SWTOR

[SnakeCharmer]

The O forums suck ass.  S l o w, teeny tiny hotlinks, and everytime I want to log in, I have to clear my cookies/cache. 

[AcidCat]

Penny Arcade sums up the small combat clips we've seen perfectly: " It looks patently ridiculous to strike a monster more than twice with an infinitely sharp laser beam, and the whirling idiots in these clips look like they're auditioning for Thriller."

[SnakeCharmer]

To be fair, it's be patently boring to walk up to that slug looking thing, casually swipe it once (or even twice) and kill it.  Or shoot it once with a blaster.

I wonder what part of 'it's a game' is lost on them...

Oh well.

[AcidCat]

I think the typical MMO-style combat of "let's just stand here and trade blows a while" looks especially ridiculous when you add lightsabers to the mix.

[eldaec]

To be fair, it's be patently boring to walk up to that slug looking thing, casually swipe it once (or even twice) and kill it.  Or shoot it once with a blaster.

I wonder what part of 'it's a game' is lost on them...

Which is why you make 30 slug looking things, and make combat about jedi awesomeness vs npc overwhelming numbers. A bit like Star Wars.

[SnakeCharmer]

Which would be very, very cool if they could it and not have players who have less than up to date gaming rigs start chugging.

[Koyasha]

Working up an entirely new combat system that doesn't rely on standards such as armor and HP would be an interesting way to work a Star Wars game, but technically not particularly necessary.  They could simply do some renaming, and then make appropriately styled animations.

HP becomes Fatigue or Stamina or whatever you want to call it - the guy's ability to continue dodging and evading blows.  When he runs out of 'Stamina', he becomes too tired to fully avoid the next hit, and it scores a fatal/incapacitating strike against him.  Animations would therefore revolve around attack and dodge, with only the occasional animation actually showing contact between weapon and defender.

The main issue is one of animations showing people being hit by lightsabers/blaster bolts, rather than showing them dodging said attacks.

[Goreschach]

Which would be very, very cool if they could it and not have players who have less than up to date gaming rigs start chugging.

Because as we all know, games involving more than 3 enemies onscreen at once have only been possible for the last two years.

[tmp]

I think the typical MMO-style combat of "let's just stand here and trade blows a while" looks especially ridiculous when you add lightsabers to the mix.

Been in KotOR games since the beginning. Whining about it now (and with brand new Force Unleashed that's arcade'y game but does the same thing) ... that's kinda like crying fool there's talking aliens in episodes 1-3. Srsly.

[SnakeCharmer]

Which would be very, very cool if they could it and not have players who have less than up to date gaming rigs start chugging.

Because as we all know, games involving more than 3 enemies onscreen at once have only been possible for the last two years.

Bit of a difference between 3 and 30.

[Venkman]

CoX has done fine for years, with 3, 15, 30 guys on screen. It's how you scale the tech.

[UnSub]

CoX has done fine for years, with 3, 15, 30 guys on screen. It's how you scale the tech.

CoH/V draws the first 50 characters on screen, iirc.

[Margalis]

Been in KotOR games since the beginning. Whining about it now (and with brand new Force Unleashed that's arcade'y game but does the same thing) ... that's kinda like crying fool there's talking aliens in episodes 1-3. Srsly.

What's the statute of limitations on complaining about continuing sucky aspects of things?

Midichlorians? Time doesn't heal all stupid.

[Sunbury]

I remember posting when Anarchy Online came out about this same issue.

   How is it that 30,000 years in the future with hi-tech laser pistols I have to hit a guy in shirt sleeves 10 times to kill him?

All response were:  that's the only way it can work.

Any people wonder why non-fantasy MMO's fail?  They all make 0 sense, even if they invent their own 'physics'.

I'm not a Star Wars geek, but even in the current cartoons, the only time a Jedi has a problem is when they are overwhelmed, fight shielded bots, or an enemy also with a light-saber.

Can a game say its based on Star Wars, have Jedi's and Light Sabers yet be nothing like the combat depicted and still be Star Wars?

[Ghambit]

So what we're looking for is Bushido Blade Online.  Screw up and get slashed once, dead.  I'm not even being sarcastic here, no.  I'd REALLY like a game like that.  Reliant on reflex, positioning, and tactics to gain victory.  It can be done... but they aint gonna do it.  Not because they can't, but because many folks dont want to rely on their own gaming (and fencing) skillz to advance in an MMO they're paying monthly on.

Our talk prior about the MxO system brought up a memory of mine in playing it that combat was actually pretty deadly (at certain iterations).  If you got hit, you got hit pretty hard (all things being equal).  It just gave ample opportunity to prepare and counter.  If you were a high level, things happened slower and you had more time to react.  Low level, things moved impossibly fast... etc.  It's whack-a-mole in its most literal sense, only in reverse... as you level the moles slow down instead of speed up.

I'd still say Bioware's only real compromise between an arcadey fencing game and a traditional RPG is to employ an MxO system with collision physics ala Unleashed.  It really is the perfect marriage IMO.  Is there any other existing system that'd work?

[tmp]

What's the statute of limitations on complaining about continuing sucky aspects of things?

Midichlorians? Time doesn't heal all stupid.

I'd guess if there's indeed a sucky aspect to complain of, it's reasonable to expect the complaints to start when the element is introduced. The basic feedback loop if you will. Otherwise with all other factors remaining the same it's hard to blame developer when they don't address something they never got complaints about.

Using your midichlorians example, this particular complaint about the lightsabers is like starting to whine about stupidity of midichlorians 2 movies *after* ep.1. Is the complaint valid? Maybe, but shit, what took you so long?

[tmp]

I'm not a Star Wars geek, but even in the current cartoons, the only time a Jedi has a problem is when they are overwhelmed, fight shielded bots, or an enemy also with a light-saber.

Can a game say its based on Star Wars, have Jedi's and Light Sabers yet be nothing like the combat depicted and still be Star Wars?

Force Unleashed has lightsaber wielding dude whack repeatedly on regular startroopers and stuff until they fall (still in one piece) And it's made part of the official, Lucas-sanctioned canon.

As far as KotOR goes, they had some special whatever-the-name melee weapons which were said to be able to block the beam of lighsaber, allowing for prolonged duels with targets that weren't Jedi.

[Draegan]

Vibro-blade.?

[Ratman_tf]

I remember posting when Anarchy Online came out about this same issue.

   How is it that 30,000 years in the future with hi-tech laser pistols I have to hit a guy in shirt sleeves 10 times to kill him?

All response were:  that's the only way it can work.

Any people wonder why non-fantasy MMO's fail?  They all make 0 sense, even if they invent their own 'physics'.

Does it make any less sense than stabbing a crocodile 20 times in the head with a sword and it still doesn't die?

"It's magic!" "It's technology!" (nanotech armor can't stop a bullet? Kevlar can do that today...)

Oh, and BTW, I can't wait for SWTOR because I have a totally original idea for a character. He's a Sith who repents and goes over to the light side. So he's a Jedi with a dark emo past. And a purple two bladed lightsaber. And he's an orphan because orcs slaughtered his home village.

[eldaec]

CoX has done fine for years, with 3, 15, 30 guys on screen. It's how you scale the tech.

CoH/V draws the first 50 characters on screen, iirc.

CoH draws enough people on screen that I remember walking into many warehouses with eight man f13 hero teams, and exchanging comments along the lines of 'holy fuck that is a lot of clockwork bitches'.

In 2004.

[eldaec]

Vibro-blade.?

Putting vibro in front of everything is the bullshit excuse for why swords can now cut hardened steel armour like a piece of cheese.

The bullshit excuse for lightsabres not chopping swords in half is that they are reinforced with some bullshit EU alloy that repels the force. Or something equally stupid.


Not even George Lucas went down this road in the prequels. You would think that even retarded EU fans would have realised by now just how shitty this Star Wars pikeman crap really is.

Jedi : Glowy Swords
Everyone else : Pew Pew laser guns

What is so fucking difficult about that? Do mmogs in space really have to have medieval style combat? Really?

[Ratman_tf]

Not even George Lucas went down this road in the prequels. You would think that even retarded EU fans would have realised by now just how shitty this Star Wars pikeman crap really is.

Jedi : Glowy Swords
Everyone else : Pew Pew laser guns

What is so fucking difficult about that? Do mmogs in space really have to have medieval style combat? Really?

[eldaec]

Granted, that was briefly retarded, but it is nowhere near the scale of retarded vibro-bullshit in the EU.

[Venkman]

Granted, that was briefly retarded, but it is nowhere near the scale of retarded vibro-bullshit in the EU.

Doesn't matter, it's canon. 

Oh and as to your crusade against EU shit, what about the novelizations of the movies? 

(Granted, what pissed me off there in the Ep 3 book is the implied fight Mace Windu had with Greivous in which he realized Obi Wan would probably do better against him. That's the fight I want to see!)

[tmp]

Vibro-blade.?

Yup, looked it up and that's apparently it -- http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Vibroblade

Says it used material which could also be utilized to make lightsaber-resistant armour, and having this stuff around makes some mild sense in era where every second guy was running with a glowing stick... as much sense as having the glowing sticks in the first place, anyway.

[tmp]

What is so fucking difficult about that? Do mmogs in space really have to have medieval style combat? Really?

Isn't much of fight when everyone else has to do with pew-pew and the guy with the stick is staid to just reflect the pew pew back as he pleases. That limits potential fights to just between the guys with sticks, and the lack of variation like that gets boring sooner rather than later.

[Ratman_tf]

Bottom line is all the Star Wars EU is severely retarted. And yea, that includes the Timothy Zhan crapfest.

[Triforcer]

Bottom line is all the Star Wars EU is severely retarted. And yea, that includes the Timothy Zhan crapfest.

KOTOR era stuff I have enjoyed.  All the books written for the post ROTJ period can suck me.  Kevin J. Anderson in particular should be jailed.

EDIT:  And also David Wolverton, even more so.  The Courtship of Princess Leia just might be the worst book I have ever read.

[Merusk]

Granted, that was briefly retarded, but it is nowhere near the scale of retarded vibro-bullshit in the EU.

Doesn't matter, it's canon. 

Oh and as to your crusade against EU shit, what about the novelizations of the movies? 

(Granted, what pissed me off there in the Ep 3 book is the implied fight Mace Windu had with Greivous in which he realized Obi Wan would probably do better against him. That's the fight I want to see!)

It's implied because it was shown in the second Clone Wars cartoon series that aired right before the movie released.  Mace really sucked ass considering that fight lasted longer than the Grievous vs Obi Wan fight from the movie and how Grievous was "disarmed" in less than 20s by Ben.

[Sunbury]

What is so fucking difficult about that? Do mmogs in space really have to have medieval style combat? Really?

Isn't much of fight when everyone else has to do with pew-pew and the guy with the stick is staid to just reflect the pew pew back as he pleases. That limits potential fights to just between the guys with sticks, and the lack of variation like that gets boring sooner rather than later.

EXACTLY!  Which is why its ALWAYS TOTALLY LAME to make MMORPG-style combat in future settings, which in turn makes future-setting MMORPG lame - which is why they fail!   QED.

[DraconianOne]

What is so fucking difficult about that? Do mmogs in space really have to have medieval style combat? Really?

Isn't much of fight when everyone else has to do with pew-pew and the guy with the stick is staid to just reflect the pew pew back as he pleases. That limits potential fights to just between the guys with sticks, and the lack of variation like that gets boring sooner rather than later.

EXACTLY!  Which is why its ALWAYS TOTALLY LAME to make MMORPG-style combat in future settings, which in turn makes future-setting MMORPG lame - which is why they fail!   QED.

Logic 101 is just down the hall.  You might want to pop in.

[Venkman]

Some of the EU stuff is ok. I thought the two Zahn books that kicked off the New Jedi Order were actually pretty good. But we're talking "fine for an airport" pretty good here. You don't go to movie-based fiction novels for award-winning high prose.

(Granted, what pissed me off there in the Ep 3 book is the implied fight Mace Windu had with Greivous in which he realized Obi Wan would probably do better against him. That's the fight I want to see!)

It's implied because it was shown in the second Clone Wars cartoon series that aired right before the movie released.  Mace really sucked ass considering that fight lasted longer than the Grievous vs Obi Wan fight from the movie and how Grievous was "disarmed" in less than 20s by Ben.
[/quote]

Hrm? It's been a few years, but from what I recall of that episode, Mace was fighting things trying to rescue Palpatine but the only interaction he had with Greivous was when he Force-crushed his exoskeleton from far range (hence why Greivous is coughing when he gets off the elevator at the beginning of Ep 3). It was that which I thought was a huge let down, because I saw that episode after the movie and only because I had read the book (I want to see a fight dammit!)

[TripleDES]

EXACTLY!  Which is why its ALWAYS TOTALLY LAME to make MMORPG-style combat in future settings, which in turn makes future-setting MMORPG lame - which is why they fail!   QED.

Going by your logic, most successful modern and scifi games are total failures, too, because no one goes down in these in one shot, either. Apart from headshotting, where appropriate.

Scifi MMOs fail because there's a) a generic dislike anything far-future scifi and b) no one really tries doing proper scifi. Those who do, don't have the funding nor skills. Those who have the funding and skills rather continue to churn out what's tried and proven (i.e. fantasy MMO #745101). And if they do, you get silly shit like Tabula Rasa, which is stylistically fantasy with guns, because I sure don't see scifi in there.

[apocrypha]

Going by your logic, most successful modern and scifi games are total failures, too, because no one goes down in these in one shot, either. Apart from headshotting, where appropriate.

Scifi MMOs fail because there's a) a generic dislike anything far-future scifi and b) no one really tries doing proper scifi. Those who do, don't have the funding nor skills. Those who have the funding and skills rather continue to churn out what's tried and proven (i.e. fantasy MMO #745101). And if they do, you get silly shit like Tabula Rasa, which is stylistically fantasy with guns, because I sure don't see scifi in there.

I feel obliged to throw in EVE in response to that, but it's a kinda niche outlier ofc.

[Ratman_tf]

Going by your logic, most successful modern and scifi games are total failures, too, because no one goes down in these in one shot, either. Apart from headshotting, where appropriate.

Scifi MMOs fail because there's a) a generic dislike anything far-future scifi and b) no one really tries doing proper scifi. Those who do, don't have the funding nor skills. Those who have the funding and skills rather continue to churn out what's tried and proven (i.e. fantasy MMO #745101). And if they do, you get silly shit like Tabula Rasa, which is stylistically fantasy with guns, because I sure don't see scifi in there.

I feel obliged to throw in EVE in response to that, but it's a kinda niche outlier ofc.

A Sci-Fi MMOG hasn't done gangbusters because we get crap or niche (or both  ) games set in the Sci-Fi genre.