SWTOR

[Fordel]

They also share one of those talent trees with both AC's though.

[Pendan]

Umm if I play a Mage to level 20 and decide I hate it in WoW, I still have to run through the same garbage on another character.

No you don't. Just travel to another races starting area and do quests in it instead. Alternately, you can just fish your way to level 20. Now after 20 it becomes more of the same areas but so many quests still exist you can pick the good quests or the ones you have not done.

Because killing X number of boars in zone A vs killing Y number of spiders in zone B amounts to a huge difference!

Having a human voice tell be to kill X number of slugs in zone A and X number of birds in zone B is so much better!

I'm not the one saying there's a difference. 

I am saying if you are going to reduce WoW's stories to "Kill 10 Rats" then it is just as easy to reduce SWtoR to Kill 10 Rats. However if you actually want to follow the stories in WoW then you don't have to repeat the same ones nearly as much with multiple characters as you do with SWtoR.

[Evildrider]

On this AC stuff, you're not getting the sameness aspect. You can't go to a different zone. You're using the exact same abilities until you pick your AC. The way they play isn't different enough to make them really distinct classes. As stated, they're way closer to glorified talent trees than different classes.

Soo the fact that a Sith Marauder has about 40 different abilities that a Sith Juggernaut doesn't have doesn't make them different enough?  How about that the Marauder has stealth and Juggernauts don't?  Or the fact that Juggernauts use heavy armor and marauders wear medium.  Or hey Marauders can dual wield and Juggernauts can't.

Sith Warrior's have like 12 abilites that are shared between the two AC's and half of those are basic abilities they both would have even if they were split up into 2 separate ones.

I sincerely doubt the Marauder has 40 different abilities from the Juggernaut.

They also share a resource and combat model, that is kinda important on the scale of 'are these things the same or different'.

I looked it up on Darth Hater Database... Yes Marauders have about 40 abilities that Juggernauts do not.  Also how many classes use mana in WoW?  Sharing a resource isn't really a unique thing.

[Fordel]

How many classes regen that mana pool the same way in WoW? Sharing resource pools is a big thing, especially the way resource pools define gameplay in SWTOR.


Are you counting each rank of an ability on that comparison ?

[Evildrider]

How many classes regen that mana pool the same way in WoW? Sharing resource pools is a big thing, especially the way resource pools define gameplay in SWTOR.


Are you counting each rank of an ability on that comparison ?

Negative they were unique abilities.  http://db.darthhater.com/abilities/class_abilities/sith_warrior/marauder/?filters=6001=10;6002=50;6003=1;6004=1

[Fordel]

How many classes regen that mana pool the same way in WoW? Sharing resource pools is a big thing, especially the way resource pools define gameplay in SWTOR.


Are you counting each rank of an ability on that comparison ?

Negative they were unique abilities.  http://db.darthhater.com/abilities/class_abilities/sith_warrior/marauder/?filters=6001=10;6002=50;6003=1;6004=1

Let me fix that for you:

http://db.darthhater.com/abilities/class_abilities/sith_warrior/marauder/?filters=6001=10;6002=50;6003=1;6004=1;6006=0


-edit- You had passives on, IE: each talent in the trees.

[Nevermore]

I am saying if you are going to reduce WoW's stories to "Kill 10 Rats" then it is just as easy to reduce SWtoR to Kill 10 Rats.

Except from what everyone else who's played it says, it's not.

[Evildrider]

Passives are still different.  It's still abilites that the other class doesn't have.

[Sjofn]

The Smuggler hook is god damn hilarious, I am so glad Sjofn didn't have that spoiled for her  

God, me too. If I wasn't already sold, I would've been right there.

[Fordel]

Eh, not really different ENOUGH though.

Enraged Slash in the Marauder trees compared to Enraged Sunder in the Juggernaut trees for example. Their doing the same thing, same kind of gameplay (using X attack gives bonus rage).


There different, but I'm still not convinced they are different ENOUGH to really make the claim they are truly separate classes.

[Sjofn]

The DW versus not DW thing doesn't count. Like ... aggressively doesn't count. I sort of laugh at the thought that it SHOULD count.

I'm still thinking of them more like RIFT's souls than WoW's classes in terms of "does it make sense for people to switch between them." Between WoW and RIFT, I am seriously not buying the argument the ACs are SO HUGELY DIFFERENT that the world would end if people could switch between them. People will still play the classes that can't do all three roles, and making people play through the same class's story twice just because oops, the guild doesn't have a tank (or healer, or whatever) is stupid.

It'll change some day, I'm sure. I am annoyed I'll have to wait it out, though.

[Mosesandstick]

I still think not switching ACs is pretty minor compared to not having dual spec.

[Sjofn]

No dual spec is stupid too, don't get me wrong there. 

[Mosesandstick]

It was a general comment, not aimed at you .

I would've thought there would be more teeth gnashing from those with high level toons. Levelling with a damage spec was unbelievably quicker and more fun.

[Fordel]

It's the companions that really round things out I think. Like I haven't had any problems or feelings of 'oh god this smells' on my tanking trooper, as long as I have my little medic buddy with me.

[Outlawedprod]

I got into the stress test last weekend.

The launcher needs improvement.  Not sure what of that is still covered so I removed my commentary.

Major annoyance of limited game play in starter area was the phase/instances for the same zone.  I wanted to do a group quest with some others from general chat. We made a group and then found out we were all in different instances.  You can change instances but it activates the cooldown on your quick travel (hearthstone).  So if your travel is on cooldown it won't let you change.  We had to wait 15 minutes so we could all get in the same instance.  They need to put that on a different timer.

[Simond]

Passives are still different.  It's still abilites that the other class doesn't have.

And specs in WoW have passives other specs don't. You can't have this both ways.

[Amaron]

This probably got posted 5 pages ago but NDA is dropped: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=630104

Account Wide Leveling System:  http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=10940945#post10940945
New flashpoint: http://www.swtor.com/news/news-article/20111118

Look, EQ2 and AoC did this *exact* same thing. Play X levels of your big meta class (MAGE THIEF WARRIOR FART) and then choose your "real" class.

Actually they didn't do the same thing in SWTOR and that's the base of the problem.    Shadow and Sage are both AC's of Consular.   Except they don't have the same meta at all.   I think the point here is they made these AC's purely for story reasons only.   Some of them just don't make any sense for AC switching.

[Sjofn]

What do you mean by "meta," out of curiousity?

[Murgos]

I'm sorry, are we only supposed to paste positive things here? HERE, the place that arguably ripped a couple games worse than any other site its size out there?

My review is pretty fucking balanced, all told. I'm trying to offer some perspective on the too much repeat content argument and why it matters.

I point out at that the game is launching with at least as much non-repeat content as any other game ever and you started whining that, "That's not good enough for 2011."  So, I told you to go play the game that has what you want, because, get it?  That game doesn't exist!

At some point you have to launch the game.

e:  It's just that it's literally, the same stupid internet whining about 'bony knees.'  God, it gets old.

[Ingmar]

And honestly, they don't even have to compete with the amount of content that WoW offers, because there is just about nobody left who hasn't done all of that.

[Chimpy]

I will play this game when they let me play as an Ewok.

Yub, yub.

[Draegan]

How many classes regen that mana pool the same way in WoW? Sharing resource pools is a big thing, especially the way resource pools define gameplay in SWTOR.


Are you counting each rank of an ability on that comparison ?

Negative they were unique abilities.  http://db.darthhater.com/abilities/class_abilities/sith_warrior/marauder/?filters=6001=10;6002=50;6003=1;6004=1

Let me fix that for you:

http://db.darthhater.com/abilities/class_abilities/sith_warrior/marauder/?filters=6001=10;6002=50;6003=1;6004=1;6006=0


-edit- You had passives on, IE: each talent in the trees.

Linking curse makes my soul cry.  The guys at R2-DB are amazing.

[Baldrake]

What are the system requirements like? I want to play with my brother, but his computer is crap.

[Sky]

It's the companions that really round things out I think. Like I haven't had any problems or feelings of 'oh god this smells' on my tanking trooper, as long as I have my little medic buddy with me.

So much stuff I've forgotten to talk about since NDA drop, heh. I've heard this from the dude who did the (AWESOME) lvl 50 powertech huttball video a while back. He was saying you're basically stuck with your healer companion. This really bummed me out as I'd much rather be out with my boy blizz (YOU'RE MY BOY, BLIZZ) than have to drag around a healbot.

Baldrake, how crap? My creaky old core 2 duo 2.4GHz/4GB ddr2 800 was running it great, though I had a gtx460 upgrade at the time. Only slowdown I saw was the final minutes of the weekend, dance party on the senate steps with tons of people shooting off aoes.

[Modern Angel]

I point out at that the game is launching with at least as much non-repeat content as any other game ever and you started whining that, "That's not good enough for 2011."  So, I told you to go play the game that has what you want, because, get it?  That game doesn't exist!

At some point you have to launch the game.

e:  It's just that it's literally, the same stupid internet whining about 'bony knees.'  God, it gets old.

No, you don't get it. I don't care. I really don't. I don't alt. This isn't about me. This is about everyone who might heave a heavy sigh and trudge through the same content again, burning themselves out in the process. It's about perception.

I know they have to launch the game. But, I'm sorry, they do have to compete with the WoW of today. It doesn't matter if they launch with as much content as any other game ever. If it's less than WoW's volume TODAY and it becomes an issue? That's lost revenue. It's immensely unfair but them's the breaks.

This is not new ground, here. It's said every single time an MMO launches and it's said in every hushed design meeting. This is the first time it's ever been poopooed here, even remotely questioned, because... STAR WARS! Or maybe BIOWARE! And that's silly. They're not playing by a magically different rulebook other than starting with a little more goodwill based on their single player games.

[Amaron]

What do you mean by "meta," out of curiousity?

Like the basic classes in EQ2.   They played like an introduction to the advanced classes that were similar in many ways.   Consular doesn't even work like that at all.    When you get to 10 and pick Shadow it's like the game throws you sideways into this totally different class.   Consular->Sage is a bit more logical but even then you get the huge range upgrade and all the sudden you're a squishy nuker with a lightsaber stat stick.

After playing Shadow I simply found the idea of AC switching absurd.   It makes sense for some other classes maybe but not for Consular.

[Fordel]

It's the companions that really round things out I think. Like I haven't had any problems or feelings of 'oh god this smells' on my tanking trooper, as long as I have my little medic buddy with me.

So much stuff I've forgotten to talk about since NDA drop, heh. I've heard this from the dude who did the (AWESOME) lvl 50 powertech huttball video a while back. He was saying you're basically stuck with your healer companion. This really bummed me out as I'd much rather be out with my boy blizz (YOU'RE MY BOY, BLIZZ) than have to drag around a healbot.

I  my Medic so that isn't an issue for me.

[Margalis]

It seems like the advanced classes are distinct enough from each other and from the base class that there isn't a mechanical reason for the structure, just story / production reasons.

Although it kind of makes me wonder, if it done for story / production reasons does that mean story content is heavily front-loaded where you get more bang for each dollar spent since the number of classes (and therefore distinct storylines) is fewer?

In a way I'm glad to hear that all the ACs are fairly distinct, but them being so distinct from each other and the base makes the whole setup a little odd. And least in theory the EQ2 design made some sense, though they ended up ditching it anyway.

[Sand]

So there will be a F13 Republic guild? Awesome.

Some of Slap frequents F13.  However, Slap is not an F13 guild per se.

 
This must be why I had no idea who or what Slap was when it was mentioned.  BC I know, but I want to play the republic side.

Edit- stupid autocorrect.

[Nevermore]

What do you mean by "meta," out of curiousity?

Like the basic classes in EQ2.   They played like an introduction to the advanced classes that were similar in many ways.   Consular doesn't even work like that at all.    When you get to 10 and pick Shadow it's like the game throws you sideways into this totally different class.   Consular->Sage is a bit more logical but even then you get the huge range upgrade and all the sudden you're a squishy nuker with a lightsaber stat stick.

After playing Shadow I simply found the idea of AC switching absurd.   It makes sense for some other classes maybe but not for Consular.

Wow! That sounds totally different from a Shaman that goes from Enhance (melee) to Elemental (ranged! stat stick!) to Resto (healing!).

[Sjofn]

I was thinking of the different druid specs myself. 

[Amaron]

Wow! That sounds totally different from a Shaman that goes from Enhance (melee) to Elemental (ranged! stat stick!) to Resto (healing!).

I thought they would be similar in the way you describe (ignoring your Sarcasm).   It's really not the same at all.   To be honest Consular->Shadow felt broken at low levels because of it.   It was like playing a class that was missing 80% of it's abilities.

[Nevermore]

Which still sounds a lot like Shaman.  Not even getting into Feral Druids, where you literally can't do it until level 8 (now, it used to be level 20!).

Edit: and it used to be it took you until level 40 to play as Enhance doing anything other than auto attacking as your melee attack.  For a melee class.

[Sky]

But, I'm sorry, they do have to compete with the WoW of today. It doesn't matter if they launch with as much content as any other game ever. If it's less than WoW's volume TODAY and it becomes an issue?

Except anyone who wants to play through WoW's content already has. I think it's more about can they sustain folks through GW2's launch and the first Rift expansion. BWA has a solid game on their hands, with a ton of launch content, compared to other young games. WoW didn't have shit for content compared to EQ1 when it released, did it?

Sure, plenty of people will stick with WoW because they're invested and their friends play there. Lots of people still play UO or EQ1.