WAR to be released...

[Montague]

Wow, the choppa went from being OP to cut. That's quite a change.

That's the unfortunate victim of this. The one fun melee DPS class getting axed because they couldn't figure out how to make the others worthwhile. Hammerer especially. Oh well.

KOTBS was even more lame. An iconic knight class standing in the back twisting buffs?  

[Lakov_Sanite]

Well it's the difference between making money and making a fuckton of money.

WAR will be profitable, no doubt and I'm sure AoC will be as well. The market for MMO's is big enough right now that as long as you don't make something that punches players in the dick you should come out on top financially.

I think sports games are a bit of a red herring when it comes to games because they are their own market, much like MMO. People who play sports games may very well not even play any other type, as well as they NEED to buy the game regardless of how rushed it is because well that is This years edition of their favorite sport.

Most other game genres though show time and again that the more finished product wins, not just wow but all blizzard games have made ungodly amounts of money and there's a reason. Other game companies as well that deliver solid product get solid results. I really think the problem in retrospect is not that the publishers(ea,funcom) don't understand that time spent = $$ it's that they don't care. Pushing an MMO out the door half finished will still make them a profit while if they were to give it another year and more money there is no guarentee the game will be big enough to cover that investment.  No one wants to gamble on another game hitting 10mil subs so the kind of time and money that would be needed to take a game even close to that is not being spent.

In short, pussies.

[sam, an eggplant]

On the contrary, EA has treated WAR quite well. Their beta test has been under a strict NDA unlike Blizzard's, but it's been ongoing for a long time. They've been given tons of time to iterate and polish. As far as anyone from the outside looking in can tell, EA is not the bad guy here-- if WAR fails, it's Mythic's fault.

[Morfiend]

Kotaku is reporting that Guild Beta has started.

[Draegan]

Their beta process is pretty good.  Focus on gameplay-X, take down beta, Focus on gameplay-Y, take down beta.  Then they cycle through everything.

They do a pretty good job.

They do have a lot of classes though.  Too many imo.

[Morfiend]

My friend brought up a good point. Basically if you want to play melee DPS now, you only have one option per realm. Thats pretty weak.

[photek]

My friend brought up a good point. Basically if you want to play melee DPS now, you only have one option per realm. Thats pretty weak.

Very much untrue. Anyhow 

[cevik]

Well it's the difference between making money and making a fuckton of money.

This is what I was trying to come up with a way of saying above, but just couldn't find the words.  This is the difference between the 10 million subscriber WoW killer that WAR looked like it had the potential to be, and the 700k subscriber very profitable but not quite capable of competing with the big guy niche game.

To me it's more indicative of the scope that Mythic thinks they are capable of achieving.  Perhaps this is a sign that Mythic has decided that in order to avoid being a Duke Nukem Forever of the mmog world, they just needed to take a step back and reduce the scope of what they wanted to achieve.  

Any way you cut it, I just can't see how cutting 2/3rds of the "Living, Breathing Capital Cities" for launch is a good sign for the players.  This looks like it will likely be a massive cut in content.  Probably because they couldn't polish the content, so I understand the motive, I just don't think it's a good sign for the game.

[photek]

Well it's the difference between making money and making a fuckton of money.

Any way you cut it, I just can't see how cutting 2/3rds of the "Living, Breathing Capital Cities" for launch is a good sign for the players.  This looks like it will likely be a massive cut in content.  Probably because they couldn't polish the content, so I understand the motive, I just don't think it's a good sign for the game.

I highly doubt it is cut permanently. I think it will be implemented through future patches as content and labeled complete and playable. Also looking at it objectively it could be a positive thing as you will have more players in the zone of the two existing cities and upon implementation of new cities players will move over to them and make sure all content will actually be played.

[sam, an eggplant]

If you remember that capturing the opposite faction's cities is actually the RvR endgame, it's quite plausible that they'll be patched in at some point, sure. From a PvE perspective they're entirely unnecessary.

[cevik]

I highly doubt it is cut permanently. I think it will be implemented through future patches as content and labeled complete and playable. Also looking at it objectively it could be a positive thing as you will have more players in the zone of the two existing cities and upon implementation of new cities players will move over to them and make sure all content will actually be played.

Altaholics start playing on day one too, and to be honest, I think they are typically are a pretty big chunk of the player base (I'd suspect a majority in wow?  I know a lot more people switching between alts than I do people like me who pretty much stick with one character, perhaps it's just the people I'm exposed to, I don't know).  WoW was great for people who did that because they had 2 realms, 6 cities and 8 races to pick from.  Even if most people stuck to one realm the content between level 1 and about 30 was so varied that you could just keep making alts for quite some time without repeating content.  At about level 30 everyone got funneled together and the content repeated, but that is typically where people start to play up one character to max, at least from what I've seen.

I think Mythic is cutting out a large chunk of it's potential player base with this move.  I can't wait to be proven wrong, I've had two copies of the CE pre-ordered for a long time now, and this is my most "highly anticipated game of the decade", but I suspect we'll be revisiting this all about a month after release in the "What went wrong?" thread..

Of course I've been wrong before, we'll see.

EDIT:  I'm not in the beta, so maybe I'm wrong and they are going to have awesome well thought out polished and perfectly scripted leveling areas for all the races without using capital cities to do it.  I'm just suspicious that if they don't have the resources to make the capital cities work, that it means everyone is getting funneled into the same path at a very early part of the game.  Every other mmog I've ever played funneled you into the capital cities immediately after the newbie zones and those ended up being your main hub for quite some time.

[Lakov_Sanite]

If I had to go through tortage one more time i would gouge my eyes out....wait wrong game....or is it?


It took me three classes in wow to find one I liked and stuck with, if I had the same starting experience each time i would have burned out. Same goes for original EQ, even though it was a grindfest playing a dark elf was vastly different from playing a halfling in the starter areas, if only because of the scenery.

What people are trying to say is that adding these cities in later and level up, mid-game or end-game quest hubs is not the same as having a 'hometown' heck even if you live up in the tree and half the wood elves kill themselves, or in the undercity where the elevator has claimed your life at least once there is a certain pride many take in saying this is their home turf and having one giant starter city doesn't do it. When EQ2 came out and there was just freeport and qeynos? i hated it with a passion as did many other i know.

I'd almost say it's immersion breaking to say things like "ok you're all refugees and you start 'here' " it takes a lot of excitement and wonder out of the world and just makes things feel so much smaller.

[Nija]

The 20 or 24 classes of WAR aren't really 20 or 24 classes in wow. There is a LOT of skill overlap and you'll see stuff where healer X gets spell A and level 5, when healer Y gets a spell that does the same thing as A, but at level 15.

There are only so many things you can do with diku style skill bars. There won't be 20 different classes to learn, there will be about 40 instances of, "oh, that class gets that ability too. Damn, noted" as you're waiting for the respawn timer to kick in.

[Morfiend]

What it sounds like they are saying with "the cityies will be quest hubs" is that the content is still there, but the major city functions arent, like the RVR capture part. Or at least thats what I hope its saying.

[squirrel]

Well it's the difference between making money and making a fuckton of money.

This is what I was trying to come up with a way of saying above, but just couldn't find the words.  This is the difference between the 10 million subscriber WoW killer that WAR looked like it had the potential to be, and the 700k subscriber very profitable but not quite capable of competing with the big guy niche game.

Personally I never believed - nor do I now - that WAR had the potential to be a 10 million sub game. No way. It will be a big MMORPG relative to every other title, but like the rest it will remain dwarfed by WoW until Blizzards Next Big Thing ships. At which point that will be the giant. WoW is an anomaly due to a variety of factors. No other title will touch it for a very long time. As always, I could be wrong.

[Soukyan]

WAR will not reach the level of subscriptions of WoW. Yes, there are a lot of Warhammer fans out there, but they are not necessarily MMOGamers. Blizzard had a large following of gamers who bought WoW and then brought friends. Then there was more word of mouth, big newspaper write-ups, etc. and so on and so forth. Quality, yes, but a market blast to be sure.

Not sure where I was going there other than stating the obvious. Regarding the cutting of classes, they should cut about 8 more. I think even 12 would be too many if there are only two factions, but suppose it's doable. 8-10 classes ( with replication for each faction) is probably what is inflating that number. With WoW, there is crossover, With WAR, it sounds like there is crossover of classes for each faction, but in Mythic fashion, they decided to give those classes different names for each faction and possibly a few minor differences. In any case, it's a MMOG. Should be fun to try out. Here's hoping to getting to test it for free. I'm getting stingy in my old age. Are they doing an open beta?

[Morfiend]

Not sure where I was going there other than stating the obvious. Regarding the cutting of classes, they should cut about 8 more. I think even 12 would be too many if there are only two factions, but suppose it's doable. 8-10 classes ( with replication for each faction)

Right now there are 10 for each side. Was 12 each before the recent cut.

[tazelbain]

The hysterics on Slashdot are pretty funny.  They are going bonkers of the fact that the end-game has been trimed from 6 cities to 2 cities for launch.  I hope they never find out about AoC.  A game with semi-functioning end-game 7 weeks after release should kill them.

[Riggswolfe]

My friend brought up a good point. Basically if you want to play melee DPS now, you only have one option per realm. Thats pretty weak.

Very much untrue. Anyhow 

Without any NDA antics I can tell you from their website, from previews on gaming sites and interviews that this is not true. There are two MDPS classes in each faction. Look at the "armies" on the main WAR website to find them in Empire and Elves for Order and Dark Elf and Chaos for Destruction.

[Ingmar]

How the fuck is it Warhammer without Orc Choppas and Dwarf Hammerers? About the only thing that would hurt my inner fanboy more than losing the hammerer would be losing witch hunters.

WAR is gonna suck, isn't it.

[photek]

How the fuck is it Warhammer without Orc Choppas and Dwarf Hammerers?

Choppa removal stunned me too, it was on my to-roll list on release. Hammerer not so much, they didn't go with Slayer and Hammerer just seemed like a cheap second thrill compared to it.

[Morfiend]

How the fuck is it Warhammer without Orc Choppas and Dwarf Hammerers?

Choppa removal stunned me too, it was on my to-roll list on release. Hammerer not so much, they didn't go with Slayer and Hammerer just seemed like a cheap second thrill compared to it.

I know quite a few people who are very very angry about the Choppa removal. I was never really a fan of Greenskins or Dwarves, so it doesnt so much matter to me.

[photek]

Also looking at the class vote over at Warhammer Alliance Choppa is a very popular class, however the removal should be perfectly understandable for anyone in the beta. I'm a sucker for Greenskins, but for me its all about the ELVSES. The High ones.

[Simond]

There's not exactly a shortage of MMOs where you can play elves, though.

[Talonus]

This situation seems oddly reminiscent of DAoC's release; at release much of Hibernia's art assets had yet to be finished and several classes needed major retooling or entire redesigns. It seems they've taken a different path this time with deciding to cut the content entirely, which is probably a better long term decision but is getting them a ton of flack right now. It's probably not a bad thing for them to complain now either, better now than at release.

The removal of the Choppa is definitely disappointing though.

[photek]

There's not exactly a shortage of MMOs where you can play elves, though.

There is a massive shortage of MMOs where elves actually are cool.

[Lakov_Sanite]

There's not exactly a shortage of MMOs where you can play elves, though.

There is a massive shortage of MMOs where elves actually are cool.

This statement seems to assume that elves can, in some way...be cool. Sorry, not even in an alternate universe.

[photek]

As cool as it gets.

[Nija]

Furry.

[sam, an eggplant]

There are two MDPS classes in each faction.

Well kinda sorta but not really. You're probably confusing the tank classes, which can spec for damage, with straight up melee damage classes. There's a fair amount of crossover based upon specialization; you'll probably be surprised to see the archmage considered a healing class, or a shadow warrior counted as ranged DPS. I think the way they figure it is that if you can tank or heal, you're a tank or a healer. If you can't tank/heal but can do significant ranged damage, you're ranged DPS. If none of the above, melee dps. The current distribution is:

Tanks: black orc, iron breaker, chosen, swordmaster
Melee DPS: marauder, witch elf, witch hunter, white lion
Ranged DPS: engineer, squig herder, magus, bright wizard, sorcerer, shadow warrior
Healer: shaman, runepriest, zealot, warrior priest, disciple, archmage

See how a lot of these classes sound identical? Witch elf/witch hunter, swordmaster/shadow warrior/warrior priest/runepriest, etc. Too many damn classes.

[Fordel]

Too many damn classes is a virtual Mythic Cliche at this point. Is cliche even the word I'm looking for?

[Simond]

As cool as it gets.

So if I log on my blood elf hunter and go tame Echeyakee I'll be as cool as it gets as well? 

[Morfiend]

There's not exactly a shortage of MMOs where you can play elves, though.

There is a massive shortage of MMOs where elves actually are cool.

Thats cause it isn't possible.

[MarkJacobs]

This situation seems oddly reminiscent of DAoC's release; at release much of Hibernia's art assets had yet to be finished and several classes needed major retooling or entire redesigns. It seems they've taken a different path this time with deciding to cut the content entirely, which is probably a better long term decision but is getting them a ton of flack right now. It's probably not a bad thing for them to complain now either, better now than at release.

The removal of the Choppa is definitely disappointing though.

I agree with everything you've said above.

Mark

[Count Nerfedalot]

Hard as it sounds like it was to make those cuts, they seem like wise moves to me.  There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth about both DAoC's unfinished Hibernia faction and AoC's bait-and-switch difference in polish between the 1-20 experience and the post 20 game. 

A game that launches with a complete but limited set of content that you can play through from beginning to end, but with limited replayability will generate a lot more positive buzz than a game with lots and lots of mediocre/incomplete content.  And while you may lose some subscriptions when people run out of content if they don't like what you have for the end-game, they won't be out there telling their friends to avoid the game at all costs and swearing to never buy anything from that publisher again.

Folks who leave a game having had a good time and feeling they got their money's worth and are just sad they ran out of things to do will be favorably inclined to come back later once there IS more stuff to do.  Folks who leave because they were frustrated as heck at all the broken crap they kept running into and ran out of patience at the slow rate of improvement will be bitter and far less inclined to give you another chance.  First impressions and all that really DO matter!