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Author Topic: Dr. Who  (Read 624494 times)
Simond
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Reply #1505 on: December 26, 2013, 11:12:12 AM

I still think that "This is the end...wait, why am I regenerating?" would have been a better way to do it but it was pretty obvious since the 50th that the Time Lords were always going to give the Doc more regenerations if needed because he's the only one that a) knows they're not dead and b) could bring them all back.

And it's not like "Time Lords can give a new cycle" was made up from whole cloth either - it's been thrown about for literally decades now.

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Sir T
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Reply #1506 on: December 26, 2013, 11:23:45 AM

Hell, the Master has been technically out of regenerations since around the Sixth doctors time. A lot of his storylines after that involved his decaying body trying to steal more regenerations, and then there was Eric "this human body will not last long" Roberts in the McGann TV movie.

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Simond
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Reply #1507 on: December 26, 2013, 11:34:25 AM

Yeah and the Time Lords gave him a new cycle for the Time War, to boot.

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Hayduke
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Reply #1508 on: December 26, 2013, 11:50:09 AM

This was so disappointing.  Especially after the 50th anniversary special.  I don't really care about the regenerations limit at all.  The episode was just dumb.
Ironwood
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Reply #1509 on: December 26, 2013, 01:01:32 PM

Yuuuuup.

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Merusk
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Reply #1510 on: December 26, 2013, 02:48:53 PM

This was so disappointing.  Especially after the 50th anniversary special.  I don't really care about the regenerations limit at all.  The episode was just dumb.

After realizing it was going to be a terrible, "The Doctor gets old and dies" plot, I was hoping for some redemption in the fix or the actual regeneration scene.  We were rewarded with neither.  "Oh hey, here, have a regen. We can send that through but not ourselves/ probes/ whatever else."

Then the regen scene was all of 25 seconds.  Whoopee.


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Simond
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Reply #1511 on: December 27, 2013, 11:03:28 AM

There was the most amazing bit of fanwank in the SA thread today:
So the 11th Doc was actually 13th regeneration.
Therefore that means Tennant was the 12th (and 11th).
Which means that the Metacrisis, half-human hand-Doctor was, oh, what's the phrase? "somewhere between the twelfth and thirteenth incarnation".
(Long-time fans are now going Facepalm pre-emptively)  Ohhhhh, I see.

So, picture it: Trapped in a parallel universe, no TARDIS, bitterly staring down his final death, outliving Rose...it might drive a person to extremes. Maybe even enough to come up with a plan so desperate he had to stop being the Doctor to carry it out, and chose a new title instead.

Like, say, the Valeyard.  awesome, for real

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MahrinSkel
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Reply #1512 on: December 27, 2013, 07:16:17 PM

There's also the daughter/clone running around out there.

--Dave

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Sir T
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Reply #1513 on: December 27, 2013, 08:48:58 PM

And Romana, who stayed in another pocket universe and so is technically not in the Universe for the Doc to feel that she is there, and who probably was not involved in the war either.

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palmer_eldritch
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Reply #1514 on: December 28, 2013, 06:30:05 AM

All the trapped Time Lords are able to return to the universe at any point in time or space of their choosing and the only thing stopping them is they're waiting for the Doctor to tell them it's a good moment. So all that stuff about Romana seems a bit moot now, as does all that moping around the Doctor did from 2005 to 2010.
eldaec
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Reply #1515 on: December 28, 2013, 03:31:44 PM

Holy shit that was bad.

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Khaldun
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Reply #1516 on: December 28, 2013, 04:07:21 PM

I am willing to defend some of Moffat's general writing and some of his specific scripts but not that one. Bad. Practically a instructional manual on the consequences of writing yourself into a corner--the desperate need to tidy up all the dangling plot lines and pretend that there had been something remotely like an idea behind them was horribly destructive to any semblance of storytelling.
Sir T
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Reply #1517 on: December 28, 2013, 11:07:52 PM

All the trapped Time Lords are able to return to the universe at any point in time or space of their choosing and the only thing stopping them is they're waiting for the Doctor to tell them it's a good moment. So all that stuff about Romana seems a bit moot now, as does all that moping around the Doctor did from 2005 to 2010.

Ok. You win. *Slits wrists*

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Special J
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Reply #1518 on: December 29, 2013, 08:33:29 PM

What a completely underwhelming and awful way of resolving the regen problem.  I expected little and got less.

Yeah, felt the same. I think I would have preferred having no answer. Have Smith go in thinking it was the end and *poof* Peter Capaldi goes "well, this is a surprise."

Really liked the 50th special, but this was just flat. Disappointed

Edit: is it wrong that after one episode I liked Handles more than most of the Nuwho companions?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 08:50:34 PM by Special J »
Raguel
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Reply #1519 on: December 29, 2013, 09:03:38 PM

I liked Handles as well.

I was surprised there was no lizard lady in this one.

I didn't hate it as much as you lot. I still question the rationale of Church splinter group
Does every Who actor write their last lines or something?
Bunk
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Reply #1520 on: December 30, 2013, 06:45:38 AM

All the trapped Time Lords are able to return to the universe at any point in time or space of their choosing and the only thing stopping them is they're waiting for the Doctor to tell them it's a good moment. So all that stuff about Romana seems a bit moot now, as does all that moping around the Doctor did from 2005 to 2010.

I don't want to defend this episode (it was bad on many levels) but I had the impression that they needed that crack between universes to return, and didn't really get to choose where it appeared. Yea sure, I'll go with that.

For some reason it ticked me off that he managed to add another 300 plus years to the doctor's life in one episode. I won't even get in to the planet that apparently had one town on its surface and vegetation that grew with six minutes of sunlight per day.

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Ironwood
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Reply #1521 on: December 30, 2013, 07:30:18 AM

You know, if you'd just listen to Moffat you'd at least be able to make your minds up properly.

He's said it again and again :  Dr Who is a Fairy Tale to him.  A Fairy Tale.  The trees grow because of fucking magic.  He always wins because of fucking magic.  He can recreated universes because of fucking magic and things always work out right on time because of fucking magic.

I'm not interested in that type of Dr Who and won't ever be interested in that type of Dr Who.

It makes it so hard to critique when the guy writing utter shite can say 'A Wizard Did It' with no irony whatsoever.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Tmon
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Reply #1522 on: December 30, 2013, 11:19:02 AM

I've said it before but the root of the problem for me is that instead of the Dr. having adventures they decided that he should have a story.  When an arc lasted for 2-4 episodes there wasn't as much chance of getting painted into a corner since you didn't have to keep things as tightly organized.  Also the way they resolved the max number of regens was complete bullshit.  Having him discover that it was possible to regen again might have made a good mystery for him to explore.  In fact he could have found out that the number of regens was somehow tied to the existence of Galllifrey in this universe and that as long as it was elsewhere he was able to break the limit.  It would also give him a nice little moral dilemma to whine about, now that the time war has been completely neutered.
eldaec
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Reply #1523 on: December 30, 2013, 01:51:00 PM

No, this one was just bad.

Even judged as a fairy tale and even allowing for how making everything about the doctor shrinks the universe and makes it less interesting... It was still really bad television.

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Setanta
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Reply #1524 on: December 30, 2013, 01:51:26 PM

I have a feeling that's what made my childhood Dr Who so much fun (growing up in the 70s, special effects in the series were considered cool). They were adventures by the Doctor and his companions and his character developed from the adventures. I liked what was done with the Eccleston reboot and the Tennent continuation and liked Moffat writing one or two episodes (Dr dances etc). After that when he took the helm from Davies he just seems to have gone full retard - he should go work for Blizzard :D

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Pennilenko
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Reply #1525 on: December 30, 2013, 05:25:52 PM

I have a feeling that's what made my childhood Dr Who so much fun (growing up in the 70s, special effects in the series were considered cool). They were adventures by the Doctor and his companions and his character developed from the adventures. I liked what was done with the Eccleston reboot and the Tennent continuation and liked Moffat writing one or two episodes (Dr dances etc). After that when he took the helm from Davies he just seems to have gone full retard - he should go work for Blizzard :D

Sadly enough Moffat is ten times the writter that Metzen is.

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Hayduke
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Reply #1526 on: December 30, 2013, 05:32:33 PM

I don't mind the arcs.  I just hate the live action Studio Ghibli feel they're going for.  Where there's no rules so anything's possible.  Imo if there's no rules, there's no struggle.  At least present a pretense that your show has consequences.

But even in that context this episode was really lazy.  Seeing him on the top of that tower waving his arms about reminded me of Mickey Mouse in Fantasia.
Threash
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Reply #1527 on: December 30, 2013, 06:11:22 PM

I've said it before but the root of the problem for me is that instead of the Dr. having adventures they decided that he should have a story.  When an arc lasted for 2-4 episodes there wasn't as much chance of getting painted into a corner since you didn't have to keep things as tightly organized.  Also the way they resolved the max number of regens was complete bullshit.  Having him discover that it was possible to regen again might have made a good mystery for him to explore.  In fact he could have found out that the number of regens was somehow tied to the existence of Galllifrey in this universe and that as long as it was elsewhere he was able to break the limit.  It would also give him a nice little moral dilemma to whine about, now that the time war has been completely neutered.

Why would he need to discover something he already knew? The whole running out of regens thing was never actually a "thing", a time lord getting a new set of regenerations has already happened with the Master.

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sickrubik
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Reply #1528 on: December 31, 2013, 10:47:10 AM

We have people from all over. Is the second half of Season 7 available for streaming ANYWHERE in the world? It's apparently not even on the BBC's iplayer even. This is starting to get a little silly, given how much we pay for satellite/hulu/amazon/etc.

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Merusk
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Reply #1529 on: December 31, 2013, 10:53:01 AM

We have people from all over. Is the second half of Season 7 available for streaming ANYWHERE in the world? It's apparently not even on the BBC's iplayer even. This is starting to get a little silly, given how much we pay for satellite/hulu/amazon/etc.

It appears to be on Amazon Prime.

1. The Bells of Saint John [HD]        March 30, 2013    
2. The Rings of Akhaten [HD]        April 6, 2013    
3. Cold War [HD]        April 13, 2013
4. Hide [HD]        April 20, 2013
5. Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS [HD]        April 27, 2013
6. The Crimson Horror [HD]        May 4, 2013
7. Nightmare in Silver [HD]        May 11, 2013
8. The Name of The Doctor [HD]        May 18, 2013

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Threash
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Reply #1530 on: December 31, 2013, 11:18:15 AM

We have people from all over. Is the second half of Season 7 available for streaming ANYWHERE in the world? It's apparently not even on the BBC's iplayer even. This is starting to get a little silly, given how much we pay for satellite/hulu/amazon/etc.

I've never seen anything but NuWho, but anyone should know better than to complain about something in a show with 50 years of history without at least looking it up first.

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Ironwood
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Reply #1531 on: December 31, 2013, 11:37:36 AM

Whut ?

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sickrubik
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Reply #1532 on: December 31, 2013, 11:44:06 AM

We have people from all over. Is the second half of Season 7 available for streaming ANYWHERE in the world? It's apparently not even on the BBC's iplayer even. This is starting to get a little silly, given how much we pay for satellite/hulu/amazon/etc.

It appears to be on Amazon Prime.

1. The Bells of Saint John [HD]        March 30, 2013    
2. The Rings of Akhaten [HD]        April 6, 2013    
3. Cold War [HD]        April 13, 2013
4. Hide [HD]        April 20, 2013
5. Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS [HD]        April 27, 2013
6. The Crimson Horror [HD]        May 4, 2013
7. Nightmare in Silver [HD]        May 11, 2013
8. The Name of The Doctor [HD]        May 18, 2013

For purchase.

We have people from all over. Is the second half of Season 7 available for streaming ANYWHERE in the world? It's apparently not even on the BBC's iplayer even. This is starting to get a little silly, given how much we pay for satellite/hulu/amazon/etc.

I've never seen anything but NuWho, but anyone should know better than to complain about something in a show with 50 years of history without at least looking it up first.

What.

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Merusk
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Reply #1533 on: December 31, 2013, 12:36:52 PM

For purchase.

Ah, I see.  No, don't expect to see that for another 6-9 months at least.  The first half isn't even on Netflix yet.  The new thing is to pay to be sure that it doesn't get free streams on your competitors.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
sickrubik
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Reply #1534 on: December 31, 2013, 12:42:32 PM

For purchase.

The first half isn't even on Netflix yet.

It's on Hulu and Amazon Prime. But, the last episode of Season 7 was in May. It's now almost 2014. If it's 6-9 months away that puts it a year away form being streamed anywhere? That's a flawed model. Most of the delay in streaming (movies, etc) is 30 days. 7 part 2 was released in September.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2013, 12:46:06 PM by sickrubik »

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HaemishM
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Reply #1535 on: January 01, 2014, 10:36:19 AM

I must admit, I got a little sentimental when Matt Smith did his farewell speech. It was horribly meta in that it really was Matt Smith giving a farewell speech instead of the Doctor, but still. There were parts of it I liked - mostly the character interactions, which is the only thing Moffat ever gets right.

But yes, as soon as we saw old doddering Doctor, I shouted at the TV. We've seen him age 200 years in one episode and not look one jot different. But if the voiceover is to be believed, it was 300 years and suddenly he's about to turn into dust? Why? The Doctor has never ever in the fucking history of the show AGED naturally. Is that something Time Lords do on their 12th regen? Were they trying to tie it back? And the whole "lend a brother a regen" thing - REALLY LAZY. Why not actually bring back Gallifrey (as a writer)? Make things complicated. Give us some Time Lord stories. Instead, we will continue to have stories where the Doctor is essentially the Cat in the Goddamn Hat. Pop in, fuck shit up, fix it, move on.

Actors and acting as good as has been accomplished in Moffat's reign really fucking deserve writing that is complete and utter shit. I can't even keep the fucking mythology in head straight. The Silence is part of the Church? Did I miss that? Probably because the Silence was FUCKSTUPID. The absolute refusal to bother with coherent continuity is worse than Marvel and DC Comics put together.

Ironwood
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Reply #1536 on: January 01, 2014, 12:00:45 PM

A Wizard Did It.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Merusk
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Reply #1537 on: January 01, 2014, 12:16:18 PM

 They prefer the term "Chronomancer," thank you.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #1538 on: January 01, 2014, 04:04:21 PM

I must admit, I got a little sentimental when Matt Smith did his farewell speech. It was horribly meta in that it really was Matt Smith giving a farewell speech instead of the Doctor, but still. There were parts of it I liked - mostly the character interactions, which is the only thing Moffat ever gets right.

But yes, as soon as we saw old doddering Doctor, I shouted at the TV. We've seen him age 200 years in one episode and not look one jot different. But if the voiceover is to be believed, it was 300 years and suddenly he's about to turn into dust? Why? The Doctor has never ever in the fucking history of the show AGED naturally. Is that something Time Lords do on their 12th regen? Were they trying to tie it back? And the whole "lend a brother a regen" thing - REALLY LAZY. Why not actually bring back Gallifrey (as a writer)? Make things complicated. Give us some Time Lord stories. Instead, we will continue to have stories where the Doctor is essentially the Cat in the Goddamn Hat. Pop in, fuck shit up, fix it, move on.

Actors and acting as good as has been accomplished in Moffat's reign really fucking deserve writing that is complete and utter shit. I can't even keep the fucking mythology in head straight. The Silence is part of the Church? Did I miss that? Probably because the Silence was FUCKSTUPID. The absolute refusal to bother with coherent continuity is worse than Marvel and DC Comics put together.
It felt like it was a season's worth of loose-end tying compressed into a single episode.  Admittedly, the 10th Doctor did the same, but those were personal loose ends, not major causality knots blithely handwaved.

I didn't notice the meta on the farewell speech the first time, but when I re-watched it was obvious (he even addresses the fourth wall, looks directly into the camera but with his eyes at enough of an angle to his face I didn't see it the first time).  That part was well done.

I think Moffat just didn't like spending so much of the 11th Doctor's run tying up loose ends and didn't want to leave any new ones.  But it felt sloppy, they would have been better off just left dangling.

--Dave

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Simond
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Reply #1539 on: January 01, 2014, 04:43:08 PM

I still think Moffat is going to do one series with Capaldi then quit. He's tying up loose ends because he wants to make sure all his Chekov's Guns are fired by the time he's done.

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
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