Zone Control Issues - Other Side Boycotts

[waylander]

Order, at least on our server, isn't seeing a lot of people play Engineer, Archmage, White Lions, or Shadow Warriors. People are rolling IB's, Runepriests, Swordmasters, Warrior Priests, and Witch Hunters. Those three classes aren't popular for whatever reason.

PVP consists of warbands with 2 marauders and 2 maguses per group, and here's what happens.

Magnus 1 uses rift summon, which even nerfed, pulls 9 people. Then Maurauder (i believe, if I remember from when I played) uses AOE knockdown, cone damage attk, and sorcs AOE nuke. Whoever lives is then pulled to the next magus, rinse repeat. A full warband can be wiped out in under 2 minutes just getting yanked from one magnus to the other.

This is fairly standard PVP right now for the Destructo side, and unless Order has more of an incentive to level up engineers, archmages, white lions, and shadow warriors then yeah its pretty unbalanced. I won't say every server has this problem, but its certainly one our server has.

[UnSub]

Shadow Warriors are boring to level. They can do fairly well in PvP, but in PvE it is a matter of repeating ranged attack -> ranged DPS -> maybe a snare, maybe a moving ranged attack -> melee DPS -> melee strike until death over and over again.

And god help you if you run into more than two enemies. Shadow Warriors are meant to be a class that is benefited by moving, but in PvE it is incredibly easy to move into aggro range of another mob by accident. With a lack of AoE melee attacks (at least for the first half of progression - later on you get more AoE ranged which would benefit PvP but not PvE again) and only one snare and one AoE root, it's not hard to die very quickly with a Shadow Warrior in PvE when facing more than one opponent.

Also, stance dancing can be complex and it can be easy to feel that Shadow Warriors don't have enough spike damage at range to take down a target and are then easy pickings in melee range.

[rk47]

well that's all down to people's preferences and class balance had nothing to do with that. It's more a 'population issue' in regards to how RvR plays out end game. I agree though, that magnet pull shit needs to be lessened. It's just too critical in massive RvR. 9 isolated targets for everyone to melee lemonparty focusfire orgy is too much.

[Lantyssa]

Swordmaster vs Black Orc : Orc advantage here being able to heal in combat but Swordmasters are hard to kill too. Not very clear winner.

Swordmaster: Debuffs Black Orc's Spirit resist to 0.  Uses Ensorcelled Blow (tactic which adds DoT a plus), Gust/Parry (forget the ability), Dragon Talon/Wrath of Hoeth.  Swordmaster wins by using almost all spirit damage which the opponent has no mitigation to after being debuffed by Wrath of Hoeth.

In PvP I use a shield, the Ensorcelled tactic, and Rugged tactic which bumps up my Toughness.  I will win against any other tank one-on-one.

[squirrel]

Swordmaster vs Black Orc : Orc advantage here being able to heal in combat but Swordmasters are hard to kill too. Not very clear winner.

Swordmaster: Debuffs Black Orc's Spirit resist to 0.  Uses Ensorcelled Blow (tactic which adds DoT a plus), Gust/Parry (forget the ability), Dragon Talon/Wrath of Hoeth.  Swordmaster wins by using almost all spirit damage which the opponent has no mitigation to after being debuffed by Wrath of Hoeth.

In PvP I use a shield, the Ensorcelled tactic, and Rugged tactic which bumps up my Toughness.  I will win against any other tank one-on-one.

That's my build at 25 as well. Ensorcelled Agony and +96 toughness. All mastery in Hoeth. Cuts up other melee pretty good.

[rk47]

Swordmaster vs Black Orc : Orc advantage here being able to heal in combat but Swordmasters are hard to kill too. Not very clear winner.

Swordmaster: Debuffs Black Orc's Spirit resist to 0.  Uses Ensorcelled Blow (tactic which adds DoT a plus), Gust/Parry (forget the ability), Dragon Talon/Wrath of Hoeth.  Swordmaster wins by using almost all spirit damage which the opponent has no mitigation to after being debuffed by Wrath of Hoeth.

In PvP I use a shield, the Ensorcelled tactic, and Rugged tactic which bumps up my Toughness.  I will win against any other tank one-on-one.

That's my build at 25 as well. Ensorcelled Agony and +96 toughness. All mastery in Hoeth. Cuts up other melee pretty good.

uh. Wot Armor kthx, and i'm not having a 1 v 1 comparison here. in terms of grp support and front line tanker, Black Orc is supreme. Have you seen their mastery skill tree? So much better than Elves selfish buffs. And the orc's in combat heal hits around 1k at end game. Compared to our Phantom Blade & LolProtectionfoHoeth, that is really amazing.

[Righ]

So what you're saying is Destro fine, nerf Order... except for Swordmasters, who are gimp. And you're now playing Destro, but used to play a Swordmaster? Seems pretty suspect. I'd agree with the BW vs. Sorc at least in scenario play. You're grossly understating the WE vs. WH however. WE own at melee, and that's their role. Comparing Marauder vs. Shadow Warrior isn't valid - SW are not a melee class, that would be White Lion. Substituting solid non-positional burst melee for a ranged snare and having a broken pathing pet makes Order's melee very weak. Shadow Warrior should be compared against Squig Herder, which they've got the win on. Also missing out the healing classes helps your case - because Destro have the better RvR healers overall. Only in Runepriest vs. Zealot does Order win out, and that's in an organised group. Solo or in a disorganised rabble, Zealot plays better.

The solid wins for Order are Bright Wizards, Shadow Warrior and Ironbreakers (assuming we compare them against the non-equivalent Chosen). And Runepriests in a coherent group. Solid wins for Destro are Shaman, DoKs, WE, Marauder and Black Orc. Magus vs. Engineer is pretty much a tie.

No matter how they play out in either solo or group play, the fact of the matter is that Order are going to do best in any class balance changes. Because fewer people are playing Order.

[rk47]

So what you're saying is Destro fine, nerf Order... except for Swordmasters, who are gimp. And you're now playing Destro, but used to play a Swordmaster? Seems pretty suspect.

Swordmasters aren't totally gimp I never even implied that, but their mastery needs reworking, at the current state their utility tree is just too good compared to their 2 hand dps tree. Black orcs are more or less able to spec on each tree and have a decent role played out for them. It's a no brainer, Swordmaster is not a finished class at the moment.

[Lantyssa]

How often is the Black Orc heal up?  I have 4000 health at 24, so a 1000 point heal at endgame doesn't seem like a whole lot unless it's on a five second cooldown, especially when none of the damage I am doing is being mitigated.  Against someone without Spirit damage, yeah, Black Orcs are tough.  I don't like fighting them on other characters.  Or love them when I'm on my Disciple.

[Righ]

Da Toughest procs once every ten seconds provided you keep hitting things. Every time it procs you get a boost to your health and a heal for an equal amount. If you were to spec your Black Orc with full points in Path Of Da Toughest (which most don't) the benefit would be greater.

[FellintoOblivion]

So what you're saying is Destro fine, nerf Order... except for Swordmasters, who are gimp. And you're now playing Destro, but used to play a Swordmaster? Seems pretty suspect.

 It's a no brainer, Swordmaster is not a finished class at the moment.

Unfortunately I think Mythic might disagree with you.

[rk47]

So what you're saying is Destro fine, nerf Order... except for Swordmasters, who are gimp. And you're now playing Destro, but used to play a Swordmaster? Seems pretty suspect.

 It's a no brainer, Swordmaster is not a finished class at the moment.

Unfortunately I think Mythic might disagree with you.

Unfortunately, Mark Jacobs said 1.1 will change classes.

[UnSub]

So what you're saying is Destro fine, nerf Order... except for Swordmasters, who are gimp. And you're now playing Destro, but used to play a Swordmaster? Seems pretty suspect.

 It's a no brainer, Swordmaster is not a finished class at the moment.

Unfortunately I think Mythic might disagree with you.

Unfortunately, Mark Jacobs said 1.1 will change classes.

I think he used the words "tough love". You can't hurt the things you love, right?

[GoodIdea]

On Azazel, Order has held every single BO and all keeps for more than 2 weeks now... and we haven't locked a single zone. Well, we did lock Black Craig but we lost the zone somehow (we lost the zone while holding all BOs and keeps, lol).

Very frustrating to say the least. And destruction won't fight us open rvr, the barely fight us in scenarios. At many times we're playing a pvp game with no pvp. The LEAST Mythic could allow us to do is take some attempts at some fortresses while we're waiting for Destruction to participate. Destruction have even told us that there is no point in participating, because nothing is on the line (too difficult to take zones, fort lords buffed too much) and that they are going to grind PVE until it changes.

So does anyone know how to take a zone? From what I understand you need victory points from PQs, objectives, and scenarios to do it, but you need all three. So is the best way to do it, grind PQs in the zone for 1 hour while queueing up for scenarios in that zone (that destro won't play) while holding all of the objectives in the area? Does this board have an expert on zone flips?

[Sjofn]

Order, at least on our server, isn't seeing a lot of people play Engineer, Archmage, White Lions, or Shadow Warriors. People are rolling IB's, Runepriests, Swordmasters, Warrior Priests, and Witch Hunters. Those three classes aren't popular for whatever reason.

PVP consists of warbands with 2 marauders and 2 maguses per group, and here's what happens.

Magnus 1 uses rift summon, which even nerfed, pulls 9 people. Then Maurauder (i believe, if I remember from when I played) uses AOE knockdown, cone damage attk, and sorcs AOE nuke. Whoever lives is then pulled to the next magus, rinse repeat. A full warband can be wiped out in under 2 minutes just getting yanked from one magnus to the other.

This is fairly standard PVP right now for the Destructo side, and unless Order has more of an incentive to level up engineers, archmages, white lions, and shadow warriors then yeah its pretty unbalanced. I won't say every server has this problem, but its certainly one our server has.

The main reason you're probably not seeing many white lions is the lion is pants-on-head retarded. They aren't completely unplayable like they were during the beta as a result, but I can definitely understand people going "fuck this" by level 5 or so and rolling a class that they don't have to depend on a completely idiotic AI so much.

[tolakram]

I have to think that Mythic will see the lack of oRvR at end game and they will have to fix it.   The only thing that might be delaying them now is the fact that not many people have made it to end game.

I also think that if a lot of people are rerolling alts and not fighting through t3 and t4 then Mythic will have to do something to fix it.

I have to think they won't just watch as their game implodes, the only question is how long will they wait.

Whew, too much thinking ...

[Nebu]

Change will continue to come slowly as long as people continue to subscribe to shitty games.  You really want change?  Cancel your sub until you see change.  The only way to get dev houses to listen is by voting with your wallet. 

[UnSub]

Change will continue to come slowly as long as people continue to subscribe to shitty games.  You really want change?  Cancel your sub until you see change.  The only way to get dev houses to listen is by voting with your wallet. 

... and go play something that isn't WoW. Go off and play an indy, experience something different. It is ridiculous that players go, "We want something other than WoW!" when they return to it time and time and time again.