SWTOR

[eldaec]

I might see your point if pvp was at all relevant in swtor.

A pve solo friendly  game would seem like the ideal place to push some unusual classes and abilities.

[Paelos]

A pve solo friendly game would seem like the ideal place to push some unusual classes and abilities.

I don't think there's any good game to push unusual classes or abilities if they have a multiplayer component.

Single player, sure. Multiplayer, that's just asking for trouble.

[Merusk]

If a game has PVP, it will be relevant and make impact on PvE -  regardless of the intentions or statements of the devs prior to release.

[DraconianOne]

Margalis had a hard-on for FF11 for years and a raging hatred of WOW since beta, so what he wants is vastly different from the folks targeting this game.  He's as easy to ignore as folks going in to Eve threads and trolling "LOLZ SPREADSHETZ IN SPACE!"  While factually concrete it ignores that - hey - some people want that.

He also hates KOTOR and dislikes Star Wars. There's definitely a certain amount of "This game is probably not for you" even before getting into classes and mechanics.

[Ingmar]

They're going to have PVP servers and PVP battlegrounds, so they have to support it at least to an extent, which I'm sure is the major driver behind the mirrored classes.

[Reg]

You know you get a lightsaber right?

Of course he knows about the light saber. He's sitting on it as we speak. 

[Kageru]

Margalis had a hard-on for FF11 for years and a raging hatred of WOW since beta, so what he wants is vastly different from the folks targeting this game.  He's as easy to ignore as folks going in to Eve threads and trolling "LOLZ SPREADSHETZ IN SPACE!"  While factually concrete it ignores that - hey - some people want that.

He also hates KOTOR and dislikes Star Wars. There's definitely a certain amount of "This game is probably not for you" even before getting into classes and mechanics.

.... he seems to be making a simple, value-neutral, point that 8 classes on paper are 4 classes mechanically. Which can be a bad thing in terms of diversity and a good thing in terms of classes being distinct and useful.

[Ingmar]

value-neutral

sad Star Wars fanboys falling all over themselves to see who can white knight the hardest.

pages of "HOW DARE YOU!?!?!"

But you know - Star Wars fans. 

Yeah, he's clearly being totally reasonable, not reading anything into other people's posts that isn't actually there, and not trolling anyone at all because he's got some kind of weird thing about Star Wars. Nothing like that.

[Rasix]

Too bad we missed quoting his earlier edit (it was Triforcer edit worthy).  I think at that point he realized he had gone full retard and stepped back a bit.

[Margalis]

Ingmar: I only said that after the SW fans spazzed out.

One person said that merely pointing out that the classes are mirrored is bitching and they should just shut up and enjoy it. A second person chimes in that merely talking about whether classes are mirrored is trolling. A third person chimes in that discussing the number of classes means people are trying to actively not enjoy the game.

Only after that did I make my comments. If you don't want to be called a sad Star Wars fanboy don't act like one. Is it really out of bounds to talk about HOW MANY CLASSES ARE IN THE GAME?

For the record your posts have been reasonable. This was my incredible troll:

The game has 8 classes, or actually 7, which is a pretty low number. That doesn't make it wretched excrement but it seems like a perfectly valid thing to point out. Seven classes is certainly on the low end.

Oh no the horror! If anything I was mistaken because the number of mechanically distinct classes is 4, not 7. But you really think it's fair to say that *I* am the one reading too much into people's posts when the comment above is somehow "trolling"?

I'm talking about the number of classes in the game. Wow, what incredible trolling!!!

[Margalis]

Of course he knows about the light saber. He's sitting on it as we speak.  

Why haven't you committed suicide yet?

It seems like the sole reason you exist is to turn every Star Wars discussion personal. A life like that can't be worth living.

Oh yeah... I added a smiley so it's cool bro!

[Ingmar]

Because you don't have a history of trolling the Star Wars fans, am I right? You're like the reverse boy who cried wolf here, troll long enough and even your non-troll posts start to look like trolls.

It might help if you didn't leap on 'sad Star Wars fanboy' as the reason people disagree with you; they might just, you know, disagree without an agenda or some kind of blinders on.

[Nevermore]

They're going to have PVP servers and PVP battlegrounds, so they have to support it at least to an extent, which I'm sure is the major driver behind the mirrored classes.

While I think that both PvP and PvE are drivers, I'd think PvE is the larger driver since it'll be easier to balance the end game encounters with both sides having identical classes.

[Margalis]

It might help if you didn't leap on 'sad Star Wars fanboy' as the reason people disagree with you; they might just, you know, disagree without an agenda or some kind of blinders on.

What is the actual disagreement here?

Quote the thing I said that you and others disagree with that is controversial to the point of trolling.

To me the only disagreement here is that some people think it's out of bounds to simply discuss how many mechanically distinct classes are in the game - even WITHOUT making any value judgements on that number. What exactly do you disagree with?

[UnSub]

This thread has mostly lost its joie de vivre since page 300.

 

It's because we're grinding out posts on trash mobs.

As soon as an epic boss appears, we'll be good to go.

[Ingmar]

Certainly the fact that the classes are mechanically mirrors of each other has been presented as a criticism. I'm not even sure what you think about it to be honest, but given you piled right onto the 'sad fanboy' thing it is fair to say I can take a guess. 

I do agree that a little of the reaction has been pretty retarded (especially the "STOP MIN/MAXING AND JUST PLAY" one from whoever that was), but it also isn't exactly dozens of fanboys coming out of the woodwork with torches and pitchforks.

[Margalis]

Are you even arguing with anything I said or are you arguing just to argue? Uh-oh this Margalis said something, I better find some reason to post a negative response!

As far as I can tell your only point of contention is that I trolled some people AFTER they called me a troll for making completely reasonable statements. That's your complaint?

Again, what did I say that was so unreasonable that you and others apparently so strongly disagree with?

[Ingmar]

I thought arguing just to argue was what we did in this thread?

[01101010]

This thread has mostly lost its joie de vivre since page 300.

 

It's because we're grinding out posts on trash mobs.

As soon as an epic boss appears, we'll be good to go.

Anyone got any idea how to handle the NDA? I heard full on DPS till about 40% then kill the adds and watch the rumor attacks, then burn down the rest.

[Fordel]

A pve solo friendly game would seem like the ideal place to push some unusual classes and abilities.

I don't think there's any good game to push unusual classes or abilities if they have a multiplayer component.

Single player, sure. Multiplayer, that's just asking for trouble.

Yea, even putting PvP issues aside, look at the issues that the original Paladin/Shaman split caused in Vanilla ward. Fuck, look at what FearWard on dwarf priests did 

Then you have DaoC's history of cluster fucking.

God damn doublefrost math.

[Shatter]

So TOR has approx 803,000 American Pre-order Box sales so far?

http://www.vgchartz.com/preorders.php

[Evildrider]

If a game has PVP, it will be relevant and make impact on PvE -  regardless of the intentions or statements of the devs prior to release.

This is also probably because of the PvP guys that came from Warhammer.  Where they tried to make mirrors but changed them up too much and it ended up not working so well.

[Evildrider]

So TOR has approx 803,000 American Box sales so far?

http://www.vgchartz.com/preorders.php

Yep and that's just in the US/North America.  Add in digital and overseas sales and I wonder if they are gonna be at 2mil+ for launch.

[Sjofn]

Uh-oh this Margalis said something, I better find some reason to post a negative response!

 

[Margalis]

Per-orders and box sales are not even close to the same thing.

[Shatter]

Per-orders and box sales are not even close to the same thing.

changed it.  Its basically americas only pre-order box sales

[Amaron]

.... he seems to be making a simple, value-neutral, point that 8 classes on paper are 4 classes mechanically. Which can be a bad thing in terms of diversity and a good thing in terms of classes being distinct and useful.

Wait what?   Isn't it 16 classes on paper that are 8 classes mechanically?

[Lantyssa]

It'd depend how different the ACs are from one another.  And where you draw the line on being different classes.  As they come from the same base class, one could argue that they are not different, for the most part.

Or they could develop in very different ways.  The downside to that would be not finding out if you like that route until well into the character's existence.  Maybe not a huge set-back, but enough to make it annoying.

[Jherad]

.... he seems to be making a simple, value-neutral, point that 8 classes on paper are 4 classes mechanically. Which can be a bad thing in terms of diversity and a good thing in terms of classes being distinct and useful.

Wait what?   Isn't it 16 classes on paper that are 8 classes mechanically?

Yes. Each side has:

Force User 1 - splits into 2 advanced classes at level 10.

Force User 2 - Splits into 2 advanced classes...

Ranged DPS 1 - Splits into 2 advanced classes...

Ranged DPS 2 - Splits into 2 advanced classes...

Each side more or less mirrors the other. There are big differences in aesthetics/feel and storyline. So 16 classes total after lvl 10, 8 mirrors. There are essentially 4 early archetypes per side, but you specialise quickly.

Within each of the 8 ACs, you can assign skill points amongst three trees (1 of which is common to the archetype) to focus the class towards a particular role (dps, tanking etc).

I'm pretty sure that's all NDA-safe ( http://www.swtor.com/info/systems/advanced-classes ).

[Reg]

Why haven't you committed suicide yet?

It seems like the sole reason you exist is to turn every Star Wars discussion personal. A life like that can't be worth living.

Oh yeah... I added a smiley so it's cool bro!

/em Runs weeping to my room. Weeping!

 

[Reg]

It'd depend how different the ACs are from one another.  And where you draw the line on being different classes.  As they come from the same base class, one could argue that they are not different, for the most part.

Or they could develop in very different ways.  The downside to that would be not finding out if you like that route until well into the character's existence.  Maybe not a huge set-back, but enough to make it annoying.

I'd say it's effectively 8 classes even if the mechanics are really four mirrored pairs.  If you play the mirrored class I think the differing storyline is enough to distinguish it from its counterpart - even more so if you play a different advanced class.

But you're right. If you really hated a class' mechanics then you're probably not going to like them any better when you play its mirror.

[Margalis]

What a novel observation.

[Reg]

What a novel observation.

Oh please. I'm blushing!

[Margalis]

I really don't get why you leap at the opportunity to turn Star Wars video game talk personal. If I didn't know better I'd think you were George Lucas or the lead designer or SWTOR.

[Reg]

That's a fine looking light saber you have there. Is it double bladed?