SWTOR

[Zane0]

Although I somewhat disagree with Engels' whole EverQuest jag, I do fear that Bioware is more concerned with affecting an individual sense of empowerment (that will ultimately be quite superficial), than "bringing storytelling to the medium," per se. This will not be an epic tale that will have fans raving for years -- it will be a collection of KOTOR-esque subplots that you can approach in a few different ways; the very existence of two (invincible) player factions presents a significant roadblock to a story of any real ambition -- or any real change at all.

[taolurker]

It so far appears to me that SWTOR is maybe missing part of the mark with voiceovers and instances, but also in seeing the storytelling is only ONE part of it. The Social aspect of it should also be stressed, and with this questing system it will likely result in the "soloing along together" feeling every MMO seems to slip into.

The story of characters and the story of the world evolving is part of what players want. Ultima Online was more about the players shaping/scarring the world and had players actively creating the events and stories of the world (OMG lest we forget the comedy that did evolve into a forum community -parasite-? centered around people venting/laughing about it fomr some 10 years ago)..

EQ is just the example I am drawing from, but a better example would be a Fantasy novel (static content) versus a 'choose your own adventure' book (the one where you have to flip to a certain page depending on your 'choice'). Inevitably, the latter's story is going to be less immersive than the former.

Everquest's model for quests was what all RPGs focus on, and although they are static, they are left to the player to "envision" or "imagine" their character into the story. A novel you read which is directed by an author with no choices should still be something pictured by the reader, and everything has "immersion potential" as long as there is suspension of disbelief.

The Player character in either case (static or choose your own) IS the story and Players are supposed to make it their story. It's a role you inhabit while in the world (role-playing?), whether the quests are static, transitory, or non-existant. Being a choose your own adventure only adds to immersion, but immersion is still individual and subjective to the player. The problem isn't the setting, backdrop, NPCs and "quests", or whether players know they are static; repeatable; not unique; shared; camped; or not.. It's will they mindlessly burn through them without bothering to be immersed?

Star Wars anything will always be the hardest to get an immersion factor from because everyone wants to be Luke Skywalker or Darth Maul with ultimate power and a dildo laser, and no one wants to be immersed. I liked Star Wars Galaxies just because I could Sim Beru if I chose to, and because if you truly were social it became a story. I still don't see the other things an MMO builds immersion from though, like housing, crafting, guilds, and most of all a world that isn't static.

Although I somewhat disagree with Engels' whole EverQuest jag, I do fear that Bioware is more concerned with affecting an individual sense of empowerment (that will ultimately be quite superficial), than "bringing storytelling to the medium," per se. This will not be an epic tale that will have fans raving for years -- it will be a collection of KOTOR-esque subplots that you can approach in a few different ways; the very existence of two (invincible) player factions presents a significant roadblock to a story of any real ambition -- or any real change at all.

But here's the thing, how can you create "content" that players don't burn through in an attempt to see, claim, finish, or destroy everything? How can it be epic for players who aren't themselves "unique"? The conflict needs to be evolving and if it isn't, then what is the point hitting the pellet lever again? Maybe because I'm a casual (role)player, who doesn't churn through everything, games have a immersive feel regardless for me. It's also how I haven't gone insane through live bug testing for things I pay for, is that when I'm in game I try to "pretend" I am a character of MMO_world101 killing a foozle "FOR GOD AND COUNTRY!!".

No game can achieve a perfect balance with players, playstyles (casual vs powar) and immersion because of the MMO part and moreso minus the RPG. Add in the growth of epeen attitude combined with this being a Star Wars license, therefore I just remain skeptical and will probably do free QA likely never buying the game if I get a beta invite. I type near 70 wpm and can program an emote, and honestly if more people used MMOs as a chat interface, maybe they'd be fun for me again.

This game, just like every MMO for a while won't be played for fun, there will be massive amounts of painful choices and whining/winning, the game will go 6 months after release before servers start merging and will have a free trial before it's first year.

[eldaec]

the very existence of two (invincible) player factions presents a significant roadblock to a story of any real ambition -- or any real change at all.

I disagree.

Having everything the player does in single player rpgs shake the very core of the universe shows lack of ambition in story telling. It's a crutch used by bad writers who can't attach meaning to elements of the story without the massacre of thousands of orphans or the achievement of galactic peace for a thousand years.

[jayfyve]

the very existence of two (invincible) player factions presents a significant roadblock to a story of any real ambition -- or any real change at all.

I disagree.

Having everything the player does in single player rpgs shake the very core of the universe shows lack of ambition in story telling. It's a crutch used by bad writers who can't attach meaning to elements of the story without the massacre of thousands of orphans or the achievement of galactic peace for a thousand years.

I think it's a bigger challenge for writers to make the player care about the relationships with the NPCs. Apocalypse is the easy way out in a lot of games.

[WindupAtheist]

I know its your appointed duty to come out against EQ. It draws you out like a religion thread does in the politics subforum, but my point is really about in-depth story lines within an MMO versus 'malleable' story arcs created by players. EQ is just the example I am drawing from, but a better example would be a Fantasy novel (static content) versus a 'choose your own adventure' book (the one where you have to flip to a certain page depending on your 'choice'). Inevitably, the latter's story is going to be less immersive than the former.

They should just make the whole game static. Then it will be a movie.

[Venkman]

The compelling aspect of EQ's storylines is that they were often very deep and often required the players to pay attention.

EQ1 was a more immersive world than most diku-inspired games that followed, but not because of the quests. The only reason I ever saw to "pay attention [to quests]" was because you had really no clue what the NPCs wanted you to text back to them.

Nah, where the immersion came from was elsewhere: corpse recovery and faction.

CR is obvious and probably all of us went from hating them enough to love the DAoC tombstone/XP feature to lamenting the easymode that is WoW.

Faction is the part I miss the most, the one thing that clearly defined the "you" to the game world in the same way gear defined you to other players. It wasn't the most robust thing ever (my high water mark prior was Ultima IV "Air of <x>"), but it was a damn far cry better than anything that's followed, which all made you choose an unchangeable side going in. And even EQ2 watered down how they handled the Qeynos/Freeport thing.

All of this is secondary though to the real reason to pay attention in EQ1: the game could break at any time in a number of interesting ways. The amount we put up with there that we've never seen in WoW...

[Zane0]

Having everything the player does in single player rpgs shake the very core of the universe shows lack of ambition in story telling. It's a crutch used by bad writers who can't attach meaning to elements of the story without the massacre of thousands of orphans or the achievement of galactic peace for a thousand years.

One doesn't normally equate the rise and fall of alliances to "shaking the universe to its core," but moreover -- which story do you see Bioware constantly (attempting) to write?

[SnakeCharmer]

I'd argue that EQ was immersive solely be being the first MMO with really good graphics (for its time), and for no other reason.

[Lantyssa]

They should just make the whole game static. Then it will be a movie.

Only if Blur does it.

[Lantyssa]

CR is obvious and probably all of us went from hating them enough to love the DAoC tombstone/XP feature to lamenting the easymode that is WoW.

Faction is the part I miss the most, the one thing that clearly defined the "you" to the game world in the same way gear defined you to other players. It wasn't the most robust thing ever (my high water mark prior was Ultima IV "Air of <x>"), but it was a damn far cry better than anything that's followed, which all made you choose an unchangeable side going in. And even EQ2 watered down how they handled the Qeynos/Freeport thing.

WoW's system pisses me off as well.  Revive surrounded by hostiles at a fraction of health and mana or take a huge repair hit and a massive debuff with a long timer if you revive at the graveyard.

I liked the factions in SWG.  Not to say there wasn't room for improvement, but you could play with them.  I liked working on them to get extremely hostile ones friendly.  Things like being friendly to both Singing Mountain Clan and Nightsisters who would help you in the field.  WoW's version is a grind, and at least to the content I reached, only affected vendors.

[Malakili]

WoW's system pisses me off as well.  Revive surrounded by hostiles at a fraction of health and mana or take a huge repair hit and a massive debuff with a long timer if you revive at the graveyard.

WoW's system is fairly non-punitive, really.  I mean, there are really very few places in the game where you can't find a place to respawn without immediately dying again, and HAVE to graveyard ressurect.  In fact, the only times I ever do it, is if the game puts me at a really stupid graveyard that is straight-line close to where I died, but a really low annoying run, and then I'll just go AFK for the 10 minute debuff.  Repair costs are only really a problem if you are in top notch gear.  I mean, it can be inconvenient and slightly annoying, but its really a non-issue the vast majority of the time.

[Venkman]

I can understand where Lantyssa is coming from, but I think in four years of on/off play, I had one problem with mobs killing when I rez, and I think that was a bug (a mob spawned right as I rezzed). The area in which you can rez is pretty wide and you can see what's roaming around in ghost form.

I liked the factions in SWG.  Not to say there wasn't room for improvement, but you could play with them.  I liked working on them to get extremely hostile ones friendly.  Things like being friendly to both Singing Mountain Clan and Nightsisters who would help you in the field. 

Wow. For how much I loved SWG, I totally missed that you could make some hostiles eventually friendly enough for them to help you. I never did a lot of adventuring though. Went the business/service route instead. And each time I returned was for less of a duration...

[Ghambit]

That's what I was sayin' before.  If you take multiple-arced storytelling and couple it with variable faction-based reputation systems, you could conceivably have a pretty interesting, content-heavy game.  Especially when you consider being able to travel to certain planets and/or use certain equipment.  Instead of having to reroll another toon, you just take on a different persona (ala Darth Vader).  It's definitely something much more appealing than collecting 10,000 bug carapaces... although, there is a time/need for those uber-repgrinds at certain points.  Like when you only want a few people on a server to accomplish certain goals.

[Surlyboi]

I can understand where Lantyssa is coming from, but I think in four years of on/off play, I had one problem with mobs killing when I rez, and I think that was a bug (a mob spawned right as I rezzed). The area in which you can rez is pretty wide and you can see what's roaming around in ghost form.

I liked the factions in SWG.  Not to say there wasn't room for improvement, but you could play with them.  I liked working on them to get extremely hostile ones friendly.  Things like being friendly to both Singing Mountain Clan and Nightsisters who would help you in the field. 

Wow. For how much I loved SWG, I totally missed that you could make some hostiles eventually friendly enough for them to help you. I never did a lot of adventuring though. Went the business/service route instead. And each time I returned was for less of a duration...

Totally. I did the same thing with the SMC and the NS. Well, 'til I found it more fun to kill nightsisters. But each planet had about five or more factions you could game to be either helpful or harmful depending on what kind of masochist you were. Pissing off the Afarathu was awesome if you were going for Hutt/Jabba faction, but didn't do much to help you with the Tuskens.

[Kageru]

WoW has had the same with a pirate faction quest. Kill enough guards in initially friendly goblin towns and you can become friendly with the bloodsail pirates. End result being a bunch of towns you can no longer safely visit, some on transport routes, but the pirates offer a quest for a pirate hat and parrot. Massively disadvantageous in total but some people still do it.

The problem is that a faction divide ends up meaning your content is split in half or more amongst the player base. And sufficient content already seems to be one of their challenges. Or alternatively use the EQ model where faction is just an annoying toggle you can freely switch back and forth which means everyone gets to see all the content but the faction doesn't really ultimately mean much.

[Malakili]

Or alternatively use the EQ model where faction is just an annoying toggle you can freely switch back and forth which means everyone gets to see all the content but the faction doesn't really ultimately mean much.

Well, thats the way it'll go back I think.  We've seen that the most successful MMO model seems to be a semi-persistent world with a lot of mini games you can do and plenty of social networking, more than the real immersive sandbox/persistent world.  Its just such an accessible model for the game.  Part of me always still yearns for the more "hardcore" days, but I also realize the appeal of being able to play a stress free fun/social game where nothing you do matters all that much. 

Still, this game doesn't interest me all that much.

[Koyasha]

The problem is that a faction divide ends up meaning your content is split in half or more amongst the player base. And sufficient content already seems to be one of their challenges. Or alternatively use the EQ model where faction is just an annoying toggle you can freely switch back and forth which means everyone gets to see all the content but the faction doesn't really ultimately mean much.

EQ's faction system is the best there's ever been that I know of.  Determined by your actions, you could actually alter how the world felt about you even going so far as to make your home town hate you and your traditional racial enemy town accept you to some degree.  My wood elf could wander around most of Neriak and I think I had a dark elf that wasn't KOS to most of Kelethin.  I even remember seeing ogres and trolls in Kelethin.  And of course my wood elf was kill on sight in parts of Felwithe because she'd gone and killed Tunare and the clerics of Tunare took umbrage at that.  Luclin had an incredibly complex web of factions, but it was unfinished and always remained so.  After that, they never really put much focus on factions - presumably the people that left during the Luclin development were the primary ones using factions in interesting and creative ways, because from Planes of Power onward factions were straightforward and boring.

[CadetUmfer]

If you take multiple-arced storytelling and couple it with variable faction-based reputation systems, you could conceivably have a pretty interesting content-heavy game.

[Sheepherder]

I can understand where Lantyssa is coming from, but I think in four years of on/off play, I had one problem with mobs killing when I rez, and I think that was a bug (a mob spawned right as I rezzed). The area in which you can rez is pretty wide and you can see what's roaming around in ghost form.

The loving attention to detail that went into the cock punch does not make it less of a cock punch.  Which means it's intended end should be considered against the harm that it inflicts.  The gain is exceedingly small in that it limits player behaviour to what they conceivably can handle via disincentive and stretches leveling time.  The former doesn't require that they're be any penalties insofar as the player still "loses" when they die (a matter of both ego and expended time while fighting) and the increased time is guaranteed to bore the player as they are forced to navigate but cannot interact with anything in a meaningful way.

[Koyasha]

The loving attention to detail that went into the cock punch does not make it less of a cock punch.  Which means it's intended end should be considered against the harm that it inflicts.  The gain is exceedingly small in that it limits player behaviour to what they conceivably can handle via disincentive and stretches leveling time.  The former doesn't require that they're be any penalties insofar as the player still "loses" when they die (a matter of both ego and expended time while fighting) and the increased time is guaranteed to bore the player as they are forced to navigate but cannot interact with anything in a meaningful way.

It amazes me that people continue to argue for even weaker death penalties than wow.  What exactly are you people trying for, to die then instantly pop back up fully healed and ready for more battle so you can kill whatever got you?  Or to be rewarded every time you die?  Maybe get a temporary buff that lets you one-shot anything you touch just to make sure dying didn't inconvenience you?

There have been very few times, very very few times, that I've died in any MMOG (outside of pvp and even mostly in pvp too) in which I can honestly say that dying was not my own fault in one way or another.  Gameplay-wise, having a reasonable but not excessive death penalty adds a lot to the game.  There's no question that a lot of people won't play anything but the easiest game around that gives the least penalty, and commercially speaking a reasonable death penalty reduces your revenue.  But I'm talking about a game that's fun, compelling, and most of all challenging, not the most effective route to the megabucks.

[Murgos]

MMO's are business ventures not artistic endeavors.

[Sheepherder]

There have been very few times, very very few times, that I've died in any MMOG (outside of pvp and even mostly in pvp too) in which I can honestly say that dying was not my own fault in one way or another.

Just today (In WoW) I got dropped to my death on a steeply sloped mountainside because the Hodir quest where you fight on the back of drakes malfunctioned.  Three days ago my druid died several times when an instance server shit the bed and dropped people through the geometry.  When I was leveling as a warrior I actually had the same thing occur disconnecting while zoning into Uldaman, but this time not only did I fall to my death while alive, the game then had me fall to my death while I was dead, getting durability loss both times, I've had the same happen on my rogue.  I've seen 40 man raids get wiped out in BWL due to server lag on numerous occasions.

Gameplay-wise, having a reasonable but not excessive death penalty adds a lot to the game.  There's no question that a lot of people won't play anything but the easiest game around that gives the least penalty, and commercially speaking a reasonable death penalty reduces your revenue.  But I'm talking about a game that's fun, compelling, and most of all challenging, not the most effective route to the megabucks.

"Most of all, challenging."  I like that turn of phrase, but I'm having a little trouble comprehending.  Please, tell me what exactly about running back to your corpse as a ghost is difficult?  See, I was operating under the misconception that actually playing the motherfucking game was more difficult.

[Lantyssa]

I can understand where Lantyssa is coming from, but I think in four years of on/off play, I had one problem with mobs killing when I rez, and I think that was a bug (a mob spawned right as I rezzed). The area in which you can rez is pretty wide and you can see what's roaming around in ghost form.

I only die if I'm in an area where I'm swarmed by mobs.  I don't die alot (until my early levels in Outland here recently, where I'm still in old world gear, aggro is larger, and things are all 2+ levels above me), so when it happens it's in a spectacularly bad spot.

[Venkman]

Just today (In WoW) I got dropped to my death on a steeply sloped mountainside because the Hodir quest where you fight on the back of drakes malfunctioned.  Three days ago my druid died several times when an instance server shit the bed and dropped people through the geometry.  When I was leveling as a warrior I actually had the same thing occur disconnecting while zoning into Uldaman, but this time not only did I fall to my death while alive, the game then had me fall to my death while I was dead, getting durability loss both times, I've had the same happen on my rogue.  I've seen 40 man raids get wiped out in BWL due to server lag on numerous occasions.

These are not things for which a game design should change. These are edge case conditions outside of the assumptions made by the design and development team. "Just the other day" for you is a lifetime ago in terms of the aggregate of data collected by the various operators of WoW. And yet, any change to the core design systems automatically impacts everyone.

In other words: you don't change the death penalty because a server or zone crashes every so often. You treat those occurences as customer service issues and compensate accordingly, as Blizzard already does.

[Ingmar]

There have been very few times, very very few times, that I've died in any MMOG (outside of pvp and even mostly in pvp too) in which I can honestly say that dying was not my own fault in one way or another.

Just today (In WoW) I got dropped to my death on a steeply sloped mountainside because the Hodir quest where you fight on the back of drakes malfunctioned. 

That's just a function of how parachuting works - when you tagged a flatter part of the slope on the way down your parachute expired and you fell, I assume. It could almost be considered a feature - 'don't kill the drake while you're over a multi-thousand foot fall down to Zul'Drak'. There's still plenty of time to kill it over level ground after that, after all; in fact most noobier players won't even get the drake to a killable state before they're already past the cliffs.

[Sheepherder]

That's just a function of how parachuting works - when you tagged a flatter part of the slope on the way down your parachute expired and you fell, I assume.

No, I'm talking about the grappling hook / kill female vikings while on autopilot in a circle rawr quest that unlocks the dailies.  It's pretty broken on my server as of last reset.

In other words: you don't change the death penalty because a server or zone crashes every so often. You treat those occurences as customer service issues and compensate accordingly, as Blizzard already does.

I've never actually seen Blizzard compensate for falling through the world / server crash shit.  Just tell you how to soft reset the instance and stick your corpse in the nearest graveyard.  Regardless, this is still dodging the implicit question: what is there of any fucking value in corpse runs / exp loss / gold loss that make it worth the ire of hundreds of players unleashed upon your support staff?  All three basically translate into "prolong the tedious unfun shit."  Or is the world upside-down now and people enjoy doing the exact same kill ten foozle quests every day of the week for weeks on end in order to compensate for the fact that their occasionally capable of doing fun shit?

For some reason every time someone comes up with the "hey, in a single player game I can just hit quickload" a half dozen people instinctively know and are absolutely compelled to unleash their inner Grunk all over the place and take a stroll through memory lane back to a time when men were men, women were men, and if your domicile didn't reek of cat piss you weren't having enough "fun".

[NowhereMan]

I guess the problem is if there's no real penalty associated with 'losing' then what's the point of making it possible to die at all? Hell you could argue that even something like an instance that closes when you die presents too much of a death penalty. If your group wipes they just get an insta-rez where they were. The feeling is that if there isn't any penalty then there's no real incentive not to die, hell it can even become a mechanic that's exploitable and that possibility just doesn't jive for a lot of people.

I say this having hated EQ's penalty at the time, especially after once losing my corpse having been running from some mob in a zone I didn't know and just having no idea where the hell my corpse was. Even FFXI seemed a bit harsh to me and I'm one of the rare few of MMO players that hasn't actually tried WoW yet so I can't really comment on their system, but when death doesn't really have any penalty at all, I guess it just seems heavily unintuitive. No reason not to do it so long as it's worked as part of the game mechanics rather than just a way to keep more players involved but it just seems like design decision which is based more on the business model than the game.

Frankly I'm just waiting to find out what the hell this game is actually about before I get involved in some long discussion about one aspect of the mechanics that it might or might not have.

[CadetUmfer]

Are we discussing corpse runs again? I'm waiting for a game to take them a step farther, and just cancel your account and make you resub to get back in.  We'll call them "credit card runs."  That'll teach you to die in our game!

[Venkman]

I've never actually seen Blizzard compensate for falling through the world / server crash shit.

But again, that's a system failure, not a design one. And I've lost count how many times they've added a few billing days/weeks to affected people's accounts.

what is there of any fucking value in corpse runs / exp loss / gold loss that make it worth the ire of hundreds of players unleashed upon your support staff? 

Every competitive game, whether against an environment or against a player, has a penalty for failing. And every single system ever developed was an evolution from a prior one. WoW's the current result of years of lessening the punitive damage from failure.

This isn't some harkening back to the old days. We all here accepted EQ1's insane triple punch because we enjoyed enough the other parts of the game. And you'll never hear from me anyway that harsher death penalty means people playing smarter (because it doesn't, it just means they have less fun and over-research every encounter before showing up with the highest probability of winning).

But imagine a game without any penalty at all. Or better yet, point to one in any competitive genre that doesn't have it.

[tmp]

But imagine a game without any penalty at all. Or better yet, point to one in any competitive genre that doesn't have it.

Well, LotRO has 10 minutes debuff and repair cost if you die in their PvE zones, but none of this in PvM area. I can't remember now but i think there wasn't any penalty if you died in the battleground in WAR, either? I think the logic behind this is, if one side is playing bad enough to lose in the first place then giving them extra kick in the balls ain't going to help them overcome that, but instead will only make the disparity worse.

There's a mild penalty in form of being removed to nearest graveyard if your side doesn't rez you on the spot. It seems to work rather well, or at least i don't see people cry for devs to stomp on their nuts...

[Malakili]

But imagine a game without any penalty at all. Or better yet, point to one in any competitive genre that doesn't have it.

Well, LotRO has 10 minutes debuff and repair cost if you die in their PvE zones, but none of this in PvM area. I can't remember now but i think there wasn't any penalty if you died in the battleground in WAR, either? I think the logic behind this is, if one side is playing bad enough to lose in the first place then giving them extra kick in the balls ain't going to help them overcome that, but instead will only make the disparity worse.

There's a mild penalty in form of being removed to nearest graveyard if your side doesn't rez you on the spot. It seems to work rather well, or at least i don't see people cry for devs to stomp on their nuts...

WoW does it this way in PvP as well...

[gryeyes]

I guess the problem is if there's no real penalty associated with 'losing' then what's the point of making it possible to die at all? Hell you could argue that even something like an instance that closes when you die presents too much of a death penalty. If your group wipes they just get an insta-rez where they were. The feeling is that if there isn't any penalty then there's no real incentive not to die, hell it can even become a mechanic that's exploitable and that possibility just doesn't jive for a lot of people.

Seriously, a game without the possibility of "losing" in any fashion is fucking horrible. You need some motivation for becoming "better" at a given game. It removes the fun of having to think your way to a given goal. Besides the fact it increases the time required to do anything so stretches out content. No chance of death decreases the hours of content significantly.

[Koyasha]

The wow death penalty is weak enough, continuing to dilute it further would take it to the point of having no penalty whatsoever for losing.  Which means losing doesn't really exist anymore, and how much fun are games in which you cannot lose?  If we remove death penalties entirely, then we should remove death entirely, and just make all characters invulnerable.  MMO PvP deaths in 'sport' pvp (which is most pvp these days) typically have no penalty to the character directly, but usually is detrimental to succeeding at the objective you're engaging in pvp in, causing you to lose the battle, which works fine.  As long as losing the battle is enough of a penalty, of course.  And another of the main issues is persistence.  In many multiplayer games, once you lose the game is over.  In an MMOG the game is never over, so instead of the punishment of losing the game, losing a battle or fight must apply a penalty within the persistent nature of the world.

[DLRiley]

Going off the deep end are we  . When people die in games there is a twitch response to stop playing (not forever but merely log off or simply pause). It's the brains attempt at ensuring you do something useful with your life. This is inherently bad for an mmo simply because any time the brain is forced to pause its starts to question why they are even playing the game. Adding a death penalty on top isn't helping the case really.

[Triforcer]

It never ceases to amaze me that people keep falling back on the "U WANT NUTSACK PUNCHING LIKE 1999 EQ BECAUSE YOU NEED TO FEEL BETTER THAN GAMERS WITH LIFE LLOLL" canard in any situation where someone opposes removing all inconvenience and penalty in an MMO.

Amazingly, there are reasons OTHER than latent EQ/Vanguard sadomasochism and/or poopsocker narcissism to not design MMOs where you can teleport anywhere instantly and respawn at full health 1 second after you die in the exact same spot and max to full level in two hours.   Hint:  retaining people for more than one month.  Super secret free extra hint:  try playing all single-player PC games you buy on invincible instakill godmode only and tell me how satisfied you are.  

Is there a spectrum?  Sure.  Its possible to have penalties that unnecessarily shade into 1999 EQ land.  But its possible to go to far the other way, which almost nobody on this site can acknowledge or discuss without trotting out the "u want your nads shocked by a car battery when ur char dies hur hur hur i just want to have fun" nonsense.