A Prescient Nintendo Quote And Relevant Commentary

[HaemishM]

Which is why I don't understand the Wii hatred in this thread. Its almost like hardcore gamers feel threatened by a console not pandering to them. Like they would become obsolete and killed by the great casual uprising.

Yes. This. Hardcore gamers are scared shitless that the gaming industry isn't going to cater to them and their vocal minority anymore, and pissed off that the things Ma and Pa Kent desire aren't the same things they desire. Ma and Pa Kent don't play Halo, they play Solitaire and Bridge. Hardcore gamers are afraid their games won't be made anymore because they don't provide as much money as Ma and Pa Kent.

They should be afraid... well, they shouldn't, just like PC gamers shouldn't be afraid of console dominance of the video game market. Both hardcore gamer games and PC games should embrace the niche, because the niche is where the quality is.

EDIT: Also, 3rd party publishers need to stop whining about not being able to make AAA-titles on the Wii, and actually concentrate on making GOOD quality titles for the Wii instead of shovelware shit like Far Cry. Bitching about not making money on the console when the only games you put are so obviously half-assed shovelware is asking for me to tell you to fuck right off.

[Fordel]

What makes me laugh, is the idea that Hardcore gamers are somehow less fickle then the casual masses. 

[HaemishM]

This is true. 

[UnSub]

This fear is already manifest in the descent of The Elder Scrolls from one of the most amazing PC RPGs into a console eye-candy kiddie toy; this fear of the Wii by PS3/360 fans is a rebranded fear of consoles by PC fans.

Plus we can call the Wiitards, which is the funneyz.

I don't hate the Wii. I had a lot of fun playing on a friend's. But I think that the Wii has a great chance of stealing defeat from the jaws of victory because, just like the Gamecube and the N64, Nintendo haven't brought along third party developers for the ride.

Why aren't there third party devs lining up to do Wii titles? A big part of it is designing for a whole new control scheme. Also, few dev studios want to try to make a unique Wii game for a market that, thus far, looks only interested in Nintendo properties and sports titles.

[Lantyssa]

And if the third party devs aren't doing well on Wii... they'll end up developing for other platforms.  So they get the love, too.

With casuals getting more exposure, some are going to get hooked and turn into more active gamers.  They'll look for experiences elsewhere, while Nintendo brings in yet more players.  Maybe it'll turn into a gateway system, or just continue being a casual family console.  It isn't going to kill the industry and can only bring more people into the fold, so I still don't see any threat.

[Yegolev]

It's just a fear, not a real threat.  I've played some great PC games lately, particularly GalCivII, and I've played many "casual" PC games such as Puzzle Quest, Peggle and Sam + Max.  I have to blame the lack of any ZOMG MUST BUYS IT ME PRECIOUSSSS games for the PC on the PC devs... or what's left of them.  Dollar-chasing Bioware has abandoned the PC and given us Jade "Brian Doyle-Murray Is Not Chinese" Empire and Mass "Fucked-up Inventory" Effect, next we will get Dragon "Maybe Not Jade Empire 2" Age.  I should not have to rehash Bethesda's path to televisions.  In the end, though, it doesn't really hurt PC gaming too much since there's less quantity but more quality.  Meanwhile, the Wii's library is 95% garbage.

[Ingmar]

The fear, from my perspective at least, is that publishers throwing their budgets at "casual" games will reduce funding for games that I like.  Games I like are expensive to make... no, not always, but generally they cost more to develop than the stuff you see for the Wii.  This fear is already manifest in the descent of The Elder Scrolls from one of the most amazing PC RPGs into a console eye-candy kiddie toy; this fear of the Wii by PS3/360 fans is a rebranded fear of consoles by PC fans.

This is highly arguable (the part where the Elder Scrolls games were ever anything like 'amazing'.)

Daggerfall was buggy as all get out.
Morrowind had brain dead 'leave a book on your space bar' skill advancement and one dimensional click click click combat, without any of the other virtues that make that ok in, say, Diablo.
Oblivion was just a shinier Morrowind with famous voice actors.

All the sandbox-y non-linearity in the world won't make up for rampant bugginess or bad gameplay mechanics.

Granted, I never played Arena, so maybe that one was the amazing RPG of which you speak.

[Sky]

Daggerfall may have been buggy, but it was still an amazing game. Yes, gameplay and sandboxy non-linearness does make up for bugginess. See also: Vampire Bloodlines.

Morrowind and Oblivion just sucked. Because they were made for consoles.

[Ingmar]

See also: Vampire Bloodlines.

I think of Troika as more of a company of 'almosts' than successes. Arcanum is as close as they got to a really good game - replaying it right now, actually. (I would sure love to see a remake or a sequel of that game, with all the edges smoothed out.)

[Yegolev]

Daggerfall was indeed buggy, but great despite that.  YMMV and whatnot.  Maybe I can use Thief as an example, but the problem is that LGS is gone while Bethesda is still making shit... also Deadly Shadows wasn't done by LGS.

[HaemishM]

Maybe I can use Thief as an example, but the problem is that LGS is gone while Bethesda is still making shit... also Deadly Shadows wasn't done by LGS.

And boy did it show. That game hurt me, though not as much as Deus Ex: Invisible War.

[Fabricated]

Maybe I can use Thief as an example, but the problem is that LGS is gone while Bethesda is still making shit... also Deadly Shadows wasn't done by LGS.

And boy did it show. That game hurt me, though not as much as Deus Ex: Invisible War.

It felt like Thief...just with shitty performance and constant loading due to the tiny levels. There's quality there if you look for it (i.e. The Cradle)...Deus Ex 2...absolutely none. Not even the dance party ending.

[Yegolev]

I can't come up with a good example, which lends to the idea that my fears are unsubstantiated.  Thief DS did feel like Thief, just the damn city hub ruined it.  The interface didn't even bother me.  I daresay they should make another and use Assassin's Creed as a model for the city hub... of just leave out the fucking thing.  Thief 1 and 2 had cool-ass movies instead of a crappy, useless hub in between missions.  However, other than missing rope arrows, the T3 missions were fairly accurate.

[Selby]

Morrowind and Oblivion just sucked.

Agreed.  Everyone points to those two games as great examples of RPG\whatnot and all I can say is... not.  They just weren't my cup of tea.  The last honest game I bought for the PC that I felt was greatness was Might and Magic VIII back in 2000 (Diablo II was out a month or so later, but I didn't get into it that much when it came out due to some boneheaded Blizzard patch decisions).  I have bought one game since then that didn't suck and entertained me (Divine Divinity despite being buggy and goofily translated was some good fun).  Ever since then I've been disappointed with what I buy to the point where I just don't buy anymore.

[Strazos]

I think of Troika as more of a company of 'almosts' than successes. Arcanum is as close as they got to a really good game - replaying it right now, actually. (I would sure love to see a remake or a sequel of that game, with all the edges smoothed out.)

Arcanum was an unbalanced load of crap. I really wanted to like the game, but holy hell...I got to the point where I somehow gimped my character, and wasn't able to continue with the game. I tried to make a hybrid, so I'd get trounced by pure mages or pure techers.

That may have been the only game I have ever gimped myself in....that's quite a feat.

Also, Haemish, did you mean DX2?


And...throw in my vote for the "I have never liked anything by Bethesda" camp. My friend loves Oblivion. I've watched him play, and you can do some neat stuff, but...I could never get into it.

[Rasix]

Morrowind and Oblivion amused me.  I played each for a significant amount of time pouring in long play sessions that never got near the main plot.  I like playing thief characters in each. Oblivion did a better job at keeping interested in the main plot, and I actually finished it, which I never got close to (or had any interest) in Morrowind. Plus, it had Patrick Stewart and Boromir.

I don't hold them up on pedestals like Fallout or vilify them like the previous mentioned Arcanum (which was a shitty game that looked shitty).   If I could seriously fault either for one specific thing is how they punished my typical middle of the road system for no apparent reason.

I got a Wii.  Mainly to play games with people that don't play games and my 360 library is devoid of things to play with other human beings.  Plus non gamers are afraid of that controller. Any games I get for it are a bonus.  The occasional No More Heroes will be welcomed with open arms.  I'm kind of sick of Nintendo franchises, however. 

[HaemishM]

Also, Haemish, did you mean DX2?

DX2 was never called Deus Ex 2. It was always called Deus Ex: Invisible War. And it sucked most mightily.

[Lantyssa]

I only had one little quip with the story line, but having finally played it recently, I found I rather enjoyed Deus Ex 2.

[schild]

I'm gone for like 4 days. This thread gets like 50 posts, and no one mentioned Dead Rising for the Wii.

Nintendo can die in a mall fire.

[Margalis]

Yeah, it sure sucks when a company ports a game and in so doing fixes significant problems with the original. Grab yer pitchforks!

[schild]

What? The original had too many zombies and a photo mode with a full scoring system? Can't wait for them to fix it.

[Ingmar]

I think of Troika as more of a company of 'almosts' than successes. Arcanum is as close as they got to a really good game - replaying it right now, actually. (I would sure love to see a remake or a sequel of that game, with all the edges smoothed out.)

Arcanum was an unbalanced load of crap. I really wanted to like the game, but holy hell...I got to the point where I somehow gimped my character, and wasn't able to continue with the game. I tried to make a hybrid, so I'd get trounced by pure mages or pure techers.

Those were the kind of edges I was talking about smoothing. 

Please take my comment in the context of the games it is being compared to - their other ones. Has there ever been a western RPG with worse dialogue writing than TOEE?

[schild]

Has there ever been a western RPG with worse dialogue writing than TOEE?

Don't make me answer that.

[Margalis]

What? The original had too many zombies and a photo mode with a full scoring system? Can't wait for them to fix it.

The saving/restarting system and timed escort missions were a major issue for people, and that is getting changed. Fewer zombies does suck but photo mode is a big who cares.

It looks like the Wii version is going to be a somewhat different game overall, which is cool.

[schild]

Photo mode is a big who cares!?

[Big Gulp]

Photo mode is a big who cares!?

For me it was.  And I also never finished the game because of the retarded save system/annoying escort missions.  Oh, and the RESPAWNING PARK PRISONERS IN THE HUMVEE.  Isn't it enough that I killed these assholes once, already?

Dead Rising is the definition of great concept, shitty execution.  It's also a great example of Japanese people not understanding western play styles.

[Margalis]

If you read something like Gamefaqs reviews a lot of people have problems with the save system. I understand why some people like it but among the gaming population as a whole it seems like a loser.

I'm in the boat of people who think the idea of using wacky weapons to off zombies sounds great but I have little interest in Dead Rising thanks to the way the game is structured.

[Rasix]

I speak as one person that loved just about every inch of Dead Rising; the photos were no big deal for me and my most common reaction to the photographer guy was just just ignore him. 

Timed getting to people (once you got to them, the timer didn't matter) just added to the sense of being in a zombie apocalypse. Not everyone is going to be saved, not everyone can be saved.  You have to make some tough decisions.  I just counted survivor deaths as part of the game.  However, more time should have likely been afforded as saving everyone should at least seem remotely possible given that you're not just dealing with the individual rescue timers.

Now, the time sensitive nature of the main plot butting up against survivor rescue was a bit more annoying.  The game failing to adjust because you were late to your 6am main plotline play date leaving you 1 hour to finish a major plot arc was stupid.  So was having to ditch 5 survivors in a crowded theatre for the same reasons. 

Game could have been executed a lot better (the main plot was a hindrance), but it's still probably one of the top reasons I'm glad I got a 360.

[Soln]

[Azazel]

The game is fun to fuck around in for a bit of time here and there, but theres a reason it was one of the first titles I bought and I still never got anywhere near finishing. My best effort before losing interest was somewhere in the middle of Act 1.

Now you tell me those douchebags in the Jeep infinitely respawn? Fuck that noise.

[Slyfeind]

And if the third party devs aren't doing well on Wii... they'll end up developing for other platforms.  So they get the love, too.

With casuals getting more exposure, some are going to get hooked and turn into more active gamers.  They'll look for experiences elsewhere, while Nintendo brings in yet more players.  Maybe it'll turn into a gateway system, or just continue being a casual family console.  It isn't going to kill the industry and can only bring more people into the fold, so I still don't see any threat.

That's a great idea, and it's time for these "more active gamer" games, like, now. There's not enough development being put into them, and that's part of the frustration. Some people will be happy with Wii Sports forever. Some will just straight into Team Fortress 2. And some are looking for something in-between...and these people aren't being served.

[Merusk]

Some of us have, like, jobs and shit and are doing just fine with Mario Galaxy, Zelda, Smash Bros and Lego right now because we haven't finished those damn things.

fucking kids with your expendable free time!

[schild]

And if the third party devs aren't doing well on Wii... they'll end up developing for other platforms.  So they get the love, too.

With casuals getting more exposure, some are going to get hooked and turn into more active gamers.  They'll look for experiences elsewhere, while Nintendo brings in yet more players.  Maybe it'll turn into a gateway system, or just continue being a casual family console.  It isn't going to kill the industry and can only bring more people into the fold, so I still don't see any threat.

That's a great idea, and it's time for these "more active gamer" games, like, now. There's not enough development being put into them, and that's part of the frustration. Some people will be happy with Wii Sports forever. Some will just straight into Team Fortress 2. And some are looking for something in-between...and these people aren't being served.

The people inbetween aren't getting served because the gaming press and PR machine doesn't know how to target those players. I could ramble off 50 games that could easily entertain the tweens in terms of gaming maturity. This may or may not include portable games like Summon Night, Console games from Gust, or XBLA and PSN games that don't treat you like a gibbering fool.

[Velorath]

Oh, and the RESPAWNING PARK PRISONERS IN THE HUMVEE.  Isn't it enough that I killed these assholes once, already?

Use the fucking shortcut they show you fairly early on in the game.  There's no reason to even go back to that part of the park after that.

[Fabricated]

So my brother really really really wants Mario Kart for the Wii, but despite its amazing mediocrity it is completely sold out everywhere forever I guess. My dumbshit friend who works at Best Buy decided to call my brother and let him know that they got some in today. 4 copies, and no in-store pickup so I can just buy the shit on the phone or online and get it later. My brother calls me (Note: I live in Indiana, my brother is currently in California) and matter of factly tells me to go buy it. Sorry Charlie, I just pulled in the fucking driveway after getting off work, you get to live without your shitty game.

I hung up.