SWTOR

[Ratman_tf]

So...

...Those blasters really don't have much for stopping force, do they?

About as much as any game that uses hitpoints and guns.  Two systems I hate seeing mixed, even if the game is awesome.

Is it any better than melee combat? Protip: Being stabbed through the brain with a sharp metal object does not do 1D6+12 hit points of damage. It kills a person dead.

[schild]

Hating on Star Wars if pretty fun, given that it's the most overrated anything of all time, ever.

Somehow, that's an understatement.

Every country has their thing though, like Japan has Dragon Quest, and England has British Football Teams.

[Malakili]

So...

...Those blasters really don't have much for stopping force, do they?

About as much as any game that uses hitpoints and guns.  Two systems I hate seeing mixed, even if the game is awesome.

Is it any better than melee combat? Protip: Being stabbed through the brain with a sharp metal object does not do 1D6+12 hit points of damage. It kills a person dead.

Shit, didn't we have this discussion in this thread already, like 50 pages ago.

[tmp]

Is it any better than melee combat? Protip: Being stabbed through the brain with a sharp metal object does not do 1D6+12 hit points of damage. It kills a person dead.

It's only a problem when the mudflation pushes character HPs above a dozen...

of course, that's entirely aside from the catch which is how much fun it is to be Greedo when Han gets to shoot first.

[Kageru]

Which D&D addressed long back in terms of saying non-fatal damage indicates a desperate dodge, parry or a superficial wound. The "blade through the head" happens when the hit points run out. And this could be done in MMO's. It would look a lot more dramatic if the opponent visually avoided all but the fatal blows. At least for smaller creatures, very large mobs could still be expected to sit and take it and would look silly dodging anyway.

It all comes down to money for the animations I guess, and secondly the players screaming "why am I not hitting him?" if they don't see each shot connect.

[Kail]

It all comes down to money for the animations I guess, and secondly the players screaming "why am I not hitting him?" if they don't see each shot connect.

The shots would still be connecting; there's already a mechanic in place for misses and dodges and so on.  You'd just have to show people getting hit in the shoulder or whatever (which is difficult when you've got mobs and PCs of varying sizes).  Even then, though, it looks rediculous if your group is pelting the guy with thirty laser blasts and they somehow all miss his vitals.  And the fact that melee attacks in MMOs usually pass completely through the mob regardless doesn't help.

[Malakili]

It all comes down to money for the animations I guess, and secondly the players screaming "why am I not hitting him?" if they don't see each shot connect.

The shots would still be connecting; there's already a mechanic in place for misses and dodges and so on.  You'd just have to show people getting hit in the shoulder or whatever (which is difficult when you've got mobs and PCs of varying sizes).  Even then, though, it looks rediculous if your group is pelting the guy with thirty laser blasts and they somehow all miss his vitals.  And the fact that melee attacks in MMOs usually pass completely through the mob regardless doesn't help.

At the end of the day, I think the point is mostly that would a complex system of animations and whatever else is needed to really make this happen isn't really going to help boxes get off the shelves and monthly fees get paid.  Is it neat to see in videos, definitely, but realistically, its still reducing a bar to 0 to defeat an enemy, and its a hell of a lot less work to do it the "normal" way.

[Kail]

I think the point is mostly that would a complex system of animations and whatever else is needed to really make this happen isn't really going to help boxes get off the shelves and monthly fees get paid.

Not that I disagree, but the day MMO developers start developing games which will move more boxes, instead of games which will look prettier in videos, will be the day they stop designing games that can't be played on computers more than a year old.

[Sheepherder]

The shots would still be connecting; there's already a mechanic in place for misses and dodges and so on.  You'd just have to show people getting hit in the shoulder or whatever (which is difficult when you've got mobs and PCs of varying sizes).

It actually isn't.  Most of the formats for 3D models support data nodes which can be used as attachment points for animated effects and other models.  You don't have to have a massive lookup table or some such shit for finding where the monster's forehead is when that data can be included in the header of the model file.

The actual hard part would be making it work game mechanic wise.  Realistically you'd want the combat to look like a gunfight with a lot of dodging and acrobatics going on that gets finished when one guy zeroes in and scores a few direct hits, rather than two guys with piss poor aim blasting at the guy standing 30 yards away in the hopes of hitting.  Rename health "focus" or something in that respect and include a whole slew of evasive abilities and stances that buff mitigation or return focus that you'd expect in a space opera.

[Fordel]

That's something that is disappointing me with these SWTOR game play videos. I was hoping all of the Blaster classes would be able to make use of cover the way the Smuggler does. The Bounty Hunter and the Trooper just kinda stand around all retarded and shooting.

Basically, on top of the animations being shitty, it just looks dumb on a practical level. Super elite HAVOC Squad Trooper heads into battle RedCoat style. 

[lamaros]

The speculation about how the game is a failure because we've seen a couple of scripted clips showing off one aspect in an alpha build every single thing they have said about the game, and everything they have showed from the game, reeks of 'we have no fucking idea what we're doing, but we're absurdly self-confident anyway' is pretty spot on, if tiresome.

It's not too early. The only thing that could make it more certain that this game is going to fail would be schild going Hellgate/I Am Legend froth over it.

[Margalis]

That's something that is disappointing me with these SWTOR game play videos. I was hoping all of the Blaster classes would be able to make use of cover the way the Smuggler does. The Bounty Hunter and the Trooper just kinda stand around all retarded and shooting.

It's faithful to the source material.

Edit: The thing about the animations is: this is not a low budget game. Earth Defense Force animations make sense in EDF, which was made for little money and sold at a budget price. A "AAA" title should be able to do a little bit better.

Edit2: The idea of other people in my group outvoting me and choosing quest options I don't like strikes me as inane.

[Ratman_tf]

So...

...Those blasters really don't have much for stopping force, do they?

About as much as any game that uses hitpoints and guns.  Two systems I hate seeing mixed, even if the game is awesome.

Is it any better than melee combat? Protip: Being stabbed through the brain with a sharp metal object does not do 1D6+12 hit points of damage. It kills a person dead.

Shit, didn't we have this discussion in this thread already, like 50 pages ago.

Probably.

[Ratman_tf]

Which D&D addressed long back in terms of saying non-fatal damage indicates a desperate dodge, parry or a superficial wound. The "blade through the head" happens when the hit points run out.

1. Which is bullshit gamespeak for "This is totally unrealistic, but fun, so just pretend something less ridiculous is happening."

2. If you're going to wank damage mechanics that way, you can do the same with gun wounds. 

[Samprimary]

Hating on Star Wars if pretty fun, given that it's the most overrated anything of all time, ever.

we have to give star wars credit for some things. At its best it's a Cool Engine that results in really fun shit like X Wing v. Tie Fighter.

[Margalis]

Given the number of Star Wars games that have been made the existence of a few good ones is just statistics.

I would give the credit to X Wing v Tie Fighter to the people who worked on that game rather than the incredible power of a movie series that features a galactic empire being beaten by logs rolled by teddy bears.

[Count Nerfedalot]

About that voting thing, what happens when the vote is a tie?  Everyone just goes home and nothing happens at all?  The leader kicks someone out (if nobody drops voluntarily) and calls a re-vote?

It's gonna happen , so they must have SOME mechanism for handling it!

[schild]

About that voting thing, what happens when the vote is a tie?  Everyone just goes home and nothing happens at all?  The leader kicks someone out (if nobody drops voluntarily) and calls a re-vote?

It's gonna happen , so they must have SOME mechanism for handling it!

Teams can only be made from an odd number of players.

[Velorath]

About that voting thing, what happens when the vote is a tie?  Everyone just goes home and nothing happens at all?  The leader kicks someone out (if nobody drops voluntarily) and calls a re-vote?

It's gonna happen , so they must have SOME mechanism for handling it!

Seems like the easiest way to handle it would be to go with whatever the group leader voted for.

[HaemishM]

Trooper gameplay footage from PAX (starts at 0:15 or so)

That looks like SHIT. Not even getting into the whole mob warping, crappy, stiff animations. What makes it look like shit is that it appears to play exactly like every other MMO ever. Hit hotkeys, global cooldowns, stand in the MIDDLE OF THE FUCKING OPEN while guys with guns shoot at you. The world does not need another company dropping $100 million on another shitty MMOG clone, only with STARWARZ and OMGZORSVOICEOVERS!

[DLRiley]

No seriously your mad at this and aion gets a pass? seriously?

[amiable]

No seriously your mad at this and aion gets a pass? seriously?

From a technical standpoint Aion is a beautiful game that runs smoothly, it just has crap mechanics.  The animations for TOR look wretched and since we know nothing at all about gameplay I would say the criticism of TOR is about right. 

And that is not factoring in a lot of residual anger folks here have toward SWG...

[Yegolev]

I think some of us are factoring that in.

[HaemishM]

No seriously your mad at this and aion gets a pass? seriously?

Normally I wouldn't respond to an idiot, but I'm in a giving mood.

I expect nothing whatsoever out of Aion. In fact, I am so incredibly uninterested in Aion that I could give two rat fuck's if it comes out and takes over the fucking world. It just doesn't interest me one bit. It's a pretty Korean grind version of WAR and DAOC with winged characters. That's as much enthusiasm as I can make out of the game.

SWTOR, OTOH and YMMV, is pouring a metric fuckton of money down on another Star Wars MMOG which looks for all intents and purposes to take the worst parts of MMOG content, over-emphasis on questing, and overuse of instancing and turning it into a mediocre snoozefest. The fact that it's using what should be THE best setting of any Star Wars setting (Old Republic) in terms of MMOG licensing to do this, and repeating the mistakes of EQ2's voiceover idiocy while touting the voiceovers as ZOMGNEXTBIGTHING means it gets my goat. It's a huge waste of money, especially when watching what I've seen makes me think of such amazing games as Anarchy Online.

[DLRiley]

Games like SWTOR are only a symptom of what consumers have told mmo devs for the past 10 years. Really with a game like Aion reinforcing the message, potentially steaming piles like SWTOR are to be expected. Simple as that.

[Ingmar]

I'm honestly not sure why the animations are creating so much RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAGE.

[Malakili]

I'm honestly not sure why the animations are creating so much RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAGE.

cause they suck?

[Ingmar]

Gosh, everything is clear to me now.

[amiable]

I'm honestly not sure why the animations are creating so much RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAGE.

Yeah, I found this weird as well.  There is plenty to be annoyed about, but the animations seem to vex folks the most.  To be quite honest I didn't think they were that bad for an alpha build.  But I have low expectations.

[Ingmar]

While we're at it, I've never really gotten the hate on instancing and quests. People really want to go back to the days of AE farming a single camp over and over to level? Or spawn camping a mob for 3 days EQ-style?

How do you do a story-based MMO *without* heavy reliance on instancing and quests, without make it it totally immersion breaking as people line up to kill Joe Plot NPC #3 over and over?

Is this just I HATE EVERYTHING THAT ISN'T A LORD OF THE FLIES SANDBOX? I haven't been here long enough to sort out where everyone falls on the NGE Sucks/Trammel Sucks/DIKU YAY Venn diagram.

[DLRiley]

UO was garbage, sandbox pvp is the special olympics of gaming, and grinding by any other name(skill based system, player created items, quest chains that just happen to boil down to kill 10 rats and go find the someones lost cat) is grinding. I also hate long travel times, downtime, money sinks, time sinks. Do like story telling and pvp based on competition. Do hate "world domination" as a goal for any pvp activity and "because phat loot bag" as a goal for any pvp activity. Geez and I've only scratched the surface as what I've come to hate.... Oh and the next game with community(sever, realm, faction) + pride as a gameplay feature gets an auto-ignore. Those games go to the graveyard in 1 month anyway.

[AutomaticZen]

Is this just I HATE EVERYTHING THAT ISN'T A LORD OF THE FLIES SANDBOX? I haven't been here long enough to sort out where everyone falls on the NGE Sucks/Trammel Sucks/DIKU YAY Venn diagram.

I, for one, would like to see this sandbox.

[Sjofn]

I'm not really seeing how those animations are terrible. No, it's not the most amazing thing I've ever seen, but they don't make me cringe inside the way 98% of games that have humans moving do. It's not NEARLY as unnatural as I was expecting with all the OMG SO SHITTY reaction here.

[Yegolev]

It's a good idea to go ahead and decry the game now in public since it's pretty easy to just have a secret subscription to it later.  However, if you hump its leg now and it turns out to suck... well, there goes your f13.cred down the shitter.

[Cyrrex]

As if any of us actually has any cred.