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Author Topic: The Elder Scrolls Online  (Read 755953 times)
LC
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Reply #350 on: May 30, 2012, 11:38:00 AM

I'm brand new, but have been reading for awhile.  Just thought it was terrible to see all the whining and pessimism about a potentially awesome game.

The only thing awesome about this game is the Michael Bay style explosion we will see at the inevitable train wreck.
Kail
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Reply #351 on: May 30, 2012, 01:08:31 PM

I watched both videos. Here are the key points they made.
[snip]

Ah, thanks for that.  

I dunno, this is turning into a bit of a head scratcher for me.  Stuff like small numbers of attacks and being less about skill rotation sound good to me.  Stuff like being "less about the numbers" and dungeon content changing depending on what classes you bring sounds like they don't know their audience.

I'm not sure what to make of the idea that locational effects are supposed to be important.  Is this not still a tab targeting based game?  Because landing AoE is always a bigger pain in the ass in those games, and the main benefit for going tab targeting (frees the mouse to access the skillbar) seems to be limited if they're reducing the number of available abilities.
Paelos
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Reply #352 on: May 30, 2012, 03:04:05 PM

What they really seem to be talking about is this kind of combat:

Melee advance towards targets. Ranged first at the advancing melee. Melee decide to use block to continue the advance, which drains stamina. Healer for melee tosses healing crap on ground. Mage for melee tosses fire crap on ground. Melee moves into said ground effects which procs new skills like FIRE ATTACK and REGEN STRIKE or something.

Supposedly the monsters will counter you by trying to CC your advance, which you can break with stamina. However, you would then lose a lot of your stamina to continue blocking for that fight, so you would have to close quickly. Also, warriors that are out of stamina can switch weapons on the fly to ranged, but they wouldn't be nearly as effective. Likewise for ranged who find themselves in close combat.

They talk a lot about synergies and tactics, but it depends on two things: 1 - The enemy AI, and 2 - Whether or not most of this makes it beyond testing.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
Draegan
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Reply #353 on: May 30, 2012, 03:32:27 PM

Seems like Zenimax or Anet stole ideas from each other.
UnSub
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Reply #354 on: May 30, 2012, 06:20:59 PM

They talk a lot about synergies and tactics, but it depends on two things: 1 - The enemy AI, and 2 - Whether or not most of this makes it beyond testing.

Also critical is how players react (if at all) to these proposed systems. I've seen a lot of devs talk about the tactics and synergies in their game, then the players come through screaming, "POUR ON THE DAMAGE! DPS IS THE ONLY STAT THAT COUNTS!".

Skyrim had lots of tactics I could use; it was often just easier to sneak attack arrow for a one-shot kill every mob in a dungeon.

Draegan
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Reply #355 on: May 30, 2012, 09:01:03 PM

That describes every game.
Fabricated
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Reply #356 on: May 31, 2012, 05:28:51 AM

Skyrim pretty much rules out finesse on the highest difficulty. You either make a nearly indestructible tank shrouded in elemental resists with the armor cap, or you make a duel-wielder and use the elemental fury shout to literally hit stuff 30 times in the space of 2-3 seconds.

I went with the former, my cousin made the latter. When he runs into an ancient dragon, if he gets breathed on he near instantly dies, but the instant that thing lands? BZZZZZZZZZZZT, dead, in 4-5 seconds.

"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
Capitalist Swine
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Reply #357 on: May 31, 2012, 07:51:56 AM


The only thing awesome about this game is the Michael Bay style explosion we will see at the inevitable train wreck.

Can you please share your crystal ball with me?  I have some unanswered questions of my own!
Paelos
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Reply #358 on: May 31, 2012, 07:58:06 AM

The reason the game is a probably train-wreck is they aren't really innovating combat. They are slapping a new coat of paint on the old rules.

The first thing players will bitch about will be the lack of cast bars. The idea that players want visual effects to dictate action only works when you control the action from a single focal point of your screen. When action is controlled via an action bar, instead of mouse clicking, you are putting those two methods at odds. You eye must be drawn both to the actions and to the activity on the screen. This creates a schism in the playerbase, because some people can handle that transition and some can't. See: Every single "don't stand in the fire" fail in history.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
Riggswolfe
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Reply #359 on: May 31, 2012, 08:43:58 AM

I think they're going to discover that the hardcore geeks want those numbers. I predict early whining in beta will center on cast bars as well as the lack of numbers and/or a combat log. Also, they'll want the gear score on their armor so they can begin their number crunching.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Paelos
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Reply #360 on: May 31, 2012, 08:52:33 AM

Thing is, I can't really blame them anymore. I used to believe that hiding things the numbers from people was better. SWTOR showed me that it doesn't matter when the designers don't even know how the game is supposed to work.

You can't pretend that it's not about numbers when the entire game is based on them. In a toolbar game, where skill is reduced to simple reactions, trying to convince me that it's not about numbers and not about rotations is frankly silly. I can make the argument it's very much NOT about the numbers in Skyrim, even though the game has a large portion of them, because the combat is so radically different.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
LC
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Reply #361 on: May 31, 2012, 11:24:00 AM

Can you please share your crystal ball with me?  I have some unanswered questions of my own!

No crystal ball involved. I have the psychic ability to see through bullshit and hype.
Phred
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Reply #362 on: May 31, 2012, 11:44:47 AM

Can you please share your crystal ball with me?  I have some unanswered questions of my own!

No crystal ball involved. I have the psychic ability to see through bullshit and hype.

Didn't keep you from joining Bob.
LC
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Reply #363 on: May 31, 2012, 11:59:09 AM

Didn't keep you from joining Bob.

I joined as part of a merger. I didn't like the idea, and didn't stay very long.
Lantyssa
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Reply #364 on: May 31, 2012, 01:06:21 PM

Didn't you buy Darkfall and other such wondrous games? awesome, for real

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
WayAbvPar
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Reply #365 on: May 31, 2012, 01:38:04 PM

Darkfall had some promise. Just way too much to fix for a little dev studio.

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

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Libertarians make fun of everyone because they can't see beyond the event horizons of their own assholes Surlyboi
Capitalist Swine
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Reply #366 on: May 31, 2012, 03:19:40 PM

The reason the game is a probably train-wreck is they aren't really innovating combat. They are slapping a new coat of paint on the old rules.

The first thing players will bitch about will be the lack of cast bars. The idea that players want visual effects to dictate action only works when you control the action from a single focal point of your screen. When action is controlled via an action bar, instead of mouse clicking, you are putting those two methods at odds. You eye must be drawn both to the actions and to the activity on the screen. This creates a schism in the playerbase, because some people can handle that transition and some can't. See: Every single "don't stand in the fire" fail in history.

I think the only players that will bitch will be those from WoW.  In fact, I hope they bitch, moan, and never play TES:O, because they're the sort of trash I don't want to share my time, energy, and game play with.
WayAbvPar
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Reply #367 on: May 31, 2012, 03:57:43 PM

 swamp poop

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

Always wear clean underwear because you never know when a Tory Government is going to fuck you.- Ironwood

Libertarians make fun of everyone because they can't see beyond the event horizons of their own assholes Surlyboi
Draegan
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Reply #368 on: May 31, 2012, 04:10:24 PM

Oh, you're one of those fuckwits.

Also WAP, you're not allowed to  swamp poop on the same page you wrote:

Darkfall had some promise.
WayAbvPar
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Reply #369 on: May 31, 2012, 04:22:22 PM

It did. Sandbox-y world, skill-based advancement, useful crafting, open PvP, ownership of cities, etc. It was just crippled by its reputation as a hardcore PvP game and the facemeltingly long and arduous grind to usefulness. I would absolutely play a sequel (or Darkfall 2010*, which is supposed to be a complete overhaul and is, as you might infer from the name, over 2 years late).

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

Always wear clean underwear because you never know when a Tory Government is going to fuck you.- Ironwood

Libertarians make fun of everyone because they can't see beyond the event horizons of their own assholes Surlyboi
Rendakor
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Reply #370 on: May 31, 2012, 05:49:05 PM

I think the only players that will bitch will be those from WoW.  In fact, I hope they bitch, moan, and never play TES:O, because they're the sort of trash I don't want to share my time, energy, and game play with.
And fucktards like you that despise the only success in the entire industry are the sort I don't want to share my time, energy, and forums with.

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blackwulf
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Reply #371 on: May 31, 2012, 06:34:14 PM

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/podcasts/archive/2012/05/31/special-edition-podcast-the-elder-scrolls-online.aspx

Podcast with Firor and Sage - answering questions from community.  Some interesting stuff, but a lot of repeat info if you have been paying attention up to now.
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Reply #372 on: May 31, 2012, 07:33:30 PM

I think they're going to discover that the hardcore geeks want those numbers. I predict early whining in beta will center on cast bars as well as the lack of numbers and/or a combat log. Also, they'll want the gear score on their armor so they can begin their number crunching.

Broken record that I am on the title, but CoH tried for a long time to hide the numbers. Players bitched incessantly, reverse engineered the numbers, made assumptions about how things worked and generally unhid the numbers as much as they could.

They also uncovered systems that weren't working correctly that can only be seen when you understand how the numbers should work.

Plus if you don't show the numbers, then you have to use placeholders to describe what it is doing, like "weak" hold or "superior" damage. And then work out if those are referencing in absolute (i.e. superior damage is the best type of damage across all classes / archetypes) or relative (i.e. the superior damage of a Controller is less than the High damage of a Blaster) terms.

On the other hand, CoH unhid the numbers at some point, the math nerds cheered, business continued as usual. So a lot of work to unhide them for very little pay off.

Ingmar
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Reply #373 on: May 31, 2012, 08:19:19 PM

Hiding the numbers on powers is also something that DAOC did and Firor's fingerprints are on that. It was a pretty dumb system, that was for example largely responsible for the fact that it took forever for the doublefrost math bug to be discovered.

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Fordel
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Reply #374 on: June 01, 2012, 12:06:43 AM

Yea... "bug".  why so serious?

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Paelos
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Reply #375 on: June 01, 2012, 06:19:35 AM

I think the only players that will bitch will be those from WoW.  In fact, I hope they bitch, moan, and never play TES:O, because they're the sort of trash I don't want to share my time, energy, and game play with.

While I do have an open disdain for a large portion of the WoW community, the SWTOR community was no better. Neither was the WAR community.

Because you have a toolbar based MMO that revolves around gearing and levels, just like all the other ones I listed, you won't get a magical united community. You will get the same shit you always get.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
tgr
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Reply #376 on: June 01, 2012, 06:23:36 AM

Because you have a toolbar based MMO that revolves around gearing and levels, just like all the other ones I listed, you won't get a magical united community. You will get the same shit you always get.
You mean this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtvIYRrgZ04

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.
Lantyssa
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Reply #377 on: June 01, 2012, 06:31:29 AM

They also uncovered systems that weren't working correctly that can only be seen when you understand how the numbers should work.
There are a lot of math geeks out there.  They're bound to reverse engineer things if they're invested enough.  (See my ever-popular example of SWG's incorrect tissue coefficients.)

I do like how CoH chose to do their numbers.  It's there if you want to dig into it, but it's not in-your-face.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Draegan
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Reply #378 on: June 01, 2012, 06:39:45 AM

Jesus Christ: http://imgur.com/a/CjsrU Yes please, lets paint an apartment building with a TESO advertisement... by hand.

blackwulf
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Reply #379 on: June 01, 2012, 08:11:42 AM

Jesus Christ: http://imgur.com/a/CjsrU Yes please, lets paint an apartment building with a TESO advertisement... by hand.

Yeah, I don't think they are fucking around...
HaemishM
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Reply #380 on: June 01, 2012, 08:24:11 AM

WTF? Why would you do that, number 1? Number 2, did I miss a memo that this is releasing next month or something? Because if it's not, that's WAY TOO EARLY to be MarketJizzing all over the side of a building.

Paelos
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Reply #381 on: June 01, 2012, 08:33:18 AM

My guess is that it's so abnormal they are hoping it will make National news?

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Scold
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Reply #382 on: June 01, 2012, 09:34:21 AM

WTF? Why would you do that, number 1? Number 2, did I miss a memo that this is releasing next month or something? Because if it's not, that's WAY TOO EARLY to be MarketJizzing all over the side of a building.

I haven't followed it closely, is there some government funding going into development? This reminds me of something 38 Studios would have done, where they were forced to hire too quickly in order to meet government targets (because the government wants you to be a jerb creator) as a condition of their loans, which in turn means a fully staffed marketing department before you actually need one, which in turn leads to shit like this.
Fabricated
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Reply #383 on: June 01, 2012, 09:59:19 AM

Lookit that NOSE.

"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
Lantyssa
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Reply #384 on: June 01, 2012, 10:29:02 AM

I can't.  She also has Prince Charles ears.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
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