A Prescient Nintendo Quote And Relevant Commentary

[Triforcer]

So my brother really really really wants Mario Kart for the Wii, but despite its amazing mediocrity it is completely sold out everywhere forever I guess. My dumbshit friend who works at Best Buy decided to call my brother and let him know that they got some in today. 4 copies, and no in-store pickup so I can just buy the shit on the phone or online and get it later. My brother calls me (Note: I live in Indiana, my brother is currently in California) and matter of factly tells me to go buy it. Sorry Charlie, I just pulled in the fucking driveway after getting off work, you get to live without your shitty game.

I hung up.

Touching.  That should be a Saturday Evening Post cover 

[Azazel]

Some of us have, like, jobs and shit and are doing just fine with Mario Galaxy, Zelda, Smash Bros and Lego right now because we haven't finished those damn things.

I don't care about Mario, Zelda, Smash Bros or Samus. I have Lego on a system that uses a real controller.

Poor lonely, Wii....

[Margalis]

Someone doesn't care about Mario, Zelda or Metroid but cares about Lego. My brain just exploded.

[cosapi]

Some of us have, like, jobs and shit and are doing just fine with Mario Galaxy, Zelda, Smash Bros and Lego right now because we haven't finished those damn things.

And some of us didn't purchase those games because we have no interest in them, and wanted potential news on anything related to Mother 3, Kid Icarus, Metroid/2D metroid, a new camelot Wii/DS game/rpg, or Matsunos Wii project with monolithsoft.

[schild]

Yes, but Nintendo fans have been grasping at any hope for most of those titles. I don't know if Matsuno has it left in them. They'll never be able to pull off another Metroid like Super Metroid. Mother 3? Rom that shit up when the translation patch comes out. Kid Icarus? It'll be Metroid Primed probably. Either that or bad.

I have Lego on a system that uses a real controller.

This. Not because it's lego, but the real controller thing is pretty much key. There are some Wii games that I'd really really like to play. But so far the only recent one I have played is My Life as a King. But don't think for a moment I liked having the fucking Classic Pad plugged into the Wiimote. Weak, stupid, bad technology.

[Murgos]

So my brother really really really wants Mario Kart for the Wii, but despite its amazing mediocrity it is completely sold out everywhere forever I guess. My dumbshit friend who works at Best Buy decided to call my brother and let him know that they got some in today. 4 copies, and no in-store pickup so I can just buy the shit on the phone or online and get it later. My brother calls me (Note: I live in Indiana, my brother is currently in California) and matter of factly tells me to go buy it. Sorry Charlie, I just pulled in the fucking driveway after getting off work, you get to live without your shitty game.

I hung up.

Yeah, I can see how it would be too much trouble to call your friend at Best Buy and buy it and pick it up tomorrow.  Man, that's a heck of a burden, the gall of some people.

Seriously though, why can't he just order the stupid thing off Amazon or the BB website and wait a couple of days while it's delivered?

[Hawkbit]

Two recent articles caught my eye, at IGN no less, so you know it's true.  lulz

Iwata Apologizes for Bad E3
http://wii.ign.com/articles/892/892854p1.html

Wii Storage Solution Urgent, Says Nintendo
http://wii.ign.com/articles/893/893306p1.html

[dusematic]

Nintendo can win my heart back if at the Tokyo show they reveal some crap I'm interested in.  I can understand confusion about "who E3 is for."  Is it for casual gamer mass media or hardcore types? 

[Sairon]

Nintendo can win my heart back if at the Tokyo show they reveal some crap I'm interested in.  I can understand confusion about "who E3 is for."  Is it for casual gamer mass media or hardcore types? 

Well, the hardcores are certainly the ones looking, does the causal gamer even know what E3 is?

[Margalis]

E3 is one of the few things the mainstream media reporters go to.

[schild]

E3 is one of the few things the mainstream media reporters go to.

Bzzzzzzzzt - Toy Fair, CES, Comic Con - mainstream reporters only go to E3 for the parties, just like everyone else.

[Big Gulp]

I can understand wanting to give the press access to the games, so do that on Thursday and Friday.  Turn the weekend over to the general public and you've got a successful, worthwhile show.

What's so hard about this?

[schild]

Allowing the public in is the reason E3 turned into a terrible, not-worthwhile show. Hell, just letting Gamestop employees in was enough to do that.

[Big Gulp]

Allowing the public in is the reason E3 turned into a terrible, not-worthwhile show. Hell, just letting Gamestop employees in was enough to do that.

That's why you have seperate days for the press and general public.  Hell, Leipzig and TGS pull it off, why can't E3?

[schild]

E3 was never, ever, ever about the public. That's sorta the point. It was the Big One that wasn't for them. The public has more than enough shows they can go to. E3 was glitz, glamour, and awesomeness for the press and no one else. That's what it was raised as. And it grew up to be a monster. It's not surprising it blew up on itself. The new one is just a joke. In general, conventions are fundamentally flawed. Game development times get increased to cater to them. It's a mess.

[Big Gulp]

E3 was never, ever, ever about the public. That's sorta the point. It was the Big One that wasn't for them. The public has more than enough shows they can go to. E3 was glitz, glamour, and awesomeness for the press and no one else. That's what it was raised as. And it grew up to be a monster. It's not surprising it blew up on itself. The new one is just a joke. In general, conventions are fundamentally flawed. Game development times get increased to cater to them. It's a mess.

Well, that's a debate on whether or not it's necessary, and I'd agree that a convention isn't.  However, the industry seems schizophrenic about it, and appear to want to have something to show.  So either suck it up and pull out the stops or just put a stake in the damned thing.  This half measure crap isn't the way to go.

[dusematic]

It's good for the industry as a whole to have a convention big enough (and crazy enough) to get people talking. The old E3 seemed great for industry wide publicity, and bad for journalists trying to score info about games.  The new E3 is the opposite, no? 

[schild]

It's good for the industry as a whole to have a convention big enough (and crazy enough) to get people talking. The old E3 seemed great for industry wide publicity, and bad for journalists trying to score info about games.  The new E3 is the opposite, no? 

The New E3 doesn't need press since everything is streamed in it's entirety by G4 TV. Me Thinks some big Press Outlets are behind the ruining of E3. Tin-Foil Hat, etc. At the same time, the old E3 was great a few years back, it wasn't until recently that it went to hell and fast.

[Azazel]

Someone doesn't care about Mario, Zelda or Metroid but cares about Lego. My brain just exploded.

Yeah, sorry. My interest in Mario games is limited to the various spin-offs (Mario Party/Kart/Golf) and I played exactly one (and a half) Zelda games I gave a shit about. Zelda 3 on SNES and then years later I half-played the port on GBA when I went on holiday. Was never terribly interested in 2-d platformers, and not terribly interested in 3-d platformers. Sorry.

Played the first N64 Zelda till I put it down for awhile then couldn't remember what to do when I picked it up again (so put it down forever) and had no interest in Ocarina of Time or whichever the followups were. Rented the Zelda for Wii and couldn't stand the long, forced, shitty JRPG exposition, so I got as far as riding the horde in circles and being told I cant leave fucktard village tillI talk to various fucktards before turning it off to return to the video library.

Never played Metroid to any extent or cared about the franchise, and using the Wiimote for FPS-ish action can go fuck a dog moreso that using a Gamepad. I bought Mario Strikers, I played it with a friend for 10 minutes before we turned it off and played something else instead. That was my only gaming session so far with that particularly expensive frisbee/drink coaster.


I own a Wii. I don't hate Nintendo, but the controls are FAIL for traditional games, lightgun shooters and pretty much anything that's not Mario Party or waving the Wiimote around to play Golf or Bowling. Haven't tried Maro Kart yet. Mario Soccer's shittiness made me very dubious about anything new on that system.


So yeah, I'm the traditional gamer, and I'm not buying much for the Wii. I'll play my traditional games with traditional controllers.
Casual-gamer-grandma isn't interested in those games anyway, so where are the fucking interesting games that use the Wiimote as something unique instead of tacked-on waggle bullshit? She'll buy them, and I might, too. If they ever happen.

[ahoythematey]

Not trying to appear authoritative here, but I would hardly call you a traditional gamer when you say you aren't interested in the 2d platformers.  That's kind of a starting point for most traditional gamers.

I would say you are more of a picky gamer.

[HaemishM]

Mario Soccer's shittiness made me very dubious about anything new on that system.

My suggestion is sell the system then. If you thought Mario Soccer was shitty, nothing is going to be good enough for you on the system.

So yeah, I'm the traditional gamer, and I'm not buying much for the Wii. I'll play my traditional games with traditional controllers.
Casual-gamer-grandma isn't interested in those games anyway, so where are the fucking interesting games that use the Wiimote as something unique instead of tacked-on waggle bullshit? She'll buy them, and I might, too. If they ever happen.

I will agree with you about the lack of interesting games using the Wiimote as more than tacked-on waggle. There've been entirely too many of those type of games. Though I would disagree with you on some of the games. I think the FPS games work pretty damn well on the system when they aren't shovelware shit like Fary Cry. For a system with such opportunities for unique control interfaces, a lot of assholes aren't building those interfaces for the Wiimote. Lazy developers produce lazy games. Film at 11.

[Big Gulp]

Not trying to appear authoritative here, but I would hardly call you a traditional gamer when you say you aren't interested in the 2d platformers.  That's kind of a starting point for most traditional gamers.

I would say you are more of a picky gamer.

"Traditional gamers" in the modern sense don't really play platformers anymore.  Those of us who grew up on Mario and Megaman as our mothers milk may feel differently, but the market has changed, and first/third person action is now "traditional".

[ahoythematey]

For some reason that really depresses me.

[schild]

"Traditional gamers" in the modern sense don't really play platformers anymore.  Those of us who grew up on Mario and Megaman as our mothers milk may feel differently, but the market has changed, and first/third person action is now "traditional".

Megaman Network Transmission, Shadow of the Colossus, Uncharted? These are platformers. They are some of the best games from the previous and current generation. Network Transmission is highly underrated (because fucking no one played it! and the first stage is gruesomely hard). First/Third isn't traditional so much as it's just what's selling now. Look at XBLA and PSN, platformers are still there and more are coming. Basically, you just have to look for them. But traditional implies they have some age, first and third ps being the norm on consoles - well, they've been around since late N64 days. Even then, they didn't come into their own until the xbox.

[Big Gulp]

Megaman Network Transmission, Shadow of the Colossus, Uncharted? These are platformers.

They also don't sell at anywhere near the level of Halo, Gears of War, or SOCOM.  That was kind of my point.

[schild]

Megaman Network Transmission, Shadow of the Colossus, Uncharted? These are platformers.

They also don't sell at anywhere near the level of Halo, Gears of War, or SOCOM.  That was kind of my point.

Sales don't make something traditional.

[schild]

I should really elaborate. What I mean is, if you asked a mouthbreathing 14 year old Halo player what traditional was, I don't even think he'd understand the word. But traditional is different in every community. That said, even the youngest communities probably look fondly upon gameplay style like SMB3/4. If they were introduced to them at all. Market-wise, traditional doesn't exist, whatever can be sold is what will be put out there. Or whatever they _think_ can be sold will be.

Look at Portal, that's a platformer, no 2 ways about it. Hardly traditional but at the same time completely built upon traditional concepts. That said, this is a community of 18+ folks, I imagine saying an FPS is a traditional gameplay type isn't exactly the right direction you want to go in to make a point. We were weened, as you said, on that other stuff. It's the stuff that Made games Work for us. Yes, the market has shifted. But that doesn't change what the Ataris, Nintendos, and Segas of the world raised us on and how even the newest platformer gives us pangs of nostalgia.

[Margalis]

Someone calling themselves a "traditional" gamer then saying they have no interest in any of the traditional franchises or gameplay styles is a contradiction in terms.

One thing that plagues these kinds of discussions is the lack of good nomenclature.

[schild]

Mario, Zelda, and Metroid aren't traditional franchises anymore though. They've been synthesized and modulated to the point of being bastards of their former selves. None of the offerings since Link to the Past (OoT depending on who you talk to), Super Metroid and Mario 3 (or World depending on who you talk to) have been remotely traditional. And, imo, they've been trash, but you know me.

[Margalis]

He said he wasn't interested in any Mario, Zelda or Metroid, or 2d or 3d platforming. That also rules out Pitfall, Jungle Hunt, Strider, Mega Man, etc etc.

I'm not going to split hairs on what it means to be a "traditional" gamer since I'm not the one who brought it into the discussion but if you don't like traditional franchises or play styles it doesn't make much sense to me.

[Hawkbit]

Sometimes I think the Wii was a mistake.  I don't have a ton of cash to drop on systems and I chose one I thought the family would enjoy.  The wife plays some GH and my daughter (almost 4yrs) plays some mariokart, but other than that it's been sadly abandoned.  I don't have the heart to sell it because they still play it occasionally, but I can't help but want to play some of the PS3 games out there. 

Hopefully I can get my daughter into Animal Crossing when it comes out so I actually feel like it was a worthwhile purchase. 

[naum]

I love my Wii but there just are not enough decent games for it.

Plenty of games, but most of them are half ass ports that really don't take advantage of the unique controller.

I reckon that's to be expected for a novel approach to game controllers. But it's been almost 2 years now, you'd think there would be more groovy implementations that took advantage of such a richer control paradigm — so much more is possible and the surface has only been scratched — almost anything is more intuitive with a pointer than with a 20+ year old button/joystick setup.

Still, it's the most social of the console systems and the only time my Wii gets used anymore is when kids come over. It also started collecting dust after Mrs. Naum threw out her back Wii bowling…

[UnSub]

He said he wasn't interested in any Mario, Zelda or Metroid, or 2d or 3d platforming. That also rules out Pitfall, Jungle Hunt, Strider, Mega Man, etc etc.

I'm not going to split hairs on what it means to be a "traditional" gamer since I'm not the one who brought it into the discussion but if you don't like traditional franchises or play styles it doesn't make much sense to me.

Arguably RPGs and wargames are more 'traditional' than 2D platforming since those genres held sway before graphics caught up.

In general, gamers have a lousy sense of history. For most people, gaming started when they picked up their first controller, be it an Activision or a wireless Xbox 360 one. This isn't helped by all games becoming outdated within about 3 years of their release.

[Azazel]

Not trying to appear authoritative here, but I would hardly call you a traditional gamer when you say you aren't interested in the 2d platformers.  That's kind of a starting point for most traditional gamers.

I've been gaming for a long time. Potentially since before you (or Margalis for that matter) were born. Played my older brothers' pong machines, and things like Atari and Vic 20 at friends, since we didn't have enough money to buy them till I got my C64 for Christmas when I was around 13, and then bought everything else myself. Commodore 64>Amiga>SNES>MD>3DO>N64>PS1>Saturn>PC>GBA>DC>PS2>GC>360. 2D platforming isn't something I ever particularly enjoyed once I got past the Amiga days. Not liking one genre very much doesn't negate everything else. Someone else might not like shooting games but love platformers. "Traditional" doesn't imply a neccesary love of all games in all genres.

I don't mind a little bit of your Jak and Daxter/Ratchet and Clank type games, but they're not console selling points for me. Lots of games have platform elements in them, like the Lego Star Wars/Indy games, or The Simpsons Game, or Tomb Raider, etc, or even 2-d fighters but they're different enough to keep me interested. My path to today was via the Amiga as the key platform. I didn't play 8-bit Mario, or Megaman, or Kid Icarus, or the pre Link to the Past Zeldas  because I was playing Populus, Sim City, Kick Off/Sensible Soccer, Cannon Fodder, Chaos Engine, Perfect General, Sid Meier's Pirates!, Syndicate, etc, instead. Even then I didn't get into the games like Prince of Persia or Another World (aka Out of This World).

My suggestion is sell the system then. If you thought Mario Soccer was shitty, nothing is going to be good enough for you on the system.

I will agree with you about the lack of interesting games using the Wiimote as more than tacked-on waggle. There've been entirely too many of those type of games. Though I would disagree with you on some of the games. I think the FPS games work pretty damn well on the system when they aren't shovelware shit like Fary Cry. For a system with such opportunities for unique control interfaces, a lot of assholes aren't building those interfaces for the Wiimote. Lazy developers produce lazy games. Film at 11.

The Wiimote can't handle my big kickass TV. Sorry, that's Nintendo's fault for poor design. Unfortunately this makes FPS games suck as bad as light gun games. Taking a choice between the TV and the Wii, the Wii loses. IF I weren't already trained in the M&KB form of FPS controls, I might be able to get into Wii FPS. I tried Red Steel and MoH and both failed the "can I be arsed with this?" test. This was before the 46" HD LCD. Back with the 68cm CRT when the Wiimote showed some accuracy to the screen. So c'est la vie.

Yeah, I felt Mario Strikers was shitty. It felt too random and pinbally. Sorry if this offends you. The Wii's not worth selling as a second-hand machine. None of them are. I'll keep it for the odd bit of Sports Bowling, Mario Partying, and GameCubing.

Someone calling themselves a "traditional" gamer then saying they have no interest in any of the traditional franchises or gameplay styles is a contradiction in terms.
One thing that plagues these kinds of discussions is the lack of good nomenclature.
He said he wasn't interested in any Mario, Zelda or Metroid, or 2d or 3d platforming. That also rules out Pitfall, Jungle Hunt, Strider, Mega Man, etc etc.
I'm not going to split hairs on what it means to be a "traditional" gamer since I'm not the one who brought it into the discussion but if you don't like traditional franchises or play styles it doesn't make much sense to me.

You mean the ones that you personally define as Traditional? Don't like Nintendo's key franchises = can't be a "traditional" gamer? I beg to differ. And where did I discuss "no interest in any" of the other gameplay styles? Did I mention anything about about fighting games or side-scrolling-beatemups or driving games or 2d shooting games or FPS games or 3PS games? When you try putting words in other people's mouths you often turn out to be talking out of your own arse. Like you are here in two seperate posts. Try reading what I wrote, using basic reading comprehension and not extrapolating and going off into your own fantasy-land about what you think I might have meant.
Fuck Mario. He can die in a car fire along with Halo and Madden. Being a traditional gamer doesn't mean you have to like everything that's pumped out.

Mario, Zelda, and Metroid aren't traditional franchises anymore though. They've been synthesized and modulated to the point of being bastards of their former selves. None of the offerings since Link to the Past (OoT depending on who you talk to), Super Metroid and Mario 3 (or World depending on who you talk to) have been remotely traditional. And, imo, they've been trash, but you know me.

See this is the thing. I never played those beloved 8-bit versions of the Ninty franchises, so I have no childhood love for them. I enjoyed/played/completed Link to the Past, and since then I've bought a few (Mario and Zelda on N64) but they didn't hook me well enough to finish either, or buy another, or care about the next incanations.


And by traditional gamer, I'm not playing history games. I'm taking about what's been selling on these boxes for the last 5-10 or so years. The kinds of games that make up most of the PS3/360 library, pretty much don't exist for the most part on the Wii, and those few which do, have shitty waggle controls tacked on badly. Even if I loved Mario and Megaman, I'd rather play them with a 360 controller than the Wiimote, which was my point before the thread went off on a fucking tangent about splitting hairs on a definition. Nintendo chose their control path, now they need to do something interesting with it if they want to sell games.

I now have about 58 360 games and 12 Wii games (including all the gimmicks/packins like Wii Fit, Sport, Play, Brain Training, Link's Crossbow). I've owned the Wii a year longer than I have owned the 360. I post these numbers not for e-peen (cos I know no-one gives a fuck), but to illustrate that if they put out more interesting non-shovelware stuff I would be buying it. Fuck, I'm buying most of their experiments to give them a try, even if I'm not really playing them. Even those are few and far between. Bring on a proper Super Punch-Out, Mario Golf, Lightsaber Game.   

[ahoythematey]

Nobody is disparaging you Azazel, no need to bring a wall of text here.  I have a hard time understanding how a person could not smile wide and have fun with a classic like Super Mario Bros or The Legend of Zelda, regardless of genre preferences, and that is my viewpoint.

I do take umbrage with the idea that we, "like everything that's pumped out," as you put it, and I find it odd how personal you are taking what was really just a spin-off discussion about what traditional games/gamers include or don't include.  You even did a bit of peen-waving with your list-drop at the top of the post, like touting a sad, real-life version of a gamerscore.  Did a dingo steal your baby this morning, or something, to get you riled up so?

If the first games a person plays is what clearly defines their perspective of traditional and matters a great deal, I guess I'll throw my chips in: Chessmaster, King's Quest 3, Secret of Monkey Island(CGA version), Leisure Suit Larry, Marble Madness, Prince of Persia.

So far I think UnSub wins this slapfight.