate choice, and are shunted into their own "choice phase" with other group members (if any) who made the same choice.  The larger group is broken up. 


The problem is that (3) is obviously nerdrage inducing and would kill grouping, and (4) obliterates the idea of a multiplayer game.

(1) and/or (2) are the most likely, but you still face a big problem- people aren't watching the story outcome they chose.  Getting the loot/quests/etc. from their private choice isn't enough for that type of player if you don't see it happening- you still aren't getting to see "your" story.

Prediction?  (5)- this isn't a multiplayer game, except for bank chat and PvP arenas. 

[Sky]

One can hope.

[UnSub]

I thought option 2 had been confirmed. Obviously it might change in alpha / beta, but I thought any choices were put to a group vote and majority rules.

[Cadaverine]

I don't get how any of those option looks good, in any way, to anyone other than a dedicated group that are coming from some other game so that everyone is on the same page from the get-go.  Otherwise, it's just a complete clusterfuck of strangers butting heads, all trying to go a different way at once.

Barring some sort of mechanic where only the leader has their quest/storyline/whatever advanced, I just don't see how they expect this end any other way than badly, and even then, it's still totally asinine.

[WindupAtheist]

It's Bioware. All the choices are going to be...

A) I saved your kittens, ma'am. Now let's have cookies.
B) I raped your kittens to death and now I'm going to kill you.

Their LFG channel will be full of "level 40 bounty hunter LF dark side group for shuttle quest" and that will be enough.

[Kageh]

Don't forget option C), for the "lawful neutral" jedis: "I saved your kittens ma'am. Surely there's a money reward for this?". 

I can imagine it being option 2 from Triforcer's listing, but the details as to how exactly they think this could work are still not obvious to me. And what the options to redo the choice/story if you have been overruled by the group vote are.

[Venkman]

I am guessing that group quests will only impact the story progression of the group leader. Typical MMO stuff: LFG for Quest X. The difference is that your subsequent quest options will change based on your choices. Nobody else in the group will have their subsequent quests impacted though.

I just can't see any other system surviving through beta to launch. Too much nerd rage from existing MMOers who are conditioned to no accountability at all outside of social connections. And while I'm assuming there'll be a good amount of people coming to SWTOR that aren't coming from WoW, I'm also guessing most of those will come after launch due to marketing campaigns rather than for beta, since most times that's mostly MMOers.

So there's a) a good idea; b) a good idea for SWTOR; and, c) a good idea for MMOers refining SWTOR before everyone else shows up.

Same thing happened to EQ2. The game had lots of casual promises culled by their focus on getting Legends-server and megaguilds in to the beta as part of their marketing. What's that scientific principle that says you can't observe something without affecting it in some form during that observation?

[Surlyboi]

Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.

[Venkman]

Thanks, yea, that was it.

[UnSub]

Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.

Also: the Hawthorne Effect, which applies when the subjects know they are being observed i.e. mega-guilds worked overtime to push their views when they knew those views were being considered.

[Triforcer]

Rogue...er, Imperial Agent- revealed!

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=86536

So we have our Sith stealth class now.  

EDIT:  Its a sniping stealth class, if screenshots can be believed.  Someone alert the Battlefield Heroes forums, stat.  

[schild]

Rogue...er, Imperial Agent- revealed!

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=86536

So we have our Sith stealth class now. 

EDIT:  Its a sniping stealth class, if screenshots can be believed.  Someone alert the Battlefield 1942 forums, stat. 

Asian, Mexican/Black Guy, White Girl, and Chin, the Caucasian Jaw Master - all in attendance and reporting for duty.

The screenshots for this game are like a United Colors of Benetton ad.

[UnSub]

So the Sith and Jedi Knight are going to be snogging in an upcoming picture then?

(That's right! A United Colors of Benetton joke that was topical in the early 1990s! Zing!)

[Mattemeo]

Asian, Mexican/Black Guy, White Girl, and Chin, the Caucasian Jaw Master - all in attendance and reporting for duty.

The screenshots for this game are like a United Colors of Benetton ad.

I think the prospect of Racism in the Starwars universe is a rather bigger picture affair than the skin colours of one species.

That said, fuck Humans. When am I going to get to roll a goddamn Jawa Jedi in one of these games?

[Lantyssa]

I know, right?

[Venkman]

Racism's always been a part of the Star Wars universe. Though it mostly becomes more obvious in the classic trilogy once someone points it out and you go back and watch them

As to the screenshots, I think it's funny how hard this game is trying to look like the CN CGI series, even though it really can't connect with it in any meaningful sense story-wise.

[Sky]

Tusken Raiders are obviously muslims and the Jawa are the Jews. Duh.

[Cadaverine]

[SnakeCharmer]

According to the investors meeting, SWTOR is right around the corner with Mass Effect 2:

Right now, we are tracking right on the deal model that we put together for that transaction. The recent release of Dragon Age, and with Mass Effect 2 and Star Wars right in front of us, it appears that we are going to hit our goals on what we sign up to in that acquisition.

Source

[LK]

Rogue...er, Imperial Agent- revealed!

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=86536

So we have our Sith stealth class now. 

EDIT:  Its a sniping stealth class, if screenshots can be believed.  Someone alert the Battlefield 1942 forums, stat. 

Asian, Mexican/Black Guy, White Girl, and Chin, the Caucasian Jaw Master - all in attendance and reporting for duty.

The screenshots for this game are like a United Colors of Benetton ad.

That could be any game right there, not just Star Wars. Nothing distinctive or standing out, especially the sniper-rifle looking equipment.

[Kageh]

I found the screenshots actually cool, from a technical point of view. Especially the backgrounds, although looking very photoshopped. I'm curious how good that actually looks in action, because the live footage from PAX didn't look that good by far.

[WindupAtheist]

As an aside, I've found that I prefer the relatively low-fidelity reputation system of Baldur's Gate to the basically toothless sort you find in KOTOR and pretty much everywhere else anymore. You really had to do major shit to make your reputation move in BG. The game didn't care if you made smartass remarks or asked about payment for quests. But when it did move, it was important.

I mean I understand why it changed. Later games have a lot of cutscenes and such that need to stay basically the same regardless of what you do, otherwise they have to produce twice as much content. I understand why I couldn't just turn around and stab Carth five minutes into the game, but I still wish I could have.

[Ard]

As an aside, I've found that I prefer the relatively low-fidelity reputation system of Baldur's Gate to the basically toothless sort you find in KOTOR and pretty much everywhere else anymore. You really had to do major shit to make your reputation move in BG. The game didn't care if you made smartass remarks or asked about payment for quests. But when it did move, it was important.

Unless I'm not remembering correctly, couldn't you just donate to the temples to raise reputation positively up to a point, at least, and pickpocket to go down?  I don't remember it being all that hard to shift reputation in Baldur's Gate.

[WindupAtheist]

Pickpocketing didn't affect reputation. It would make the mark go hostile if it were botched, in which case you'd probably kill them and eat the reputation penalty for murder, but that was it. Temple donations I mostly used as an "oh shit" button for when my normally low reputation slipped into "guards attack on sight" territory. I'll agree they were way too cheap for late in the game when you're swimming in cash, but around 2k to go from Hannibal Lecter to neutral was fine for the early game.

What I mean basically is that in BG you were free to shoot your mouth off a bit and make the occasional dick move without the game flashing "EVIL POINTS GAINED" everytime you stepped on a bug. But if you really did go hog-wild, good or neutral party members would up and leave (if not attack you) and guards and bounty hunters would gank you to smithereens. There was no expectation that you could go max-evil the whole game without it being inconvenient. At least they made you slink off to the temple to donate now and then.

Compared to KOTOR where I'm standing there in front of the Jedi Council with my glowing orange eyes, black robe, and red lightsaber, the blood of freshly stomped kittens on my boots while they go "Okay bro we're just gonna ignore all this, because writing a second script where we're not idiots would have blown our budget. Go forth, noble Jedi, we totally don't see the inevitable backstab coming."

[Merusk]

Yeah, I always found that goddamn annoying, too.  Here I am a force-choking lighting-wielding fuckstick and the Jedi Council is trating me like some noob Force user, and not a Sith Lord with a mindwipe who's slipping into old tendencies with glee.  There should have been a *chops council to bits* option many places.

[Venkman]

Yea, this is a really very valid point. At what price "immersion". It's sort of uncanny valley as applied to audio. I'd rather have a game with no VO and more choices. But publishers don't think that way.