What went wrong.

[schild]

I don't care if it's the goddamn best story about WAR ever. He didn't heed the warning.

Also, don't edit your 2nd diary. Go get a livejournal account.

[khaine]

According to EA , nothing went wrong , it's rosy and "numbers are increasing"

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/star-wars-mmo-explained

"Frank Gibeau: No, actually our player numbers are increasing, so I don't know where they're getting that data. Our numbers are doing great. It's booming, both in Europe and North America. We haven't launched in Asia yet so that's going to be a big opportunity but it's one of the fastest-growing MMOs in the history of the industry and we didn't see our numbers cap out or slow down - they're continuing to crank."


It's "cranking" in the US and EU ? Really ? Damn I guess it was just my server and my guild that had the population drop off the cliff the past couple weeks ,

[Soln]

counter spin

[ghost]

Meh.  I find I enjoy coming on these boards and bitching about WAR more than I do playing it.  Playing WOTLK right now and it is okay........

WAR is deader than dead at this point.  Stick a fork in it.

[Slyfeind]

A dwarf in Warhammer is a dwarf in Warcraft. Orcs are Orcs. Goblins are Goblins. Humans are Humans. From attitude, to architecture, to names and language, to even their defining characteristics as races. Sure, Orcs in Warhammer may be sentient fungus but breeding barbarians in Warcraft, but do you think that made it through to the game, does that define the experience of being one over the other?

[/quote]

Huh. I really don't see this. Orcs in Warhammer seem more like Jarjars to me. It's always annoyed me. "Ugh me bashbash wit mef gooberfish MUYMUY!"

[Grim]

Hello F13.

[Bismallah]

Haha, those notes bring back some memories. I remember when they swore up and down there would be no stealth.

Edit: Oh and I want to know what Frank Gibeau is smoking, thats good shit. Then again with his salary he should be able to buy the finest weed... no matter how bad WAR is tanking

[Zzulo]

RvR and scenarios is very active in T4 where I play, but even so I don't believe them when they say they haven't lost any significant number of people

[Bismallah]

Well it's spin for sure, I am just surprised he even answered a question like that knowing the community would jump all over it. The real kick in the teeth is the mention of Europe. With GOA fraudulently re-upping subscribers. Speaking of which did Magnus answer that WHA thread yet?

[Trippy]

Although in dramatic departure from what i've experienced in Warhammer, I would have never expected greenskins to fight alongside Chaos or Dark Elves.

That is, actually, the way they do it in the tabletop game (and in the card game for that matter). E.g. in the yearly global summer campaigns they'll pit two sides against each other and the Greenskins end up on the Chaos/Dark Elves/Skaven/etc. side.

[Arthur_Parker]

First, sweety pie, I'm not even sure you're posting in reply to me any longer.

Here, I'll quote you.

Which is why I think there was a lot of common sense flooding into Microsoft when they cancelled the Halo MMO. Warhammer was in an even worse position: It's IP was essentially copied and made less "dark" by Blizzard way back in the day. They don't even have the advantage of feeling like they're in drastically different universes.

Expand on that.  Explain how WAR is in an even worse position than Halo, because Blizzard ripped off Games Workshop, see if you can do it without talking about magic loving Elves or saying, "trust me guys, honest, Blizzard stole a lot from Warhammer".

The fact that Blizzard ripped off GW isn't some kind of revelation.  WAR is a fantasy mmorpg, you believe the Halo IP would have made a better fantasy mmorpg?  What would have been a better IP for a fantasy RVR game from Mythic?  Are you saying DAoC2 would have attracted more people to the game than Warhammer?  Are you saying they should have stuck to the PVE only Imperator for their next RVR game and you think they should have abandoned fantasy altogether?

Don't back away from your point, if the Warhammer IP was too close to Warcraft, then name a better fantasy IP. Following your logic, Blizzard shouldn't make Starcraft online if 40K online is released first, because "lol, shit, who wants to play another space marine"?

WAR isn't a cluster fuck because of the IP, it's purely down to implementation from Mythic, otherwise you would be able to link some threads talking about how much better the Warcraft "lore" is to Warhammer. Or you could maybe link some WAR "I quit" threads going "Man, I'm so sick of playing a Dwarf I did all that in WoW".  Just don't forget to name me a better Fantasy IP that Mythic could have used instead to bypass the whole "magic elf" thing.

[Zzulo]

it all went wrong when they during the beta still only had scenarios and BO's as the focal point of RvR

actual beta testers managed to change Mythics mind and made them put in keep warfare and the RvR system we see today, and it's still not enough. But if Mythic would have been left alone to develop their original plan, we would have had a game with only scenarios to play

The entire concept behind WAR was flawed already in the conceptual phase, and you can notice that the keeps were added as an emergency content patch, since they are not even half as intricate or interesting as the keep warfare from DAoC

[Riggswolfe]

Arthur, I think you two are having two different discussions. Your discussing the mechanics, he's basically saying that since the IP was so close to Warcraft (because Blizzard stole alot of it) that this hasn't helped as much as it should.

[Arthur_Parker]

So why am I asking him to name a better IP then?  If there's something better because it's more different name it.

[khaine]

Arthur, I think you two are having two different discussions. Your discussing the mechanics, he's basically saying that since the IP was so close to Warcraft (because Blizzard stole alot of it) that this hasn't helped as much as it should.

That could be true , but one thing I think is true is ,without the Warhammer IP it would be in much worse shape right now

Leaving aside arguments of how the IP may have limited them in development , if you had the exact same game right now down to mechanics/classes/world setup , but instead it was "generic fantasy name" and not Warhammer at all , I think you would see even less players to begin with and many more shrugging it off even faster

I know there are some diehard Warhammer IP fans who hated it from the get go because they can't tolerate anything deviating from their original idea of a Warhammer world , but likely are more like myself , who liked the IP and found it cool to run around in a "Warhammer" world initially with Witch hunters and Altdorf and seeing the Druchii(Dark Elves) and so on

If this was without the Warhammer name at all , I think it would be getting shredded as a complete joke of a game by even more

[Arthur_Parker]

Exactly.  If we made a plus and minus list for WAR with empty pq's, boring pve, level grind, etc all in the minus column.  Anyone who doesn't put the Warhammer IP in the positive column is a complete muppet.  If anything Chaos, Greenskins and Dark Elves were too attractive and helped unbalance the sides.  But ultimately Mythic picked the sides and went with two instead of three, also, Skaven.

[dd0029]

we would have had a game with only scenarios to play

That might have worked better.  Frankly, scenarios are one of the things that actually work in this game and were fun before we got stuck on the Nordenwatch, Mourkain, Tor, SP string.  The technical backend for the scenarios are about the only thing that worked right from the beginning.  They added the que all, but that was a convenience factor.  The first two weeks when I was getting to play all three of the T1 scenarios were really fun.  From the couple of snippets I have seen from people doing the city stuff, it seems like they are kind of scenario like anyway?  Someone mentioned having to Queue for the city raid?

My point is, maybe scenarios were their plan?  The funneling issues would have gone away in T4 maybe if they had planned to have sequentially available scenarios?  IE, only the initial contested zone scenario is available, then as that is locked down, that scenario closes and the next contested zone scenario opens up, all the way to the city.  The poorly designed lakes would have made more sense if they had never really intended them to be the focus for pvp.  Because scenarios do address some of the RvR issues.  They prevent the zerg, they lessen the impact of population imbalances as points are only accrued when games happen so the big side can't steamroll the little side, they do away with late night undefended keep attacks and they highlight the small group play that seems to have been some of the strength of DAoC.  If the RvR was all scenario based, you would not have had the problem have having to move from the PvE area to the RvR area because the scenario que picks you up and puts you right back.

Other problems arise, but I believe solely scenario might have been a workable starting point.  Not sure how this translates backward into T1-3, but maybe they expected them to be transitory and instructional.

[Bismallah]

They should make keep takes PQs... I saw it mentioned on the VN and possibly here? (assuming Order is defending)

Stage 1:

Order = kill 100 destruction players
Destruction = kill 100 order players

Stage 2:

Order = kill attacking destruction NPC champions +players
Destruction = kill defending order npc champions +players

Stage 3:

Order = kill named lord/hero attacking destruction mob +players
Destruction = kill named lord/hero to claim keep +players

At the end everyone rolls for loot based off contributions, resets. I thought it was a good idea. Instead of Influence you get renown for completing the phases...

[schild]

I think we're past the point of making suggestions for how to fix or add to the game. The corpse is still warm, but frankly Mythic has shown they have no interest in listening, changing, or fixing based on customer feedback and are happy holed up in their ivory bunker throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks. My suggestion? Go find another game to play, it's not like it's March, there's a shitload of new games every week this time of the year.

[ghost]

Really the only thing that Warcraft blatantly stole from Warhammer was the visual look of the Orcs and their buildings.  Everything else you can find in other fantasy books/words. 

[dd0029]

On the finding a new game, I did.  Lich King really is a very large step forward for WoW.  They really appear to have learned a lot about what players enjoy.  The quests are better.  The environment is stunning.  The music is really good.  The story continues and meshes throughout very well.  Its just a better.  Particularly, playing a Death Knight highlights the strides Blizzard has made.  You can go right to Outland after the introduction, but if choose to play in the old world for the first two levels you can really see the difference, how the old world was comparatively poorly thought out.  In Outland, you can see the refinement, but still the miss steps and then move into Northrend and see the miss steps corrected.

[Riggswolfe]

Exactly.  If we made a plus and minus list for WAR with empty pq's, boring pve, level grind, etc all in the minus column.  Anyone who doesn't put the Warhammer IP in the positive column is a complete muppet.  If anything Chaos, Greenskins and Dark Elves were too attractive and helped unbalance the sides.  But ultimately Mythic picked the sides and went with two instead of three, also, Skaven.

Don't get me wrong. You guys are right. The Warhammer IP helps alot. If you're a Warhammer fan. If you're not, it adds nothing and looks like a WOW clone. (because alot of people don't know the history of warhammer and warcraft.)

[Zzulo]

Really the only thing that Warcraft blatantly stole from Warhammer was the visual look of the Orcs and their buildings.  Everything else you can find in other fantasy books/words. 

look, they have flat out said that the original warcraft game was supposed to be a warhammer game but things got in the way and it became its own IP. Of course they stole almost all their design from Warhammer

[Lakov_Sanite]

Really the only thing that Warcraft blatantly stole from Warhammer was the visual look of the Orcs and their buildings.  Everything else you can find in other fantasy books/words. 

look, they have flat out said that the original warcraft game was supposed to be a warhammer game but things got in the way and it became its own IP. Of course they stole almost all their design from Warhammer

At this point though it's like saying both lasagna and ramen are essentially the same since their both, you know, noodles.  warcraft may have started as a derivitive from warhammer but where they stand now is as two vastly different fantasy settings.  About the only thing they even have in common anymore is they have orcs and the humans are kind of douchebags. 

[Zzulo]

and steamtanks 

[Arthur_Parker]

Exactly.  If we made a plus and minus list for WAR with empty pq's, boring pve, level grind, etc all in the minus column.  Anyone who doesn't put the Warhammer IP in the positive column is a complete muppet.  If anything Chaos, Greenskins and Dark Elves were too attractive and helped unbalance the sides.  But ultimately Mythic picked the sides and went with two instead of three, also, Skaven.

Don't get me wrong. You guys are right. The Warhammer IP helps alot. If you're a Warhammer fan. If you're not, it adds nothing and looks like a WOW clone. (because alot of people don't know the history of warhammer and warcraft.)

Even if that's 100% true, even if all of it is true, Chaos etc all added exactly nothing.  Saying Mythic made a mistake picking in picking the Warhammer IP is totally pointless if you can't say well they should have picked "blank" instead.  Fill in the blank and we'll talk about it.

It's like someone saying, "WAR was worse off because the default controls have been setup to use a mouse. Been there, done that, WoW uses a mouse".  If you can't reply when somebody says "what would you use instead?", then what's the point in saying it?

[BitWarrior]

Going back a bit, I actually read hammurabi's post and found it rather interesting. I thought some quotes which people might have liked to pick up on were:

...MBJ is starting to ban testers if they trash the game concepts too much

Each department's devs are supposed to look at their team's feedback and categorize it themselves.

As a programmer, I admit I typically start with the easiest to fix first, then work my way up to the harder stuff. If it's true the dev's were responsible for their own categorization of priorities, I'd be willing to bet the top of the list were always quick(ish) fixes, and perhaps that's why we didn't see sweeping changes throughout the beta process which would have produced a better game. It just might be that what WAR represents is the first, and only, iteration of ideas with no revisions.

[ghost]

Really the only thing that Warcraft blatantly stole from Warhammer was the visual look of the Orcs and their buildings.  Everything else you can find in other fantasy books/words. 

look, they have flat out said that the original warcraft game was supposed to be a warhammer game but things got in the way and it became its own IP. Of course they stole almost all their design from Warhammer

Yeah, I get it, but the only thing that is blatant plagiarism is the orcs.  You could argue maybe the flying/mechanical stuff of the dwarves too, but that can be seen in many other fantasy type worlds. 

[tolakram]

I think we're past the point of making suggestions for how to fix or add to the game. The corpse is still warm, but frankly Mythic has shown they have no interest in listening, changing, or fixing based on customer feedback

I can't agree with that, if you look around you'll find evidence they are listening.  They're afraid to make big changes and that's hurting them big time, but I still have hope.

I may have a different opinion after 1.1, but I've always felt like 1.1 is going to contain the big RvR changes many of us want but take a while to code.

[BitWarrior]

Yeah, I get it, but the only thing that is blatant plagiarism is the orcs.  You could argue maybe the flying/mechanical stuff of the dwarves too, but that can be seen in many other fantasy type worlds. 

You'll have to excuse me for asking for a source. What worlds are you thinking? There's a fair chance what you might be thinking of actually post-dates Warhammer.

[ghost]

Yeah, I get it, but the only thing that is blatant plagiarism is the orcs.  You could argue maybe the flying/mechanical stuff of the dwarves too, but that can be seen in many other fantasy type worlds. 

You'll have to excuse me for asking for a source. What worlds are you thinking? There's a fair chance what you might be thinking of actually post-dates Warhammer.

I seem to remember some D and D stuff that tended that way for the mechanical tendencies, but, again, I said you could argue it. 

The orcs were plagiarized.

Edit:  And simply because something post-dates Warhammer doesn't mean it was plagiarized necessarily.  For instance-  dark elves in WOW are completely different than in WAR, although they share the same name.  Arcanum is a good example for the dwarves.  Not plagiarized, but a similar idea.  Plagiarism means stolen word for word, or exactly copied, as the WOW guys did with their orcs.

[Montague]

"Frank Gibeau: No, actually our player numbers are increasing, so I don't know where they're getting that data. Our numbers are doing great. It's booming, both in Europe and North America. We haven't launched in Asia yet so that's going to be a big opportunity but it's one of the fastest-growing MMOs in the history of the industry and we didn't see our numbers cap out or slow down - they're continuing to crank."

[Grim]

Hello F13.

[Grim]

Hello F13.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Yeah, I get it, but the only thing that is blatant plagiarism is the orcs.  You could argue maybe the flying/mechanical stuff of the dwarves too, but that can be seen in many other fantasy type worlds. 

You'll have to excuse me for asking for a source. What worlds are you thinking? There's a fair chance what you might be thinking of actually post-dates Warhammer.

I seem to remember some D and D stuff that tended that way for the mechanical tendencies, but, again, I said you could argue it. 

The orcs were plagiarized.

Edit:  And simply because something post-dates Warhammer doesn't mean it was plagiarized necessarily.  For instance-  dark elves in WOW are completely different than in WAR, although they share the same name.  Arcanum is a good example for the dwarves.  Not plagiarized, but a similar idea.  Plagiarism means stolen word for word, or exactly copied, as the WOW guys did with their orcs.

I agree wholeheartedly but that was warcraft. If you take warhammer orcs and world of warcraft orcs, you will see two completely different races.  I understand that the warcraft orcs were warhammer orcs renamed but blizz has since retcon'd a lot or just flat out changed them to be very different.

Warhammer orcs as they are now: Bloodthirsty, savage, battle-hungry, dumb as bricks fungus people.
Warcraft orcs as they are now:Ruthless, barbaric, clan-style warriors with average intelligence.

While at one time the two ip's may have been copied, as it stands right now they are as seperate as any two fantasy ip that share the same bacis racial structures of a tolkien-esque world.  I'm not saying either is superior as I myself love the warhammer universe but warhammer cannot blame wow's success on their ip nor can they blame their own failure on it.

Different worlds, same game mechanics.