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Author Topic: The Elder Scrolls Online  (Read 755786 times)
Draegan
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Reply #910 on: November 29, 2012, 10:30:51 AM

I don't consider GW1 an MMO in the same fashion.
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Reply #911 on: November 29, 2012, 05:12:07 PM

Looks to me like you two (we three) agree.

That's no excuse to stop arguing.

Sheepherder
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Reply #912 on: November 30, 2012, 01:08:56 PM

But they don't have to really aim their abilities, so you can't test that or anything that goes along with that like leading a target and movement prediction.

Added in 5.0.

Of course, if the operative words here are simply leading and target prediction, then Iron Grenades.

They can't dash or dodge or roll or do anything movement-related except for a basic run and jump, so while you can test their ability to not stand in fire you can't test much else.

Umm, literally every class in WoW has some sort of untargeted "move faster" ability on a short cooldown now, most have had these abilities since 2004.  Two of these abilities are actually named dash and roll, dash has been in since the original game launch.

Positioning tends to not matter at a base gameplay level so you can't test that without shoehorning it into the raid mechanics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPJumGFCuEI
Draegan
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Reply #913 on: November 30, 2012, 03:34:28 PM

Now that's just an ignorant post.
Sheepherder
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Reply #914 on: November 30, 2012, 08:11:30 PM

Would you prefer it in bullet points?

Almost everything takes skill. The question is what kind of skill, what range of skill, is that skill an interesting and worthwhile thing to test, etc.

Sure, you can make "don't stand in the fire" REALLY hard if the fire is big and spawns really fast, and thus beating that encounter requires more skill of some sort, but that doesn't make it particular interesting or strategic.

An FPS has a lot of different ways for a game to introduce skill tests and strategy. You don't just put a crosshair over a guy and shoot them. You move, often with a physics based movement system. You jump around. You use terrain in a variety of ways. You use strategies that take advantage of sight lines. The game may have active dodging or an Unreal style teleporter or whatever. And you can also not stand in fire and manage ammo and keep track of your position and that of the enemy.


In an MMO like WoW there just aren't many things that a player can actually do that matter, so the things you can test are relatively low. Players can move so you can make them move out of fire. They can use abilities so you can make them use the right abilities at the right time. But they don't have to really aim their abilities, so you can't test that or anything that goes along with that like leading a target and movement prediction. They can't dash or dodge or roll or do anything movement-related except for a basic run and jump, so while you can test their ability to not stand in fire you can't test much else. Positioning tends to not matter at a base gameplay level so you can't test that without shoehorning it into the raid mechanics.

You can tune numbers so that an encounter takes more skill via a smaller margin for error but that's not the same as making a game interesting. There's nothing interesting about Battletoads or those crazy Mario romhacks, even though they are hard as hell.

The number of ways a WoW encounter can test skill is low because the number of meaningful things players can do in combat is low. By the way this is the exact reason Arkham City boss fights are so terrible. Against a non-human-sized single enemy there's just not many ways you can meaningfully interact.

  • More dumb fire abilities were added in 5.0.  Of course, if the operative words here are simply leading and target prediction, then Iron Grenades.
  • Umm, literally every class in WoW has some sort of untargeted "move faster" ability on a short cooldown now, most have had these abilities since 2004.  Two of these abilities are actually named dash and roll, dash has been in since the original game launch.
  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPJumGFCuEI - because movement isn't part of the base gameplay.

Still utterly fucking wrong, fancy that.  It's almost as if an argument built wholly on counter-factual assertions will not ever be right no matter what hangups you have about a fuckwit named Bruce who, I might add, would quote sentence fragments and omit large sections of a paragraph pursuant to the argument the person was making because he was an utter cock.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 08:21:04 PM by Sheepherder »
Paelos
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Reply #915 on: November 30, 2012, 08:21:43 PM


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Malakili
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Reply #916 on: November 30, 2012, 08:39:04 PM

Sheepherder, we just have irreconcilably different definition of what constitutes movement being an part of the "base gameplay."  The video you linked is literally a warrior doing a LoS pull.  If that is interesting/engaging to you, that pretty much explains why we will never agree on what constitutes interesting and engaging combat/movement.

Here are some examples from my point of view:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NAmL4tjFzk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcYpuNNqL18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xg_Dx8xWXis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lrSVumR7l8

TERA, which has been cited a few times as one of the better MMO attempts has a bit more than average: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEWmtcnXF_w

I mean, pick whichever one you happen to like, any of them are obviously more interesting than most MMO combat/movement.  It isn't than MMOs have 0 redeeming features, it is that at this point I've played that side of them out and I really need actual engaging session to session gameplay to keep me interested.  Planetside 2 is the only MMO in a while which has actually left me wanting to log in just for the sheer enjoyment of playing it recently.  I'd like to see some more traditional fantasy MMOs manage to draw me in the same way.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 09:30:24 PM by Malakili »
Margalis
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Reply #917 on: November 30, 2012, 09:15:59 PM


This is a video of AI getting stuck on a corner.

Bravo.

Every time you guys post a video of how strategically advanced WOW is you are making my argument for me. So far we have a video of bad AI pathing being abused and a video of a boss fight that is quite literally "move out of the fire." What in this video is supposed to be interesting? The guy using "leap" (AKA another "move faster" ability)? What about AI getting stuck on a corner is impressive?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 09:42:19 PM by Margalis »

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Reply #918 on: November 30, 2012, 09:32:50 PM

Added in 5.0.

Wow, one ability that requires targeting, added recently! Well you totally just disproved my point, I guess aiming is super important in WoW! Let me guess, if you think hard enough you'll come up with a whole second ability as well! I guess I was wrong when I said "abilities don't require aiming", I should have said "nearly all abilities don't require aiming." Got me!

Quote
They can't dash or dodge or roll or do anything movement-related except for a basic run and jump, so while you can test their ability to not stand in fire you can't test much else.
Umm, literally every class in WoW has some sort of untargeted "move faster" ability on a short cooldown now, most have had these abilities since 2004.  Two of these abilities are actually named dash and roll, dash has been in since the original game launch.

Move faster is pretty exciting stuff!

All of these abilities, though they are called stuff like "roll" and "dash" and "sprint" etc, all seem to be functionally equivalent and just a movement speed boost. They don't allow you to actually dodge much if anything (other than pools of fire lol, it all comes back to that), and no abilities are aimed (oh sorry, one ability in the game requires targeting, my bad!) so...who cares?

You can run away from an encounter and joust in PVP. Is that it? (And jousting is stupid) Are we really going to pretend that running faster is super different from running normally? I guess you would argue that "basic run and jump" doesn't describe any game with analog speed control since you can not only run but run faster and slower as well.

Your standards are incredibly low.

A spell that increments your base movement rate is complex movement, kiting AI until it gets stuck on a corner because the pathfinding doesn't do any sort of avoidance or grouping is complex positioning and moving out of some fire is the height of strategic gameplay. What?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 10:03:58 PM by Margalis »

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Sheepherder
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Reply #919 on: November 30, 2012, 09:38:39 PM

This is a video of AI getting stuck on a corner.

Bravo.
A spell that increments your base movement rate is complex movement, kiting AI until it gets stuck on a corner because the pathfinding doesn't do any sort of avoidance or grouping is complex positioning and moving out of some fire is the height of strategic gameplay. It's like WoW and Peggle are the only two games you've ever played.

They're casters, they go around the corner, see the player, and start casting.  A stuck mob in WoW becomes unhittable, regenerates it's health, and drops aggro after a few seconds.

Bravo.

Sheepherder, we just have irreconcilably different definition of what constitutes movement being an part of the "base gameplay."  The video you linked is literally a warrior doing a LoS pull.  If that is interesting/engaging to you, that pretty much explains why we will never agree on what constitutes interesting and engaging combat/movement.

I could probably find some more exceptional examples, but he did ask for base gameplay, and that's pretty much the first example that comes to mind.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 09:41:15 PM by Sheepherder »
Malakili
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Reply #920 on: November 30, 2012, 09:45:33 PM



I could probably find some more exceptional examples, but he did ask for base gameplay, and that's pretty much the first example that comes to mind.

That's just the thing, we did want base gameplay, because that is what matters most of the time.  Finding exceptional examples isn't the point here.  The point is, the fundamentals of WoW-like combat just aren't very interesting to a lot of us anymore to the point where that combat system is enough for me to simply not care about a new MMORPG coming out if it uses it.  There are countless other games/genres which have engaging combat all the time, and although "Action oriented" is a buzz word on MMO boxes these days, exceedingly few have done much at all to break the mold.

If you like WoW combat for what it is, FINE, I'm glad you enjoy the game, but don't try to make it out to be something it's not.
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Reply #921 on: November 30, 2012, 09:59:10 PM

They're casters, they go around the corner, see the player, and start casting.  A stuck mob in WoW becomes unhittable, regenerates it's health, and drops aggro after a few seconds.

And? Who cares?

Why is this supposedly interesting, novel or impressive in any way? You can exploit AI behavior and pathfinding in WoW....ok...?

I don't understand what this video is supposed to illustrate. I said movement wasn't important and you linked to a video of a guy running around a corner to abuse AI and sucky pathfinding. What am I missing?

Should I link to a video of Asheron's Call 2 where a guy gets AI stuck on walls he creates? At least there the ability to create arbitrary walls in the environment is at least somewhat interesting.

Heres a video of a FFXI BCNM fight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxE2dbQ_OPM

It requires kiting, facing the right direction, letting an enemy start to cast then running out of range/sight, etc. I guess that proves...something. It seems like you'd have to argue that in this fight movement and positioning are important and the fight is mechanically interesting. Whereas I'd argue that although it's more interesting than fighting a standard enemy it's still nothing to write home about.

It's not like I've never played any video game before and getting AI stuck on a corner or in casting animation is an impressive strategy...it takes a little more than that to excite me. And again, fights like these are not the norm. In most fights that aren't raid bosses or BCNMs or whatever you stand there, eat your sandwich and win.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 10:10:23 PM by Margalis »

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Sheepherder
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Reply #922 on: November 30, 2012, 10:10:19 PM

Wow, one ability that requires targeting, added recently! Well you totally just disproved my point, I guess aiming is super important in WoW! Let me guess, if you think hard enough you'll come up with a whole second ability as well! I guess I was wrong when I said "abilities don't require aiming", I should have said "nearly all abilities don't require aiming." Got me!

Well, I assumed you had at one point in time some familiarity with the game, and so I wouldn't have to enumerate my way through a list of abilities which regularly benefit from some form of timing or aim, like the original Blizzard and it's delayed chill proc, or the original cast Shadowflame, or Cone of Cold for that matter.  You know, basic, early game "I had a level 20 rogue back in 2005 and gave up because this game was bullshit and this asshole mage kept kiting me" sorts of things.  Turns out: nope!  You have absofuckinglutely no idea what you're talking about.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 10:12:59 PM by Sheepherder »
Margalis
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Reply #923 on: November 30, 2012, 10:19:47 PM

Well, I assumed you had at one point in time some familiarity with the game, and so I wouldn't have to enumerate my way through a list of abilities which regularly benefit from some form of timing or aim, like the original Blizzard and it's delayed chill proc, or the original cast Shadowflame, or Cone of Cold for that matter.  You know, basic, early game "I had a level 20 rogue and gave up because this game was bullshit" sorts of things.  Turns out: nope!  You have absofuckinglutely no idea what you're talking about.

Since when are we debating whether or not you have to time abilities in an MMO? I specifically said leading targets and movement prediction.

"Some form of timing or aim" is not what we're talking about, we're talking about actual aiming. Yes, MMOs have conal spells and spherical spells...yay. Group a bunch of enemies in front of you then use your cone effect - strategy! Try to get enemies in range before using a spherical AOE attack!

Again I think your standards are just incredibly low. Yes, Cone of Cold benefits from the player not being completely brain dead and casting it facing backwards. If you want to consider that mechanical complexity and "aiming" go ahead I guess? In a game where most enemies do very little to avoid attacks you have to correctly aim a 90 degree arc to hit them...Cone of Cold is also instant cast no? So there is no movement prediction.

I'm sorry but "not facing backwards" is not aiming to me, at least not in a way that really matters.

Show me the "aiming" in the video you linked to. If aiming is important to base combat it should appear in that video no?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 10:27:57 PM by Margalis »

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Reply #924 on: November 30, 2012, 10:36:41 PM

I think we're going to just have to agree to disagree.

So far I've seen a video of a "don't stand in the fire" boss fight and a video of exploiting pathing. If you guys are happy with that in an MMO, if to you that is strategic, engaging, mechanically deep combat that's cool I guess.

I would like something more. Some people are happy with Dynasty Warriors. Some people aren't. To me aiming is not "face the right general direction", dynamic movement is not "you can also move faster", positioning is not "try to get the enemies to form a blob." I've played a lot of different kinds of game with a lot of different kinds of combat, from FPS to 3rd person action to turn-based strategy, and to me most MMO combat is scraping the bottom of the barrel in terms of being engaging. Combat in MMOs, especially combat against normal enemies, is usually trivial and rote from both a strategic and mechanical viewpoint.

Edit: And again, I'm not asking that WoW become a different game. I'm asking that other games make a break from WoW - which probably makes sense from a business standpoint as a well as a game design one.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 10:44:42 PM by Margalis »

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Sheepherder
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Reply #925 on: November 30, 2012, 10:42:59 PM

So let's talk, very specifically, about movement prediction then.  Possibly the related area denial as well.  Though I can't link some examples because they are no longer with us.

EDIT: Or not, your call.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 10:44:30 PM by Sheepherder »
Margalis
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Reply #926 on: November 30, 2012, 10:45:50 PM

So let's talk, very specifically, about movement prediction then.  Possibly the related area denial as well.  Though I can't link some examples because they are no longer with us.

EDIT: Or not, your call.

In a PVE game where enemies have no real AI is there such a thing as "movement prediction"?

In the video you linked to what exactly was the movement that required prediction? The enemies did what MMO enemies nearly always do and walked in a shortest path up to casting / melee range. The fact that you can place something on the ground that lasts for 10 seconds and activates when enemies walk though doesn't require prediction at all if enemies just move straight towards you. And the timing window is so loose that I don't see how you could screw it up.

If you fire a rocket in Quake even if you know the enemy is going to travel in a straight line you still need to time it within a window of milliseconds. Here you have a 10 second window and a large area to catch enemies moving basically deterministically. How is that not trivial?

Placing an obstacle in front of an enemy moving in a straight line is not movement prediction. Try again?

Here's a video of a game that requires much better timing and at least as much movement prediction:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=437Ld_rKM2s
« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 11:02:08 PM by Margalis »

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Sheepherder
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Reply #927 on: November 30, 2012, 11:03:17 PM

I have yet to see a singleplayer game where the AI looks for mines before advancing on the player either.

For that matter, I had some good times with mines in UT2004.
Margalis
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Reply #928 on: November 30, 2012, 11:42:13 PM

I have yet to see a singleplayer game where the AI looks for mines before advancing on the player either.

For that matter, I had some good times with mines in UT2004.

Have you played a single-player game where the AI does more than make a beeline directly towards the player? Because such games do exist, believe it or not.

When the enemy moves in a predictable straight line directly towards you and you place a spell that has a long duration and area to intercept them how exactly does that require movement prediction? It's a pretty straightforward question that you apparently have no answer to despite bringing it up as a positive example.

I like how you said "let's talk, very specifically" about this, didn't actually talk about it at all other than pasting links, then when I did talk specifically about it changed the subject to Unreal Tournament. If you have something intelligent to say about movement prediction in WoW say it already. Cause it kind of looks like you don't.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 11:49:07 PM by Margalis »

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Margalis
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Reply #929 on: December 01, 2012, 12:05:42 AM

Edit: Eh, Sheepherder gonna sheepherd.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 12:15:22 AM by Margalis »

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Sheepherder
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Reply #930 on: December 01, 2012, 12:17:10 AM

I'm sort of bemused that, since we've now discovered that you do indeed have abilities that incentivize you to predict the movements of AI or players that the issue now is that the AI doesn't dodge them.  Just like when we discovered that you have what amounts to dodging abilities, but they're not creative enough, because they're all a variant on "move faster."
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 12:33:03 AM by Sheepherder »
Margalis
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Reply #931 on: December 01, 2012, 12:33:43 AM

I'm sort of bemused that, since we've now discovered that you do indeed have abilities that incentive you to predict the movements of AI or players that the issue now is that the AI doesn't dodge them.  Just like when we discovered that you have what amounts to dodging abilities, but they're not creative enough, because they're all a variant on "move faster."

1. I asked you twice what actually required prediction in the use of these abilities and both times you refused to answer. So clearly the answer is "nothing."

2. "Dodging" is not the same as "not moving in a completely predictable straight path that requires zero prediction to take advantage of."

3. We didn't discover that you have what "amounts to dodging abilities", as the abilities you mentioned do not dodge, they merely increase movement speed.

I like how you lead off this discussion by implying that I was a cock for selective quoting and answering, then said you would "talk specifically" about a subject, the proceeded to not only not talk specifically about it but dodge extremely obvious and straightforward questions because you can't answer them without making yourself look foolish.

The fact that you repeatedly refuse to answer straightforward questions means you've conceded the argument. This is not 1993 on Usenet when these moronic internet debating tactics took people by surprise and worked.

I'm still waiting for you talk "very specifically" about movement prediction in WoW, because despite your vow to do that you've said nothing intelligent about it at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFG0GL8YrC8&feature=fvst

This is the first result on youtube for "let's play World of Warcraft." Wow, the combat is so intense and dynamic! (Skip to 5 minutes in) So much positioning, movement prediction, aiming, etc. Note that this is only slightly shittier than the video you linked to which was supposed to be an example of advanced tactics in WoW and consisted of AI getting stuck on a corner.

Is this video fake? It's fake right?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 12:50:32 AM by Margalis »

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Sheepherder
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Reply #932 on: December 01, 2012, 01:50:11 AM

1. I asked you twice what actually required prediction in the use of these abilities and both times you refused to answer. So clearly the answer is "nothing."

Or, possibly, sticking it on the ground where you expect person/mob to be at some unspecified point in the future due to easily predictable pathfinding/player behaviour; fight scripting; or coordination with another player over how you're going to move a mob.  Obvious answer is obvious.

2. "Dodging" is not the same as "not moving in a completely predictable straight path that requires zero prediction to take advantage of."

First: grammar snake attack.  If you can't see it, look harder.

There are a select few mobs in the game that actually toss in random movements, (usually via special ability) that number appears to be increasing.  They're generally more annoying than effective, because if it isn't in melee range it's either ranged and thus usually stationary or not doing damage to you, and the shortest distance between two points is a straight line.  Scripting a mob to occasionally jump in a random direction just gives my warrior an extra opportunity to charge.

3. We didn't discover that you have what "amounts to dodging abilities", as the abilities you mentioned do not dodge, they merely increase movement speed.

As is double tapping a direction in Unreal Tournament.  Functionally, the difference is that you have to outrange/line of sight some attacks before it fires rather than interrupting it in flight, while others you can dodge in progress, (there's usually one of these per class) and against players you can dodge behind the player to interrupt the attack if they aren't quick to mouselook around.

Quote
I like how you lead off this discussion by implying that I was a cock for selective quoting and answering

Is your name Bruce?
Kageru
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Reply #933 on: December 01, 2012, 02:47:42 AM


...what is this, I have no idea.

I wouldn't worry about it. The future for mainstream MMO's will involve trying to drag in the short attention span button mashers from the console generation. WoW is from an olden time when games could be measured and tactical, and EQ would probably blow their minds if their "bored, I sleep now" circuits didn't cut in.

Tera is basically the start of it, but I would expect that trend to continue.

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Margalis
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Reply #934 on: December 01, 2012, 03:49:39 AM

1. I asked you twice what actually required prediction in the use of these abilities and both times you refused to answer. So clearly the answer is "nothing."
Or, possibly, sticking it on the ground where you expect person/mob to be at some unspecified point in the future due to easily predictable pathfinding/player behaviour

So movement prediction in WoW is trivial. Got it.

This was my original statement that you took issue with:

Quote
But they don't have to really aim their abilities, so you can't test that or anything that goes along with that like leading a target and movement prediction.

So your argument is that you can test movement prediction  - but the test is trivially easy to pass. Which is basically a restatement of my argument. A gameplay test that the player can't fail is not meaningful and does not add any systemic depth.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 04:01:57 AM by Margalis »

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Reply #935 on: December 01, 2012, 04:56:00 AM

I would be pretty happy for the time being if they implemented Vindictus combat in a real, open world MMORPG. This is pretty much what Tera is trying to do, and what some of us would like. No amount of gimmicky bomb-throwing is gonna make WoW and the auto-attack brigade into one of those games. Are the EQ/WoW-likes good games with their own kind of skill involved? Sure. Are they satisfying to those who are looking for more twitch in their MMORPGs? No, and I don't even understand why someone wants WoW to fit in that category so bad.

Please drop it. We probably all enjoyed EQ/WoW/Rift at some point. But these are not the games we are talking about now and wishing for in the future. If you don't get it, I can only think that for some weird doctrinaire or emotional reasons you are taking the limits and the obsolescence of WoW too personally.

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Reply #936 on: December 01, 2012, 06:57:47 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFG0GL8YrC8&feature=fvst

This is the first result on youtube for "let's play World of Warcraft." Wow, the combat is so intense and dynamic! (Skip to 5 minutes in) So much positioning, movement prediction, aiming, etc. Note that this is only slightly shittier than the video you linked to which was supposed to be an example of advanced tactics in WoW and consisted of AI getting stuck on a corner.

Is this video fake? It's fake right?

By any chance did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night?
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Reply #937 on: December 01, 2012, 07:18:18 AM

This is a ridiculous argument. You're both drawing down the IQ of the board with this nonsense.

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Malakili
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Reply #938 on: December 01, 2012, 07:48:19 AM


...what is this, I have no idea.

I wouldn't worry about it. The future for mainstream MMO's will involve trying to drag in the short attention span button mashers from the console generation. WoW is from an olden time when games could be measured and tactical, and EQ would probably blow their minds if their "bored, I sleep now" circuits didn't cut in.


It has nothing to do with measured and tactical.   I played World War 2 Online for a long time.  It was measured, tactical, slow as hell, and absolutely intense and engaging.  Hell, I raided in WoW for years in a fairly high end guild (at least within the context of the server I played on, we weren't contending for world firsts or anything, but we were contending for server firsts).  The combat was NEVER measured and tactical.   It was often coordinated, but it wasn't as if we needed brilliant strategists to make important on the fly tactical decisions 95% of the time.  Everyone had a pre-set job, and you had to execute it.  Perhaps newer boss fights are more dynamic (Cataclysm raiding and onward, I have no experience), but it isn't like WoW raiding is somehow a shining light of strategic and tactical combat and people like me are arguing that we just wish we could hit buttons more often.  I mean come on.

And even when they manage to put together interesting fights, of which there were many actually, it was a result of them designing particular fights to be interesting, not interesting combat which simply arose from great fundamental combat mechanics.  That video Margalis linked of a low level rogue Let's Play is the fundamental combat of WoW and WoW-alikes in my opinion - particularly for someone who plays the game solo most of the time.   THAT is the experience that needs to change to get MMORPGs to interest me again.  Raids/Group scripted fights can and always will have the potential to be interesting depending on their specific mechanics, but that isn't evidence that the fundamentals are good.

I'm not saying current MMO combat needs to be obliterated and that no future MMOs should have it.  It does have an audience.  But for ME to care about this genre again, it will need to produce a more interesting set of combat mechanics that have me engaged. 

Sheepherder
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Reply #939 on: December 01, 2012, 09:24:33 AM

This is a ridiculous argument. You're both drawing down the IQ of the board with this nonsense.

It is, that was going to be my last comment on the topic.
Margalis
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Reply #940 on: December 01, 2012, 09:28:51 PM

It is, that was going to be my last comment on the topic.

Edit: Stop posting then. Bye.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 10:12:24 PM by Margalis »

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Triforcer
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Reply #941 on: December 02, 2012, 08:27:39 AM

Saying that MMO combat "must" evolve into twitchy real-time target-leading combat is like saying chess "must" evolve into Hungry Hungry Hippos. I really hope both have a place in the future- there will always be a cohort that simply isn't good at twitch (or semi-twitch) combat. 

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Paelos
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Reply #942 on: December 02, 2012, 04:29:38 PM

It has to evolve though. That much is certain. People having tried to piggyback off the current iteration of WoW and failed.

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eldaec
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Reply #943 on: December 02, 2012, 04:36:14 PM

It has to evolve though. That much is certain. People having tried to piggyback off the current iteration of WoW and failed.

I keep coming back to EQ2, CoX, GW as the sort of approach devs should be taking. Not necessarily for the specific mechanics, but for the fact they actually tried to move shit forward.

They have to see prior MMOGs as a platform to build on, not as the definition of the limits of player expectation.

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Draegan
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Reply #944 on: December 03, 2012, 07:29:18 AM

It doesn't have to evolve into a twitchier game set, but I would like it to.
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