Global Thematic PvP changes discussion thread

[Triforcer]

What I am hearing on other boards (and stuff that isn't "well at T4 X sucks" that I can see from personal experience):

1)  The four second-class RDPS need a buff (Magus, Engineer, Squig Herder, and Shadow Warrior).  BWs need a large nerf, and sorcs need a small nerf (read many threads that do the math on Sorc v. BW dps, the difference is large according to the number-crunchers).  Sure, Magus and Engineer can pull you into the lava at Tor Anroc, but the much vaunted "utility" of those classes doesn't amount to much more than what BWs and Sorcs get.  Squig Herder is especially hurting (double whammy of being a non Sorc-BW RDPS class thats also dependent on Captain Retarded and the Handicap Gang, aka the four squigs). 

2)  Knockbacks.  No, this isn't about TA.  TA will be a distant and unpleasant memory in a month.  Its about point #3 below (MDPS problems).  We need some combination of (A)  reduced distance (probably only the ironbreaker), (B)  knockback resistances/cooldown abilities, and (3)  outright removal from classes that really shouldn't have them (tanks).

3)  MDPS- gossip is that at T4, they seriously suffer since everyone has an AE knockback and an AE root.  Witch Elves and Witch Hunters need SOME survivability.  The line between gimped and WoW rogue CoS overpowered god is a thin one, but something has to be done.  Again, less AE roots (or diminishing returns on roots) would go a long way toward solving this.

4)  And, if #1 didn't make it obvious, nerf Bright Wizards.  Hard.  Like, 50% damage reduction across the board in immolation, maybe even 60% or 70%.   Tone down withering snare and playing with fire (which actually procs on DOT ticks). 

Thoughts?  These seem to be the global concerns I am seeing.   

[Righ]

Those aren't global concerns. But its nice to know what the folks you're playing with think.

[Zetor]

Mhm, let me just say that at tier4 concerns are... different. (I'm not at tier4 yet, just barely tier3, but I was in the t4 part of closed beta)

There are plenty of other disadvantages from the other side of the fence, including discrepancies in mortal strike-type effects (destruction have better ones, more of them, and easier to apply / harder to dispel in general, one is an AOE attached to a tank even), AOE knockdowns (the only order-side KD is the engineer turret self destruct, while destruction has an aoe kd on the marauder, and I think at least one more... can't be arsed to look it up now though), runepriest vs zealot survivability (both of them get an AOE knockback, but zealots also get a pulsing AOE knockback on a shorter cooldown), etc. Pet AI (or lack thereof) arguably hurts white lions just as much or even more, since a lot of their crucial abilities (ie snare) are tied to the pet.

The grass is always greener on the other side I guess. :p Though I agree in that roots need diminishing returns.


-- Z.

[schild]

wow those are off the mark

destroy complaints, right?

The problems with tier 4 are far, far different.

[schild]

How about this?

1. Less, better scenarios. Corral people together, stop tearing them apart.
2. Less EXP grind, it's probably just about CoH bad in tier 3 and 4.
3. Better experience rewards.
4. Better quest rewards.
5. Better loot rewards, everyone involved in taking a keep should get something, particularly since Renown Gear is total fucking shit.
6. Better reasons to hold a keep. Maybe access to a special store that opens 12 hours after grabbing the keep or something. So defense is paramount.
7. Bring Witch Hunters in line with Witch Elves. Either that or teach Witch Hunters how to play. I'm not saying nerf witch elves, I'm saying buff witch hunters regular attacks.
8. Buff the shit out of squig herders. Stupid fucking useless class. They have a sign over their head that reads FREE EXP HERE. JUST SHOOT THE GREEN TURD.
9. Less walking, more killing.
10. Finally, and most importantly, reward people for finishing battle objectives (like taking the bauble from one place to the capture zone) in scenarios.

Oh, and a bonus one:
11. Rework scenario EXP.

[Triforcer]

Good points.  I don't want to turn this into a BW whine thread, but do people on Order side believe they are ok?  I won't respond to any comments because I don't want that fight here, but I am curious how seriously Order people take the BW crying. 

[schild]

They need a healer. Any BW moaning you hear is the same as Order moaning about sorcs. Without a healer, they're both poopy. Period. They don't need buffs or nerfs, but they do both need one or two of their abilities either moved to tier 3 or made to scale differently.

[rk47]

My BW doesn't even bother with fireballing anything once I've got detonate & flame breath. A 3 sec cast is not worth using especially when you have so many instant attacks that lead to a heck load of dmg and aoe with detonate. It's reaching to a point where I don't even look at my targets anymore, tab, immolate, tab, immolate, tab..oh healer, boiling blood. Hmmm nice clump detonate. OK, firebreath for instant aoe dot. Ok Repeat again, who wants immolate. If I wanted direct damage I always have searing, meltdown and pyrokinetic blast. all 1-2 sec cast time that crits 25% of the time.

But schild is right with healers. With healing and 100% combustion and if destro ignore me, they're toast.

Order currently has a slightly better class make up, just that White Lion needs a big fix or else majority are quitting that class for good.
Swordmasters needs a slight tweak on their masteries, at the moment their 2hander mastery does not give them more dmg compared to their other 2 options.
Ironbreakers are really really good tanks, people just need to play them better and Destro would have a hard time matching these mini panzers.
Shadow-warriors need to stop thinking of mass-spread dmg and focus on what they do best: Sniping.

[Zetor]

Yeah, I play an IB and I don't deny that IBs are pretty darn powerful atm. They can do hideous amounts of damage if specced for it, do crazy cc (if there's one thing I'd nerf, it's lowering the knockback on powered etchings... srsly, a 10 sec cooldown secondary aoe kb on par with the primary KBs of other tanks?), and do very well as damage soakers if they want to. It'd be even crazier if you could switch between 1h+shield/2h in combat, but that's not possible atm.

IMO pet mechanics are borked, and engineers/magi are "utility" classes (gawd, I hate that designation in a MMOG... to steal a quote from the wow pally forums, everyone wants to be the porn star, nobody wants to be the fluffer. ) and pretty pathetic in smaller scale engagements.


-- Z.

[Register]

How about this?

1. Less, better scenarios. Corral people together, stop tearing them apart.
2. Less EXP grind, it's probably just about CoH bad in tier 3 and 4.
3. Better experience rewards.
4. Better quest rewards.
5. Better loot rewards, everyone involved in taking a keep should get something, particularly since Renown Gear is total fucking shit.
6. Better reasons to hold a keep. Maybe access to a special store that opens 12 hours after grabbing the keep or something. So defense is paramount.
7. Bring Witch Hunters in line with Witch Elves. Either that or teach Witch Hunters how to play. I'm not saying nerf witch elves, I'm saying buff witch hunters regular attacks.
8. Buff the shit out of squig herders. Stupid fucking useless class. They have a sign over their head that reads FREE EXP HERE. JUST SHOOT THE GREEN TURD.
9. Less walking, more killing.
10. Finally, and most importantly, reward people for finishing battle objectives (like taking the bauble from one place to the capture zone) in scenarios.

Oh, and a bonus one:
11. Rework scenario EXP.

To me there's two grind that's hurting my Warhammer experience badly - one is the XP grind, it's really bad and gets worse with every level you gain.

The other is the item grind - renown gear is substandard, with no crowds you grind influence on mobs in PQ areas... with each tier/chapter requiring more and more influence on a soul-sapping grind killing the same mobs over and over and over and over again.

[Fordel]

My Arm Chair designing says: Either both sides get a healing debuff Aura, or Neither side gets a healing debuff Aura.


Seriously, what is that bullshit?

[Tannhauser]

Buff WH? Are you kidding?  Your WH need to Learn2play and keep good gear on.

If you buff anyone buff SW.  I face them in RvR all the time and they are the SH of Order.  Not ONCE has a SW pulled his blade on me when I got to melee, they run like hell.  Then they die face down in the dirt like chumps. 

You are right Renown Gear sucks, I RvR for fun now and PvE for my phat looties. 

You are right about quest and xp rewards.  Need to boots the +stats on items.

[schild]

If you GOT to an SW, they're doing it wrong. Don't blame the designers, blame the SW.

[Phunked]

IBs are incredibly OP.

If you don't realize that, you're playing the wrong game or with terrible people.

Over one TA I smacked 17 people into lava. The knockback is the easiest mechanic in the world to exploit and has the most lenient activation requirements of any of the tank ones (30 grudge >>> AP).

Combine that with MASSIVE and I mean massive single target DPS output and you get a rogue in plate with AoE knockback when stuff gets nasty. I'm amazed that Stubborn as Stone hasn't been nerfed into the ground. 50% melee haste whenever you get hit with a spell 20 sec duration, 5 grudge refresh for a corporeal resistance buff? This alone, combined with a veng spec and dropping stone break (-armor) allows me to eat a caster in seconds, assuming I don't play golf with them. This is while providing a giant willpower armor and toughness buff to my healer as well as a 10% crit buff.

I don't care that WHs are terrible, IBs are twice the MDPS class they are atm. And if you ever need to, drop combat and put on a shield.

[Arrrgh]

At 100 combustion crit chance is +50% and crit damage is +100%. The BW you're complaining about are the ones running aound at 100 combustion constantly.

Without a pocket healer a BW cannot run around at 100 combustion constantly. A BW with no heals does far less damage.

In T3 it usually takes a couple of healers constantly tossing HOTs on my BW to keep him in full 100 combustion BBQ mode for long periods.

And DOT ticks can crit.

[kildorn]

BWs and Sorcs both need to be toned down, and have their backlash effects reduced. BWs deal too much single target damage. Sorcs deal too much AE damage. Both deal far more damage than their backlash mechanics really make up for. Anyways, a BW will kill you no matter what. A Sorc will kill a group no matter what in some of the scenarios. Seriously, their AE crits harder than my single target burst while using unshakable focus.

Knockbacks DO need a defense mechanism. It's a fine thing to have in game, but it's the only ability you can't build a resist to.

Pet AI needs a complete rework, or the pet class themselves needs to not suffer such a huge skill penalty for assumed pet damage.

Shadow Warriors need no buff in any way, beyond some mastery skill fixes (seriously, what the shit is Fell the Weak? And why is Glass Arrow in Scout when Scout is the only spec that doesn't adore it? Why is Barrage just Lileath's Arrow with a cooldown?)

[murdoc]

Why shouldn't tanks get knockback?

All I ask is for diminishing returns on roots, snares and knockbacks. It's frustrating to get rooted by a BW, pop my ability to get out of root and am promptly rooted again by the next BW since there's usually 3 or 4 around.

I do love the OMG NERF THE OTHERSIDE that dominates these conversations. To me that says things are pretty good which BOTH sides whine and complain and bitch and point fingers that the OTHER side has the OP class. Not saying that it's a perfect balance or anything, but I do find it funny. Only thing that everyone can agree on is that Squig Herders need some lovin's.

PS. Nerf Ironbreakers!

[rattran]

IB are OP. I think people on both sides agrees on that. BO seem better now that exploiting the 10sec proc doesn't net them much free healing in t3. Chosen are fine, except when you get stacking auras. Swordmasters seem to be great pve tanks, but I don't see many in pvp (except the Bat Country ones)

Sorcs/BW need to be toned down, but not nerfed by 50%. They don't seem nearly as OP in t4.

Squig Herders are teh suck, though I have seen some people do okay with them. Seems much like Magus/Engy to be very situational. The SH barrage can be a nasty surprise when you're charging a Shaman.Magus/Engys need a buff in T2/T3, but seem to do okay overall. WL would be fine if it wasn't for the hideous (and worse each patch) pet problems. Without a pet, they're a totally weak Marauder, with no cc.

Zealots/AM/RP/Shaman seem to do great when they play as healers, and are fucked when they play ranged dps.

SW/WH/WE/Maraud all seem pretty good, assuming non-stupid players. I still see many SW charging into battle, or shooting tanks from short range while healers are up.

WP/DoK go from OP in Tier1, to decent in Tier2/3. Tough to play fully effectively, but good ones do great.

[rk47]

Meh I tried to introduce my friend to the game and his destro toon kept meeting 6 BW teams in Nordenwatch, it's just not gonna work out for his chosen or black orc. And he's pretty stoked on playing melee too. But it's too bad really. MMOs never really favor close range due to latency. i told him if he can tolerate people warping around and dying first in battle, stick with melee. If not, roll ranged dps. If not...quit. There's just not much point in forcing yourself to play a melee class in Warhammer if you can't take the warping and crazy ranged dmg. The scenarios will never put a cap to certain classes make up. There's no amount of healing that can counteract a 100% combustion 6x Immolation dot ticks at Tier 1.

[squirrel]

Talking about buffing/nerfing classes at this stage of the game when <25% of people are active in Tier 4 and NOONE is RR80 is retarded. Like White Lion pet retarded. Some tweaks could be made but crying for a 50% reduction to a DPS classes damage when you're likely not even at the endgame is just whiny bullshit. Let's give it a while.

Nerf rock, papers fine.

-- love scissors

[Nebu]

Tell him to be patient.  DAoC eventually became very balanced between casters and melee... granted it did take 6 years.   I have some hope that they have learned from the past, but given the shitty engine design, all of the lag exploiters may just chase away anyone that really enjoys melee.

[MuffinMan]

I giggle every time I see engineers called RDPS. Where do I find this mythical class?

[schild]

It's true, they're more like aggro attractors and particle effect generators.

[Nija]

They lay down phat beats in town, that's for sure.

(drop turret then destroy it in town and the sound continues for about 5 minutes.)

[Morfiend]

WP/DoK go from OP in Tier1, to decent in Tier2/3. Tough to play fully effectively, but good ones do great.

I love my WP, I have a great time with the class, I just wish the itemization wasnt so erratic. Some chapters ALL the gear is +willpower and +wounds, some are +weapon skill and + toughness, overall though there is way to much willpower on their gear. 2 of the WP lines get a great return on strength, yet in some places there is a horrible lack of str on the gear. Level 20 to 24, I think I found maybe 2 pieces of gear with str that was worth upgrading. It was very frustrating, now I am 25 more is starting to show up.

It seems that WP falls in to the old WoW hybrid problem, of the devs not knowing how to itemize the class for the different specs so they just sort of throw all kinds of random stats on all the gear.

[Lantyssa]

IMO pet mechanics are borked, and engineers/magi are "utility" classes (gawd, I hate that designation in a MMOG... to steal a quote from the wow pally forums, everyone wants to be the porn star, nobody wants to be the fluffer. ) and pretty pathetic in smaller scale engagements.

Yesterday I decided to play my Engineer in scenarios.  I had given up on her at level 8, as soloing through PvE was getting painful.  In Teir 1 scenarios, at least, I was consistantly in the top two for damage.  All but a handful of people ignored my turrets which were just off to the side of the battlefield, but in plain sight.  I would find a high perch to snipe and throw acid bombs.  Usually the only time anyone came after me was if there weren't a lot of targets left.  My Morale 1 ability would be ready, so I'd launch them away, usually quite successfully.  (My favorite was sending a Witch Elf off the backside of Nordenwatch's Fortress.  I bet she was pissed.)

I'll try some Teir 2 today and see how that goes.  Their layout doesn't seem like it will be as favorable, but then I'm only learning those maps.

Right now, I'm inclined to think most people simply don't know how to play the classes.

[Evildrider]

If you want them to kill BW or Sorc damage then they better give us more hp's and resists.  Sorry i can't kill any melee once they get up to me.  My damage isn't nearly as high is what a WE can do to me in the same amount of time.

[kildorn]

Sorc/BW survivability is pretty much the same as SH/SW and Magus/Engie survivability.

They just do a crapton more damage.

[Paelos]

I don't get the hate on BW's. Yeah they do a lot of damage, but as a Black Orc I can juggernaught out of their stun and beat them to death even if they are 4 levels above me.

[Evildrider]

I don't get the hate on BW's. Yeah they do a lot of damage, but as a Black Orc I can juggernaught out of their stun and beat them to death even if they are 4 levels above me.

Tru dat.  lol.

Another thing.. You all might not want to stand all in one place and then keep standing there when I drop my aoe's on you.  :)

[Vinadil]

Granted, we are an all-dwarf guild... so we have the most OP tank/healer classes in the game.  But, so far the only competition we have comes from scenario teams stacked with sorceress.  And, in reality it only takes 2 IB and 2 RP to handle 3-4 sorcs.  I suppose everyone's experience is different, but I find our engineers to have perfectly acceptable survivability.  They don't seem nearly so squishy as the destro RDPS.  They might not have the burst damage, but if you have seen Electromagnet at work... well then the term "utility" now has a new meaning.  I love the utility of the class.

I suppose I am heavily on the side of the "lets wait until everyone is in T4 and people have a clue about how to play their classes and work together before we make major class changes" camp.  T4 seemed fine in beta.  In another 2 weeks our guild should be mostly T4 so perhaps my experience will change.  But, so far the "grind" has been less than WoW, and the enjoyment factor is still high.  There is enough to do that I don't have to spend my nights worrying about that little yellow line racing across the screen to the next Ding!

[Threash]

You won't see ANY order nerfs for a very long time, i don't care how op you think BWs are.  In fact they should probably bring the other order classes to BW levels.

[HaemishM]

I'd be behind the diminishing returns on roots (especially the AE ones) and/or lowering the durations. The knockbacks are annoying, but not deathly yet. I still haven't hit t3.

[schild]

Knockbacks are something that really seperate this game from other MMOGs for me. Especially with the lava. Using mine was a tough decision every time. Save up my morale for my tier 2 morale ability - which was an instant kill.

Speaking of, global thematic PVP changes?



This is my 'healer/witch elf/sorc killing' face.

Tick, and boom goes the dynamite.

[kildorn]

T3 knockbacks are annoying because they're instant death if the user knows what he's doing. Yay fucking Lava.

You can also exploit them a bit in Nordenwatch and knock people into the ocean, at which point they're out of the game for a good minute trying to find somewhere to climb back onto land.

As for AE: I simply believe AE should not do as much damage as single target. Pit of Shades is being used as an instant nuke right now because the per tic damage is so good, and it tics immediately. That's just stupid.