SWTOR

[tmp]

So what it really boils down to, it sounds like to me, is you didn't like the story they elected to tell. That's fine, but I disagree. The theme of futility and that you aren't in fact the center of the universe were both things I actually enjoyed.

For a game where you aren't supposed to be the center of the universe DA2 has more than enough of the usual "everyone hangs at the protagonist's lips, comes to him/her with their problems like there is no other capable person in the entire world, and generally think you're the bee's knees" NPC behaviour. The way it's so schizophrenic about it didn't make it feel to me like the theme was "futility", but rather "we are just setting up the plot for DA3 and we're on tight budget".

Granted, it's a glass full/glass empty thing. I've seen people reasoning with themselves that the assets reuse was just a brilliant way to stress the framed narrative, as it's a sign that Varric just didn't bother with environment descriptions, too.

[Pezzle]

DA 2 might claim you are not the center of the universe in the story but it is simply not true.  Everything triggers off of your actions and decisions.  There is nothing wrong with that type of game, it is simply a case of saying one thing and doing another.  A hard sell that came up short.  Not a terrible game, but certainly not exceptional.

[Ingmar]

So what it really boils down to, it sounds like to me, is you didn't like the story they elected to tell. That's fine, but I disagree. The theme of futility and that you aren't in fact the center of the universe were both things I actually enjoyed.

For a game where you aren't supposed to be the center of the universe DA2 has more than enough of the usual "everyone hangs at the protagonist's lips, comes to him/her with their problems like there is no other capable person in the entire world, and generally think you're the bee's knees" NPC behaviour. The way it's so schizophrenic about it didn't make it feel to me like the theme was "futility", but rather "we are just setting up the plot for DA3 and we're on tight budget".

Granted, it's a glass full/glass empty thing. I've seen people reasoning with themselves that the assets reuse was just a brilliant way to stress the framed narrative, as it's a sign that Varric just didn't bother with environment descriptions, too.

They've admitted openly they did the asset reuse too heavily, they heard about it loud and clear from everyone - thus the DLC has all been new maps. I think reusing the city maps was correct/sensible, since you really are visiting the same locations for narrative reasons, but reusing the same cave map for multiple different caves was the big fail.

As for the "everyone hangs around the protagonist", you are still the central character even if you aren't the most important person in the world. I can wish they'd done more with de-emphasizing the central role of the character (more things like Varric's bullshit story about his confrontation with his brother for example) but when they tried it with Leliana's Song they heard *overwhelmingly* from people that they didn't want content that didn't involve their character at all, so they're a little constrained there. I think they do a decent job of conveying that your party members are hanging out without you even being there, etc., which I think helps make them feel like equals and you're just more of a social hub rather than a leader (every group of friends has one.)

[Paelos]

So at what price point would DA:2 have to drop down to before I felt like I wasn't getting scammed?

<Sjofn doesn't need to answer this question>

[eldaec]

Depends on how much of a discount you have to apply to make it worth your while dealing with Bioware's terrible DLC interface.

[Sky]

My threshold based on the demo and reviews is $5.

[Morfiend]

I bought DA2 for full price and dont feel ripped off. I enjoyed the story and also the more actiony combat. I fucking hate the stupid Bioware social/DLC thing, it is a complete pile of shit.

[Pezzle]

Maybe 15 bucks?  20 if you get a DLC content pack?  The game has some entertainment value.  

[Ingmar]

My threshold based on the demo and reviews is $5.

IMO the demo is not really the greatest face the game could have put forward.

[Rokal]

Wait for the 'complete edition' (I doubt it'll be called Game of the Year edition :p), then wait for that to hit $10-20.

[Sjofn]

So at what price point would DA:2 have to drop down to before I felt like I wasn't getting scammed?

<Sjofn doesn't need to answer this question>

I will anyway! Twenty bucks, probably? It sort of depends on what you like and what things enrage you. If repeating enviroments fill you with rage (I certainly thought it was silly every cave was the same damn cave, but it didn't keep me up at night, for example) or you like saving the world and that's ALL, it probably drops lower.


I have to laugh at the "everyone thinks you're awesome and asks you to do shit" complaint, just because they sort of ... have to do that. Or you don't really have a game. Plus I doubt Varric is going to tell the Seeker about all those times someone thought about asking you for help but asked someone else instead. She doesn't give a shit about that. Plus every time an NPC doesn't think you are 100% rad, people complain about said NPC being an asshole. Constantly. Forever. (See: Carver.)

[Paelos]

So at what price point would DA:2 have to drop down to before I felt like I wasn't getting scammed?

<Sjofn doesn't need to answer this question>

I will anyway!

 

[Bunk]

I liked DA2 quite a bit actually (yay, off topic tangent in the SW thread!), I finished it (which I never managed for DA1) but thinking about the asset reuse issues made me realize something. Bioware games generally do a shitty job of making the environment anywhere near as interesting as the story.

Can anyone think of a time you entered a zone in a Bioware game and wanted to take a screenshot of it? Or a time where the room you entered was really creepy and it added to the feel of the game? Maybe occasionally, but generally - it's just not there in their games.

Skyrim on the other hand - it's been out less than a week and how many screenshots have we already posted on just our own forum?

Bioware needs to take the time to put as much effort in to the environments as the do the story. I can think of a couple cases in Mass Effect where they made the effort (the awesome planet surface view of the "don't let the asteroid hit the planet" DLC in ME1, maybe the Asari's club in ME2). But their predominately isometric view games? - not so much.

I'm hoping there's something in SWOTR that will actually make me pause and say "cool".

[Rokal]

I'd agree that it's definitely not their strongest point. The only area that made me want to take screenshots in a Bioware game was late in the deep roads of DA:O. You had a pretty long journey far into a dead civilization, deeper than anyone has gone in ages, and the art of the area aided that feel. In DA:2 the deep roads were like a 15 minute detour that re-used the same art. It really cheapened the effect.

[Fordel]

I'm hoping there's something in SWOTR that will actually make me pause and say "cool".

There is no lack of that in SWTOR, the environments are properly Starwars scaled.



ME1 had the big gauntlet on the outside of the Citadel, where you are fighting geth while watching the reaper try to crack into the station. That was pretty awesome.

[Simond]

DA2 derail!



Also: DA2 was the worst RPG Bioware ever released.

[Ingmar]

Says a dude who loved Spelljammer. 

(The NWN1 single player campaign is clearly the worst IMO. Not commenting on the tools, just NWN if you treated it as just a single game.)

[Ingmar]

I'd agree that it's definitely not their strongest point. The only area that made me want to take screenshots in a Bioware game was late in the deep roads of DA:O. You had a pretty long journey far into a dead civilization, deeper than anyone has gone in ages, and the art of the area aided that feel. In DA:2 the deep roads were like a 15 minute detour that re-used the same art. It really cheapened the effect.

There's some really wonderful zone art back in the 2D days of the Infinity Engine. BG2 areas often look fantastic even at 1920x1200 because of the way the art was done.

[tmp]

I have to laugh at the "everyone thinks you're awesome and asks you to do shit" complaint, just because they sort of ... have to do that. Or you don't really have a game.

And if they have to do it in order to have the game then it's little point in the game pretending it's totally not doing that and how it's all awesome and original this way, no? It just makes as much sense as "The story of Johnny-no-friends and his trusty bunch of companions".

edit: this isn't to say i think a game about such protagonist is impossible, period. It just simply doesn't work with the template BioWare chose to follow. Something i'd find hard to believe they didn't realize themselves.

[Montague]

I'm hoping there's something in SWOTR that will actually make me pause and say "cool".

There is no lack of that in SWTOR, the environments are properly Starwars scaled.



ME1 had the big gauntlet on the outside of the Citadel, where you are fighting geth while watching the reaper try to crack into the station. That was pretty awesome.

Coruscant was awesome, nothing in DA really compares.

For those of us who tested last weekend Stephen Reid tweeted that all characters created that weekend will still be available to play in the next test.
 

[proudft]

Says a dude who loved Spelljammer. 

(The NWN1 single player campaign is clearly the worst IMO. Not commenting on the tools, just NWN if you treated it as just a single game.)

I think the NWN1 campaign is the only Bioware game I've ever finished.  I have no idea why that one is the one.  But the only others I've tried are:

Baldur's Gate 1: couldn't get into, stopped somewhere in the first town.
KOTRO: liked this one fine, but it started crashing when I reloaded my save.
Dragon Age: don't like the combat, stopped at some castle zombie invasion.

I like Spelljammer too, COINCIDENCE?   

[Evildrider]

Yes, you are broken too!   

[Paelos]

I liked the Kashyyyk in KOTOR. It was neat looking and produced the right feel for the place.

[Ingmar]

I have to laugh at the "everyone thinks you're awesome and asks you to do shit" complaint, just because they sort of ... have to do that. Or you don't really have a game.

And if they have to do it in order to have the game then it's little point in the game pretending it's totally not doing that and how it's all awesome and original this way, no? It just makes as much sense as "The story of Johnny-no-friends and his trusty bunch of companions".

edit: this isn't to say i think a game about such protagonist is impossible, period. It just simply doesn't work with the template BioWare chose to follow. Something i'd find hard to believe they didn't realize themselves.

"Not the Chosen One who saves the world" doesn't mean it has to be "this guy isn't important to anyone in the world at all" for it to be unusual.

[Paelos]

Nobody roleplays the guy that gets cut down by a horde of orcs in a raid on his village.

[Ingmar]

I did just a couple weekends ago. New character is promising though. 

[tmp]

"Not the Chosen One who saves the world" doesn't mean it has to be "this guy isn't important to anyone in the world at all" for it to be unusual.

"the protagonist without influence" suggests to me the conditions applied to character in question are much closer to the latter, rather than the former. If just because otherwise it allows for such wide range of characters it becomes meaningless.

If when people say "my character has no influence and it's awesome" they actually mean "the story doesn't involve literally saving the world but i still get to keep all the perks of being the Chosen One (and it's awesome)" then it's quite a different argument, and one that'd force me to laugh.

[Lantyssa]

(The NWN1 single player campaign is clearly the worst IMO. Not commenting on the tools, just NWN if you treated it as just a single game.)

NWN2 beats it, pants down.

[UnSub]

Obviously this isn't enough of a dataset to draw significant conclusions from but, based on these, if I had the time and the means for a study, I'd put forward the hypothesis that only 50% of players who start a game actually finish a game (gameplay issues not withstanding). Someone must have done/be doing something similar, surely?

Actually, I would change this hypothesis to say, "Only half of players who start a even very good games finish them.".  I would expect that average to mediocre to poor games actually have far less of a fulfillment rate than 50%.

At some point (because I'm 1) interested and 2) broken) I plan to go through all the Steam achievements and see what proportion who activated a game actually finished it.

My issue around 'finishing' the game is that without players holding onto the narrative, they are going to be left with the mechanics to keep them engaged with SWOR. No-one really seems that thrilled by SWOR's mechanics. Maybe it will replace WoW for a number of players, and maybe it will pull in a bunch of first timers, but MMOs aren't as sticky as they used to be, particularly with the F2P options out there.

[Ingmar]

(The NWN1 single player campaign is clearly the worst IMO. Not commenting on the tools, just NWN if you treated it as just a single game.)

NWN2 beats it, pants down.

That was Obsidian (and Neeshka's voice aside I would argue NWN2 was a better single player experience than NWN1 anyway.)

[Numtini]

Nobody roleplays the guy that gets cut down by a horde of orcs in a raid on his village.

People do in Second Life. Well as long as the orcs rape them first.

[Amaron]

Bioware games generally do a shitty job of making the environment anywhere near as interesting as the story.

Artstyle withstanding:  SWTOR is the first MMO where I constantly feel the need to wander around just LOOKING at stuff.  Environment is one area where they have outdone themselves completely .

[Evildrider]

(The NWN1 single player campaign is clearly the worst IMO. Not commenting on the tools, just NWN if you treated it as just a single game.)

NWN2 beats it, pants down.

I usually beat it pants down as well.   

[Sjofn]

By the way, I am pleased to hear my two characters with any levels to speak of will exist during the next round of testing, I kinda want to try a flashpoint when one of us (I was level 9, I think Ingmar was too, and we both had tank companions) can actually heal. :P

[Rokal]

What level did you get companions anyway? That was the one other feature I wanted to see before the game launched.