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Lucas
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Further proof that Italians have suspect taste in games.


Reply #665 on: April 09, 2009, 04:08:15 PM

... So say we all.

" He's so impatient, it's like watching a teenager fuck a glorious older woman." - Ironwood on J.J. Abrams
schild
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Reply #666 on: April 09, 2009, 04:11:40 PM

ALSO.

This is a pre-alpha forum. This is just a bunch of hype bullshit. Think about what happens when they get 30x that number of people. That team is fucking ill-equipped and will always be ill-equipped in having to deal with rowdy people. They don't know enough about the SWG community to placate them and the people involved don't know enough about managing that big a group of people. They're also way too afraid to upset people through bans and lockdown.

They did it 100% wrong and they can't fix it. So for any of those hoping for the best, keep hoping.
Triforcer
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Reply #667 on: April 09, 2009, 05:28:58 PM

I liked the SWG pre-release boards... cry

Man, I hated the pre-release SWG boards.  There was this asshole named Triforce or something like that... always going on and on about pvp.. and ragging on this poor girl named Callista or sommat.  If only some white knights had come to her defense!

 DRILLING AND MANLINESS

Yes, that guy was a complete asshole  Ohhhhh, I see.

I've actually seen Caella post a couple times over there.  But the battles we fought are antiquated now- and in a sense we both won.  Nobody is going the SB/Darkfall route ever again in an AAA MMO, but no developer has the reflexive "PvP is teh SATAN!1!" mentality that characterized the 2000-2003 era either. 

EDIT:  And schild managing the SWTOR community?  I'd pay 14.95 a month even for just viewing privileges to those boards  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 05:30:29 PM by Triforcer »

All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu.  This is the truth!  This is my belief! At least for now...
Stormwaltz
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Reply #668 on: April 09, 2009, 09:40:56 PM

EDIT:  And schild managing the SWTOR community?  I'd pay 14.95 a month even for just viewing privileges to those boards  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

"I disagree with what you said" would only be the beginning.  DRILLING AND MANLINESS

Nothing in this post represents the views of my current or previous employers.

"Isn't that just like an elf? Brings a spell to a gun fight."

"Sci-Fi writers don't invent the future, they market it."
- Henry Cobb
schild
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Reply #669 on: April 09, 2009, 10:18:03 PM

EDIT:  And schild managing the SWTOR community?  I'd pay 14.95 a month even for just viewing privileges to those boards  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?
"I disagree with what you said" would only be the beginning.  DRILLING AND MANLINESS
Laugh it up guys. People complain a lot less about this forum than they do official forums. Fortunately, I am privvy to constantly being the guy who gets that last laugh. Enjoy your fanfic though.  why so serious?
Triforcer
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Reply #670 on: April 09, 2009, 10:20:33 PM

Huh?  That wasn't a criticism of you, it was a compliment.  My joy would come from watching you mete out justice.  Sweet, 14 year old ADD kid smiting justice. 

All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu.  This is the truth!  This is my belief! At least for now...
schild
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Reply #671 on: April 09, 2009, 10:32:11 PM

Apologies then. It's hard to tell the difference with you. Needless to say, I'm a little burnt watching them do exactly what I said they'd do and then fuck up in the exact ways I said they would. It's really, really goddamn annoying.

Edit: For the record, if I went in there right now, I would shut down every single board except for Gen Disc, and the Star Wars Galaxies Defense Society would get booted faster than you can say NGE. That shit would be right out. Also, I wouldn't expand the boards until beta. And even then, private until open beta. And then, MAYBE I'd expand them further. It's not like a Star Wars MMOG from What-Everyone-Thinks-Is-Bioware-But-Is-Really-SOE/Wolfpack2.0/A-Tiny-Portion-Of-Bioware is going to have ANY problems getting shitloads of boxes sold - quality be damned. Also, making everyone who plays or posts there happy, is impossible. There's a very good chance I would make the boards subscriber only except for the official news boards and class discussion (serious business boards, in other words). They're going to have their time in the limelight no matter WHAT other MMOGs come out, so they may as well manage it halfway decently. Which they're not going to. Because they don't know how.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 10:35:34 PM by schild »
ashrik
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Reply #672 on: April 09, 2009, 11:37:13 PM

I think I may be confused, which isn't so confusing considering the simpleness of one such as I. Did Schild apply for a developer/coder type position at Bioware or some kind of forum moderator one? Assuming the former, who did get positions at this place that he was so anathema towards? All I could compile was the mishmash of SW:G and EQ people. If the latter, who gives a shit how they handle their rabid pre-release forums and why does he think it would matter? I think I'm just slow.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 11:39:04 PM by ashrik »
schild
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Reply #673 on: April 09, 2009, 11:40:18 PM

I think I may be confused, which isn't so confusing considering the simpleness of one such as I. Did Schild apply for a developer/coder type position at Bioware or some kind of forum moderator one? Assuming the former, who did get positions at this place that he was so anathema towards? All I could compile was the mishmash of SW:G and EQ people. If the latter, who gives a shit and why does he think it would matter? I think I'm just slow.
What part confused you? Seriously. I'm wondering where something I said wasn't crystal clear. I can spell it out though, the gig was CRM. On the short list of people in the industry that can cope with the SW:G community clashing with the non-SW:G community, it went to someone not on that list. But as I said before, I applied on a lark. The resume I used was put together as a gag. It just happens to be a stellar resume, or at the very least - eye-catching and entirely original.
Zane0
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Reply #674 on: April 10, 2009, 12:00:53 AM

The Star Wars community is awful by definition; it is intrinsic to its very nature. In fact, that goes for any development around the Star Wars license by corollary -- they are catering to the Star Wars community, after all.

Don't see the point of all the kerfuffle, I guess.
schild
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Reply #675 on: April 10, 2009, 12:03:34 AM

Quote
The Star Wars community is awful by definition

A community is what you make of it. I'm pretty sure half the CRMs out there would never want any part of the WT.o transition or f13 afterwords. They can be shaped, molded, and respect can be earned. It just doesn't happen often.
UnSub
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Reply #676 on: April 10, 2009, 12:07:09 AM

Pre-alpha forums suck by default. I've been through too many of them, of reading half-thought out ideas, of arguments over IP, of arguments over platforms, of over-analysis of screenshots / posts / etc. And, since people aren't paying for access then anyway, pre-alpha forums are pretty much a waste of time by default, especially if there are lengthy gaps between info releases where the community inbreeds to the point of being a freakshow (hello, Citizen Zero).

In pre-alpha you'd be better off giving MMORPG.com the nod and having them deal with it. Official forums only really start to count when beta starts and players can comment on reality, not the game they've invented in their heads.

SWOR hasn't helped itself by allowing its 'blogs' to be commented on separately from the forum too. Too many sub-forums. Too many people trying to boost post count on the idea that such moves get them closer to being in the alpha / beta.

DayDream
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Reply #677 on: April 10, 2009, 12:20:01 AM

well i think that pretty much kills the small chance that they'd pull off something other than a rolling train wreck, what with the "every class story will be unique" goal and schild's little foray.

guess it's time to pull out the binoculars and see if some overworked low-level shmuck manages to slip in a creative solution for some problem while nobody was looking.



I bet they won't let players be droids anyway.  Just slimy aliens and boring humans.
Reg
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Reply #678 on: April 10, 2009, 02:18:40 AM

So who beat you out for the CRM job Schild? Is it anyone I'd have heard of?
Stormwaltz
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Reply #679 on: April 10, 2009, 03:00:56 AM

Laugh it up guys.

Let me say this: Dick Cheney is evil.

But I loved his willingness to say nothing less than precisely what he thought in press conferences, with no consideration whatsoever for social niceties or political correctness.

Even when I disagree with someone, I admire blunt honesty. Being honest takes balls these days.

Also, I am completely drunk right now. Four day weekend before a month of 70-hour weeks? Time for a big damn bottle of whiskey.

Cheers, Schild. I like you as you are.

Nothing in this post represents the views of my current or previous employers.

"Isn't that just like an elf? Brings a spell to a gun fight."

"Sci-Fi writers don't invent the future, they market it."
- Henry Cobb
Merusk
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Reply #680 on: April 10, 2009, 03:46:50 AM

So who beat you out for the CRM job Schild? Is it anyone I'd have heard of?

CMs listed are Amy Crider and Sean Dahlberg.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=9836

Crider was Tabula Rasa's CRM,  and Dahlberg is better known as "AshenTemper," the Shadowbane CRM.

 why so serious?



The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Sky
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I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


Reply #681 on: April 10, 2009, 08:46:55 AM

Wait, schild is Abashi?  ACK!
Merusk
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Reply #682 on: April 10, 2009, 09:19:52 AM

No, Absor.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Sky
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Reply #683 on: April 10, 2009, 10:59:14 AM

I disagree with what you said, in the context of the SWTOR boards.
Lucas
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Further proof that Italians have suspect taste in games.


Reply #684 on: April 10, 2009, 12:02:01 PM

New planet unveiled, Ord Mantell (and all related material) :

http://www.swtor.com/news/article/20090410_001

" He's so impatient, it's like watching a teenager fuck a glorious older woman." - Ironwood on J.J. Abrams
Triforcer
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Reply #685 on: April 11, 2009, 12:30:09 AM


All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu.  This is the truth!  This is my belief! At least for now...
Merusk
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Reply #686 on: April 11, 2009, 05:40:32 AM


Still less fucked up than the guy trying to say SWG was a raging success of an MMO.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
AshenTemper
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Reply #687 on: April 12, 2009, 04:57:05 PM

Throwing in my .02 credits (and sorry about the sporatic topic jumps, throwing up replies based on reading this thread that I remember):

Yes, Star Wars: The Old Republic is being developed at BioWare Austin. That said, we do have quite a few people here from the Edmonton office to include James Ohlen who is the Creative Director for this project and was the Lead Designer for Baldur’s Gate 1 & 2, Neverwinter Nights, and, of course, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic. Also, this is still a BioWare game. It's not like we're going to be held to different standard of quality just because we're not in Edmonton. Oh, and yes, Drew is headed down here.

Most of the content updates we've done have been geared towards the TOR Community. Yes, external sites post to it and we could make it a highly gated community (ie, no access without a login) but I find that to be quite non-user friendly. I know there are quite a few sites I keep up with that I don't have a login for. But you'll note that a lot of things we put up are geared towards TOR fans such as our Developer Dispatch (DevVid), Blogs, etc and not the world at large.

Speaking of content, note that the game isn't finished. We are still creating and tweaking assets and some of the systems that help make them look all purty. I could pretend to know exactly what I'm talking about but I'm no programmer. Simply put, you've seen the direction we're going down, not the end result.

The Threat of Peace (webcomic) and Timeline pieces are there to give context to users. The Threat of Peace actually tells the story of what happened from the Treaty of Coruscant and moves forward towards the beginning of the game. The Timeline starts from there and moves backwards, giving those who don't know much outside the movies more info about Star Wars. Yes, we could of just released some text on a page but over the years, I've come to the opinion that people pay more attention when there is pretty pictures with educational info and not just ten tons of text.

There are quite a few things we haven't announced publicly. For example, our initial screenshots mostly showed Sith vs Jedi because that is all we really talked about with the announcement. As more classes are announced, we'll be able to show more things in our screenshots and vids. I know a lot of people want the details now but I'm of the camp that you only talk about things that are currently working the way they should be (designed to) and talking about how we'd like things to work can easily lead to angry fans.

In regards to how the "community" section is, that's a matter of opinion and personal preference. I originally thought about not having one at this point in time but it only leads to a segmented community that is chasing its own tail trying to find out where the real information is. I also thought about having just the one forum but knowing how both Star Wars and BioWare fans are, it was more beneficial to have different sections for people to discuss in instead. I will also stand by my opinion that the software running the community section has much better administration tools and features than most anything else out there.

Other things I could ramble on about but this post is probably already "tl:dr".

- Sean

AAT: Oh yeah, and we've been calling it TOR instead of SWTOR which is much easier to say.
AAT: It is an MMO, not a MMFaux (TM pending by sidereal or ashrik; let them fight it out) ;)
« Last Edit: April 12, 2009, 05:01:47 PM by AshenTemper »

Sean Dahlberg
"Translation: He requires proof of good faith. We must make a contribution to his people that shows we are not a threat. Shall I blast him now, master?" - HK-47
schild
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Reply #688 on: April 12, 2009, 05:11:08 PM

As long as you're here:

Quote
Also, this is still a BioWare game. It's not like we're going to be held to different standard of quality just because we're not in Edmonton.

But you will [be held to a different standard], by both players and the new parent company. It's comments like this that grind my gears. Particularly since NWN barely ran out of the box. Also, it's a post-WAR/post-AOC/post-WoW world. The game has changed (the mmog design game, that is) and the people involved are either 1. People who have, well, not the greatest reputation or 2. have no experience making an mmog in the post-WoW world. Really, no one on management has experience there as far as I know. But maybe you've snuck someone in.

Quote
In regards to how the "community" section is, that's a matter of opinion and personal preference. I originally thought about not having one at this point in time but it only leads to a segmented community that is chasing its own tail trying to find out where the real information is. I also thought about having just the one forum but knowing how both Star Wars and BioWare fans are, it was more beneficial to have different sections for people to discuss in instead. I will also stand by my opinion that the software running the community section has much better administration tools and features than most anything else out there.

1. I didn't mean You should have Bioware and SWTOR fans in the same place. You will either way, people have no problem making two forum accounts. Combining them into the Bioware system would've been beyond dumb.

2. What I meant was that you shouldn't have opened up with nearly 20 forums. I say nearly because you didn't have the BH one up on day one and by the end you'll have class forums for every single class (each with their own icon and everything else on the top level). It's an organizational nightmare and all it does is invite everyone to be an armchair designer on day 1. Now, theoretically, this isn't bad, it promotes interest. Unfortunately, the reality is that after all of them put out their ideas and argue amongst eachother and be general dipshits, it's just going to end in tears, anger, and misinformation. You've essentially laid the groundwork to have forums 10x worse than SW:G. You have in fact, made it easier on whoever becomes the new SW:G community manager. An act I previously thought impossible.

3. If it has better administration tools, use them. The game isn't even in friends and family yet and that place needs to be CLEANSED with a holy fire. I'm not sure whether you think community is just a marketing tool or if "good" or "bad" a community is a community, but that place is going to become the most insular incestuous group of gamers on a level previously unseen by launch if it keeps going in this direction. You will NEVER have enough moderators.
eldaec
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Reply #689 on: April 12, 2009, 05:13:49 PM

It is an MMO

What makes something an MMO?


"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Ratman_tf
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Reply #690 on: April 12, 2009, 05:44:33 PM

It is an MMO

What makes something an MMO?



A montly subscription fee.  Ohhhhh, I see.

If SWTOR (I refuse to just call it TOR, nyah!) has commando/bounty hunter/trooper types, and I can jump the fucking storyline rails and go shoot some goddamn emo Jedi wannabes in their faces, I'd be interested. God, I had a Bounty Hunter in SWG set up just to permakill Jedi newbz, and then they fucked that all to hell.  Heartbreak
« Last Edit: April 12, 2009, 05:49:02 PM by Ratman_tf »



 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
-Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
AshenTemper
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Reply #691 on: April 12, 2009, 06:46:35 PM

I'm not going to deny that it will be held to a different standard by players or EA; but that's not what I've seen in this thread. It's been labeled that since it's not Edmonton that the quality is going to be different. I'm pretty sure a few thousand miles really isn't going to make Ray and Greg forget about the project we're working on. It's a BioWare game and it will be held to BioWare standards (at least by BioWare). NWN ran fine for me out of the box but I'm not going to pretend I know too much more about it outside of my personal experience.

You're definitely right that this is a different era and that's a concern for all MMOs in development, including ours. We do have a lot more experience in the studio than the few people you've mentioned; our writing staff is larger than that all by itself. That said, if my post came across as in "It's a BioWare game so it's going to automagically r0x", sorry because that wasn't my intention.

As for how many forums a site should have, that's your opinion. Mine was different. Doesn't mean one is right and the other is wrong, just means they are different. I disagree with yours and if you want to hear why, I'll ramble on about it. Whether its one forum or 20, it's still an organizational nightmare when you have over 100,000 active accounts on your community section. I chose to segregate on topics because it made it less like shouting into a hurricane and more like shouting into a thunderstorm. If it was a smaller community, I would agree on cutting back on the forums. That said, we actually only had 12 forums when the community launched and ended up adding more in the last few months (Suggestion Box, Class Disc, BH Disc, Guild Disc, Recruitmentx2, and play-by-post). Maybe the SW ones (outside of TOR) could be consolidated but even they are fairly active.

Let's also not kid ourselves, in a Pre (and Post) launch community; most people are an armchair designer. Show me a community forum that isn't full of them no matter what phase they are in. And some people are going to be upset. A great example is where we released the fact that Bounty Hunters are only Sith. But truth be told, I'd rather bite that bullet now than a year down the line when everyone is under the assumption otherwise.

I definitely agree that there is no such thing as having "enough" moderators. We will be bolstering our resources in the near future, too. And while I'm not going to go into details (for obvious reasons), you actually don't know what phase of development and/or testing we're in. I've been very free with the fact (in the TOR Community) that we aren’t launching next week or next month but, outside of that, we haven't said anything else. I point that out because if I don't, the assumption will be that since I didn't address the point, it must be true ;)

« Last Edit: April 12, 2009, 06:54:03 PM by AshenTemper »

Sean Dahlberg
"Translation: He requires proof of good faith. We must make a contribution to his people that shows we are not a threat. Shall I blast him now, master?" - HK-47
Triforcer
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Reply #692 on: April 12, 2009, 07:04:16 PM

Calling it TOR is a subtle way to prepare us for the fact that there is no space combat! (because "Star Wars" unpleasantly reminds us of wars in space).  Thus, I will keep calling it SWTOR out of protest  awesome, for real

All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu.  This is the truth!  This is my belief! At least for now...
Hawkbit
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Reply #693 on: April 12, 2009, 07:29:58 PM

This is going to end in tears. 
Ratman_tf
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Reply #694 on: April 12, 2009, 07:52:12 PM

A great example is where we released the fact that Bounty Hunters are only Sith.

I wanna shoot Sith too! You're breaking my heart, Anakin!




 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
-Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
lesion
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Reply #695 on: April 12, 2009, 07:57:11 PM

Just wait for the Jaunty Smuggler class, you.

steam|a grue \[T]/
schild
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Reply #696 on: April 12, 2009, 08:01:25 PM

There's a whole lot of shit worth retorting in that post, even in the FIRST paragraph. NWN ran smoothly, right, your baseline for smooth must've been crap. ANYWAY, that's neither here nor there. The only thing I want to say is:

Quote
I definitely agree that there is no such thing as having "enough" moderators.

No, I said YOU won't ever have enough. There is a such thing as having enough as evidenced by the team I have in place right here.

Edit: Also, honestly, you're just making it harder on them with the number of unnecessary forums you have. I mean, let's just go through them. Things we DON'T need before anyone public has played the game and can talk about it:

2 forums: Empire/Sith recruit. Pointless. Redundant. You already have guild recruitment. They'll label what they are in there.
1 forum (for now)- Who knows how many other later: Specific Class discussion. Pointless. Should be a general until there's a beta, actual issues.
4 forums: SW discussion. Seriously, fanboys can't go somewhere else for that? Do you think gamers want that tardery about their forums?
4 forums: Community Creations: This is JUST masturbatory.

That's 11 forums that are entirely unnecessary and just increase the noise ratio and decrease signal. And by decrease signal, I mean - You haven't launched yet, if you don't know what kind of people those forums will attract, you're crazy. And it all just adds to "not having enough mods ever." Not that I've seen the forums being gutted of LCD posters yet, which is a shame, but honestly, at this point, you're creating what will ultimately and ironically be the most vile hive of scum and villainy on the internet.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2009, 08:09:24 PM by schild »
rattran
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Reply #697 on: April 12, 2009, 08:10:51 PM

I definitely agree that there is no such thing as having "enough" moderators. We will be bolstering our resources in the near future, too. And while I'm not going to go into details (for obvious reasons), you actually don't know what phase of development and/or testing we're in. I've been very free with the fact (in the TOR Community) that we aren’t launching next week or next month but, outside of that, we haven't said anything else. I point that out because if I don't, the assumption will be that since I didn't address the point, it must be true ;)

After going through the forums, you've managed to replicate the feel of the Vault. Bravo. Seriously, if your forums are this swamp poop so long before launch I look forward to much amusement.

Unless you were trying for useful forums, in which case you've failed. Badly.
schild
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Reply #698 on: April 12, 2009, 08:20:08 PM

Oh right. Also:

Just because a forum is active doesn't mean it should exist. Everything on the site will be active. It's a Bioware-LABELED Star Wars title.

You could make a forum called The Shit House and the only thing you can post in it is Rancor/Chipmunks slashfic and it'd be active.
AshenTemper
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Reply #699 on: April 12, 2009, 09:31:33 PM

So, you have about what, 3,000 registered users on these forums, right? The TOR Community section (not the site as a whole, just the Community section) gets more posts than that on a normal day when we don't post an update. That's like saying the staff and layout my local Barnes & Nobles has should work just fine for the Library of Congress. Yes, I know, I'm being a little melodramatic on that one but you get my drift.

Now maybe if we didn't have that many forum categories, we'd probably have less visitors. And while that might be technically correct, it's be so only barely. Like I said, many of those forums didn't exist until about a month or so ago. We put them up due to the sheer amount of topics we were getting that we could funnel into them. We didn't go and make categories for everything... there are no forums made specifically for planet discussion or lightsaber crystals or who shot first. There are forums for general disc, classes, guilds, and community creations. Pretty basic topics that we know most people are going to want to talk about in regards to an MMO. They were talking about all of that already and we just made it easier for people who had no interest in guild politics to not have to see it unless they wanted to participate in it.

You've basically stated that having these many forums is bad. But outside of using some colorful terms, you haven't really even given any true reasons as to why its a bad thing. When you're building a community, why is it a bad thing (when you have that kind of volume) to categorize the conversations into something more manageable for the end user? Not for me... because "for me" would be the one forum that was fully moderated and we approved posts when we had the time to. No, I'm talking about for the community you're trying to build. Explain to me why its a bad thing to give them certain areas to discuss specific topics?

And outside of the fact that our game hasn't launched, how is that different from the 40 or so forums you have on this website?

Sean Dahlberg
"Translation: He requires proof of good faith. We must make a contribution to his people that shows we are not a threat. Shall I blast him now, master?" - HK-47
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