SWTOR

[Merusk]

It hurts the artists feelings?  That's the only reason I can come up with outside of PVP concerns about warriors hiding as mages or some such.

[Zane0]

I appreciate appearance tabs but people also like status signifiers. See the real world for details.

[Paelos]

I'm against all appearance tabs. MMO fuckers can't have nice things. It would be worse than shoulderpads.

[Lantyssa]

I appreciate appearance tabs but people also like status signifiers. See the real world for details.

Wouldn't having the finest robe available be a symbol of status?

[Rendakor]

And allowing you to hide your Robe of +10 Epeen under level 1 trash prevents you from being easily identifiable as a powerful target in PVP.

[Zetor]

Death robes were all the rage back in the day, I hear. 

[Sky]

Seriously though, if they add in an appearance tab they could side step the entire issue, I'm not sure why this feature hasn't become 100% standard in MMOs.

Agree 100%.

If it makes you cry in pvp, disable it on pvp servers. And grow up and play a pvp game based on a level playing field, not who spends the most time grinding gear and levels while you're at it 

Really bugged me in Rift to walk around in cheesy piecemeal armor, especially when I had some cool armor sitting in the bank in case they actually implemented appearance slots. My wizard in EQ2 with his fiery Ro aura and lava plate quested in lavastorm was one of the coolest looks ever in an mmo.

[Venkman]

This whole hiding leet under crap is a red herring in my opinion, except for maybe the dozen people per server that recognize the 1-5 pieces of uber gear at the very top tiers only a percentage of even that group will ever get anyway. The moment the person activates an ability, you know what they're about. So I would hope nobody's designing their entire aesthetic model around being able to recognize the slightly purple sword being different than the more-purple sword at a thousand paces.

Appearance tabs should be standard by now. They're almost there but it'll take SWTOR launching with it to make it official probably. I expect Rift to patch it in zoom. Even DCUO had it.

These games compel people to play at maximum zoon, but allow people to preen themselves when at the AH and whatnot. That's fine. But don't design over the top gear that looks good at maximum zoom when most times what someone looks like in that mode is the least of their concern. Make it look good for the times people care to look good.

[Sheepherder]

This whole hiding leet under crap is a red herring in my opinion, except for maybe the dozen people per server that recognize the 1-5 pieces of uber gear at the very top tiers only a percentage of even that group will ever get anyway.

It's a red herring anyways.  Nothing dictates that an appearance tab must be always on to all people, or even that the changes it makes have to leave the client.

[Lakov_Sanite]

It's a house of cards.  Once you let the leet sword of newb pwnage look like a rolling pin for anyone who wants to, people start to realize that these are indeed just meaningless pixels.

[Koyasha]

This whole hiding leet under crap is a red herring in my opinion, except for maybe the dozen people per server that recognize the 1-5 pieces of uber gear at the very top tiers only a percentage of even that group will ever get anyway.

It's a red herring anyways.  Nothing dictates that an appearance tab must be always on to all people, or even that the changes it makes have to leave the client.

Actually, as soon as you get into 'different people see my character differently' I start to become unhappy.  In a single player game, fiddling with my appearance is for my benefit because I want to look cool, but in a multiplayer game it's that, AND I want to project a particular appearance to others.  If others see me depending on their settings and not mine, that makes me unhappy.

That's one of the things I hated about the EQ Luclin models.  It upset me that other people were not always seeing me the same way I saw myself.  Similarly, in FFXI, while there were some really cool model edits out there for everything from your moogle to your character, I really only played with them once or twice then went back to normal, because it didn't feel right if I was seeing myself differently than others saw me.

[Venkman]

This whole hiding leet under crap is a red herring in my opinion, except for maybe the dozen people per server that recognize the 1-5 pieces of uber gear at the very top tiers only a percentage of even that group will ever get anyway.

It's a red herring anyways.  Nothing dictates that an appearance tab must be always on to all people, or even that the changes it makes have to leave the client.

Go that far down the rabbit hole and ya end up wondering why these games have graphics at all 

If RPGs didn't appeal to people with vanity, there would never have been complaints about character models and eventually developers capitulating with appearance tabs.

But it needs to be consistent. My avatar is what I want to look at (itself only a fairly recent thing too) and what I want to show others.

For people who only care what they're looking at, they can go download client-side skins.

[Sheepherder]

I really only played with them once or twice then went back to normal, because it didn't feel right if I was seeing myself differently than others saw me.

So don't use it?  Or are you so anal retentive that the converse is also true, and other people aren't allowed to see other things on their end only?

Go that far down the rabbit hole and ya end up wondering why these games have graphics at all  

If RPGs didn't appeal to people with vanity, there would never have been complaints about character models and eventually developers capitulating with appearance tabs.

But it needs to be consistent. My avatar is what I want to look at (itself only a fairly recent thing too) and what I want to show others.

For people who only care what they're looking at, they can go download client-side skins.

Go down that rabbit hole far enough and I end up wondering whether you're a douchebag.

Also, your last suggestion will tend to get people banned, depending on anti-cheating measures.

[Nevermore]

And allowing you to hide your Robe of +10 Epeen under level 1 trash prevents you from being easily identifiable as a powerful target in PVP.

Or, you know, fuck PvP.

[Margalis]

Personally I like being able to look at somewhat and know their equipment/level.

[Paelos]

I'm just waiting for the day when they release shoulder pads with mini-light-sabers on them so you appearance tab people really lose your shit. Darthd00d is totally gonna pwn you in those things.

[Lakov_Sanite]

appearance tab = every single jedi regardless of gender dressed as slave leia.

[Sheepherder]

Personally I like being able to look at somewhat and know their equipment/level.

In a game like WoW it's easier and surer to tell by looking at their unit frame than what their character is wearing.

But again, client-side only is easy.  Hell, most engines do it as a development/debug feature by default and it has to be toggled off because ~anal retention~.

[Koyasha]

I really only played with them once or twice then went back to normal, because it didn't feel right if I was seeing myself differently than others saw me.

So don't use it?  Or are you so anal retentive that the converse is also true, and other people aren't allowed to see other things on their end only?

I didn't mean to say I don't like client-side mods existing, I just meant that an appearance tab that only works for you is no different than a client side mod, and unsatisfactory - it would be no better than having no appearance tab at all, since it wouldn't fulfill the purpose.

[Fordel]

The only thing I would agree with in terms of forced appearance, is keeping a proper silhouette, assuming you have distinguishable silhouette's to begin with and they actually matter.


TF2 is probably one of the best examples of silhouetting. 


WoW is a great example of gear appearance not meaning fuck all in terms of power level or class/role silhouette.

[Ingmar]

Personally I just don't want to see someone fighting a dragon in an evening gown instead of a suit of platemail. Ruins the game for me to see that sort of thing frankly (unless we're talking like a superhero game or something, where that's "normal".)

[Nevermore]

Fighting a dragon in an evening gown is only slightly more ridiculous than this:

[WindupAtheist]

I'm just plain never playing another MMO where I have to walk around in blue shoes and a green hat and purple gloves just because some fun-hating faggot wants to tell me how silhouette identification is totally an important tactical consideration when deciding who to sloppily fight with in the middle of the road in AB. Fuck you, I'm just not playing.

I'm still messing around in UO, mostly as a social game these days. Anymore everyone is back to wearing pretty much all crafted stuff, since with the right skills/ingredients a crafter can put whatever stats he wants on anything now. So you just tell the guy you want a suit that looks like X and does Y, then you dye it for good measure.

But that's the minimum I'll accept. I'd delete my character before I'd wear that fucking idiotic murloc costume in WoW, stats be damned.

[palmer_eldritch]

I really only played with them once or twice then went back to normal, because it didn't feel right if I was seeing myself differently than others saw me.

So don't use it?  Or are you so anal retentive that the converse is also true, and other people aren't allowed to see other things on their end only?

The whole point of dressing up my character to look cool in an MMO is to show it off to other people.

This feature exists in EQ2 and it works great. The tanks don't show up in dresses - they like showing up in sets of really cool, powerful-looking armour, because that's the image they want to present to other players. But they can show up in armour where every piece is the same colour instead of a patchwork of different colours and styles.

[Lantyssa]

Fighting a dragon in an evening gown is only slightly more ridiculous than this:
<murloc>

I'm pretty sure that's more ridiculous than an evening gown.

Games with appearance tabs have already shown that most people won't do that.  They want to look cool, not silly.

[Merusk]

What I've gotten out of this so far is that EQ2 at some point implemented "Cool looking" armors.  I remain on the "not likely" part of that point until disproven.

The rest is just an old debate with little evidence of detriment other than maybes and what-ifs worthy of an "R" next to the representatives' names.

[palmer_eldritch]

The point is that we don't need to resort to what ifs or maybes because appearance tabs have been tried already, so there is evidence to show how players respond to them (eg, they don't dress their warriors like mages).

[Venkman]

Also, your last [hack client skinning] suggestion will tend to get people banned, depending on anti-cheating measures.

You're basically suggesting the same thing (client side skinning) but ignoring the reason why client-side only skinning is not prevalent already. What an avatar looks like matters to the player both in what they see and what others see of them. If the only thing that mattered is what a person sees of themselves, your idea would have already been standard years ago. This is not some new concept.

Or, like Merusk said.

[Malakili]

Looks like all hell has broken loose since I mentioned the appearance tab.  Frankly, goofy gear won't totally make me quit the way WUA is talking, but the same time, when CoD: Black Ops has better character customization than an RPG, we have a problem.  I think LOTRO is a fairly decent example, I always liked how my characters looked in the game.

[Sky]

Something Battlefield Heroes got right, too. If it did get silly at times, but that was part of the fun.

I think most mmo is really struggling with creating art assets for characters. Rift had some great Erol Odus-inspired pieces but the majority of it was pretty bland. Then again I didn't see raid or high end gear...but I won't rant onto that tangent of exclusive design in a genre that strives for inclusiveness again. 

Shoulderpads aside, it is a nice change of pace to see tech armors. And the jedi (sans shoulderpads) wore armor in the Clone Wars, basing on that style is a really good idea imo.

Fake edit - I stand corrected...shoulderpads in effect!

[UnSub]

As a character progresses, the traditional expectation is that they find 'better looking' (i.e. more sparkly and more impractical) equipment that serves as a way of showing a character is getting better. These more garish items also have better stats.

It's an RPG throwback that a lot of MMO developers hesitate to throw off, so they come up with reasons why they shouldn't (e.g. "In PvP, players need to be able to see each others' true gear"). Also, breaking the appearance / performance link throws off conventional MMO players too, as seen in CoH/V and other superhero MMOs.

However, I like to have my character look vaguely like I want them to look, not like they got dressed from the remnants of a Pride parade float.

[Malakili]

As a character progresses, the traditional expectation is that they find 'better looking' (i.e. more sparkly and more impractical) equipment that serves as a way of showing a character is getting better. These more garish items also have better stats.

It's an RPG throwback that a lot of MMO developers hesitate to throw off, so they come up with reasons why they shouldn't (e.g. "In PvP, players need to be able to see each others' true gear"). Also, breaking the appearance / performance link throws off conventional MMO players too, as seen in CoH/V and other superhero MMOs.

However, I like to have my character look vaguely like I want them to look, not like they got dressed from the remnants of a Pride parade float.

I guess?  I mean sure, a Mithril chain mail is going to look nicer than a plain chain mail, but I never assumed a +2 Plate Armor looked any different from normal Plate, in fact, most of the time you needed to use detect magic on things just to even know if they were magical.  Sure, a flaming sword is well, flaming, but you get the point.

I always thought my character being able to kick all sorts of ass was what showed him getting better.  There was nothing better than having a mage lay waste to a dozen goblins guarding a cave entrance when 2 levels earlier that fight would've taxed them.  Who gives a fuck what robe hes wearing.

Also - I realize you aren't necessarily referring to Dungeons and Dragons, but to me thats more or less the standard I'm working from, and my characters always looked like what I said they looked like.

[Ingmar]

Fighting a dragon in an evening gown is only slightly more ridiculous than this:
<murloc>

I'm pretty sure that's more ridiculous than an evening gown.

Games with appearance tabs have already shown that most people won't do that.  They want to look cool, not silly.

I just don't agree. It still at least looks like armor.

[Kageru]

I guess?  I mean sure, a Mithril chain mail is going to look nicer than a plain chain mail, but I never assumed a +2 Plate Armor looked any different from normal Plate, in fact, most of the time you needed to use detect magic on things just to even know if they were magical. 

Pretty sure even the D&D rules specified that the intrinsic value of the material determined the power of the enchantment it could carry. So +2 plate would always be exceptional materials and workmanship, which probably means it looks visually different.

It's a design decision. I tend to think SWTOR looks terrible in general (seriously, they look and move like plastic action figures). Games with gear progression should probably display that to encourage people to preen / covet. MMO's with no gear progression can focus on player style (so I guess APB and CoH would be here).

The WoW designers seem to have also solved the "clown suit" problem. The base gear is pretty uniform so it's looks decent in any combination. The higher end gear then gets exotic / thematic / shiny / has graphic effects.

[Sheepherder]

You're basically suggesting the same thing (client side skinning) but ignoring the reason why client-side only skinning is not prevalent already.

Erm.  There are online communities dedicated to it?  Most modern MMO's have features to selectively disable armour bits?  Curse.com had to take down a shitton of model edits at one point because Blizzard changed their ToU?

What an avatar looks like matters to the player both in what they see and what others see of them. If the only thing that mattered is what a person sees of themselves, your idea would have already been standard years ago. This is not some new concept.

Which is why model edits for single player games don't exist.  Because people accept the shoddy art in those games because at least people don't see them in it, right?