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Author Topic: The Elder Scrolls Online  (Read 755813 times)
Lantyssa
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Reply #595 on: November 10, 2012, 07:37:11 AM

I'm the one around here usually liking games "too much" and being made fun of because of that. f13 is not gonna change and neither am I.
Don't be so hard on yourself, Falc.  You may unjustifiably love a game, but you know it's just your opinion, not the end-all-be-all for everyone else.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
climbjtree
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Reply #596 on: November 10, 2012, 09:38:53 AM

Pardon my off topic intrusion, but ol' blackwulf is the only person I've seen insert two spaces after a period since I learned to type in middle school.

...

Carry on.

edit: Uh, and of course Lantyssa. Immediately after I posted this post.
Rendakor
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Reply #597 on: November 10, 2012, 10:51:46 AM

So blackwulf is Lantyssa's gimmick account?

"i can't be a star citizen. they won't even give me a star green card"
Kail
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Reply #598 on: November 10, 2012, 10:54:38 AM

I'll put it this way. I'm interested in where they are headed. The idea of combat that isn't a tab-target ripoff is a good idea.

What worries me is that when I heard it described, it sounded like a kludged together mask over a tab target system, rather than any kind of fundamental change in the mechanics.   There was still tab tageting, it wasn't some free-aiming collision check thing like AoC or [insert action game], it was just that you were in mouselook by default and automatically targeting whatever was under your cursor when you clicked the ability.   And you still had the ability to "lock" in targets.   And I'd be really surprised if there wasn't also a button to cycle targets, though I didn't see that explicitly stated.   Which makes the whole thing seem to me like putting cat ears on a dog when you've just heard that nobody wants to buy a dog.

I suppose it would look more open, and might even feel more open, but in any marginally challenging context, the ability to lock targets is going to obviate the entire aiming mechanic.   It's one of those systems whose sole purpose is to mask another system, so 95% of it's effectiveness is going to be how it deals with the limitations of that underlying system.   How does it handle attacks against no target, or when the target wanders in front of the fireball halfway through it's travel path, or against a fast moving target at range, how does it deal with cover, that kind of thing is going to determine how well this works, for me.
Lantyssa
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Reply #599 on: November 10, 2012, 11:27:24 AM

And Kail, apparently.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Kail
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Reply #600 on: November 10, 2012, 11:32:45 AM

Pfft, no.   Count again, you posers, I'm TRIPLE SPACING this shit.
Miasma
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Stopgap Measure


Reply #601 on: November 10, 2012, 01:01:22 PM

Double spacers unite!
Ingmar
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Reply #602 on: November 10, 2012, 01:06:08 PM

Falconeer,

You make a very good point.  A few months go by, some new vids and preview articles get released, and I think I can come here and talk about actual features with people.  Instead, when I list features I think sound good, I get shit on.  When people talk about the game radiating "failvibes" they get high fived.

I think it would be prudent for me a step back for a few months again, and we'll see how things are going.

My advice would just be participate in the community instead of just the one thread, and everyone will put up with this stuff more. Probably.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Lantyssa
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Reply #603 on: November 10, 2012, 02:27:59 PM

Not if it's not backed up by anything.  See our reaction to Bloodworth after he latches on to a game. Grin

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Evildrider
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Reply #604 on: November 10, 2012, 02:56:16 PM

Falconeer,

You make a very good point.  A few months go by, some new vids and preview articles get released, and I think I can come here and talk about actual features with people.  Instead, when I list features I think sound good, I get shit on.  When people talk about the game radiating "failvibes" they get high fived.

I think it would be prudent for me a step back for a few months again, and we'll see how things are going.

My advice would just be participate in the community instead of just the one thread, and everyone will put up with this stuff more. Probably.

Don't listen to Ingmar, it's all a trap!
Zetor
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WWW
Reply #605 on: November 10, 2012, 09:38:14 PM

Joining the f13 Blood Bowl league may also help. Or not.  why so serious?

Samprimary
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Reply #606 on: November 10, 2012, 10:12:35 PM

Elder Scrolls Online, as marketed so far, should not in the least be used as any measure of f13 being a bunch of pessimistic grouches — the game legitimately is a perfect example of something that rightfully provokes a bad gut feeling and poor confidence in industry types and mmo veterans alike
satael
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Reply #607 on: November 11, 2012, 02:22:52 AM

Joining the f13 Blood Bowl league may also help. Or not.  why so serious?

A few games of blood bowl with some bad luck and you'll start to feel it  DRILLING AND MANLINESS
UnSub
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Reply #608 on: November 11, 2012, 04:51:25 AM

Elder Scrolls Online, as marketed so far, should not in the least be used as any measure of f13 being a bunch of pessimistic grouches — the game legitimately is a perfect example of something that rightfully provokes a bad gut feeling and poor confidence in industry types and mmo veterans alike

If this was 2007-ish and TESO was appearing at it is, then we'd probably not be thinking this way either. But I think that TESO has missed the MMO boat by about 5 years.

rattran
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Unreasonable


Reply #609 on: November 11, 2012, 05:45:04 AM

It's never too late to catch the MMO Failboat.
Azazel
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Reply #610 on: November 11, 2012, 11:21:33 PM

Not if it's not backed up by anything.  See our reaction to Bloodworth after he latches on to a game. Grin

The difference is, we love Bloodworth.  awesome, for real

http://azazelx.wordpress.com/ - My Miniatures and Hobby Blog.
Sheepherder
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Reply #611 on: November 12, 2012, 12:27:18 AM

...From what we know the game has been in development for 5 years, and it's slated to release next year, but up until recently they were talking about an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT COMBAT SYSTEM.

Now, I'm not saying a switch away from what I was originally hearing as a standard tab-target bullshit combat system isn't a positive move. What concerns me is that they A - didn't know that TES players would balk at that bullshit, and B - they are changing it this late in the game. I mean, changing combat in an RPG game isn't a small task. You've overhauling the way the game operates at a baseline level. If this is supposed to release in a year, how much time have they now scrapped because their combat previously was ass?

You might be overestimating the complexity here a tad.  It wouldn't take much to turn something like Cone of Cold in WoW into a Morrowind/Oblivion/Skyrim style melee attack (on keyboard/mouse input run a dummy CoC type attack, compare distance and heading of everything in the cone's arc to get a single most likely target, do a basic attack on that target).  In WoW terms player-controlled blocking is simply periodically checking for an input state, then modifying block chance (someone wrote a mod that does exactly this for Morrowind via Morrowind Script Extender).

Not to say that the argument doesn't have merit, or that the various and sundry other reasons to be suspicious of this game don't exist, but generating art assets is supposed to be the major bottleneck anyways.

It's never too late to catch the MMO Failboat.

The failboat never sets sail, only sinks.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 12:32:44 AM by Sheepherder »
Hawkbit
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Reply #612 on: November 12, 2012, 01:08:20 AM

I'd be more excited about this if they were doing an all-PvE MMO.  The fact that they're putting any sort of PvP into it means all kinds of stupid balancing shit is going to take place.  Essentially, the whole character gen will have to be re-envisioned. 

So we have proven single-player studio doing their first MMO and trying to be AAA with a metric fuckton of money.  This has all the hallmarks of a major disaster.  Not to mention that they simply won't be able to create a world big enough in their MMO to make Tamriel look even mildly plausible.

I want to get my hopes up and love this idea, but just no.
blackwulf
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Reply #613 on: November 12, 2012, 05:40:48 AM

So we have proven single-player studio doing their first MMO and trying to be AAA with a metric fuckton of money.  This has all the hallmarks of a major disaster.  Not to mention that they simply won't be able to create a world big enough in their MMO to make Tamriel look even mildly plausible.

Bethesda isn't making it.  Zenimax (the parent company of Bethesda) built a new studio for this game and hired industry vets.  Matt Firor is heading it up, along with other pre-WAR Mythic employees, some vets from UO, and dozens of other experienced MMO people.  Really, according to interviews, the only thing Bethesda has to do with this game is that they have had input on the use of lore.
I think this is an interesting point, because I think it's kind of the opposite of what Bioware did with SWTOR - they created the game in house, and consulted with MMO vets.  Or am I wrong?

With regard to your second point - I would be tempted to agree, but, unless they are lying, each province is as big as one of the single player TES games.

And, yes, guys - I realize it is possible they are lying about this stuff, and I want to see some more vids too!

Also, I can't break that old two spaces after a period habit that my typing instructor drilled into me.  It just happens.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 05:50:36 AM by blackwulf »
Merusk
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Reply #614 on: November 12, 2012, 05:52:38 AM

Past MMO dev isn't a boon at this point, it's a handicap. I'm a fan of the genre and some of the least-liked games and even *I* can admit that.

The games that were popular in their heyday were popular because there were no alternatives.  You've seen better games from people with no experience and no expectations of what the game should and shouldn't do at this point.   From a game system standpoint, give me new blood.

The only guys who should be getting props WRT past experience are the tech guys; and only if their systems weren't going to shit on launch or shortly thereafter.


Adding PVP in to the mix makes this a non-starter. RPGs aren't the vehicle for successful PVP that's fun for all parties. Never have been and it's not likely they ever will be.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
blackwulf
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Reply #615 on: November 12, 2012, 06:16:41 AM

That's an interesting way of looking at things.  I agree that I wouldn't trust anything from some industry vets. *cough* Mark Jacobs.  If you think about it, some of the biggest letdowns in the last decade have been made by guys who were responsible for our favorite games.  Vangaurd, Tabula Rasa, pretty much anything by SOE, WAR.  I could go on.

That said, does that mean you should throw the baby out with the bathwater?  Keep in mind that this game has been in development a long time.  Six or so years.  Where you willing to write off experienced devs in 2006?  Most of the huge failures in recent memory had nothing to do with the guys working on ESO.

I think if you consider other industries, you'd agree that usually experience is a good thing.  Now, I'll be clear, there is no excuse for repeating mistakes made by other game studios.  If they haven't had their ears to the ground in recent years and made sure they aren't doing something stupid, I'll be right there with the rest of the peasants holding pitchforks...
Ironwood
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Reply #616 on: November 12, 2012, 06:40:48 AM

The baby's dead, Burke.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
koro
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Reply #617 on: November 12, 2012, 07:00:43 AM

Where you willing to write off experienced devs in 2006?

If the game's development started in 2006 and finished in 2008 or 2009? Not at all.

Six years is an eternity  in game development, even for MMOs which tend to take longer than the average game to make. After six years I imagine the project leads have either been so myopic that the game will launch out of date with a bunch of systems people thought antiquated three to five years ago, or it'll have gotten a late-stage "let's be all things to everybody" pass to try and cast a wider net over the potential audience, which just ends up with a bunch of three-quarters-baked systems that'll never quite get finished.

I imagine the game can still do well, somehow, but there is just so much stacked against it: the excruciatingly long dev time, the backwards-looking project leads hoping to recapture past glories, the now-utterly hostile market (I will be stunned if the game doesn't launch with a $15/mo subscription), the wholly inappropriate license for the setting... That's not even going into the potential land mines of individual game systems, especially the open-world PvP area with game-wide consequences relating to its control, which will be an albatross around this game's neck.
Lantyssa
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Reply #618 on: November 12, 2012, 07:36:18 AM

I think this is an interesting point, because I think it's kind of the opposite of what Bioware did with SWTOR - they created the game in house, and consulted with MMO vets.  Or am I wrong?
It's exactly what they did with SWToR.

Bioware Edmonton just did the writing and consulting initially.  They eventually brought in people, but it was mostly run by MMO industry vets at a new studio.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
blackwulf
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Reply #619 on: November 12, 2012, 07:52:46 AM

I imagine the game can still do well, somehow, but there is just so much stacked against it: the excruciatingly long dev time, the backwards-looking project leads hoping to recapture past glories, the now-utterly hostile market (I will be stunned if the game doesn't launch with a $15/mo subscription), the wholly inappropriate license for the setting... That's not even going into the potential land mines of individual game systems, especially the open-world PvP area with game-wide consequences relating to its control, which will be an albatross around this game's neck.

Yeah, when you lay it out like that, it does sound grim!  Here's hoping they have a lot more to show us...
Merusk
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Reply #620 on: November 12, 2012, 08:02:57 AM

That said, does that mean you should throw the baby out with the bathwater?  Keep in mind that this game has been in development a long time.  Six or so years.  Where you willing to write off experienced devs in 2006?  Most of the huge failures in recent memory had nothing to do with the guys working on ESO.

I think if you consider other industries, you'd agree that usually experience is a good thing.  Now, I'll be clear, there is no excuse for repeating mistakes made by other game studios.  If they haven't had their ears to the ground in recent years and made sure they aren't doing something stupid, I'll be right there with the rest of the peasants holding pitchforks...

I was and did write-off a number of "vets" in 2006.  Warhammer only got me because of the focused testing hiding the underlayer of crap.  The vets from UO, COH, EQ, AC, FFXI and SWG? I totally wrote them off after I saw the number of, "Oh that's an error" and "outlier, ignore it" or "just a bunch of Blizzard fanboys" comments thrown at WoW by the lot of them.   They weren't willing to change or learn from a game that ate their old paradigm for lunch.  They were dinosaurs then and moreso now.

Experience is a good thing only so long as you don't let it hinder growth.  Games are creative as well as technical with an iterative evolutionary process.  You learn from the past and cherry pick the parts you like.  Experience should tell you what didn't work and what you need to fix in the next iteration. That doesn't happen when you take the attitude of, "I was the hot shit before, clearly people want more of the same hot shit!"   Even Blizzard fell victim to this mentality and it has cost them nearly their entire audience because of it and their rep has taken hits on the SP and MMO front I don't think they'll recover from.

The other problem is No MMO dev has learned you can't be everything to everyone, and they've all suffered for it.  Sometimes you just have to say, "Sorry, we're not focused on your playstyle."  Much like I don't go to Steak 'n Shake for pancakes (which they're advertising the hell out of so I mention it.)  I don't go to an excellent PVE MMO for PVP.   Trying only makes things awful for everyone.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Paelos
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Reply #621 on: November 12, 2012, 08:06:32 AM

If the words "tab-target" "lock-on target" or "click target" make an appearance, this game will be DOA. Not once has anyone who ever played a TES game had to "target" anything. They'll lose their audience then and there.

That being said, my main hope is that they revamp the system enough to do something that's not been done before. That something would be to take the combat style of Chivalry or Mount and Blade, and apply it to the MMO format.

IF they could do that, I'd drop WoW in a hot second.

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Draegan
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Reply #622 on: November 12, 2012, 08:26:45 AM

Am I the only one who compares old MMO-Developer vets to George Lucas?  Scott Hartsman is the only exception to the rule.
Malakili
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Reply #623 on: November 12, 2012, 08:40:05 AM

I just don't think any MMO project that is aiming at anything like "AAA" is going to turn out well at this point.  Make something narrow and focused that I am interested in and I will try it, but these huge fantasy MMO releases just don't interest me anymore.  I got dragged in to release after release for years, and I'm mostly burnt out on the idea regardless of what feature list they throw at me.
Hawkbit
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Reply #624 on: November 12, 2012, 08:45:20 AM

If the words "tab-target" "lock-on target" or "click target" make an appearance, this game will be DOA. Not once has anyone who ever played a TES game had to "target" anything. They'll lose their audience then and there.

I realize I'm picking the pieces apart of this game as we often do here, and I feel overly negative about it.  I'll likely end up buying it at some point because, well, it's TES.  But I'm extremely suspect that I'll actually like it. 

How are they handling zone levels?  Part of the feeling of the TES games is the ability to go where you want, no con mobs, and possibly just get beat down.  I can't see that translating to an MMO without too much player whine.  However, if the game is simply Cyrodill is the lvl 1-10 newb zone, then Hammerfall is lvl 20-30, then that's some crap. 
ajax34i
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Reply #625 on: November 12, 2012, 09:09:39 AM

I haven't played an Elder Scrolls game without modding the magic system to give me more mana, and I've played almost all of them.  I also mod the skill levelling system, mostly because they never quite got right (imo) the way enemies level up with you, and I hate being underpowered / unprepared because I've jumped, ran, or swam too much, or because I've tried to make some money via one of the crafts.

Obviously, in an MMO, we won't be able to mod anything, which just kills the game for me.
Merusk
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Reply #626 on: November 12, 2012, 09:31:58 AM

If you don't care why you're killing 10000 foozles, I can understand the burnout.  It's never been there for me because I did care. It's always been about the "world" to me, even though I play for the game aspects. (I have no interest in being a Space Tailor, thanks.)  

I didn't jump in to several of the games because I couldn't get in to the world and the lore, even if the mechanics were fun.  Guildwars 1 bored me and I wasn't interested, so I can't even attempt GW2 even with all the glowing praise.   The same for Secret World.  I'm not in to horror and Lovecraft so I was immediately disinterested.  Pity, as they both sounded fun.

So fantasy or not, sci-fi or not, the next game will be one that draws me in on that then keeps me via the combination of mechanics and lore.  (No, TES won't be it.  I've tried them since my college buddy went apeshit for the first elder scrolls in '94 and haven't enjoyed a single one.)

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Malakili
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Reply #627 on: November 12, 2012, 10:09:43 AM

If you don't care why you're killing 10000 foozles, I can understand the burnout.  It's never been there for me because I did care. It's always been about the "world" to me, even though I play for the game aspects. (I have no interest in being a Space Tailor, thanks.)  

I didn't jump in to several of the games because I couldn't get in to the world and the lore, even if the mechanics were fun.  Guildwars 1 bored me and I wasn't interested, so I can't even attempt GW2 even with all the glowing praise.   The same for Secret World.  I'm not in to horror and Lovecraft so I was immediately disinterested.  Pity, as they both sounded fun.

So fantasy or not, sci-fi or not, the next game will be one that draws me in on that then keeps me via the combination of mechanics and lore.  (No, TES won't be it.  I've tried them since my college buddy went apeshit for the first elder scrolls in '94 and haven't enjoyed a single one.)

The real problem is that I just can't look past the fact that the story is all smoke and mirrors in the traditional DIKU model.  You aren't actually changing the game world at all.  WoW phasing is one attempt at fixing this, but in the end it just makes it so I am reminded even more or the game mechanics, not less.  I think I was most "in" to the EVE story, because the story was literally the history of what the players had done, and the reason I was doing something had to do with those interplayer relationships and actions.  You can't replicate that in an DIKU to me.
Wasted
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Reply #628 on: November 12, 2012, 10:17:59 AM

I'm burnt out on the idea that I need the same game to play for months at a time.  If I get a few weeks out of a single player game in general I feel I got my money's worth, and I treat MMO's the same way now.  I've stopped caring about long term viability, end-game and balancing, all I want is something fun to play for a while.  Once the novelty wears off and I can see the repetition and time sinks to pad out the fun I move on.  I have no loyalty, and aren't swayed at all anymore by the achievement carrots to max out and finish this or that or get the best loot.

Now that I have that perspective I look at a game like this and think, I'll probably get the box value out of it, and stop caring how they will fuck it up for the longer term.
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Reply #629 on: November 12, 2012, 10:23:42 AM

was kinda hoping to get some discussion going again about a game that I think is probably going to be the last of the really big budget MMOs (maybe not if they can pull it off.)

We are having a discussion - it's just that not one person here agrees with you about how abso-fucking-lutely great this video is and how it's going to revolutionize the MMO. You don't sound like someone having a discussion, you sound like someone proselytizing for a game that hasn't given one indication it will be any different than anything we've seen before and may actually be a step back considering it's been in development for five years.

You don't have to agree with us that this will suck, but you do have to at least provide SOMETHING of substance that leads you to believe it. 100 people look at that video and you are the only 1 who doesn't think it's at the very best boring, that problem ain't with the 99 or the house they choose to have a discussion in.

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